Talk:University of Law/Archive 1

Archive 1

Assessment

I have assessed this article for the Wiki Schools Project to help in future improvement. What is needed to improve is as follows: This articles needs to be expanded so it is fully referenced and covers more topics such as the layout of the campuses, history, and what the college has to offer in terms of courses. The picture should also be integrated into an infobox. Camaron1 | Chris 13:17, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

I am re-assessing this article as C-class and placing it under WikiProject Universities as it is at university/college level rather than schooling. Camaron · Christopher · talk 18:45, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:College of Law Logo.gif

Image:College of Law Logo.gif is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 22:17, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

First private degree-awarding institution?

While the College claims to have become the first private institution in the UK to be awarded degree-conferring powers, I was under the strong impression that the University of Buckingham got there first - by some thirty years.

Unfortunately Wiki's own page on Buckingham doesn't go into much detail about their corporate status or financial means, so the College's claim could be correct.

In the meantime I suggest that instead of asserting this claim as fact, the entry should just read that the College claims they are the first, as they do.

Re-assessment

I am assessing this article for WikiProject Universities, following a suggestion being left on my talk page. I have decided to leave this article at C-class for now, though it could be B-class with a lot of further work. This article clearly needs expansion, and for ideas on content I would recommend reviewing WP:UNI/AG. Many more references are needed and many of the existing ones are dead, which need replacing - see WP:V and WP:CITE for more information. If possible citation templates, such as {{Cite web}}, should be used, see WP:CITET. When adding content to the article, ensure it follows core policies such as WP:NOR and WP:NPOV. If an editor is closely connected with the institution, they are allowed to contribute to the article, but should review WP:COI first. I think that will do for now. If further feedback is wanted from me, feel free to drop me a note. CT Cooper · talk 16:02, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Crest v Corporate Logo

I have put the crest back onto the page at the top and the corporate logo at the bottom as is is the format followed on other university pages.

It is also what is set out in the info box used (Template:Infobox university).

The guidance in the infobox states:

image_name [top image] - "...preferably the university's official seal or logo" ... logo [bottom image] - "Use for an athletics logo, corporate emblem, or similar graphic"

It appears that a distinction is drawn between a 'corporate emblem or similar graphic' and an 'official seal or logo'.

For examples of this usage see the pages of Lancaster University, University of Bristol and University of Liverpool.

Jonny1047 (talk) 18:47, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Hi Jonny1047!

I'm a representative of The University of Law, and have been working with an editor of the Wikipedia page to update the branding that is currently showing. The new University logo has kindly been updated, however we understand that you have queried removing the old crest image. I can confirm that this crest relates to the charitable activities of The College of Law and its royal charter, which The University of Law is no longer associated with. As such, the crest is no longer featured on The University of Law's website or any materials. Please see the Legal Services Institute website, which clearly shows their association with the crest - and the University's website which only features the new branding.

Could you please confirm that you are in agreement for us to proceed with updating the University of Law Wikipedia page to remove the old crest image? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bryonybennett (talk • contribs) 15:33, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

I assumed that the fact that the College changed its name to University meant that the entity was still the same. If this is not the case and the University is not the same body established by the Royal Charter and granted the arms then they should be removed or moved to alongside the history section. However, I would say that if the College simply changed its name to University and the University is still the same body to which the arms were granted then they should remain, in accordance with the guidance published on Wikipedia and in line with the pages of other universities.

Could you confirm which of the above is the case? Jonny1047 (talk) 21:00, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Hi there

Thanks for getting back to me. When The College of Law was bought by a private equity company, the charitable activities of the College were separated from the business activities, and were used to set up the Legal Education Foundation. At this point, The College of Law became The College of Law Limited, and no longer had an association with the crest emblem. The College was then granted full University title in November 2012, and was re-branded as The University of Law in March 2013.

I can therefore confirm that the University is no longer connected to the Royal Charter or the previous charitable activities of The College of Law. We will go ahead and remove the crest from the Wikipedia page, and move the only brand mark to the top of the section.

I hope this clears things up. Thanks 195.12.230.131 (talk) 10:10, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

As you can confirm that the University of Law is not the body granted or entitled to the arms I would agree that they should, indeed, be removed from the infobox. Though possibly they could be put with the history section for posterity? Jonny1047 (talk) 22:03, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

Great - thanks, we'll go ahead and get this changed. We'll speak with the editor we have been working with and see what we can do to move the crest. Thanks Bryony 195.12.230.131 (talk) 13:29, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

The logo is uploaded as non-free content and therefore its use has to follow the non-free content criteria. While it passed this criteria fine as the official crest of the college in the infobox, having it in the history section is a little more dodgy, but I will leave it for now. CT Cooper · talk 15:34, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

This talk page is to discuss improvements to the article only. Discussion over dictionary definitions is for Wiktionary, not here. This thread is clearly only going downhill. CT Cooper · talk 22:43, 28 February 2016 (UTC)

Pedantic note: It's not a crest, it's a coat of arms. I'm surprised that nobody seems to know the difference. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.197.139.41 (talk) 01:12, 5 October 2013 (UTC) The word crest has multiple meanings, with one definition being simply "a design or logo", although referring to it as a coat of arms is more specific with less potential for confusion. CT Cooper · talk 18:27, 6 December 2013 (UTC) Unfortunately for the previous contributor, the wiktionary citation he gives (he likes definition 10, I assume, because it justifies ignorant abuse of definition 3) links to one quotation from Winston Churchill which has been totally misunderstood by its Wiktionary contributor (notepaper of the English nobility in the 19th century usually bearing quite literally the heraldic crest referred to at definition (3) rather than the full escutcheon or coat of arms), and a second from an on-line film review of no linguistic standing or notoriety at all. Just by a small number of people using a word incorrectly its meaning does not change - the generality of the users of the language need to use the word in its changed sense over a considerable period of time for that to happen. Now to work out how to become a constructive wiktionary editor and get definition 10 of Crest deleted... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.108.78.10 (talk) 14:48, 28 January 2016 (UTC) I personally don't care and I don't consider arguing over such things to be a good use of time, though those who do care are welcome to go over to Wiktionary and argue it out. This is not the place for it – the purpose of this discussion was to establish the current use of the crest/coat of arms, and it succeeded in that aim. Extended commentary on the choice of words of various editors is off-topic. CT Cooper · talk 21:36, 28 January 2016 (UTC) Interesting that a thread you began is off-topic the moment it isn't summed up by your clever last word... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.108.78.10 (talk) 14:10, 23 February 2016 (UTC)

