Talk:Upper Peninsula of Michigan/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Old Talk

Is there a high speed internet connection there? --LMS

Charter Communications has some customers up there, and the unversities would have some access... but generally, no. Why do you ask, Larry? -- trimalchio

I have confirmed that Charter Comm offers high speed cable internet in Marquette, Michigan which is the home of Northern Michigan University. -t

Because I'm looking for places to live (I can live anywhere, more or less) and wondering if the U.P. should be on the list! --LMS

The UP is absolutely gorgeous. I went to school in Detroit and often visited in the UP. If I could live anywhere, that'd be among the choices, although the winters can be brutal.David de Paoli

High speed access is available in most of the largest towns (Marquette and area, Houghton, Sault Ste. Marie). Anywhere that you can get cable (most places that aren't truly in the middle of nowhere), you can get reasonably high speed access. -- dcclark

Even living out in some of the 'way out there' spots, you can find some high speed connections. DSL was introduced in Brimley (SW of Sault Ste Marie, lived there a while ago) a few years back... still nearly impossible to get cable out there though. --Astinus 08:07, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

• DSL is spreading, you can get it in most of Marquette county, where NMU is located. I have it in Ishpeming. The U.P. is not completely lacking in technology, like many of you are making it sound. In fact, NMU is the first university in MI to establish a laptop program which provides a laptop to every full time student (included in tuition, not the greatest computer deal financially, but there are many pros). The whole campus and parts of the city of Marquette have high speed wireless access. If you are looking for a place to live and need the best of modern technology, the U.P. isn't the best place. It's here, but limited. There's just one cable company, one DSL provider (SBC) and two cellular phone service providers (Cellone and Altell) with limited reception because of the density of the population equals lack of towers.

I live in the Upper Peninsula (in Escanaba, to be specific), and there's a Charter office in town here. We have their high speed cable connection. And about the lack of cellular towers in the Upper Peninsula, this causes some things to be unavailable, such as the iPhone (which I believe runs of off Verizon). The Umbrella Corporation (talk) 20:42, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

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Added mention of discovery of gold deposits in U.P. --Daniel C. Boyer

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I seem to remember learning in my ninth grade health class that there is an illegal drug called methcathinone (or something similar) that is used virtually exclusively in the UP, and that use is epidemic there. Does anybody know if this is/was true? Tokerboy 04:21 Nov 24, 2002 (UTC)

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Yes and no; this was invented in Marquette, in the dorms of Northern Michigan University, and was (somewhat) popular some years ago but use has dramatically fallen off since the mid-1990s. I wouldn't call it really endemic even at its height and it its use is pretty rare now. --Daniel C. Boyer

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"More realistically, there is a strong movement in the Upper Peninsula for secession..." More realistically than what? - Molinari 01:25 2 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Than independance from the US, presumably. Is secession from Michigan or independence from the US the only options discussed? What about simply transferring from Michigan to Wisconsin? Being part of Wisconsin seems geographically and, from what the article says, culturally more sensible than being part of Michigan Nik42 06:35, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)

There is little interest in becoming part of Wisconsin. If it were part of Wisconsin, the U.P would again be overshadowed by more populous regions to the south (which is a big part of the motivation for secession). The only movement going on is to become a separate state. (I'm not sure I'd call it a "strong" movement, however--the state government in Lansing has barely noticed it.) Funnyhat

Indeed, I think there is relatively little popular support for serious consideration of secession from Michigan. I suspect such references are generally made with humorous intent, or as an overly dramatic expression of disgruntlement. older≠wiser 13:45, Feb 26, 2005 (UTC)

I agree, I know of no serious secession movement. It is discussed as a joke or as note of pride, but not as an actuall movement. I think that section should be changed to reflect that it is discussion only and not part of any real movement. 128.97.3.167 23:25, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Primarily talk of secession is in a song by the musical group, Da Yoppers, on the album Culture Shock, the song Dear Mr. Governor. "Blow up the Mighty Mackinac and secede from da' union." Cant find the words online anywhere, will have to re-listen to it and get the specific choice phrases. Ya, eh! User:Kittiarra —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.40.218.92 (talk) 02:24, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Moving to the U.P.

