Talk:Tram/Archive 4

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Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Archive 4

Origin of "trolley"

It was only late in life that I encountered the use of the word "trolley" to refer to a wheeled cart, of the sort used, for instances, to gather used dishes from a restaurant table, or to carry items in a hospital. I suspect that such usage of this word might be more commonplace in the U.K.

When perusing Scientific American magazine (probably around 1995?), I noted in its section devoted to what it had published a century earlier, a striking image of one of the earliest tramcars powered by an overhead wire. The traveling current collector at the top of the pole had two wheels, and rested on top of the wire. (The wire was supported from below by J-shaped supports hanging from an aerial cable, as I recall).

The little wheeled frame resembled a wheeled cart, a trolley, and it seemed believable that this would have been the origin of the usage.

Someone with access to back issues could research the [hundred years ago in Scientific American] column to find the image. Likely date limits would be 1990 and 1998.

It's just possible that articles about [Mr.] van der Poele, (Vander Poele?), the electrical engineer, might have pertinent images.

For what it's worth, I clearly remember, as a youngster, seeing (single) wheeled collectors at the ends of poles in Boston trolley cars. (I also witnessed steam shovels operating.) I'm now 73.

Regards,

Nikevich (talk) 22:28, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

I believe you are thinking of Chas. J. van Depoele; his first experimental lines were at Chicago, South Bend and Trono, 1882/3, 1884, and 1885 respectively. (Hadda look that up.) The Street Railway Journal vol. 10, no.2 pp 111-115 Feb. 1894 gives a good, contemporaneous summation of early traction pioneers. Anmccaff (talk) 01:04, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

Concerning this edit [1] and the ones before: of course there are many who think the word, or the word in this application, is telescoped from "traveller" and "roller". Such superficial solutions always appeal to one's fantasy and lingustic laypeople seldom dig deeper. That's called folk etymology. It doesn't change the fact that you should dig deeper than that. If you do, you see that the word has an earlier history that greatly lessens the likelihood that it was invented that way in this application either. -83.248.231.252 (talk) 15:48, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

Yup, but you shouldn't ascrive folk-etymology to a single source, generally, unless you know they are the Ur-vector. Posts's work is an "e.g.", not an "i.e", to put it another way. Anmccaff (talk) 19:39, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

Nor should you say that something is a widely held belief without being able to back it up, unless it can be called common knowledge. Which I doubt this can, perhaps especially outside North America. Post still happens to be the only reference. But apart from that, I don't object to the present text. -83.248.231.252 (talk) 20:35, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

Well, that's the problem with folk-tales, ain't it? they tend to be oral, not written, and they often can circulate differently in different groups of a population. But I take your point, and it might be worth hearing from other Northamericanistanis about whether they've heard variants. It's also worth noting that replacing a schwa with a Y was common in some dialects - "Santy Claus", "Sody Pop", &cet, and much of the impetus, and capital, for electric traction came from the non-rhotic parts of New England. This might simply be the word troller, IOW, much like the Mainer's caulk boots became the Northwesterner's cork boots. Anmccaff (talk) 22:29, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

Yes, that is a dilemma. And yes, it might be worth it. As for schwa > y in this case, it's an interesting guess but I doubt it. However, I will not elaborate because it would be just original "research" anyway. (Or gut feeling, i.a. about the ways parts tend and don't tend to come to stand for a whole, and supported by the word's earlier history…) -83.248.231.252 (talk) 00:35, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

Oh yes, except for one thing: schwa > y between syllables is one thing, but does (did) it ever occur at the end of an expression? If not, some very common expression "troller + (some other word)" would have to be found. -83.248.231.252 (talk) 00:43, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

Aside from "-car", "-wire", and last-but-not-cetera, "-pole?" No examples, though, at the first pass. Anmccaff (talk) 01:41, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

Not necessarily aside from them, but you'll have to show that they and any others were common enough to cause a *"troller- > trolley-" to become a standalone "trolley"; you'll have to make such a development plausible with, preferably, confirmed examples from other words, examples of words like "trollercar" etc., and you'll have to make plausible that the pronunciation with schwa > y had sufficient social status to gain such a position that it could effect changes of that kind in the formal and written language. All that against the evidence of there being already a word "trolley" with a fairly well-documented history and probably a number of British (and other) examples which cannot be explained by schwa > y. So I still place my bet on the traditional explanation. -83.248.231.252 (talk) 03:18, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

Oh, I think there's where I'd put most of my money as well, and that's what the article should mostly reflect. Anmccaff (talk) 18:06, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

Last steam tram in Italy

Citation about the "Peg leg" Milano-Castano Primo tram: this famous tramline closed in 1957 http://www.museoscienza.org/approfondimenti/documenti/gamb_de_legn/ (from National Science and Technology Museum website) The very last steam tram was the Monza-Trezzo (North of Milan) that closed in 1958, but this line shared steam locomotives and battery cars. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.4.137.108 (talk) 09:17, 19 February 2016 (UTC)

Largest network in the world (captions)

I removed the caption, since a) it's unsourced and b) it has nothing to do with the photo, which shows various (historical) tram-models, not the tram network. The reason I removed a Russian equivalent claim (as a caption) is that the photo isn't very illustrative. There are better ones. Kleuske (talk) 20:12, 5 August 2016 (UTC)

No Kleuske. Kotyjiji (talk) 20:15, 5 August 2016 (UTC)

No what? No, it isn't very illustrative, just a tram at night? Am I right in surmising your mastery of English is not quite sufficient to argue your case? Kleuske (talk) 20:31, 5 August 2016 (UTC)