Sourcing and NPOV problems

I'm responding to a question of WP:AN, but in my capacity as an editor:

1.Ref 21, though it is not visible to me in full, is a link not to the Telegraph, but to the Telegraph/sponsored pages. It is therefore a paid advertisement and cannot be used to support a claim of excellence. I've removed both it and the promotional claim to excellence that it supports.

2. The remaining sentence under "academic profile" is an unsourced speculative original research about a claim to excellence. It has been removed, for all of theee reasons, any one of which would justify removal

3. In the section on course some material is listed twice. I've removed the duplicates.

4. References 15 is a company press release . it cannot be used to support a claim of "first" I've removed that claim

5. The disputed statement of being the first private university etc. is also sourced to a press release. ItThis cannot be used for such a claim, and I've removed it. Please dod not add it back without a 3rd party reliable source,

6. I have also removed a few other claims of first or major that are completely unsupported by sources.

7. The statement of 153 member of parliament cannot stand without a source. Contrary to what is stated asa note in the text, the burden of proof is on the editor who wants it included to find a reliable source. It cannot be indirectly sourced by searching through the articles for the people in the List of Members of Parliament, since that list is stated to be incomplete. (In a positive direction, it would be quite appropriate to include all of its graduates who are MPs or high court judges in the list of notable graduates, making a WP article for each if we do not already have one, if there is a specific source for each of them being educated there. As is the normal practice for universities, that list could also be moved to a separate article.

8. I have not dealt with the disputed claims in the first paragraph. I'll try to get back to it. DGG ( talk ) 18:46, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

DGG, I completely agree with your removal of the so-called "Academic profile" section. It was originally added just at the time that the college had gone commercial and was pushing for university status [5]. I detect the heavy hand of a PR department. As to the rest of the article, I've re-written and re-referenced the lede. I think it's now reasonably neutral (and much more truthful than it was before), but please tweak where necessary. I've also removed random PR announcements from the "History" section [6]. Apart from one of them being unreferenced and the other referenced to a press release, they were of a triviality that is entirely inappropriate. Compare to the history section of Harvard Law School. I've also made clear in that section that the claim of the Moorgate centre being "the UK's largest corporate-specific law school" is made by the university itself and added a couple of reliable sources in other places. However, the "History" section still needs work and more references. I've specifically tagged two claims with ... (1) that its 1975 proposals "changed the face of legal education" (2) that it "pioneered the establishment of pro bono clinics". Voceditenore (talk) 10:56, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

PS Here's the archived version of the now-unavailable Telegraph advertorial that was formerly Reference 21. It was indeed written by the school. Not only that, the alleged quote from it stating that the university is "the country's best law school" appears nowhere in that "article", as flaming as it was in other respects. Voceditenore (talk) 11:15, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

Once I started re-working the "History" section, it soon became apparent where the "changed the face of legal education" and "pioneered the establishment of pro bono clinics" came from. Virtually the entire section (apart from the 2012 sell-off to Montague Private Equity) had been copypasted from UoL's website and promotional brochures. That version is now consigned to the dust heap. Voceditenore (talk) 18:11, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

Notable alumni?

I have looked at the Wikipedia pages for the first five entries on the list of 'Notable alumni' (Cherie Blair; John Widgery, Baron Widgery; Charles Falconer, Baron Falconer of Thoroton; Sadiq Khan; and Androulla Vassiliou, and none of them mentions the University of Law (except for Cherie Blair, where the source is a press release from the institution itself - her own website makes no mention of any such studies). JezGrove (talk) 20:03, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

I've added the following reference which states that Cherie Blair, Francis Maude and Jonny Searle are alumni:

• West, Karl (26 February 2012). "Law school's £200m sale". Sunday Times. Retrieved 2 June 2016 .

Subscription is needed for full access, but the part available to non-subscribers lists those names. Of course the reporter may have got this information from Wikipedia. It would certainly not be the first time. Voceditenore (talk) 05:16, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

JezGrove, I've added references for Baron Widgery, Lord Falconer, and Sadiq Khan. I've removed Androulla Vassiliou. She may well have studied there, but I can't find a reference at all for it. She studied law in London in the very early 1960s. Many prominent lawyers, politicians often leave such things out of their official bios and only list where they principally studied—in her case, the Middle Temple. Listing the College of Law in your official UK/EU biography is somewhat equivalent to prominent US lawyers graduating from Harvard Law School and also listing the place where they studied for their bar exam. Voceditenore (talk) 16:49, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

I'll later make a gallery, nonetheless many of them do not possess any image at all.--Legrepunalycou (talk) 16:28, 7 June 2016 (UTC)

No, Legrepunalycou, please do not make a gallery of alumni. It is entirely unnecessary for an article about the school to have a gallery of its alumni, or a gallery of anything. I suggest you read Wikipedia:Image use policy. This is an encyclopedia article, not an alternative web site for the university and should not be treated as one. That includes repeatedly attempting to re-add this sort of blatant puffery. Voceditenore (talk) 18:38, 8 June 2016 (UTC)

Have a look at the UCL one.--Legrepunalycou (talk) 17:16, 9 June 2016 (UTC)

I have. It is also inappropriate. Voceditenore (talk) 06:33, 11 June 2016 (UTC)

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Voceditenore (talk) 10:19, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