Unless you like bitter cold temperatures in the winter and virtually no warm weather in the summer, I would not recommend moving here to the U.P. We do not have many fast food restaurants, modern shopping centers or big city entertainment.

• That last statement sounds like an endorsement to me. :) Tverbeek 03:04, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

• Don't forget the mosquitoes! Funnyhat 03:31, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

• For the love of Christ, don't move to the UP. Sure, summer is gorgeous, but before then you have to live through about 8 months of biting cold and constant snowstorms. Oh, and there's just about *nothing* to do in the winter, once you run out of movies. Fang Aili 23:20, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

Well the snow is mostly heavy in the inland of the Keweenaw. It might be a little warmer than Minnesota in the winter. And it's only five months of misery, not eight! Besides, there are a lot of fun things to do there through that time of year. Unless you only like modern shopping centers and big city entertainment ;) . Saying there is 'virtually no warm weather' doesn't make sense really. Even the cooler areas have had over 20 days above 80F this summer so far. Actually it might be a preference to have a summer full of 70-80F days rather the +90F days that are constant in many parts of the country. Peoplesunionpro 18:12, August 14, 2005 (UTC)

If you're interested in any winter sports (skiing of any kind, snowboarding, snowshoeing, snowmobiling, skinny dipping ;), you won't be bored. Summers are beautiful and warm, but only really hot for a week or two. If you're not into the outdoors, and require large malls and big movie theatres, you may want to avoid the UP. Otherwise, it's quite a paradise! —dcclark (talk) 03:40, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

• "Virtually no warm weather"? Sounds like my least favorite kind of Yooper - the faux kind that complain about having the privelege to live in one of the most beautiful places in our country. We have perfect summers. Yes, they take a while to start, but our average not too hot, not to cold temps allow us to get outside and enjoy summer activities instead of sitting in an air conditioned house because it's too hot to go outside. Also, saying there's nothing to do in the winter is just another example of a Yooper who should fly south. If you think there is nothing to do, you must be lazy. Snowmobiling, skiing (the BIRTHPLACE of organized skiing by the way), snowboarding, sledding, snowshoeing, ice fishing, etc., what more could you ask for? If you don't like any of those then why would you live in a place dominated by winter? And actually, you don't HAVE to live in "8 months of biting cold and constant snowstorms," no one is making you. If you can't hack it, leave. I spent hours shovelling 16 inches of snow today with nothing but a smile on my face. The ache in my back makes me proud to be a Yooper. The U.P. is for tough people who love the outdoors and love untouched land. If you don't appreciate that, then stay out because we want to keep it this way.

People, please! Wikipedia is not your internet discussion board. It does not appear that any of this discussion is related to improving the Upper peninsula article. Also, you are not even being civil. MPS 23:34, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Minutes of the Michigan Statehood Conventions

Can we create a new article to put all the information about the details and timelines surrounding Michigan's admittance into the union as a state? I've been trying to trim that paragraph down into something that a person can read through and get a sense of how and why the U.P. became part of Michigan, without getting sidetracked into the minutiae of how it unfolded. I don't think the dates, who convened the convention, the official territorial status of which parcel of land, and how hasty it was is really important to the topic of this article, or to the key point here: that the U.P. was given to Michigan in trade for Toledo. Tverbeek 03:04, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Well, most of it is already in Toledo Strip. Personally, I think it is significant to illustrate the U.P.'s historical relationship with the rest of Michigan -- but then I'm a history nerd. I also would have kept the bit about the middle of the U.P. being unorganized territory for a period that you removed -- that goes to illustrate just how overlooked the U.P. was at the time. I'm really don't see what the problem is with including this information. If reading that is not to your interest, then gloss over it to the next section. older≠wiser 03:16, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)

