Talk:Toronto Maple Leafs/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

Random Stuff

Someone keeps adding this to the "Following" section: "Typically fans have severe mental or drinking problems in order to create the illusion of a team that has a chance. The people who follow the leafs hold on to the idea that the leafs have a chance and despite 40 years of being completely unsuccessful as a team. Management does not plan on improving the quality of the team because the fans so blindly follow the team."

--Could someone edit the Ballard years section? I'm no fan of Ballard but it's biased to the point of sounding bitter and amateurish (no offence to whoever wrote it).

Someone please change the spelling of the word "COLORS" in the infor box on the right hand side to read "COLOURS". This is a Canadian club and should reflect our style (proper) of English. Thanks.

Can't be done. Those infoboxes are standard templates used league-wide. RGTraynor 21:29, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

I eliminated the "Fan loyalty" section and transferred its text to the "Following" section. To me, the fans' loyalty can just as easily be addressed under the "Following" section. Also, I eliminated the last line of the text, as it said something along the lines of: "as long as Leaf fans continue to pour money into the coffers of the ownership, there is no reason to believe the team's Stanley Cup drought will ever end." This sounded a bit too biased to me, and in any case there is no evidence to prove that that is the sole reason for the Leafs' lack of success. Gujuguy 21:04, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

NOTE: It was me, not Gujuguy who created the Contemporary Section for the Maple Leafs. Please don't take credit for other people's work, but thanks for editing my section and removing the bias. But again, please do not take credit for other people's work. it're really not cool !!! - MC (check my IP)

-- I apologize if it appeared as though I was trying to take credit for your work, MC. The thought of doing that never even entered my mind for a second. I was simply trying to remove some of the bias that I felt existed in the section, that's all. Again, it was never my intention to take credit for your work, and I apologize if it looked that way. Gujuguy 01:55, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Hey Gujuguy !! I thought you were trying to take credit for my work.. It appeared you were trying to take credit. Thanks for clearing it up and doing some edit work!

Feel free to edit my contemporary section on the Toronto Maple Leafs. Some of argued that it is Bias. Feel free to edit and remove the bias from the paragraphs. Thanks.

-- I removed a bit of information from the contemporary paragraphs to remove a bit of the bias, specifically the part about Cujo wanting to leave the Leafs because they had no intention of building a Cup-winning team. I don't remember him saying anything like that when he left for Detroit. Gujuguy 05:27, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

-- Well, he didn't so much say it as imply it. I believe his words were something along the lines of "a team with a real chance". His meaning was clear, and has alienated himself from the same fans who used to worship him. This should probably be recognized. Anyone have video or transcript of Curtis Joseph's departure press conference to clear this up? 70.28.104.175 23:20, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps "New York Islanders" should be removed from the "rivals" list? It seems like a one time playoff rivalry and not something that perpetuates itself over the years, unlike, say, Ottawa or Montreal.

Should the baseball team be mentioned here as well? Or should a separate article be created? Adam Bishop 03:24, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Little question: why are the team the Maple Leafs and not the Maple Leaves? 81.156.162.8 01:04, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Apparently because "Maple Leaf" is a proper name, and so the plural simply adds an "S" rather than following the usual rules. Just as the correct plural of Land Rover's Discovery car is "Discoverys" rather than "Discoveries". Loganberry 01:54, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Actually, It's because Conn Smythe, an Irish immigrant, had poor grammar. when asked to change the name of the team from the "Toronto St. Pat's" to something more patriotic, he pluralized Leaf incorrectly 207.236.151.102 19:28, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

Smythe was not an Irish immigrant, he was born in Toronto. It is doubtful that he had "poor grammar," since his father is described in Douglas Hunter's War Games: Conn Smythe and Hockey's Fighting Men (Toronto: Viking, 1996) as a "poet, essayist and Dickens enthusiast" (page 27), who emigrated to Toronto and became a journalist, rising to editor of the Toronto World newspaper. Conn was educated at Upper Canada College and the University of Toronto. "Maple Leafs" as a nickname of baseball and hockey teams dates back at least to the 1870s, with the Guelph Maple Leafs, an early professional baseball team.'Munson66 16:21, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Actually, he was trying to cash in on the popularity of Toronto's minor league baseball team, who had been called the Maple Leafs for thirty years at that point.