Update and removal of Advert tag

I've re-written and expanded this article, pretty much from top to bottom, and replaced all of the original copypaste from the UoL's website in the "History" section. Apart from the promotional nature, it omitted rather important, but perhaps less flattering aspects of the institution's history. In the process I have removed all references consisting of links to their website, apart from one which simply references the partial list of courses. See also my previous updates in Sourcing and NPOV problems above. I've now removed the advert tag, as in my view it no longer applies. User:Reaganomics88, User:Nihonjoe, User:DGG, hopefully you're in agreement with this. If not, there's always the "undo" button. Voceditenore (talk) 17:24, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

At a quick glance, it looks far, far better than it used to look. Thank you for your work. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 18:58, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

Voceditenore, you did some really excellent work rescuing this. DGG ( talk ) 22:50, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

Yes, thanks for your work. Reaganomics88 (talk) 10:16, 4 June 2016 (UTC)

I was concerned on the direction this article was heading in. Thank you for stepping-in and giving it a much needed revamp. CT Cooper · talk 19:29, 6 June 2016 (UTC)

Discuss here please

So what's wrong with those phrases? Those aren't promotional at all.--Legrepunalycou (talk) 18:47, 9 June 2016 (UTC)

See above, the previous version was written with extensive WP:PEACOCK language. Also, as Voceditenore says, if you have a connection to the university you should declare it. Reaganomics88 (talk) 21:28, 9 June 2016 (UTC)

Legrepunalycou, they are promotional because they are what the university says about itself in its own marketing material, not what any independent reliable source has ever said. We are an encyclopedia summarizing what independent reliable sources have written. We do not reprint the subject's publicity blurbs. I'm going to spell it out for you because you persistently refuse to get the point or understand the basic standards required of editors here. You have repeatedly re-added:

It has frequently been recognised as "the world's leading professional law school" by several magazines and annual publications of university rankings, including the Times Higher Education and QS World University Rankings.

You then referenced it to

• "University of Law announces new Leeds City centre location". The Guardian. This is the university's own press release published in the "Partner Zone" of the Guardian, where they publish advertorials for a fee. It is not an article from the newspaper.
• "History of the University of Law". The Complete University Guide. This is the university's own blurb, written by their marketing department. This website (thecompleteuniversityguide.co.uk) has its own proprietary rankings for UK universities and the University of Law does not even appear in the top 100 for Law [7].
• "The University of Law". Top Universtities. This is the university's own blurb, written by their marketing department. This website (topuniversities.com) has its own proprietary rankings for universities worldwide, i.e. QS World University Rankings, and the University of Law does not even appear in the top 200 for Law [8].

You also claim in that sentence that the Times Higher Ed was one of the publications that recognised it as "the world's leading professional law school" . It has not said anything of the kind. You cannot find a single independent source for that made-up quote, let alone the Times Higher Ed.

Every single edit you have made to Wikipedia both under this account [9] and under the IP 90.218.243.199 [10] has been to add promotional or inappropriate material to this article, add links to its rebranded name in many other articles, add false and promotional content to articles like List of UK universities by date of foundation [11], add to many biographies that the person was an alumni of the "University of Law" with zero supporting evidence and consistently stating that they attended the "University of Law" (a for-profit business), when they actually attended its previous incarnation, the College of Law, a charity with a Royal Charter. This latter behaviour strongly suggests attempts at search engine optimization, in addition to pure marketing. I am now going through every single article you and the IP have edited to check for inaccuracies and repair them. Voceditenore (talk) 05:24, 10 June 2016 (UTC)

Voceditenore don't say nonsense. ULaw is a private university, therefore how can it be ranked? Times Higher Ed stated that the University consider itself to be the world's professional law school. We could add it.--Legrepunalycou (talk) 14:58, 12 June 2016 (UTC)

The University of Buckingham is a private university and it is ranked number 52 in the UK for law according to the The Complete University Guide rankings . And no, we are not going to reprint the university's marketing claims as a quote from its former CEO, let alone in the lead. Have you learned nothing from your block? I also changed the edit you just made here which attempted to use a 2006 source to support a claim about 2016. That is completely unacceptable. Voceditenore (talk) 15:58, 12 June 2016 (UTC)

• Update to the above: See Rose, Neil (16 November 2016). "ULaw forced to stop calling itself “UK's leading law school”". Legal Futures

"The University of Law (ULaw) is to stop claiming that it is the “leading” law school in the UK in the wake of a ruling by the Advertising Standards Authority (ASA). The ASA upheld a complaint about an advert published by ULaw after finding the evidence supplied by the university incompatible with such a claim.[...]

Voceditenore (talk) 10:47, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

Hype removed

User:Legrepunalycou, you removed this from the lead (and its supporting reference):

"The university has eight branches in England, two of them in London. It was founded in 1962 as the College of Law and was granted degree-awarding powers in 2006 by which time it had become Europe's largest provider of vocational legal education and training."

You replaced it with:

"The university is Europe's largest law school and the longest-established specialist provider of legal education. It has eight branches in England, two of them in London. It was founded in 1962 as the College of Law."

I have reverted this because the original was more accurate, better referenced, more informative, and better written. Apart from the unnecessary hype, the second reference you added was sponsored content, i.e. advertorial and the first reference you added only supports that it is the UK's largest law school. Why are you so determined to add hype like "longest", "biggest", "oldest", "leading" etc. to the lead, and as high as possible in the lead? Why are you determined to make this encyclopedia article read like a recruitment brochure? I am going to ask you one more time. Do have any affiliation with the University of Law? Are you being paid to make these kinds of edits to the article? Can you please explain why in this exchange on Commons concerning an image of one of the university's buildings you said "This image belongs to us and it has been labelled on many websites and forums"? Voceditenore (talk) 18:46, 21 June 2016 (UTC)

Obvoiusly I have affiliations with this institution. The sources are reliable and the article should contain its influence. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Legrepunalycou (talk • contribs) 16:35, 24 June 2016 (UTC)

What are your "affiliations"? Are you in any way employed by the University? If the answer is yes, you should not be directly editing this article at all. You are also in violation of Wikipedia's terms of use if you do not explicitly declare this employment, name the employer, and name the articles you are being paid to edit. Employment includes being an employee of the university itself, a freelance employee working on behalf of the university, or working for a PR or digital marketing company of which the university is a client.

