Talk:Use of human faeces in traditional medicine

This document should be deleted.

This is a culture that Japanese nationalists often forcibly created to disparage Korea. There is no such culture in Korea. This is a copy of an old Chinese herbal medicine book, and it is an exaggeration to say that it existed in Korea.

This is a sentence that VICE JAPAN intentionally created in Japan in 2013, and it is a sentence that Japanese people still use to disparage Korea. Is it right to see this as culture? No. It is right to see it as just a rumor created by Japanese people. Truthmale1 (talk) 06:09, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

I've been conflicted with this article. I'm not quite sure how real the phenomenon is; needs more research.

I am mindful of the fact that some Japanese nationalists gleefully talk about it as a an anti-Korean talking point, but that doesn't eliminate the possibility of history being there and happening to be unflattering. I do think we should give appropriate WP:WEIGHT to how prominent this practice was once we do; I suspect the practice was rare if real seefooddiet (talk) 08:10, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

This is nothing more or less than something that was intentionally created in Japan to denigrate Korea. Currently, this tongju is widely used as one of the representative anti-Korean materials. The origin of its use as an anti-Korean material began with a meme called 'Tonsuru (トンスル)' in Japan, and without the knowledge of the Koreans involved, right-wing anti-Koreans on the net said that it was "a type of alcoholic beverage consumed by the public in Korea." In this way, it is used to disparage Korea.

If you go to a Korean online forum and search for 똥술, there is no culture that comes up. It is no exaggeration to say that this is a culture that was actually first created by VICE JAPAN. The previous books were just Chinese herbal medicine books, and this was also in Japan

(It appears in volume 3 of the sequel to Yongyaksuji compiled during the Edo period. They emptied the bamboo and filled it with licorice, sealed the entrance with wood, placed it in the toilet, allowed the feces to seep into the licorice, and then ate the contents) Truthmale1 (talk) 16:45, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

See There were books like this in Japan too

https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E4%BA%BA%E4%B8%AD%E9%BB%84

Do you pronounce this in Japanese(Jin-chi-yuuou)? No

It's a treatment from the past that started from the same Chinese herbal medicine book. It's no exaggeration to say that this type of treatment existed in all regions in the past when medical development was lacking.

But this is just the intention of the Japanese to disparage Koreans as a people who eat shit, as if this only happened in Korea. So the Japanese call it ttongsul in the Korean pronunciation and spread it around.

It would be better to just add it to the document on medicinal herbs using poop and write a few lines for Korea/Japan/China as an example of East Asia Truthmale1 (talk) 16:53, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

The phenomenon also being attested to in Chinese/Japanese texts does not necessarily eliminate notability for Korea. Also be mindful of how you present this information; reads like a whataboutism. You also need to refer to reliable sources for your claims; avoid analyzing the situation on your own per WP:OR.

I think given the uncertainty around the significance of this practice in Korea, may possibly pass a deletion discussion. Within a few days I'll research this topic and start one if appropriate. seefooddiet (talk) 17:30, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Yes, please. I think that the very existence of this document as a separate entity is tantamount to condoning hate Truthmale1 (talk) 17:52, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Again, be mindful of how you present this. Hate is not appropriate grounds for deletion. WP:Wikipedia is not censored. We have articles like nigger, and sometimes real historical things are unpleasant. What matters is research to determine how real this thing was; you provided only your own analysis and examination of forums. If you do participate in the deletion discussion, be prepared to bring actual reliable evidence. seefooddiet (talk) 18:00, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I'm ready. If it's okay, I'd like to upload it in advance. But I'll wait until the deletion discussion is open. Truthmale1 (talk) 18:07, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Might need a in-depth discussion on the topic, especially whether its a "traditional Korean" preparation or something that has existed as a folk remedy seen across various cultures ([1], Traditional Chinese medicines derived from the human body). Many sources on the topic (including the one from the disgusting food museum) seem to cite the VICE Japan video from 2013, which has been criticized by several Korean sources: [2], [3], [4].