Actual systems can vary greatly from this. see Chester and Horvath

This paper points out, among other things, that total energy costs, including energy required for infrastructure and equipment, is very usage dependent. Anmccaff (talk) 08:05, 29 January 2017 (UTC)

Attribution

Text and references copied from Sidney Howe Short to Tram. See former article's history for list of contributors. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 15:52, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

Gearless streetcars

Brush's gearless design was a minor blip, a blind alley which went precisely nowhere in transit, for rather obvious reasons. Why highlight it over his more useful work? Anmccaff (talk) 16:28, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

External links modified

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Straßenbahn

"Straßenbahn" redirects here. But you don't find the word Straßenbahn in the header or in the introduction part. Instead of putting it (somehow) there, I will add it to the photo's text, where it fits very well. --Schwab7000 (talk) 14:16, 2 August 2017 (UTC)

External links modified

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Orphaned references in Tram

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Tram's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "Bellis":

From History of trams: Bellis, Mary. "History of Streetcars and Cable Cars". Retrieved 2007-01-10.
From Wheelchair: Bellis, Mary. "History of the Wheelchair". thoughtco.com. Retrieved April 14, 2017.

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 17:03, 24 January 2018 (UTC)

Steel vs Rubber quote

I'm reviving an old discussion in Talk:Tram/Archive_3#Steel_vs_Rubber_quote. I have edited the advantages section, stating that: "Vehicles run more efficiently compared to similar vehicles that use rubber tyres, since the rolling resistance of steel is lower.". However, I have read the mentioned discussion and I'm no longer sure of this statement. Anyway, it would be the real motive why trams should be more efficient than trolleybuses. That's why I'm leaving the edition. I'd like you to review this.

--Niksfish (talk) 05:35, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

"Носовой обтекатель" трамвайя такой же какой и человека. Перпендикулярный.

Главное от трамвая человеку - ноги свои не бить. Человеку. А он - не человек. Не жалко ?

Может здесь кто услышит ? Рядом со стыком рельсов предлагаю поставить третий рельс. У которого нет стыка. Он и нужен без наличия .. ямины или чего. Напротив!

А колёса - (вагонов) и трамвайя тоже - делать с двумя ободами.

Или зажмётесь от скупости ?

нда .. 85.140.17.64 (talk) 15:42, 13 October 2019 (UTC)

Roof

I notice that most of our pictures of streetcars made in the 19th and early 20th centuries show a double-roof, the higher part supported by struts. Later ones are simpler. Any name for this feature? Any reason why it was present early, and absent later? Jim.henderson (talk) 15:18, 15 December 2019 (UTC)

@Jim.henderson: That's a clerestory roof. They were indeed popular on early tramcars. They let extra light and air into the cars, and were said to allow gentlemen wearing tall top hats to stand without removing their headgear. They did become less popular after the First World War, perhaps related to the loss of popularity of tall hats, though I suspect more a cost[cutting exercise. The Mirror Cracked (talk) 15:36, 15 December 2019 (UTC)

Ah. My question was prompted by the Tourist trolley article. Thank you, The Mirror Cracked, for a prompt and precise answer. Jim.henderson (talk) 16:06, 15 December 2019 (UTC)

Single-ended vs double-ended.

The two photos in this section need attributions as to in which cities these vehicles operate. Help, please.Albert Isaacs (talk) 00:01, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

"sometimes simply strung, sometimes on a catenary.[2"

This line seems wrong. A catenary is the shape in which a uniform chain or flexible wire hangs between points of support. So a "simply strung" copper wire at rest will closely approximate a catenary, unless the wire or wires are very thick and stiff. Of course it will be distorted by contact with the trolley and by wind. — Preceding unsigned comment added by David R. Ingham (talk • contribs) 00:55, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Technically, you are correct. But in tramway overhead consisting of a single wire (the trolley/contact wire), the mass per unit length and the tension in the wire are such that it does not really appear to have any significant drop between supports. When the trolley/contact wire is supported from another wire (sometimes on tramways but almost always on railways), that upper wire does have the form of a visible catenary. In that case, the word "catenary" is applied to the supporting wire, and the whole arrangement is referred to as "catenary overhead" or, sometimes, just "catenary". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Shrdlu junction (talk • contribs) 00:16, 4 October 2016 (UTC)

Main photo

The quaint picture of a Tatra T3 - doesn't really showcase the current state of trams/streetcars in 2020 - most of which are now low floor, contemporary vehicles. Any suggestions on a main photo replacement? Turini2 (talk) 13:39, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

Melbourne Trams

The article states that the Melbourne tram system is "generally recognised as one of the largest in the world". This is not true, it is generally recognised as THE largest system in the world. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.45.209.198 (talk) 13:24, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

Trams and light rail

There is the list headed "Other large transit networks that operate streetcar and light rail systems include". At least for some of them, I wonder what the "light rail systems" included are. This is true for example for Leipzig, which has classic tramways and railway trains, and nothing else. Perhaps the S-Bahn is included here, but that is definitely heavy rail (legally, an S-Bahn train is a railway train like any other in Germany). Plus if S-Bahn is included, cities like Berlin should show up as well. The list contains Riga, but in Riga there are trams and railways (and trolleybuses, but these can't count as "light rail", since they have no rails). The railways, being broad gauge, are actually pretty heavy, nobody would describe them as "light rail". The same is true for Iasi (not broad gauge, but still nothing resembling light rail in Iasi). So many inclusions in this list seem dubious.91.125.192.100 (talk) 21:36, 11 August 2021 (UTC)