I have again removed the "reference" [12] which is an advertorial ("sponsored content") and not a news article, and the claim which it allegedly supported: "over time it had became the longest provider of legal education". Apart from being ungrammatical English, it is patently untrue. It is not the longest, i.e. oldest, provider of legal education at all, even in the UK. It was founded in 1962 from the merger of two institutions, the oldest of which was founded in 1876, and not even awarded degree powers until 2006. Please read City Law School (founded in 1852), UCL Faculty of Laws (founded in 1826) and multiple others. Even if it were true, whether or not an institution is the "oldest" is utterly immaterial to how "influential" or "good" it is. Frankly, the claim that it is the "largest" law school in the UK is also utterly immaterial to its prestige or influence. ULaw has 16,000 students. Harvard Law School has under 2000. Prestige and influence do not rest with size. Nevertheless, I left in your pointless claim about ULaw being the "largest" law school in the UK. I also suggest you read Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Words to watch and stop using meaningless time constructs like "currently". Voceditenore (talk) 05:59, 25 June 2016 (UTC)

That is not pointless at all. You are talking as you are the founder of Wikipedia. And then I've used currently" to demonstrate that I am not using attractive words. With regard to the other sentence, there are amply of sources that mention that. Probably its meaning is not same as you understood. Nonetheless ULaw is the finest t Law school in the entire Europe. Almost everything is being thought there. Would you like to be enrolled there? Are you interested to pursue any law related degree? How old are you? Legrepunalycou (talk) 15:18, 25 June 2016 (UTC)

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New Chancellor - Lord David Neuberger

Hello everyone,

I am employed by Global University Systems (GUS) - the company that owns The University of Law. I would like to extend a hand to the Wikipedia community in an effort to help improve this page and ensure that relevant, noteworthy and correct (sourced) information is present. My Conflict of Interest is that I am an employee of GUS (please see my Talk Page for all COIs). I seek to be fully compliant with all COI policies and hope to work with all editors for the improvement of the page.

The edit I am requesting is to update the page with the correct chancellor's name - Lord David Neuberger.

Can this please be corrected in the info-box, and with the inclusion of the following sentence (or words to the tune of): “In September 2018, the university appointed former Supreme Court President, Lord David Neuberger as chancellor.”

This can be sourced to this article and to the university's website:

https://www.law.ac.uk/about/news/2018/ulaw-welcomes-lord-neuberger-as-its-new-chancellor/ https://www.legalcheek.com/2018/09/ulaw-appoints-ex-supreme-court-president-lord-neuberger-as-chancellor/

I am requesting this edit as it updates the page with relevant information. I believe this is appropriately non-promotional and is correctly sourced.

If this is deemed inappropriate for Wikipedia then please let me know - all advice from Editors is appreciated.

With thanks - MrAttempt (talk) 12:53, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

Done. Voceditenore (talk) 13:29, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

New Campuses

Good afternoon,

I am employed by Global University Systems (GUS) - the company that owns The University of Law; my Conflict of Interest (please see my Talk Page for all COIs). I seek to be fully compliant with all COI policies and hope to work with all editors for the improvement of the page.

I am requesting that the following be added to the 21st Century section:

"In November 2018, the University announced it was launching its first international campus in Hong Kong in the spring of 2019. In the same month, the University announced it was opening its 10th UK campus in the city of Nottingham to focus on technology; with the campus running an LLB and MSc on legal innovation and technology."

This can be sourced to the following: https://www.insidermedia.com/insider/southeast/ulaw-to-open-in-hong-kong https://thepienews.com/news/ulaw-announces-first-international-campus-in-hong-kong/ https://www.eastmidlandsbusinesslink.co.uk/mag/property/approval-for-university-of-laws-nottingham-plans/ http://www.thebusinessdesk.com/eastmidlands/news/2020491-university-of-law-to-open-nottingham-campus

If this is deemed inappropriate for Wikipedia then please let me know - all time given and advice contributed by Editors is appreciated.

With thanks - MrAttempt (talk) 12:59, 20 December 2018 (UTC)

• Not done. These are routine announcements for events which have not happened yet. When and if the Hong Kong and Nottingham campuses are actually opened, they will be added to the article. Voceditenore (talk) 13:11, 20 December 2018 (UTC)

Hi @Voceditenore: Many thanks for your input and time.

What would be your consideration on the following to be added to the History section (if the History section is appropriate for this)?

"The University of Law also has GDL and LPC programmes taught at The University of Liverpool, The University of Reading, and The University of Exeter."

https://www.liverpool.ac.uk/study/postgraduate-taught/courses/university-of-law/ https://www.legalcheek.com/2017/05/ulaw-strikes-lpc-and-gdl-deal-with-the-university-of-reading/ https://socialsciences.exeter.ac.uk/law/public/universityoflaw/

With thanks - MrAttempt (talk) 13:45, 20 December 2018 (UTC)

• I've added this later request in one sentence with 2 references which cover all three universities. It appears in the Rankings and academics section. It's not a significant aspect of the University's history. Voceditenore (talk) 14:36, 20 December 2018 (UTC)

Hi @Voceditenore: - would you be able to advise on adding the Nottingham campus?

When you say "actually opened" - do you mean when teaching has begun, or when ULaw occupies the building?

Your help and time are very appreciated.