The article itself seems like it was translated from the jawiki(which does seem to hold a reputation for having an anti-Korean bias on some topics) by a good-faith user. Unsure whether the article itself meets WP:GNG. If we had an article about the use of human feces as medicine a merge would've been appropriate, but I believe we don't have one yet. -- 00101984hjw (talk) 04:32, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 11 December 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Bobby Cohn (talk) 21:30, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

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Ttongsul → Use of human feces in medicine – See talk thread above: Talk:Ttongsul#This document should be deleted for context. Edit: actually retarget to Use of human faeces in traditional medicine, per below discussion.

I'm not attached to the target title btw; feel free to propose another.

I've done more reading, and I've become increasingly confident that this was a real phenomenon (likely rare) that comes from Chinese medicine. Chinese medicine has even stranger phenomena, so this article isn't so preposterous.

Making this article solely about the phenomenon in Korea doesn't really make sense; the current article's scope is mostly either about the phenomenon as a whole or its origins in China. There are a few brief mentions of attestations to it in Korea, but that's not enough for this scope to be appropriate.

This article was based on the Japanese Wikipedia version. However, the Japanese Wikipedia has had problems with basically overt racism and far right theories being promoted and unchallenged for many years. This is not just my opinion, it is widely shared even on the jawiki; they have been struggling to manage their extremists.

If this move passes, poke me and I'll go ahead and rescope this article to be about the broad phenomenon. seefooddiet (talk) 21:19, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

@Truthmale1 @00101984hjw tagging users from talk thread above seefooddiet (talk) 21:20, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Support but under the assumption that this article will be instantly updated in content to cover its newly expanded scope upon renaming. 00101984hjw (talk) 22:17, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Yep this one I'm confident I can deal with quickly. seefooddiet (talk) 22:43, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose: This article is about pseudoscience, not science-based medicine. This move would imply that the use of human feces in medicine is synonymous with this unscientific concoction. But that is incorrect when considering Fecal microbiota transplant. Use of human feces in medicine should redirect to Fecal microbiota transplant. An alternative like Traditional medicine based on human faeces could be worth considering. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 23:24, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

You're right; I'd support the latter of your proposals seefooddiet (talk) 01:48, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

@00101984hjw would you support Traditional medicine based on human feces? Matching the spelling of "human feces". seefooddiet (talk) 04:28, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

I think Use of human feces in traditional medicine might make a better title (sounds more concise imo), but yes, @BarrelProof's proposal seems like a much better choice than the original proposal. 00101984hjw (talk) 04:51, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

I agree. BarrelProof are you ok with 00101984hjw's proposal? seefooddiet (talk) 05:06, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Yes, that's fine with me. I only spelled it that way because it's spelled that way in most places in this article. In the current article, I find 12 instances of 'faeces' and 2 of 'feces'. That count does not include the titles of the cited sources. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 06:51, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

I'll adjust the sp to "feces" when page is moved seefooddiet (talk) 10:15, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

I note that "faeces" is the British spelling and the article primarily uses that spelling. I now also notice the article is also primarily using the British date format, and uses Celsius rather than Fahrenheit for temperature. So it could be a WP:ENGVAR issue. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 11:04, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Ah fair enough; let's do Use of human faeces in traditional medicine. seefooddiet (talk) 11:33, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Rewrote

@00101984hjw Per above move discussion, I rescoped the page to be more general and less about ttongsul and Korea specifically.

The previous version of the article overweighted discussions of Korea (probably artifact of translating jawiki content) and it had some unsourced WP:OR especially in the lead.

My largest problem with it was its use of sources of varying quality. Lot of pop culture and non-specialist articles by journalists. Most of the articles had a lot of unsourced hearsay that was being repeated on the article as settled fact. My rewrite begrudgingly relies on a subset of those articles and still has similar problems, but to a lesser extent. I just figured it's better to say less in these scenarios, which is why my rewrite is sparser.

I deleted the image of the recreation of the drink (a joyous brownish clear liquid). I've seen several descriptions that described varying colors for the drink. Unless there's a source that confirms that's an adequate representation, again I think we should say less. seefooddiet (talk) 09:05, 19 December 2024 (UTC)