I believe it's actually a reference to Conn Smythe's WW1 battalion where each soldier was said to be a Maple Leaf, and they referred to themselves as Maple Leafs. I've heard the story many times but never actually seen confirmation of this. In that case gramatically as Loganberry says "Leaf" becomes a proper name. Whether intentional or not, from a branding angle, it's quite brilliant.

The story of a "Maple Leaf Regiment" is related in several editions of Andrew Podnieks' Blue and White Book (Toronto: ECW Press, 1996 and 1997, and Vancouver: Greystone, 2001). However, I have yet to find a unit with this name. Smythe served in the 40th (Sportsmen's) Battery in WW1 -- a name he revived in WW2, as a major, when he took over the 30th Battery of the 7th Toronto Regiment, and stocked it with members of his U of Toronto Varsity hockey teams from the '20s, the Mann Cup-winning Mimico Mountaineers lacross team, and sportswriters such as Ted Reeve. Buck Houle, later associated with the WHA Toronto Toros, was a member of the 30th. In World War I, however, many Canadian units featured the maple leaf prominently on their cap badges (see this website: http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-badges/cef_001-025.htm). I don't doubt that the image would have been important to Smythe, as a statement of Canadian identity. As others observe, the Toronto Maple Leafs baseball team was also prominent, having won the 1926 International League pennant and sweeping the Louisville Colonels of the American Association, 5 games to 0, to take the Little World Series of '26. Munson66 16:39, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Who the heck is "Graham Wilson"? I'm associated with the Society for International Hockey Research, and edited an important book on the NHL's early history, Deceptions and Doublecross: How the NHL Conquered Hockey, by Joe Nieforth and Morey Holzman (Toronto: Dundurn Press, 2002). Never came across the name Graham Wilson before. If anyone was driving the NHA/NHL agenda, it was George Kennedy of the Canadiens and Sam Lichtenhein of the Wanderers. Quebec's Mike Quinn was not a strong presence, nor was former NHA president Frank Robinson. The Ottawa management was tangled and prone to infighting. Frank Calder stepped into the power vacuum as NHL president.Munson66 16:39, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

--Hey folks, I just thought I'd throw a minor niggling point in here... Mutual Street Arena was NOT the only artificial ice east of Manitboa at the time, or so I recall. I grew up in Grimsby, Ontario, and seem to recall mention of a fruit storehouse which housed artificial ice during the winter (because of the building's cooling properties). This building was apparently in use for a couple of decades and housed hockey during the winters. One of the players that may have used this ice was Cy Wentworth, who had a 13 year NHL career with the Blackhawks, Maroons, and Canadiens. (Stats from page 818, Total Hockey, Total Sports Publishing, New York, 1998) I'm in Vancouver now, but am going to Grimsby in March, 2007, and will confirm or retract this by quoting Grimsby's town history book 'Annals of the Forty'. If anyone else has a copy of this, or is in Grimsby and can check the microfilm of the old issues of the Grimsby Independent at the Library, knock yourself out!

  --Hevato

    As it turns out, someone removed this from the article, but not out of necessity. "In the summer of 1921, the first Grimsby Arena was started under the direction of the Town Engineer...for publice askating and hockey." (Our Little Town p.112... 1979 Grimsby Historical Society / Rieger Press).  Cheers and Go Leafs Go!  Hevato

List of Toronto Maple Leafs players

I have started the List of Toronto Maple Leafs players. I was surpised to see that there wasn't one already. I was wondering, since we now have a place to put all the Leafs, could we shorten the "Not to be forgotten" list? It does appear to be a bit too long. We need some sort of 'limit' to the number of players in "Not to be forgotten". Masterhatch 4 August 2005

PS When you add players to the Maple Leafs page, could you also add the same player here :List of Toronto Maple Leafs players. Thanks! Masterhatch 5 August 2005

I don't see the point in this list when we have Category:Toronto Maple Leafs players. -- Jao 11:45, August 5, 2005 (UTC)

That category only shows Leafs players who have articles on Wiki and only players that have that category added to them. The List of Toronto Maple Leafs players is an attempt to list all of the Leafs players whether they have articles on Wiki or not. Masterhatch 5 August 2005

I've compiled the list of current Leafs players back on September 27th, 2005, using the New York Rangers wikipedia page as a format guide. In doing so, I replaced the "current notable Leafs" section. Amchow78 29 September 2005

Hall of Famers

In doing my edits league wide, it struck me that the Boston HOF entry was over twice as long as Toronto's, and that wasn't right. I was shocked that the Kid Line (Conacher, Primeau, Jackson) hadn't been included, and I bet others aren't as well. It might be a while before I get to it, so if someone more plugged into the Leafs beats me to it, terrific! RGTraynor 08:43, August 27, 2005 (UTC)

Questionable Feat?