With thanks - MrAttempt (talk) 09:33, 1 February 2019 (UTC)

MrAttempt, I have added a brief "Campuses" section and listed Nottingham there as well as in the infobox. It has a definite address, is now holding "Open Days", and is recruiting for September 2019 [13]. The Hong Kong campus is far more nebulous [14], and I have left it out. No address is given and it has yet to receive approval for its courses per Hong Kong's Non-local Higher and Professional Education (Regulation) Ordinance. Given GUS institutions' propensity for misleading descriptions of their "branches" and "campuses". This one requires considerably more clarification and verification as a going concern before it can be added. Voceditenore (talk) 11:01, 1 February 2019 (UTC)

Great - thank you very much @Voceditenore:

ULaw Gold rated - Teaching Excellence Framework

Good afternoon,

I am employed by Global University Systems (GUS) - the company that owns The University of Law; my Conflict of Interest (please see my Talk Page for all COIs). I seek to be fully compliant with all COI policies and hope to work with all editors for the improvement of the page.

I am requesting that details of The University of Law's rating of 'Gold' according to the Teaching Excellence Framework (TEF) be added to the 'Rankings and academics' section.

Could something along the following lines please be added:

"Since 2017, the university has been rated 'Gold' according to the Teaching Excellence Framework (TEF)."

This can be sourced to (as well as the ULaw website) the following: https://www.theguardian.com/partner-zone-university-of-law/2017/jun/22/the-university-of-law-wins-gold-in-first-teaching-excellence-framework https://www.legalcheek.com/2017/06/ulaw-among-gold-rated-universities-in-governments-first-teaching-rankings/

I am requesting this edit as I believe that this update will better-inform the page, providing a relevant perception of the current state of the university, whilst not being overly promotional.

If this is deemed inappropriate for Wikipedia then please let me know - all time given and advice contributed by Editors is appreciated.

With thanks - MrAttempt (talk) 16:37, 18 December 2018 (UTC)

I think because the Teaching Excellence Framework is notable in Wikipedia, this claim could be added. But I would like the reference to come from TEF itself if possible. Also, it appears that some of the other schools rated with TEF's color codes were changed recently, would be nice to know if this 2017 status was affected by that. Pinging @Voceditenore: for their input.  Spintendo  19:22, 18 December 2018 (UTC)

Reply 18-DEC-2018

  Edit request declined  

• I'm going to go ahead and decline this request, as its wording is deceptive. The proposal is "Since 2017, the University has been rated 'Gold' according to the Teaching Excellence Framework (TEF)". Considering that the first results for TEF were only collected and published in 2017—and those results were considered provisional as the trial year—having the claim say "Since 2017" implies that this is something more substantial than it truly is. Let's wait until 2019 to start mentioning this, when the results will be more meaningful.

Regards,  Spintendo  06:07, 19 December 2018 (UTC)

Spintendo, I would be inclined to add this now, although only with the simple sentence "In 2017, the university received a Gold rating in the UK government's Teaching Excellence Framework." First if all, this information appears in over 150 WP articles on UK universities [15]. Secondly, this can be officially verified via the Office for Students (OfS) which is an independent public body that was established by the Higher Education and Research Act 2017. OfS verification of ULaw's gold rating (valid until June 2019) is here. That link should be used for the reference not the sources suggested by MrAttempt which are not adequate. Legal Cheek is a blog and the Guardian piece is sponsored content paid for by ULaw. Voceditenore (talk) 09:10, 19 December 2018 (UTC) Updated by Voceditenore (talk) 09:56, 19 December 2018 (UTC)

Hi @Spintendo and Voceditenore: I appreciate your point and thank you for your time, particularly in sourcing the OfS link.

I would be very happy for this to proceed as you have suggested. With thanks - MrAttempt (talk) 09:14, 19 December 2018 (UTC)

Reply 20-DEC-2018

  Edit request implemented  

• Thank you to Voceditenore for their input. I've added the claim to the article's History section.

Regards,  Spintendo  13:10, 20 December 2018 (UTC)

Note: I've placed this in the History section, but if it would be better placed under Rankings and academics please either move it or let me know and I'll move it. Thank you.  Spintendo  13:22, 20 December 2018 (UTC)

Hi Spintendo. I've moved it to the Rankings and academics section. On balance, it's the more appropriate place. It's not really a significant part of the University's history per se. Voceditenore (talk) 13:27, 20 December 2018 (UTC)

Notable Alumni

Good afternoon,

I am employed by Global University Systems (GUS) - the company that owns The University of Law; my Conflict of Interest (please see my Talk Page for all COIs).

I am requesting for the inclusion of the following names (and sources) to the 'Notable Alumni' section:

Maria Eagle MP - https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Maria_Eagle

Mark Field MP - https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Mark_Field

Hazel Blears - https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Hazel_Blears

Jacqueline Bhabha - https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Jacqueline_Bhabha

Graham Francis Defries - https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Graham_Francis_Defries

Edward Garnier - https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Edward_Garnier

I am researching more but wanted to check if these would be accepted.

With thanks - MrAttempt (talk) 16:16, 4 January 2019 (UTC)

Please provide the references which are used in the Wikipedia articles listed above to confirm these claims, per WP:ALUMNI, which states "When alumni have their own articles in mainspace, it is not necessary for their notability to be referenced, as long as it is done in the biographical articles. Be sure to check the existing biography article to ensure that it demonstrates alumni status with a cited reference." Please provide those cited references for each name below in your reply. Thank you!  Spintendo  19:54, 4 January 2019 (UTC)

The only one of the above which has a valid reference in their article for having attended the College of Law is Maria Eagle. At least one of the others (Jacqueline Bhabha) is patently false. It claims she received a doctorate from the College of Law in 1975. The college did not get degree awarding powers until 2006. I agree with Spintendo. Anyone requesting these additions must supply the exact inline citation. It's not up to us to do that work for something so trivial to the article. Voceditenore (talk) 06:33, 6 January 2019 (UTC)