I'm something of an English Composition nerd, and I don't think someone should skip to the next section because they get lost in a paragraph that wanders around into off-topic information. I'm interested in the subject. I read the whole paragraph. And it was (sorry) weakly written. If there was a point to mentioning the Indiana Territory and the year of its dissolution, I couldn't see it. Likewise the current detail about this convention and that convention. The point of the paragraph - that Michigan's government didn't care about the UP but took it reluctantly in exchange for Toledo - is made clear enough without it. If someone reads a reference to the Toledo War or the transition from territory to statehood, and wants to know more about those topics, that's what the wikilinks are for. Lack of interest is not the issue; to me it's about well organized writing. Tverbeek 13:13, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Hmmm. I know a bit about English Composition. I don't make any great claims to be a stylist, that never really interested me. Accuracy is of primary importance to me. However, accuracy and attention to details are not mutually exclusive of good style. I take issue with your characterization that "I don't think someone should skip to the next section because they get lost in a paragraph that wanders around into off-topic information." In most articles (and not only Wikipedia, but in general) I frequently skip around to catch what interests me and skim over the parts that are of less interest. I really do not think I am unusual in this regard. I don't want to say this is the only way to read, but it is a very common strategy, especially for reference works. The addition of section headers is helpful; however, perhaps the historical background should go into a separate section, rather than getting stuffed into a section on Regional Identity (I'm not even sure what that even means, BTW). The fact that the U.P. was so completely off the scope that Congress didn't even realize that they left the middle portion of the U.P. unorganized when forming the state of Indiana seems a fairly significant detail about the U.P. to me. Similarly, the fact that the state of Michigan essentially formed an unrecognized, rogue state government and stubbornly refused to accept the U.P. in exchange for giving up the Toledo Strip and only accepted the compromise in desperation after the governor essentially hand-picked a convention to authorize the agreement, well, that also seems a salient detail about the historical relationship between the U.P. and the rest of the state. I'll grant it can be better presented in the article, but I strongly reject the suggestion that these details are "off-topic". older≠wiser 01:00, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)

Pasties as fast food

As discussed in the pasty article, pasties really aren't fast food. I removed the pasty vs. hamburger comment and added a sentence about their popularity among locals and tourists. --Dcclark 04:21, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Agreed - fast to heat up and eat, but only true Yoopers have the time, ability and patience to make a great pasty. It's a process. Thanks for changing it.

Finnish foods

Is korppu really spelled korpu in the U.P.? I didn't correct this right away, because it is quite possible that the second p was dropped from spelling because of influence of English. What about nisu? It sounds a bit old-fashioned, pulla is more often used in modern Finnish. This is understandable, because those Finns came to the U.P. about a hundred years ago. I was just wondering if the word pulla is also recognized there? -- SGJ 18:11, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

Pulla is definitely recognized -- I have a bread wrapper right here from a popular Keweenaw bakery with "Pulla (Nisu)" on it. I've usually heard people say Nisu, and that's how it's often written on menus. But the order on the wrapper seems to imply otherwise. —dcclark (talk) 20:18, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

The "Economy and culture" section should also contain information about the rise and fall of the copper mining industry. -- Petri Krohn 09:44, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

in the U.P. nisu is called nisu and Korppu is spelled korpu. Most of the Finnish language spoken here is old school Finnish. Most of the immigrants that moved here spoke Finnish that was spoken at the time they left Finland(late 1800's or early 1900's). Thus, the Finnish spoken here is older and not as modern. In fact when we go back to the mother land (Finland), the younger fins there don't understand the older language/slang (even if comming from the mouth of us younger fins). However, most of the language differences are recognizable. For the American's it's like speaking the British English of the revolution period. Not the (American) English we come to understand and use today.

Thomas J. Hiltunen

Copper mining

Copper Country copper mining ended with the closure of the White Pine mine... that I know of, there haven't been any active mines up here since.

MathieuM 09:11, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

WP:NOT

Wikipedia is not a travel or real estate agency or a networking site. MPS 05:48, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

For some reason this comment is in a different section, but I believe it was pointed at Uperman. Wikipedia is not the sort of place to ask for this sort of help. I would recommend looking locally -- heaven knows that there are hundreds of local history buffs in the Keweenaw! -- dcclark (talk) 02:56, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

UP Category

I've made a new category: Category:Upper Peninsula of Michigan for UP-related articles. There are a lot, so any help categorizing things would be greatly appreciated! I imagine there is some use for subcategories as well (such as Keweenaw, especially). -- dcclark (talk) 21:25, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

U.P. time zones

I just added a section on time zones—i hope you like it. I couldn't find what year the majority of the U.P. went from CST to EST, although anecdotal evidence and an author suggest it may have been around 1970-1973. Does anyone know the exact date or year?

Also, i have heard that some residents are pushing for the U.P. to go back to Central Time, but i couldn't find any sources to back that up, or much information about it at all. If anyone knows more about that, it would make a great addition to this section.