Ummm... what's the point of this edit by 207.236.151.102? I don't think it needs to be there, or at the very least re-worded to eliminate this attempt to disqualify the act. ccwaters 19:08, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

I just reverted it on POV. The poster might consider the feat "questionable," but Coleman doesn't breathe a word of it and that's the only major contemporary source at hand. In any event, given that Toronto racked up 9-3 and 3-0 wins in their comeback, it may have been that Scotty Bowman, Toe Blake, Punch Imlach and Herb Brooks put together couldn't have saved Detroit. RGTraynor 20:06, September 1, 2005 (UTC)

Losing a coach is a major blow to any team's morale, and thus is relevant information. In Mike Leonetti's book "Maple Leaf Legends" this fact is very clearly stated. 207.236.151.102 19:29, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

Well, the phrase "the accomplishment is questionable" was what I didn't like. Its not Toronto's problem if the opposing team's coach got suspended, or were you trying to imply something? Really, I don't know the circumstances, nor do I really care for either team in question. I'm just trying to keep it objective and it certainally is not "questionable" that they came back after a 3 game deficit. This time around, your wording is slightly different. I'll let it pass, but I can't guarantee others will feel the same. ccwaters 20:17, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

It is not a fact. It is a surmise, which is a very different thing. Mr. Leonetti may be speculating or editorializing, which is his privilege, but to satisfy POV we need some measure of factual, contemporary sources, not one man's presumptions. What is his cite for it? RGTraynor 21:02, September 12, 2005 (UTC)

Top Prospects?

What is the criteria for a player to be considered a prospect?

What decides that one prospect is better than another?

Isn't this a little subjective?

-- Theycallmemorty 13:04, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

Very much so, and it is seldom (if anywhere) found on any other NHL team page. I'm quite comfy with it being deleted here. RGTraynor 13:36, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

One site I visit for all my Hockey prospect needs is http://www.hockeysfuture.com, which lists Prospects for all teams with top 20 lists, and rates the prospects expected potential, and how likely they are to reach that potential. It is a good source to look at for discussing prospects like Tuukka Rask, Justin Pogge, Ian White, Jeremy Williams, etc. etc. SSJTOM 22:55, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

If it's a useful enough page, and broken down by NHL team, it's certainly not inappropriate for it to be included in the External Links section. RGTraynor 01:35, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

2005-2006 Season Standings

Discuss why you want it to be removed. --Tykell 16:48, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

Because Wikipedia is not a news source. If you want to add wins/loses you should make a list of all the wins/losses for all the seasons. Then it would be relevant. Right now this page lacks such a table, but many other teams have them. -- Earl Andrew - talk 18:22, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

Then you may replace it with a table. But please don't randomly delete it without a suitable replacement and not expect a response. --Tykell 18:38, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

Of course a response is appropriate, but Earl's still right. The proper time to discuss Toronto's won/loss record for the 2006 season is in June, not now. RGTraynor 01:09, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

I think Earl and RGTraynor are right. I will be adding a Season-by-season record soon (within the next week or three) and when that happens, fill your boots. Of course, you are quite welcome to add a Season-by-season record yourself as that would save me a lot of time. But don't just add the current season forgetting about the other hundred or so. Wikipedia isn't a news website. Masterhatch 05:47, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

2005-06 Regular Season Results

Am I the only person who thinks that this section should be deleted? Isn't it way too much info for an encyclopaedia? I mean, Wikipedia isn't a news website per say, nor is it a "Go Leafs Go" or a "Leafs tracker" site. Curreny (as far as I have seen), this is the only team doing this. Are we going to list all 82 games? That would be a long and useless list That would only be deleted anyway at the end of the season. Masterhatch 08:06, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