Good morning. Many thanks for your input - please see below the layout for the Maria Eagle addition to the Notable Alumni section. Maria Eagle graduated from the College of Law in 1990, sourced as follows: source With thanks - MrAttempt (talk) 09:32, 7 January 2019 (UTC)

• Re these requests. I have added Maria Eagle, with a reference and brief description, i.e. "Labour Member of Parliament for Garston and Halewood", not when she graduated from the College of Law. I note that three of the above requests were already in the article's list of "Notable alumni" (Jacqueline Bhabha, Graham Francis Defries, and Edward Garnier). I have updated their references to repair the broken links. MrAttempt, if you plan to make any more requests like this, please read the article carefully to ensure that you are not requesting something already there. Secondly, ensure that your proposed wording is consistent with the style already in the article. Thirdly, please format all supplied references properly, do not simply paste in a bare url and expect others to do the work for you. Help:Referencing for beginners and its associated pages has more on how to format references correctly. Voceditenore (talk) 09:06, 10 January 2019 (UTC)

THE University of Law

Good afternoon,

I am employed by Global University Systems (GUS) - the company that owns The University of Law; my Conflict of Interest (please see my Talk Page for all COIs).

I am requesting a change to the name used throughout the article.

As demonstrated on the University's website, documentation, and within the press (https://thepienews.com/news/ulaw-announces-first-international-campus-in-hong-kong/), ULaw is now formally known as "The University of Law".

I am requesting that this change be made apparent throughout the article when the subject's full name is used.

The words "University of Law" are present eight times throughout the article and require this update (not including references and the title).

Additionally, the introduction refers to ULaw "branches" throughout the UK. Can this pleased be correct to "campuses".

With thanks - MrAttempt (talk) 11:45, 9 January 2019 (UTC)

Reply 09-JAN-2019

  Please use WP:RMCM  

1. The request has indicated that The words "University of Law" are present eight times throughout the article and require this update (not including references and the title).
2. Though it is not strictly required, consistency dictates that the subject's title as it is used in the title of the article and the subject's title as it is used in the prose of the article ought to be identical or as nearly identical as possible.
3. It is not specified in the request why this need for conformity exists with the use of the title in the prose of the article but not so with the subject's title as it is displayed in the article's title.
4. Having the article's title changed to include The would indicate the primacy of this usage, and would make enforcing the use of The throughout the article much more easier.
5. Requests to change an article's title should be submitted using the {{requested move}} template specifically as a controversial move request process requiring discussion amongst the wider community.
6. A controversial requested move typically takes about 7 days to complete.
7. Before taking this step, please ensure that you are well acquainted with the requested move process by thoroughly reviewing its procedures.

More information can be found at requested moves.
Regards,  Spintendo  03:25, 10 January 2019 (UTC)

Reply 10-JAN-2019

I have changed "branches" to "campuses" which was part of the above request. Voceditenore (talk) 09:16, 10 January 2019 (UTC)

Stephen Barclay

Good afternoon,

I am employed by Global University Systems (GUS) - the company that owns The University of Law; my Conflict of Interest (please see my Talk Page for all COIs).

I am asking that current Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union - MP Stephen Barclay - please be added to the list of Alumni.

This can be sourced to: https://www.gov.uk/government/people/stephen-barclay

With thanks - MrAttempt (talk) 15:10, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

• Done. Voceditenore (talk) 16:00, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

Requested move 23 January 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (non-admin closure) KCVelaga (talk) 16:07, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

---

University of Law → The University of Law – When the institution changed its name, it formally went from "College of Law" to "The University of Law". This makes the prefix "The" inclusive within the formal name of the school. This is demonstrated throughout all documentation of the University, on the official website and social media, as well as recognised in media: https://thepienews.com/news/ulaw-announces-first-international-campus-in-hong-kong/ MrAttempt (talk) 15:39, 23 January 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:THE. Using the definite article "The" at the beginning of the article title is discouraged. A lot of universities use the definite article in their official name, but we don't usually include them in the article titles. See Ohio State University as an example. Rreagan007 (talk) 20:05, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
• Comment While Rreagan007's point is generally true, there are exceptions per this section of WP:THE:

On the other hand, some universities only refer to themselves as "The University of X", even in running text (e.g. The College of New Jersey). If such usage is prevalent on university press releases and press kits, contact information, "about" pages, and internal department websites, and it is reasonably common in external sources (try a Google search), then it is more appropriate to name the Wikipedia article The University of X.

I've done various Google searches and the university does consistently refer to itself as "The University of Law" (as opposed to "the University of Law") in running text on its website and in its press releases, e.g. [16], [17], [18], [19], [20], [21]. In external sources, it's a mixed bag but with "the" predominating "The" in running text. The Law Society Gazette uses "the" [22], as do Times Higher Education [23], The Daily Telegraph [24], The Guardian [25], BBC News [26], and Moody's Investors Service [27]. However, The Independent uses "The" [28]. MrAttempt's external example is no help because the phrase "The University of Law" only occurs sentence initially, not in running text. If the consensus is not to move, perhaps the name in the lead's first sentence could be rendered as The University of Law as is done in Ohio State University. Voceditenore (talk) 12:22, 24 January 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:THE. Using the definite article "The" at the beginning of the article title is discouraged. A lot of universities use the definite article in their official name, but we don't usually include them in the article titles. See Ohio State University as an example. Thanks User:Rreagan007. —  AjaxSmack  22:46, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose per WP:THE. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:40, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose per WP:THE. feminist (talk) 16:22, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

---

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Additional Alumni

Good afternoon,

I am employed by Global University Systems (GUS) - the company that owns The University of Law; my Conflict of Interest (please see my Talk Page for all COIs).

I am asking that current Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice - David Gauke MP - please be added to the list of Alumni.

Sourced to: https://www.gov.uk/government/people/david-gauke

I am also asking that current Archbishop of Wales - John Davies - please be added.

