Talk:Ulnar neuropathy at the elbow

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Lead

I have expanded the lead to include the main points of the body, and removed the "Lead too short" top note. Please review. --D Anthony Patriarche (talk) 14:01, 13 February 2020 (UTC)

Pain is not a characteristic symptom of ulnar nerve entrapment. The hallmark symptom is paresthesia. Paresthesia can be uncomfortable, but it is distinct from pain.

The most common, idiopathic form of ulnar neuropathy at the elbow is more likely an existing structure of of the cubital tunnel (genetic). Idiopathic UNE does not arise from a change. So the language "becomes trapped" is misleading. Ischyros7 (talk) 21:16, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

I agree that the evidence is clear idiopathic ulnar neuropathy at the elbow arises from the structure one is born with, not a change in the anatomy. Dr311 (talk) 11:50, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

Title change -> ulnar neuropathy at the elbow?

Important to keep the elbow and wrist versions of ulnar neuropathy completely separate. They are very different entities. And it is better to refer to the pathophysiology. There is some evidence that traction might play a role in addition to pressure ("Entrapment"). Also "entrapment" is not the best choice of words because the nerve normally runs through the cubital tunnel and that is a good thing. Ulnar neuropathy at the elbow is just a tunnel that is a little narrow. But "entrapment" sounds sinister and abnormal. Ischyros7 (talk) 17:34, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

I am planning to change the title for the reasons detailed above. Please respond to this message to discuss. Ischyros7 (talk) 22:46, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

Whether the article is titled something like "ulnar nerve compression", "ulnar nerve entrapment", "ulnar neuralgia" or "ulnar neuropathy" should be on the basis of which one is most frequently used terminology among physicians and medical researchers. I do not think the decision should ever be influenced by how certain words sound. The term "nerve entrapment" is used precisely because it doesn't suggest a singular cause like "nerve compression" does. I don't have strong opinions on the article name beyond removing the word "idiopathic" as it's an unnecessary descriptor for the subject. Snake playing a saxaphone (talk) 23:50, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Physicians and medical researchers (myself included) often make mistakes. Much of the terminology in common use reflect common misconceptions and can be considered erroneous. So we cannot accept what exists as support for what is best. We must look to experimental evidence. And that experimental evidence must include cognitive science regarding how such errors happen through the inherently faulty guessing aspects (heuristics) of human cognition. We should expect terms and concepts to evolve with improved experimental evidence. Dr311 (talk) 11:53, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

Injury and common scenario discussion under "Etiology"

Injuries should be considered separately from idiopathic compressive ulnar neuropathy at the elbow. It's confusing to consider traumatic and atraumatic neuropathy together in the same web page.

Additionally, there is no evidence of a causal link between any activity and compressive neuropathy. Some of those listed could be activities associated with symptoms, but that's different from cause. Unecomeditor1 (talk) 19:33, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

"Ulnar Tunnel Syndrome" section

Because ulnar neuropathy at the wrist (Guyon canal) is quite different from idiopathic ulnar neuropathy at the cubital tunnel, it should have it's own page.

Wrist and elbow should be separate pages. Trauma and non-trauma should be separate pages. Unecomeditor1 (talk) 19:40, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 13 June 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. Consensus to move. Editors who believe the page is redundant should feel free to WP:BLANKANDREDIRECT, WP:PROD, or WP:AFD it. (closed by non-admin page mover) BilledMammal (talk) 05:25, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

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Idiopathic ulnar neuropathy at the elbow → Ulnar neuropathy at the elbow – Undiscussed page move, mostly has a cause. Also previously mentioned on talk page Iztwoz (talk) 09:28, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

Support. The name Ulnar neuropathy at the elbow is more generalized and is most likely what the reader is looking for when they search the term while idiopathic ulnar neuropathy at the elbow is more specefic and the idiopathic nature can be covered elsewhere in the article. CursedWithTheAbilityToDoTheMath (talk) 02:25, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

Ulnar neuropathy at the elbow could be from laceration or contusion. It can also be post-traumatic. I think it's important to consider ulnar neuropathy that arises from one's anatomy without other cause could be important. An understanding that a person who develops ulnar neuropathy, mostly likely carried that tendency to develop their ulnar neuropathy since birth, and there is no external cause or change seems important. Likely important enough to place in the title. And the term idiopathic is one that should, arguably, become part of everyday parlance because it is so important. Dr311 (talk) 11:56, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

@Dr311 I'm not sure what your point really is here. I'm not saying we should ignore the term idiopathic ulnar neuropathy at the elbow I'm just saying that it is just one of the many causes of ulnar neuropathy at the elbow and a generalized page for ulnar neuropathy at the elbow makes more sense. CursedWithTheAbilityToDoTheMath (talk) 22:55, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

OK. Let me try to be more clear.

I think it's confusing to mix in the most common reason for ulnar neuropathy by far--a pathophysiology that doesn't have a cause other than one's structure/anatomy genetically determined--with the trauma and other less common reasons to have a problem with this nerve.

Keeping those separately will help people more easily and accurately understand their ulnar nerve problem.

It would make more sense to group conditions based on the symptom of spontaneous small and ring finger paresthesia (tingling), including cervical radiculopathy, than to include all type of ulnar nerve pathophysiogy, most of which are very different entities and are not considered together with idiopathic ulnar neuropathy at the elbow. Dr311 (talk) 20:13, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

This is a contested technical request (permalink). ASUKITE 13:50, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

• Opened as this was requested as a revert at WP:RM/TR, but from reading the talk page it appears this page might benefit from a discussion (please feel free to submit alternatives with a valid argument if you have a better option, and note that I am not the nom)

Note: WikiProject Medicine has been notified of this discussion. ASUKITE 13:50, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

• I think that moving it to the more generic name is reasonable. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:07, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
  • Think instead of changing title page name, page is redundant and should be deleted – All material is covered on Ulnar neuropathy page and two separate pages exist one for ulnar tunnel syndrome (ulnar neuropathy at the wrist), and now cubital tunnel syndrome (ulnar neuropathy at the elbow).--Iztwoz (talk) 15:54, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

    Ah. I wasn't aware of that. I agree with deletion of this page. Dr311 (talk) 20:13, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Continue discussion on redundancy and removal of this page

The comments recently posted regarding the removal of this page due to redundancy seem valid. Can we continue this discussion or initiate this process? Unecomeditor1 (talk) 15:05, 22 June 2024 (UTC)