I don't have an issue with the content being in Wikipedia, but I agree that it isn't appropriate for the Leafs article. It is factual, NPOV, and verifiable. If the people creating it would be interested in updating this information from previous seasons, then I would say move it to a page called "2005-06 Toronto Maple Leafs season". If they aren't interested in doing the historical pages, then it probably is worth deleting. -- JamesTeterenko 09:46, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

These articles are long enough by themselves, and it isn't as if this information's not obtainable elsewhere. I'm with James, but yes, this info doesn't belong here. RGTraynor 04:52, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

It's June now (well close enough). Anyone care to discuss Toronto's win-loss record? .... I thought not.

I would be interested in doing a game log of every game in the history of the franchise. I would be very interested in doing it for all the teams not just The Maple Leafs. If it is alright with everyone of-course. I could start on it almost right away, and go as far back as possible. This is a research site, if one high school kid or grade school kid could use the information in a project, or someone related to sports could use it as a resource, then to me, it is worth the work. Let me know. Francis 15:57, 16 August 2006 (UTC)Jefffrancis

Just wanna know

I've missed the Maple Leafs games involving Sundin (before his eye injury) this season ('05-06). So now I see McCabe, Kaberle & Tucker are wearing the 'A's ,while Captain Mats Sundin ('C') is out. My question is ,who wore the 2 'A's when Sundin was in the line-up, I'm sure McCabe was one of them ,but who got the other 'A' (the 'A' left behind by Gary Roberts ,when he departed for the Florida Panters)? Just wann know. 23 October 2005.

The Captain (since 1997) is Mats Sundin & the alternate captains (begining with 2005-06 season) are Bryan McCabe & Tomas Kaberle. Tucker is currently wearing a third 'A' while Sundin is out of line-up. C-Mats Sundin, A-Bryan McCabe & A-Tomas Kaberle. Mightberight/wrong 26 October 2005

CURRENT roster

Do we really need to clutter up the article with footnotes about a prospect bouncing between the NHL and AHL? Colaiacovo got sent down because there's a 23 man roster limit and he's the odd man out. Its not that noteworthy. Its not the first time he went down to the Marlies and I doubt it will be the last. Just comment him out (check other team rosters) if he is sent down and be done with it. Uncomment him when he gets recalled. ccwaters 20:14, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

I rather disagree with the removal of Aubin from the roster, while it is true he is currently playing in the minors at the moment, he is still signed with the Leafs and a member of the team as much as anyone else is.

No, he is not. The section is entitled "Current Squad." Someone who has been sent down to the minors is not, even on a technical basis, on the roster of the big league club. He is no more or less contractually obligated to the Leafs than any other player on the Marlies, even those who never played in the NHL and never will. When the Marlies' season ends, and if (presumably) Aubin is recalled to the Toronto roster, he'll then again belong on the Current Squad list. RGTraynor 13:36, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

On April 12th, he signed a one year NHL exclusive contract with the leafs for next years season, so he was already recalled to the leafs for next year, and is only playing in the minors at this point because this years contract is a dual one for both the minors and the NHL. If the rest of the guys are still considered on the Leafs because they have a contract for next year, how can he not be?

I'm with RGTraynor on this one. The section is referring to members of the "current" Leafs' squad ... aka, "right this moment", not 5-6 months from now. By that reasoning, J.S. Aubin wouldn't qualify IMO, until the Marlies' playoff run is over. Amchow78 00:17, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

OK, so the Marlies playoff run is now over. It is silly not to mention J.S. Aubin anywhere on the page, considering major developments past and future, such as his spotless record in the tail end of the 2005-06 season, and his recent 1-year signing (a direct result of the former). By your reasoning, "current" Leafs squad, a.k.a. "right at this moment", the off-season, is a decimated list of unrestricted free agents, restricted free agents, etc. Either recognize Aubin as a third goaltender on the list, or remove the entire roster section to reflect that it is the off-season and we have no working roster. 70.28.104.175 23:27, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Steen

How long did Steen live in Canada? If he lived maybe about ten years in Canada, then he should be listed as being Canadian. Though, he did play junior hockey in Finland, so perhaps he is Finnish. On the other hand, his father did play for the Jets. I don't know. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.188.172.165 (talk • contribs)