Sourced to: https://www.churchinwales.org.uk/news/2017/09/new-archbishop-of-wales-elected/

With thanks - MrAttempt (talk) 09:25, 1 February 2019 (UTC)

Reply 1-FEB-2019

  Edit request partially implemented  

1. N John Davies was not added, as the biography in his article does not confirm
2. Y David Gauke was added.

Regards,  Spintendo  10:15, 1 February 2019 (UTC)

Hi @Spintendo:

The article for John Davies states: "He graduated in law from the University of Southampton from where he moved to the College of Law at Chester." This is from the official Church of Wales website.

Would this not be considered confirmed by the article?

With thanks - MrAttempt (talk) 10:31, 1 February 2019 (UTC)

Spintendo, I strongly suggest that no alumnus be added here unless it is accompanied by an inline citation in this article. For example, although the article David Gauke says that he attended the College of Law (ULaw's old name), there is not a single inline citation there to verify that. I have found one and added in this article. On the other hand, the reference provided by MrAttempt for John Davies (Archbishop of Wales) is a very reliable source (official website of the Church in Wales) and verifies this. There is no requirement that the information to be added here must be mentioned in the person's WP article, provided this article has an inline citation. I have now added his name here with the reference. Having said that, MrAttempt, please do not expect volunteer editors to do the work for which you are being paid. You need to submit these requests here "ready to go" with a properly formatted link to the person's WP article, the proper style of description with properly formatted internal links, and a properly formatted inline citation with full bibliographic information. The following is what you should have submitted in your request:

• John Davies, Archbishop of Wales

References

Do not simply list a name expecting us to find their article and write the description, and then slap down an unformatted bare URL as a "reference". Given the quantity and frequency of your edit requests (20 requests between University of Law and 5 other GUS-related articles in the last month alone), that is the least that you can do. Voceditenore (talk) 12:05, 1 February 2019 (UTC)

Good morning @Voceditenore: - and many thanks for your points. I wasn't aware this was the case for edit requests of Notable Alumni but will endeavor to do as such from now on.

With thanks - MrAttempt (talk) 10:20, 4 February 2019 (UTC)#

Inclusion of ULaw Solicitor Apprenticeships

Good afternoon,

I am employed by Global University Systems (GUS) - the company that owns The University of Law; my Conflict of Interest (please see my Talk Page for all COIs).

I seek advice. Would ULaw be able to have a list of their solicitor apprenticeship partnerships mentioned in the article? If so, would this require being sourced to independent media or the University's website?

For example, the University recently announced several new partnerships: https://universitybusiness.co.uk/Article/ulaw-announces-2019-solicitor-apprenticeship-partners/ https://www.lawcareers.net/Information/News/The-University-of-Law-launches-2019-solicitor-apprenticeships-with-the-BBC-Fiel

This strikes me as relevant to the article in that these are high-profile firms/councils, which are of particular relevance according to the University's purpose of training in law.

If accepted, would this be written as a paragraph or as a list (so as to make the edit request easier)?

With thanks - MrAttempt (talk) 10:46, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

• No suitable—neither as a list or a paragraph. It's basically advertising. This is information suitable for the ULaw website and prospectus. These new apprenticeships/partnerships are routine announcements, based on a press-release. Note also that the new Solicitors Qualifying Examination, preparation for which these apprenticeships are being touted in the sources, does not even come into effect until 2021 [29]. Voceditenore (talk) 11:53, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

Removal/alteration of sentence

Good afternoon,

I am employed by Global University Systems (GUS) - the company that owns The University of Law; my Conflict of Interest (please see my Talk Page for all COIs).

The 2nd sentence of the 5th paragraph of the '21st Century' section states: "GUS began a programme of restructuring its UK holdings with the intention of making the University of Law the company's sole provider of academic qualifications and professional qualifications, including the master's degrees previously offered by the London School of Business and Finance."

This should be deemed an announcement as included in the PIE News article it is sourced to. <ref.Custer, Sara. "Global University Systems to restructure", Pie News, London, 25 September, 2015. Retrieved on 11 October 2019.</ref>

If restructuring took place in any capacity, ULaw is not and never has been the sole provider of academic degrees to GUS, including Masters degrees.

I am asking that this information either be removed or corrected to (along the lines of):

"This same year, GUS announced it would be restructuring its UK holdings with the intent of making the University of Law the company's sole provider of academic qualifications and professional qualifications. However, as of 2019, the University has not been made the sole provider of any degrees to GUS."

With thanks - MrAttempt (talk) 12:04, 11 February 2019 (UTC)

• I simply removed it. The information was pretty tangential and no longer accurate. Voceditenore (talk) 17:13, 11 February 2019 (UTC)

Additional degrees

Good afternoon,

I am employed by Global University Systems (GUS) - the company that owns The University of Law; my Conflict of Interest (please see my Talk Page for all COIs).

The University of Law offers additional degrees, aside from Law degrees. These include BAs in Criminology, Criminology and Sociology, and a BSC in Policing an Criminal Investigation. All are 'Live' courses; currently recruiting via the University website, though they are NOT starting teaching until September of 2019.

To my mind, these are distinct enough to merit a brief mention in the academics section, though I understand this may cross into advertorial/promotional. I wanted to check as it is different from the typical law school offering. Would this be considered overly promotional?

With thanks - MrAttempt (talk) 10:05, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

Reply 25-APR-2019

  Edit request declined  

• This is a request to offer an opinion on the suitability of adding courses from the college's catalog to Wikipedia, so that Wikipedia's reach may extend knowledge of these offerings to potential students. The COI editor states that they are "distinct enough to merit a brief mention in the academics section". But the COI editor has not stated what it is about that distinction, which makes their being mentioned here necessary. What is more distinct are the guidelines which state that Wikipedia ought not function as a mirror of information available on the University's own website. Equally distinct are its guidelines which state that the article ought not to be tasked with providing the latest and most current class offerings of the University to Wikipedia's readership.

