Talk:Treaty of Gulistan

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Comments

The khanates Karabakh, Guba, Talish, Sheki were independent. This is proven, for example, by the fact that they minted their own coins. They had Ambassadors in foreign countries (e.g., Russia for Karabakh khanate). And most importantly, they signed individual treaties on accession to the Russian Empire, separate from the Gulistan and Turkmenchay treaties. Obviously, the Russian tsar would not bother signing treaties with vassals of another empire -- only with independent rulers. That's why traditionally, the Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs rebuffed all Iranian claims to lands north of Araxes, stating that even before the Gulistan Treaty was signed, many of those khanates were independent and voluntarily joined the Russian empire. Some references about the independence of the khanates can be found in John F. Baddeley's 1908 book, for example. Others are clear from the Great Soviet Encyclopedia and its map. --adil 04:44, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Here's from John F. Baddeley, "The Russian Conquest of the Caucasus", Longman, Green and Co., London: 1908. "Potto [Russian military historian and general] sums up Tsitsianoff's [the first general, commander of Russian army] achievements and character as follows: "In the short time he passed there (in Transcaucasia) he managed to completely alter the map of the country. He found it composed of minutely divided, independent Muhammadan States leaning upon Persia, namely, the khanates of Baku, Shirvan, Shekeen, Karabagh, Gandja, and Erivan, to which must be added the territory of the Djaro-Bielokani Lesghians, the pashalik of Akhaltsikh..." (p. 71)

Then again when describing the aftermath of Tsitsinaov's murder: "The Georgian princes found in it a fresh opportunity to pursue their personal ambitions; the Muhammadan khans renewed hope of independence; while Turkey and Persia were only too ready to encourage all who on any pretext, or for any reason, were hostile to Russia." (p. 73)

Also, this is a key quote, showing best what Gulistan Treaty really was, and what it was not: "...an armistice was followed in October by the preliminary treaty of Gulistan. Russia by this instrument was confirmed in possession of all the khanates -- Karabagh, Gandja, Shekeen, Shirvan, Derbend, Kouba, and Baku, together with part of Talish and the fortress of Lenkoran. Persia further abandoned all pretensions to Daghestan, Georgia, Mingrelia, Imeretia, and Abkhazia." (p. 90)

"One by one the khanates and other independent States, by policy or by arms, were being brought within the fold of the empire." (p. 135)

"Count Zouboff in 1796 had transferred the throne of Shirvan to his cousin, Kasim, but no sooner had the Russians retired that Moustafa recovered possession, and retained his independence until the fall of Gandja and conquest of Karabagh in Tsitsianoff's time. He had the submitted to Russian suzeiranty..." (p. 139)

"Of all the khanates, Talish, the most distant, alone remained independent, for the reason that its rulers were implacably hostile to Persia." (p. 144)--adil 01:12, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

recent revision of the page

user:Azerbaijani, do you realize that your edit, wording, made the article less precise? Compare it with the version before your edit: [1] Here's why: you leave "All the cities, towns, and villages of Georgia, including all the villages and towns on the coast of the Black Sea, such as: Megrelia, Abkhazia, Imeretia, Guria;"

Do you know that "Guria" is Georgia? Do you know that "Georgia", when clicked, takes the person to the modern-day Republic of Georgia page, whilst in case of Azerbaijan you change to:

"Baku (now capital of the Republic of Azerbaijan), Shirvan, Derbend, Karabakh, Ganja, Sheki, Guba, part of the khanate of Talysh;"

Compare it with:

"All the cities, towns, and villages of Georgia, including all the villages and towns on the coast of the Black Sea, such as: Megrelia, Abkhazia, Imeretia, Guria; Almost all the cities, towns and villages of Azerbaijan, including: Baku (now capital of Azerbaijan Republic), Shirvan, Derbend, Karabakh, Ganja, Sheki, Guba, part of the khanate of Talysh;"

Here it identified, properly, both of the modern day republics, and groups the Russian conquests and otherwise aquisitions appropriately. I am not reverting you, letting you study the subject more if you need. However, you can just revert to my version and then edit other aspects of the page. Adding the Gulistan Treaty's tex might also be good if you can find the text. --adil 05:23, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Georgia existed back then, the Republic of Azerbaijan did not. You had put in Almost all the cities, towns and villages of Azerbaijan, including: which is false, as none of those cities or villages were in Azerbaijan at the time. Also, do not attempt to put articles into the treaty that were NOT THERE!