From what I hear, he spent his infancy in Canada and grew up in Sweden. But in any case, I believe that the nation of representation in international tournaments overrule everything else because it is a conscious declaration of allegiance rather than an uncontrollable accident by chance (such as birthplace). Steen played for Sweden, so thus he should have a Swedish flag, even if he spent 10 years in Canada or something. --Buchanan-Hermit™..CONTRIBS..SPEAK! 16:36, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately, not. There's no particular consensus, and players are typically being claimed by partisan nationalists who can get a word in edgewise; hence craziness like Stan Mikita being claimed to be a "Slovakian" hockey player, for instance. RGTraynor 20:55, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

I did make a proposal for a guideline regarding this but not too many people paid attention to it. It's still there if you want to bring it up again for discussion. Right now, it's being used as a "guide" by several editors rather than as a real guideline or policy. --Buchanan-Hermit™..CONTRIBS..SPEAK! 08:33, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps this following article may shed some light into Steen's background: [1]. "Young Alexander stickhandled into the world in 1984, in Winnipeg, and he lived in Canada until he was 12, when his father signed to play in the German League in Berlin. Three years after that, the family moved on to Sweden. So while he is listed as a European in Central Scouting, Steen is, in fact, a dual citizen." In that same article, Steen is quoted as saying, "I consider myself half Swedish and half Canadian" Amchow78 03:12, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

His father, Thomas Steen was one of all time greatest Swedes, but his mother happened to be a Canadian.

Norum 7.06.2006

Alternate captains

In these last few weeks, (due mainly to anon user(s) participation), a friendly edit dispute has grown. The arguement seems to be, weither or not Kaberle & McCabe are the only alternate captains (they're are when both are in the lineup). Tucker & (recently) Domi have been added to the list, however usually Tucker wears an 'A' when either Sundin, Kaberle or McCabe miss games, and Domi wears an 'A' when two of the previous four simutaneously miss games. So I'm asking all Wikipedians, WHO are the regular alternate captains? GoodDay 19:17, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

-> Tucker, McCabe and Kaberle[2]

Thanks, the Photo definitly ends the dispute. GoodDay 03:23, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

What happened?

Part of the Maple Leafs article (current roster, team captains) is missing, has been for a couple of days. Does someone know how to restore it? GoodDay 15:49, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

I fixed the problem now. Thanks for bringing it up. SFrank85 16:13, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Major authors of this article.

Instead of the normal "Wikipedia contributors", the name(s) of about 1 to 3 of the major authors of this article is needed, in order to cite this article. Could the regular editors to this article please make some suggestions? Kirjtc2 was the first editor, but there may be a better way to cite it than Kirby, J.P. (aka Kirjtc2) et al. Thanks. -- Jeandré, 2006-04-25t21:50z

Err? Why so? The whole nature of Wikipedia flouts classic means of citation, although one might go back to the counterculture era of the Sixties and Seventies, when books were listed with various collectives and committees as authors. In any event, a citation such as you list is quite proper. RGTraynor 14:09, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

External Links

I want to add my website to the External Links portion of the site.

I see no reason why it shouldn't be here. While it does promote my website, it also allows Toronto Maple Leafs fans, among others, to get up-to date information, salaries, roster, and discussion about the team and other Toronto teams.

I could post the news information here and link it back to my page, as a citation, but that might just defeat the purpose. dowboy98 23:37, August 14 2006 (EST)

It is 3 years out of date and provides no added value. See WP:EL. I read that as any included fan driven sites should be historical almanacs that go into far greater detail than the wiki article. See http://www.islesinfo.com/main.html and http://www.flyershistory.net for examples. ccwaters 16:23, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

There's nothing on your site Leafs fans can't get better, faster and more accurately than from the Toronto Star site, among many others. RGTraynor 17:55, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

It is updated every day, usually 5 to 6 times a day. Clearly not three years out of date. I've taken a look at the islesinfo.com page, and they've got nothing (except history, which I'm working on) that I don't have). I've taken a look at the WP:EL and the only thing that I'm doing wrong by adding my own site, being a biased source. dowboy98 23:37, August 14 2006 (EST)

External Forum Links

• TML Unoffical Talk Forum

What's the point of this? ccwaters 20:50, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

The point would be that Leaf Fans can have an alternative choice (when searching for Leafs discussion forums) to the very large "official" forum when wanting to discuss their favorite hockey team. There is a section there, that when complete, will be one of the most comprehensive "This Day in Leafs History." Yes it may promote www.TMLForum.com on here but well worth having it listed for discussion and historical value.