Thanks,
Foobaz·o< 22:28, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Superior (proposed state)

This totally reads like orig. research, and I doubt this is at all a currently notable movement. Cornell Rockey 04:56, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

I think you're onto something... the references for the article Superior (proposed state) are A) a blog and B) a non-functioning Google books link. I can't figure out where it was introduced to this article exactly, but it seems copied from the subarticle. I'll probably take Superior (proposed state) to afd if you don't beat me to it, if no sources emerge we'll remove it from this article too. --W.marsh 05:37, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Better references are certainly welcome. However, there was a semi-serious proposal made some decades ago. I actually considered the secession proposal to be more of a joke when I first came across it. But in researching some politician from the UP (sorry I don't recall the name, but he served in various offices, including Congress, for a very long time), I found out that he seriously proposed forming a new state. I think this was back when Alaska and Hawaii had only recently become states, so the notion of a new state wasn't something unheard of. But nothing much came of that and I think any remaining notions of secession are more a matter of humor (or perhaps some expression of dissatisfaction) but not really very serious (in the sense that I don't think anyone involved really thinks there is a snowaball's chance in hell of it happening). older ≠ wiser 13:23, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

I vaguely recall hearing something off-wiki about it, too... but it might be just a regional story people tell that's never really appeared in print. Feel free to chime in on the AfD, but without a source providing some actual facts on what the whole proposed state thing is, I'm afraid the article needs to go. --W.marsh 14:14, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

There was one serious push for the Upper Peninsula becoming the state of Superior in the Michigan Legislature. The push was made by Dominic J. Jacobetti Sr. was was probably the most (in)famous Michigan politician ever; he served 40 years in the Michigan House of Representatives and died before term limits could move him out. Jacobetti pushed for U.P. statehood in the legislature, although polls conducted in Marquette and Ironwood suggested that Upper Peninsula residents did not want to become their own state. I did a fairly large research project on Jacobetti and a good portion of it was dedicated to his pushing the U.P. as the 51st state. I can add a bit about this later from my research paper which is well documented and backed by sources from the Northern Michigan University/Central Upper Peninsula Archives which contains a wealth of material about the subject. - An NMU PoliSci student

Regardless, I am going to rewrite the first two paragraphs of the section, as there is much redundant information. -Sarfa 22:56, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Politics section

The politics section has been removed, re-added, and removed again. I feel that some variation on that section is useful, at least to list the senator and representatives from the UP, and their parties. The interpretation that goes along with it (that the UP is somehow progressive politically) is questionable, but interesting. I'd love to see sources. As it is, please stop removing the section whole cloth and allow the obviously correct section (the names of the congressmen and women) to remain. -- dcclark (talk) 13:39, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

• Well there's no objection to just listing the political officeholders... and I've re-added that, but the section's conclusions about UP politics need sources to be re-added. --W.marsh 13:42, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

city and population

Why was the city of Mackinac Island not included in this table? It is part of Mackinaw county and th U.P. with a poulation of 500 and an are of 3.8 square miles (9.8 km²). (Khaose1)

Because only cities with more than 2000 people are included in that table. If we included smaller cities, the table would have to grow too much. Foobaz·o< 18:37, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Here's my opinion... Year round population may be 500 but the daily summer seasonal population is sourceably estimated as high as 15,000 people. I think this fact makes Mackinac Island an reasonable addition to the "only cities with more than 2000 people" list. If it can be demonstrated (with sources) that other cities regularly exceed 2000 people then they too would qualify under that rule. MPS 22:16, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Transportation

I started a transportation section. It will need more subsections. I would respectfully suggest that a good source for this would be Transportation in the Upper Peninsula. which has a good compendium of information on transportation in the UP. We need to put in all the ferries (including Pictured Rocks and Isle Royal and Drummond Island. Need to put in Railways. Walking/hiking. Bicycling. Public Transportation. Buses. Transportation in the Upper Peninsula. Just a few thoughts. I need HELP PLEASE. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 04:07, 9 February 2008 (UTC)Stan

Transportation Mackinac Highway

I am thinking that this should be included, but I don't have any idea where it runs or what it is called. I think that there are county roads involved. Help, please. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 01:40, 11 February 2008 (UTC)Stan

