Talk:UFC on FX: Sotiropoulos vs. Pearson
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UFC on FX: Sotiropoulos vs. Pearson needs to be restored
[edit]It passes the notability guidelines as a major sports title is being fought for, namely the title of "The Ultimate Fighter: The Smashes Winner". That is actually a title and a TUF winner trophy is given to the winner.
Changes to format
[edit]I'm putting the entries in as I watch the event as I normally do. If you have an issue with the format being used for the entires, please discuss it here. If we get enough people who want to do it differently, I'll go back and change it. Please don't take it upon yourself to just decide to change things up on your own. Thanks!!Willdawg111 (talk) 23:53, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
- The table's current version is good. --LlamaAl (talk) 02:40, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
Removal of flags
[edit]MOS:FLAG does not allow flags to be used in tables of this type; more specifically, an RfC at WT:MMA upheld that this guideline definitely applies to MMA events because there are no "national" titles or teams. Note that you cannot declare a local consensus on this article to keep them, as site-wide consensus always trumps local consensus (see WP:CONLIMITED). Qwyrxian (talk) 14:00, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
- Come on, the flags are of importance here. UK vs Australia in The Ultimate Fighter: The Smashes. The fighters represent their countries. Also, MOS:FLAG does not forbid flags in sports statistics tables. In fact, it doesn't forbid or allow anything, as it is just a manual of style. Oskar Liljeblad (talk) 21:13, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
- I agree that for the fights relating to The Ultimate Fighter: The Smashes it would be appropriate to insert either the Aussie or UK flag, but the other fights no. Mtking (edits) 21:37, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
- Then you will need to go back to WP:MMA and carve out a special exemption. The consensus there was extremely clear--there is no "national" team or similar international competition, which is the only limitation allowed for flags in reporting sports results. And the MOS forbids all sorts of things--it lays out exactly what style our articles must follow; for example, you can't decide on one article that you're going to bold every other word because you think it looks good. Additionally, flags also fall under WP:NPOV, specifically WP:DUE, because they give undue importance to a person's nationality. That is, why add a flag, but not a marker indicating religious preference, or ethnicity, or gender, or what company they work for? There is no specific reason why nationality should be given prominence. Qwyrxian (talk) 23:57, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
- As the RfC closure states, flags will not be used unless the competition is established as taking place between fighters as a representative of a particular country. --LlamaAl (talk) 00:00, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
- That's correct. And that's why there's no flags here. In fact, as far as I know (in my limited knowledge of UFC), there are no "fights between representatives of a particular country"; rather, the UFC is worldwide organization representing the "best" in the field, with no particular country allegiances. The mere fact that there are flags in the background of the poster does not mean that they were "representing" a country. However, I've been known to be wrong before. Do you have any evidence that any fighters in this match were explicitly selected to be country representatives? That there was some sort of playoff to determine who represented each country, or some sort of ranking system that ranks players in countries separately, picking out the best from country A to fight the best from country B? Qwyrxian (talk) 11:41, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
- There is a case to be made that the two (or three) fights forming part of The Ultimate Fighter: The Smashes could be deemed representative the show talks about TeamAus and TeamUK, there is however no indication that the teams were chosen by a official representative board and does have the feel of a casting rather than of by merit. I won't be removing the flags for those three fights if they get reinserted as it is at best a gray area. Mtking (edits) 11:59, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
- There are many sports where competitors don't have to be chosen by some "official representative board" of the country they represent. Most racing sports are such sports. The flags are necessary here because some of the fighters don't have their own pages, so it is hard to figure out their nationality otherwise. I will therefore restore the flags for this event. Oskar Liljeblad (talk) 18:00, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
- There is a case to be made that the two (or three) fights forming part of The Ultimate Fighter: The Smashes could be deemed representative the show talks about TeamAus and TeamUK, there is however no indication that the teams were chosen by a official representative board and does have the feel of a casting rather than of by merit. I won't be removing the flags for those three fights if they get reinserted as it is at best a gray area. Mtking (edits) 11:59, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
- That's correct. And that's why there's no flags here. In fact, as far as I know (in my limited knowledge of UFC), there are no "fights between representatives of a particular country"; rather, the UFC is worldwide organization representing the "best" in the field, with no particular country allegiances. The mere fact that there are flags in the background of the poster does not mean that they were "representing" a country. However, I've been known to be wrong before. Do you have any evidence that any fighters in this match were explicitly selected to be country representatives? That there was some sort of playoff to determine who represented each country, or some sort of ranking system that ranks players in countries separately, picking out the best from country A to fight the best from country B? Qwyrxian (talk) 11:41, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
- As the RfC closure states, flags will not be used unless the competition is established as taking place between fighters as a representative of a particular country. --LlamaAl (talk) 00:00, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
- Then you will need to go back to WP:MMA and carve out a special exemption. The consensus there was extremely clear--there is no "national" team or similar international competition, which is the only limitation allowed for flags in reporting sports results. And the MOS forbids all sorts of things--it lays out exactly what style our articles must follow; for example, you can't decide on one article that you're going to bold every other word because you think it looks good. Additionally, flags also fall under WP:NPOV, specifically WP:DUE, because they give undue importance to a person's nationality. That is, why add a flag, but not a marker indicating religious preference, or ethnicity, or gender, or what company they work for? There is no specific reason why nationality should be given prominence. Qwyrxian (talk) 23:57, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
- I agree that for the fights relating to The Ultimate Fighter: The Smashes it would be appropriate to insert either the Aussie or UK flag, but the other fights no. Mtking (edits) 21:37, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
as I said I will not argue with you doing it for the fights relating to the The Ultimate Fighter: The Smashes, however if you wish to restore the flags for the other fights then please provide some sourcing as to there representative nature. Mtking (edits) 19:27, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
- Did you watch the show? Isn't it kind of obvious when the whole MO of this particular installation of TUF is to pit UK fighters against Australian fighters? Oskar Liljeblad (talk) 19:44, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
- MtKing is hitting on the right point here: just because the branding of the event was as a clash between two countries does not mean it is for purposes of MOS:FLAG or the MMA agreement. That is nothing but branding. And, again, your point that they don't have their own pages holds no merit; in fact violates WP:NPOV—why should we call attention to the nationality of a person rather than any of the other millions of personal facts about the person? Unless they were officially representing their country, they cannot have the flags.
- Furthermore, please note that all MMA articles are now under general sanctions (per this discussion). Any edit warring, particularly edit warring that is in violation of a site-wide consensus, can and will be met with administrative actions, including blocks and/or topic bans. While I'm arguably now WP:INVOLVED on this particular page (possibly not, but I'll err on the side of caution) and thus can't block myself, if there is any further edit warring with respect to this matter I will find an admin to take action. If you want, you could ask for clarification at WT:MMA if the new restrictions on flags apply here; if you do, please notify this talk page. Qwyrxian (talk) 22:21, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
- Did you watch the show? Isn't it kind of obvious when the whole MO of this particular installation of TUF is to pit UK fighters against Australian fighters? Oskar Liljeblad (talk) 19:44, 16 December 2012 (UTC)