Regards,  Spintendo  20:19, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

Good afternoon @Spintendo: Many thanks for your time in replying. My request for advice on the suitability of adding The University of Law courses that are not of a legal training context was made in effort to better inform the article. I had considered the distinction between ULaw's typical legal training courses and those listed above might be worth including in the article - your response is distinctly clear. With thanks again - MrAttempt (talk) 14:01, 26 April 2019 (UTC)

University of East Anglia collaboration

Good afternoon,

I am employed by Global University Systems (GUS) - the company that owns The University of Law; my Conflict of Interest (please see my Talk Page for all COIs).

The University announced today that it is collaborating with the University of East Anglia to deliver the LPC.

I am requesting that the second sentence of the 'Campuses' section be updated to say:

"It also delivers the Graduate Diploma in Law and Legal Practice Course programmes at four other UK universities: University of Exeter (since 2015), University of Reading (since 2017), University of Liverpool (since 2018), and University of East Anglia (since 2019)."

References

With thanks - MrAttempt (talk) 15:21, 16 May 2019 (UTC)

• Not done. Per this article in the Eastern Daily Press, the agreement was literally announced today and the course will not commence until September. This information can be added when and if the course actually begins. Voceditenore (talk) 15:42, 16 May 2019 (UTC)

Many thanks - I will return to this when the course begins. MrAttempt (talk) 15:58, 16 May 2019 (UTC)

New campus and collaboration

Good afternoon,

I am employed by Global University Systems (GUS) - the company that owns The University of Law; my Conflict of Interest (please see my Talk Page for all COIs).

I am following up on previous requests that were rejected as insufficient evidence was provided, now updated.

Hong Kong

I am requesting that the Hong Kong campus be added to the list of campuses in the info-box, and the following to the 21st Century section:

"In November 2018, the University announced it was launching its first international campus in Hong Kong in the spring of 2019, with teaching beginning in September of that year."

The University of Law's Hong Kong campus is now offering multiple courses, and has been approved for registration by the Registrar of Non-local Higher and Professional Education Courses in April 2019 under the Non-local Higher and Professional Education (Regulation) Ordinance, Cap. 493.

The ULaw Hong Kong campus now also has listed courses.

Is anything else required for this to be added?

University of East Anglia

I am requesting that the second sentence of the 'Campuses' section be updated to say:

"It also delivers the Graduate Diploma in Law and Legal Practice Course programmes at four other UK universities: University of Exeter (since 2015), University of Reading (since 2017), University of Liverpool (since 2018), and University of East Anglia (since 2019)."

The University of East Anglia-ULaw courses have, since the last request, held open days and the LPC, LPC with LLM, and the LPC with MSc. This is also supported on the UEA website.

Is anything else required for this to be added?

With thanks - MrAttempt (talk) 14:28, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

References

• Done. But I must say, calling Hong Kong a "campus" is a bit of a stretch. The Hong Kong Management Association provides the teaching venues and administration as it does for 16 other foreign universities [30]. Voceditenore (talk) 15:11, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

Backwards copyvio

Diannaa, I'm going to revert your removal and rewrite of material which you said was a copyvio from http://50prospectus.com/uk/university-law-prospectus/ That is backwards copyvio copied from this article, not the university's real prospectus. Observe the article as of 12 July 2016. 50prospectus.com, owned by a company in Ghana, was not even created until 4 October 2016. Observe the Whois record. Voceditenore (talk) 12:45, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for discovering that, and for your quick action. I'm glad I spoke to you about it. You might check this removal as well. But note that the IP added material that was already present elsewhere in the article, so a straight revert of my removal of the IP's edit is not a good idea. — Diannaa 🍁 (talk) 13:12, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

Hi Diannaa. I've left your first removal pretty much as is so far, but cleaned up further infelicities and referencing errors which had been added by the IP and which had not been removed by your edit. I'll have a closer look and may well re-add some of the material removed in that first edit. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 13:21, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

Additional alumni

Good afternoon,

I am employed by Global University Systems (GUS) - the company that owns The University of Law; my Conflict of Interest (please see my Talk Page for all COIs).

I am requesting the addition of the following alumni to the 'Notable alumni' section.

Each name requested has their own Wikipedia article, and a reference to their being a ULaw (College of Law) alumni.

Extended content
John Silvester Varley Robert Jenrick Seema Kennedy Robin Tilbrook Denise Nurse Greg Knight Princess Badiya bint Hassan Hazel Blears James Wharton (politician) Gillian McAllister Julian Malins Rachel Joyce (triathlete) If there are any issues, or questions from Editors, please do let me know. All advice and time volunteered in appreciated. References

With thanks - MrAttempt (talk) 15:43, 12 December 2019 (UTC)

Reply 12-DEC-2019

• These certainly look alright to add, but looking at the article, I see that the convention here is to place a small blurb after the name, giving a bit of detail about each alumnus, which is keeping in line with the guidelines at WP:ALUMNI. I wouldn't want to add names that don't correspond with how the other items in that section are handled, as it would appear incomplete having half of the names with descriptions and half of them without. Perhaps something could be added to these names? Please advise  Spintendo  19:13, 12 December 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for looking into this @Spintendo:. I have pasted below the list of alumni, including the detail of their career/role according to their Wiki article. Do let me know if there's anything else I can do.

Extended content

John Silvester Varley, banker Robert Jenrick, Conservative politician and Secretary of State for Housing, Communities and Local Government Seema Kennedy, Conservative politician Robin Tilbrook, solicitor and political leader Denise Nurse, entrepreneur, lawyer and television presenter Greg Knight, politician and author Princess Badiya bint Hassan, Jordanian princess Hazel Blears, former Labour Member of Parliament for Salford and Eccles James Wharton (politician) Gillian McAllister, author Julian Malins, barrister Rachel Joyce (triathlete) References

MrAttempt (talk) 09:40, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

Reply (2nd) 13-DEC-2019

  Edit request implemented    Spintendo  12:55, 13 December 2019 (UTC)