Bridges in the Upper Peninsula

I thin that there is at least one really unique bridge on US-2 that should also be mentioned. It was quite an engineering feat at the time, I think. And its really beautiful, too. Anybody got some information to put in the article? Please help . 7&6=thirteen (talk) 22:33, 15 February 2008 (UTC)Stan Could this be the Eagle River Bridge? http://www.michigan.gov/mdot/0,1607,7-151-9620_11057-173540--,00.html

Almost certainly it's the Cut River Bridge (michigan.gov info) The Eagle River Bridge is on US-26, on the opposite side of the peninsula from US-2, although both the current and the old bridges are very interesting. -- dcclark (talk) 23:15, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

See Cut River Bridge. older ≠ wiser 23:54, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the answer. I think it deserves a reference in the article. Would one of you gentlemen care to do the honors? I take it the Eagle River Bridge does not deserve mention? Best to you both.

While we are on the issue of US-2, it is one of my favorite highways (on the northern edge of Lake Michigan. I have heard it rated as one of the most scenic highways in the country, but can't find a citation for that. Particularly notable is all that state land and open beach along the road. It is one heck of a stretch of road/beach, and I think it deserves mention somewhere in the article. That's my recommendation.7&6=thirteen (talk) 00:19, 16 February 2008 (UTC)Stan

The Eagle River Bridge is on M-26 in the Keweenaw, and it's listed on the M-26 page. Now, if I could get a photo of it... --Imzadi1979 (talk) 00:20, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Recently the Cut River Bridge experienced bridge improvement, again. It should be done by now, but if not be prepared for a long scenic detour. Here is link to info on the bridge: http://hunts-upguide.com/epoufette_cut_river_bridge___picnic_area.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.40.218.92 (talk) 02:35, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Zoos and Planetariums

The following is a list of all the zoos and planetariums in the state of Michigan from this webiste:

http://www.michigan.org/travel/attractions/?city=G2760&m=2;4

If you gunk around on that website, there are lists of museums, etc., although they have to be accessed (I think) through the individual cities, which makes it somewhat cumbersome.

Here is the list of Michigan Planetariums and Zoos (bold face are the ones I think are in the U.P.:

• Potter Park Zoo Lansing 46
• Abrams Planetarium, M.S.U.Campus East Lansing 47
• Children's Zoo at Celebration Square Saginaw 49
• Deer Acres Storybook Amusement Park Pinconning 55
• James C. Veen Observatory Lowell 55
• Delta College Planetarium & Learning Center Bay City 56
• Wilderness Trails Zoo Birch Run 62
• Pumpkin Farm, The Standish 65
• Flint Cultural Center
• Longway Planetarium Flint 72
• Cindy Lou's Zoo Roscommon 73
• John Ball Zoo Society Grand Rapids 73
• Public Museum of Grand Rapids Grand Rapids 73
• Indian Brook Farms Jackson 79
• Binder Park Zoo Battle Creek 80
• Children’s Garden at Leila Arboretum Society Battle Creek 80
• Kingman Museum (in Leila Arboretum) Battle Creek 80
• Carl T. Johnson Hunting and Fishing Center Cadillac 83
• Grayling Fish Hatchery, The Grayling 89
• Kalamazoo Valley Museum Kalamazoo 98
• University of Michigan - Exhibit Museum of Natural History Ann Arbor 100
• Carr-Fles Planetarium Muskegon 108
• Robinson Planetarium Adrian 110
• Cranbrook Institute of Science Bloomfield Hills 113 (Which has a planetarium)
• Cabela's Outfitters Superstore Dundee 121
• Detroit Zoo Royal Oak 122
• Heritage Park Taylor 126
• Belle Isle Park Detroit 131
• Detroit Children's Museum Detroit 131
• The New Detroit Science Center Detroit 131

*Deer Forest Fun Park Coloma 140

• Besser Museum for Northeast Michigan Alpena 145
• Ruby Farms of Michigan Ruby 145
• Deer Ranch Saint Ignace 171
• GarLyn Zoological Park Naubinway 196 http://www.garlynzoo.com/
• Museum Ship Valley Camp Sault Sainte Marie 207
• Oswald's Bear Ranch Newberry 222
• DeYoung Family Zoo Wallace 238
• *Millie Mine Bat Cave Iron Mountain

Some of these are definitely in the Yooper and should be consider for listing, either in this article or in individual cities.