Here are the exact terms of the treaty:

  1.  Persia (Iran) loses all its territories to the north of Aras River and is forced via this treaty to recognize Russia's authority over them henceforth. These lands include:
     -	All the cities, towns, and villages of Dagestan.
     -	All the cities, towns, and villages of Georgia, including all the villages and towns on the coast of the Black Sea,
     -	Baku in Arran province (now capital of modern Azerbaijan Republic),
     -	Derbent,
     -	Shirvan,
     -	Megrelia,
     -	Karabakh,
     -	Ganja,
     -	Shekin,
     -	Abkhazia,
     -	Mughan,
     -	Imeretia,
     -	Guria,
     -	The khanates of Talysh.

  2.   Iran loses all rights to navigate the Caspian Sea, and Russia is granted exclusive rights to station its military fleet in the Caspian Sea.
  3. Both countries agree on the establishment of free trade, with Russians having free access to conduct business anywhere in Iran.
  4. Russia in return promises to support Abbas Mirza as heir to the Persian throne after the death of Fath Ali Shah. (which did not happen)

This is taken from CAIS (University of London), and your replacement of this is a direct violation of Wikipedia's policies. The articles of the treaty need to be replaced by the above.

Adil, no matter how many times I have explained this to you, you still do not seem to understand wikipedia's policies against POV and against OR!Azerbaijani 13:28, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

OK, it is evident you are acting in bad faith. First, I don't know your "CAIS" source, but if it's taken directly "from CAIS (University of London)" then you have committed plagiarism and copyright violation, as you provided no source.

Meanwhile, no, "Georgia" did not exist back then, there were several kingdoms, just like there were several Azerbaijani kingdoms (khanates). The historians and encyclopedias correctly identify them as Azerbaijan and Azerbaijani, so no need to resist this. --adil 07

34, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

There is no copyvio violation (read the policies before you make false accusations ) and I have sourced it. Do not remove it again. Also, as I have to tell you over and over again, keep the POV and OR out of Wikipedia.Azerbaijani 13:46, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

yes, you did copyvio violation, and have inserted the link only now. Yet still failed to identify it properly -- it's an Iranian POV source and will be removed immediately. --adil 23:19, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

You are not one to talk about Iranian POV sources (CAIS is far from an Iranian POV source!), dont you remember Ganja? Also, I have cited everything properly.Azerbaijani 01:25, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Azerbaijani, please, provide references for your edits. This is highly sensitive topic and your POV is simply not acceptable. I also added an Iranian source, which clearly indicates that as early as 1795 Karabakh khanate already pursued independent foreign policy, and so did Erivan. Considering also the Kurekchai treaty between Russian Czar and Karabakh khan makes Iranian claims completely somewhat void. Atabek 00:04, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

What are you talking about? I have sourced my edits, are you serious?!Azerbaijani 01:25, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

You added it only after I pointed your attention that you are comitting a copyright violation since you did not source you info, but proudly declared that it is exactly based on CAIS. Meanwhile, that CAIS is a POV Iranian source, which is in line with your original research about the alleged difference between Georgia and Azerbaijan, as national concepts, at the time of Gulistan Treaty. We have plenty of sources showing that the khanates were independent and they were Azerbaijani, and they joined Russia before 1813. Gulistan Treaty only confirmed them as part of Russia and relinquished any claims from Iran to these countries. --adil 02:20, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

As if the new quote Atabek provided, and several quotes from Baddeley I provided above were not enough, here are a few more:

Baku "fell into the hands of Persia in the sixteenth century, although it maintained its autonomy under a separate Khan. The Russians finally stormed and took it in 1806, and in a few months' time it will have been a century under the dominion of Russia". Source: James Dodds Henry, "Baku, an Eventuful History", Ayer Publishing 1977 Reprint of the 1905 ed. published by A. Constable, London, p. 3. [2]