Anywayz, I'm putting this up for your introspection and possible actions. Best. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 02:17, 16 February 2008 (UTC)Stan

Porcupine Mountains

The Porcupine Mountains, the oldest mountains in North America (underneath the picture of a vista in the Porcupines). Are they really the oldest? It isn't said on the main page for them, and I didn't find a reference that stated so. Can anyone shed some light on the situation? The Umbrella Corporation (talk) 20:47, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

New userbox template

This is just a shameless promotion of a new userbox tag I created for anyone who wishes to let others know that they are Yoopers. Feel free to include this in your User Page. To do this, just copy and paste this tag into your User Page, it will automatically generate the userbox:

  {{Template:User Yooper}}

This is what it will look like on your page:

'Dis User is a Yooper,    Yep, Ya Bet'cha!

I am also including a plug to include the "Wikipedians from the Upper Peninsula" category to the bottom of your User Page. By pasting the appropriate category tag in your User Page, you will automatically be added to the list. If you're interested, just click on the link below to take you to the category page, where it gives instructions on how to do this:

Wikipedians from the Upper Peninsula of Michigan

There are more of us Yooper Wiki editors out there than people think (I mean, come on - what better way to spend all those long winter months than to take up the hobby of editing Wikipedia articles about snow). Here's your chance to show we're out there! --Saukkomies ^talk 19:45, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

Newspapers

The mentions of newspapers needs to be cleaned up. The Mining Journal is not the primary paper for the UP, it's just the only paper that publishes on Sundays. I would argue, even though I'm from Negaunee, that the papers in Iron Mountain, Escanaba, Houghton and the Soo are just as important as The Mining Journal even though they don't have Sunday editions. Actually, I'm fairly certain that it isn't circulated UP-wide except on Sundays. Otherwise I think they only distribute it through Baraga, Marquette and Alger counties the rest of the week. Imzadi1979 (talk) 11:38, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

Hear! Hear! I second the motion! Speaking as someone from the Copper Country, I must say that it is the Daily Mining Gazette out of Houghton, not The Mining Journal out of Marquette, that is the predominant paper read from Copper Harbor to Ontonagon and Baraga. I say: go ahead and edit the section as you outlined. If anyone has any disagreements or inputs, we'll talk about it here. --Saukkomies ^talk 18:57, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

Sounds good Imazadi. AFAIK, the only newspapers in Iron County are the Reporter and Iron Mountain's Daily News. —Ed (talk • majestic titan) 02:51, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

map

this article could really use a map showing exactly where the region is. Kingturtle 22:40, 21 Dec 2003 (UTC)

The peninsula is located along the south shore of Lake Superior and stops at the Wisconsin state line on the west end.

http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/File:UPAncbymunicipality.png map shows African American as a category with parts of Alger and (maybe) Luce shaded as such. There is no place in the Upper Peninsula where African Americans make up the majority of a municipality. This map should be deleted or fixed (where did the relevant info come from anyways?). I'm surprised this has stayed on the page almost a year. talk) 02:18, 26 March 2010

I removed the image. The map appears to be the creation of User:Chflitwick, but with so much unsourced content, the map needed to go. Asher196 (talk) 02:31, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Ok, I guess we are going to keep the map and just accept that it is correct, but apparently not verifiable. Odd. Asher196 (talk) 21:05, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Um, this is me with egg on my face. I didn't actually study the map; that is a really blatant error. I know that I have seen a similar map somewhere—which was probably more accuate—but I can't find it on Google. Sorry all. —Ed (talk • majestic titan) 02:45, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

I found it! File:Census-2000-Data-Top-US-Ancestries-by-County.jpg —Ed (talk • majestic titan) 04:18, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Information for the map came directly from the Census Bureau. It was obtained using the Census factfinder. The African-American plurality areas are correct. These municipalities are home to prisons, which house many minority inmates from downstate. Furthermore, they are located in remote areas, which accounts for African-Americans making up a plurality of the population. It is not an error at all. The reason the map isn't "sourced" is because it's not possible to link directly to a census factfinder page; you have to navigate to it first. If any further clarification is needed, please ask. Chflitwick (talk) 21:59, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