"This success caused the Chans of Derbent, Baku, Karabagh, Karaikaitakh, and the Sultan of the Avares, to take the oath of fidelity to Russia." Source: Francis Rawdon Chesney. "The Russo-Turkish Campaigns of 1828 and 1829: With a View of the Present State of Affairs in the...", 1854, p. 27. [3] --adil 02:23, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Iranica says:

It provided for cessation of all hostilities between Russia and Persia (Article 1) and a demarcation of the frontier between them on the basis of the status quo ad presentem, i.e., with each side essentially keeping the territory then under its control. The frontier between the two powers was demarcated along a line from "Aduna Bazar [AÚdina Ba@z@a@r], running direct towards the plain of Moghan [Mog@a@n] to the ford of the Anas [sic, read Aras] at Yuln Bulook [Yedi Boluk], up the Anas [Aras] to the Junction of the Capennuk Chace [Kapanak Ùa@y] at the back of the hill of Mekri [Meqri]; from thence the boundary of Karabagh [Qara@ba@g@] and Nukshivan [Nakòjava@n] is from above the mountains of Alighuz [AÚlda@guz?] to Dualighuz [Daralagez], and thence the boundary of Karabagh, Nukshivan, Erivand [Ereva@n], and also part of Georgia, and of Kuzah [Qaza@q] and Shums-ud-deen Loo [ˆams-al-Dinlu] is separated by Eishuk Meidaun [Iæik Meyda@n]; from Eishuk Meidaun the line is the chain of mountains on the right and the river of Humya Chummun [H®amza Ùaman], and from the tops of the mountains of [Panbak to ˆura-gol and from there along the ridge of] Alighuz [AÚla@guz/Aragats] it runs along the village of Shoorgil [ˆura-gol] and between those of the village of Mystery [Mastara?] until it reaches the river of Arpachai [AÚrpa Ùa@y]." Since the situation in T®a@leæ was still contested, it was left for a subsequent commission to resolve (Article 2). The Persian shah was obliged to recognize the sovereignty of the tsar over Georgia, Mingrelia, Abkhazia, Ganja, Qara@ba@g@, Qobba, Darband, Baku, Da@g@esta@n, ˆakki, and other territories (Article 3). This not only reflected the Persian loss of sovereignty in the Caucasus, but also undercut Ottoman claims to some of these territories (Atkin, p. 144). The Russians gained the right "to recognize the [Persian] Prince who shall be nominated heir-apparent, and to afford him assistance in case he should require it to suppress any opposing party" (Article 4). This deliberately ambiguous language was intended to get around a specific Russian demand to support ¿Abba@s Mirza@ as successor to the throne (having dropped an earlier, and insulting, demand to include formal recognition of Fathá-¿Ali as shah in the treaty; see Atkin, p. 143). While this article may have been intended to allay fears that rival princes would try to use the territorial losses incurred under the treaty as a means of discrediting and replacing ¿Abba@s Mirza@ as heir-apparent, it also set a dangerous precendent in that it laid the groundwork for Russia not merely to "recognize" but in fact to approve (or implicitly to veto) the designation of a Persian crown prince. Russia was also guaranteed the right of access for its commercial ships to Persian ports on the Caspian and the exclusive right to maintain ships-of-war on the Caspian (Article 5). The remaining articles (6-11) arranged for exchange of prisoners, appointment of ambassadors, commercial relations, duties on goods, and other routine matters (text of the treaty in Hurewitz, I, pp. 197-99; but note the variations in the Persian version of the agreement given in E¿tema@d-al-SaltÂana, Montazáam-e na@sáeri, ed. Rezµwa@ni, III, pp. 1510-17; Mahámud, I, pp. 174-85; T®aba@tÂaba@÷i Majd, pp. 77-83).Azerbaijani 03:17, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

And, your point? First, Iranica is edited by an Iranian, Ehsan Yarshater, so let's keep that in mind. Second, it says nothing that contravenes any of the above, and nothing that helps your POV. Pay particular attention to this line, which is essentially the only relevant here: "The Persian shah was obliged to recognize the sovereignty of the tsar over Georgia, Mingrelia, Abkhazia, Ganja, Qara@ba@g@, Qobba, Darband, Baku, Da@g@esta@n, ˆakki, and other territories (Article 3)." Note that the wording is more or less precise and correct -- Iran was obliged to recognize the sovereignty, i.e., give up its claims forever, as opposed to "transfer", "give", "lose", etc., lands north of Araxes of/to Russia. Do you understand the difference between "obliged to recognize the sovereignty" vs. "giving/transferring/awarding/losing/" of territories? Indeed, right after that quote, here's what Iranica says:

"The treaty of Golesta@n was naturally a great disappointment for the Persians and was bitterly opposed by officials such as Mirza@ Bozorg. Although Persia had performed reasonably well in the war prior to AÚsála@nduz and had counted heavily on Britain to protect its interests in the negotiations, it had not only had to recognize the Russian position in Georgia but give up any claim to authority over the khanates of the eastern Caucasus and make other major political and economic concessions."

Finally, we have the full text of the treaty in the original Russian available to us, and here's the precise wording of the article 3:

СТАТЬЯ ТРЕТЬЯ

Его Шахское Величество в доказательство искренней приязни Своей к Его Величеству Императору Всероссийскому, сим торжественно признает, как за себя, так и за Высоких Преемников Персидскаго престола, принадлежащими в собственность Российской Империи Ханства: Карабагское и Ганджинское, обращенное ныне в провинцию под названием Елисаветпольской. Также Ханства: Шекинское, Ширванское, Дербентское, Кубинское, Бакинское и Талышинское с теми землями сего Ханства, кои ныне состоят во власти Российской Империи. При том весь Дагестан, Грузию с Шурагельскою провинциею, Имеретию, Гурию, Мингрелию и Абхазию, равным образом все владения и земли, находящиеся между постановленною ныне границею и Кавказскою линиею, с прикосновенными к сей последней и к Каспийскому морю землями и народами. --adil 05:30, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Your OR and POV is really really getting tiring. The Iranian monarchs thought of the Caucasian lands as theres, whether sovereign or not, it was considered Iranian territory by Iranian kings. None of what you wrote says that the Caucasian lands were not Iranian, and Iranica simply says that Iran had to accept Russia's sovereignty over the regions that it had conquered, as the treaty outlined. Indeed, since the time of the Safavids, to the time of Nadir Shah, and throughout the Qajar dynasty the lands of the Caucasus were Iranian in the eyes of Iran. Before the break out of the first war with Russia, Iran minted gold and silver coins in Erivan, Ganja, Nukha, and Shamikha.

Secondly, why do you keep reverting the terms of the treaty? Also, your criticism of Iranica, one of the most reliable sources of Iranian history in the world (see this for example: [4]), is really getting ridiculous, and will get you NOWHERE.Azerbaijani 22:39, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Additions

That was a mistake nevermind that. Artaxiad 22:36, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Chechnya

"12 Oct 1813 Sovereignty ceded by Iran to Russia by Treaty of Gulistan"[5] Anyone more info? - Pieter_v (talk) 22:15, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Map incorrect...??

My research seems to indicate that the map used here is incorrect, as what is now the Azerbaijan–Iran border was fixed by this treaty. The map used suggests that the Gulistan border was fixed entirely along the Aras river, with south-east Azerbaijan only added to Russia after the Treaty of Turkmenchai.WisDom-UK (talk) 21:27, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

New Map

Hello, I've created a new map of the Caucasus after the Treaty of Gulistan which is much more accurate than the currently used map. Thanks to Benyamin for helping with the borders of Talysh Khanate and how the khanate was split up after the Treaty of Gulistan. The names of cities and lakes have also been changed to align with how they were called during the said period. Here's the map — CuriousGolden (talk·contrib) 11:36, 6 September 2020 (UTC)

I think the current map is better since it shows a before and after, with more clear borders (the Khanate borders are kinda hard to make sense of, can't see what Khanate is what for example). Also, your map is a bit too zoomed in imho. Perhaps you could do something a la [6] or [7] to the map so it shows what areas the Qajars lost. Atm this is a good map of Caucasus in that period, but not much for the Treaty of Gulistan. Perhaps a date/description could be added as well to the box? Something like Caucasus in xxx. --HistoryofIran (talk) 16:47, 8 September 2020 (UTC)