I don't know what map you are using, but the highest I can get is like 4.6% African American in Sault Ste Marie... —Ed (talk • majestic titan) 04:12, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Munising Township, Michigan - 19% African American. Houghton Township, Michigan - 37% African American. McMillan Township, Luce County, Michigan - 13% African American. Marenisco Township, Michigan - 27% African American. All this information can be found under the "Demographics" section of the respective articles. A simple check there months ago could have prevented this problem. Chflitwick (talk) 19:49, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

I can believe that the census says that Houghton is 37% black, but that is not what a person walking the street would see unless he's walking by the prison. Such data might be correct but would obviously be misleading. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kitplane01 (talk • contribs) 07:16, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

(Margin realigned)

This is indeed a fascinating discussion. Living in Houghton County, I can absolutely attest that the demographics are not 37% African American in the community population outside of the prison (which I'm assuming must be Camp Kitwin). So, in order to accurately describe the demographics of Houghton Township, I would imagine it would be necessary to look into how other places handle this - I'm sure there are many. Maybe someone at the Census Bureau would know... I will check with a friend of mine who is a Government Publications Librarian at the Michigan Tech University to see if she can find out what the standard practice is regarding this - she's pretty good at finding this sort of thing out - and I'll report back here what she discovered. --Saukkomies ^talk 09:26, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

If you're talking about how prison population is accounted for in the census, I have a comment to add. When the 2000 census was done, there were a few corrections to the initial data concerning the City of Marquette and Chocolay Township. The municipal boundary there actually runs through the middle of Marquette Branch Prison. As I remember, the Census Bureau had to correct the numbers for the two municipalities because a cell block or two were counted in the Chocolay numbers incorrectly. Wherever the cells where the prisoners sleep are located, that's where that "resident" is counted for the census.

College students are another matter, because the students in dorms are not residents of the city normally, as they have permanent addresses "back home" with their parents. Compare that with students living off campus who have set up residency in the community. I think in that case it's where the student is registered to vote, and what address is listed on the drivers license. There's probably a few other guidelines in those cases as well. Imzadi 1979 → 09:51, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Correction: I was assuming that Houghton Township was in Houghton County (which includes Camp Kitwin), but I was wrong. After looking at it more closely, I realize that it is in the adjacent Keweenaw County. I'm not quite sure what prison or corrections facility is located in Houghton Township, but definitely those demographics are completely skewed! --Saukkomies ^talk 09:55, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

(margin readjusted)

I got a reply from my Government Documents reference librarian friend about the issue regarding how the demographics of prison inmates is dealt with by the Federal Government. Here is her reply:

The populations of prisons are included in the housing segment called "group housing", which includes nursing homes, college dorms and group homes for the mentally ill. To parse that data out you may go to American Fact Finder and use the detailed tables there.

Here is the page for the 2000 data sets, it'll be a while before the 2010 stuff comes out.

http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/DatasetMainPageServlet?_program=DEC&_submenuId=datasets_1&_lang=en

You want Census 2000 Summary File 1 (SF 1) 100-Percent Data, click on Detailed Tables

Select the geographic type and area, click Add, then click Next

In the choose a table selection method scroll down to PCT 16 "Group Quarters Population by Group Quarters Type"

Click Add, click Show Result

You can pull it out by race or sex and age, but I still think you have to go back and subtract it from the other data.

So, the way that this is handled is to provide two separate lists of demographics - one that is an overall list including the inmates, and another that excludes them. This would be done whenever the demographics of a particular political area would be significantly effected by prison populations (and other such things as mentioned in her quote).

I hope this helps. I'll leave it to someone else to do the muscle work of figuring it all out. --Saukkomies ^talk 22:59, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Fishing

It seems to me that there should be more discussion of fishing as it relates to the UP economy and cuisine. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.67.179.8 (talk) 18:37, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Feel free to jump on in and contribute! --Saukkomies ^talk 22:46, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Calumet/Laurium Downtown Business History

Does anyone out there have any information, photos, etc. regarding the downtown areas of either Calumet or Laurium? I run a resale/antique shop in downtown Laurium, and would like to put together a publication regarding this subject. Please get back to me if you would like to help me out with this.

jim upresale@yahoo.com www.geocities.com/upresale