Naffael - Forum Administrator and Founder.

Which doesn't change the fact that it's noncompliant with WP:EL. See also "linkspam," the posting of external links of which one is an administrator, author, etc. That said, when the Leafs history section is complete, then maybe we see if it adds something beyond what the article does. Until then, no point adding it. —C.Fred (talk) 04:06, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Sounds fair enough...:-)

Team captains? Honored Numbers?

What the heck happend here, both of these sections have been wiped out (earlier this month) to make room for a bunch of mumble jumble. Why can't the article remain in standard form, like the other 29 NHL team articles? GoodDay 15:29, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Check

"The Leafs did not make the playoffs in 2006, finishing ninth in the Eastern Conference." An anon IP changed this from tenth - is it correct? Rich Farmbrough, 18:04 24 October 2006 (GMT).

It is correct, and confirmed at NHL.com 2005/06 Standings. Toronto had the same regular-season record as (10th-place) Atlanta, but earned more points in their games against Atlanta. --Darthsco 03:40, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Dislike of the Leafs

"Conversely, there is an equally passionate dislike of the team by fans of many (if not all) other teams, not just the Leafs' traditional rivals."

Is this really true? Yes, I can understand why fans of other Canadian teams might hate the Leafs, but this sentence makes it sound like the whole league is gunning for them and out for their blood. Which other teams' fanbases really hate the Leafs, besides all the other Canadian teams and some American ones (for instance, Detroit)? I was wondering if some examples could be given and discussed; otherwise, this sentence may need to be adjusted. Thanks. Gujuguy 19:29, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I can assure you, for instance, that there is no generic hatred for the Leafs in Boston. To be honest, whether this is just some grand projection by Buffalo, Detroit, Montreal and Ottawa fans is irrelevant; the whole bit is heavily POV and needs some serious sourcing from reputable secondary sources or else it needs to go. RGTraynor 04:30, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Update: I've changed the above mentioned text to say that "there is an equally passionate dislike of the team by fans of several other NHL teams." Hopefully this sounds a little less POV. Gujuguy 15:33, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Removed sentence

The team's management has been widely criticized for the trading away of vital draft picks in exchange for experienced veterans throughout the 90's, right up to the lost season of 2004-05 due to the NHL lockout.

I removed the above sentence from the article. It sounds POV to me, and has no sourcing (with a link, reference to a secondary source, or otherwise), so it's gone. Gujuguy 05:35, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Recent vandalism

I noticed that this article has been vandalized many times. How about semi-protecting it? Thank you. Johnny Au 18:05, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

I looked up the IPs of the vandals and most of them came from the Montreal area, which I believe is the result of hockey rivalry. Johnny Au 18:07, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Recently, vandalism on this page worsened with one vandal replacing the page with a profanity. The article should be semi-protected as soon as possible! Johnny Au 00:52, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

I have recently added this article into the list of most vandalized pages in Wikipedia because of its persistent vandalism. Johnny Au 17:39, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Leafs vs. Leaves

When the above fight dies down and someone can actually find citable facts on the issue, the article should certainly cover the history of the name and why it is the way it is. I lived in T.O. for over a year and not one single person could plausibly explain "Leafs" to me, and more than one wished they'd change it "because it makes Canadians sound illiterate" (their words, not mine). It seems controversial, mysterious and notable enough to be worth documenting. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 22:38, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

It has to do with the hockey clubs official name, the Bold textToronto Maple Leaf Hockey ClubBold text, and if you make it plural, it would be correctly spelled Leaves, however, it would not represent the Team's official name. SFrank85 00:08, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

That's a good explanation. Here's something of a parallel: The early version of the Pittsburgh Pirates baseball club was called "Allegheny", because they played their games in the then-separate section of the city called by that name. They were referred to informally as the "Alleghenys". The normal plural of the word would, of course, be "Alleghenies". Wahkeenah 02:42, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it's because Maple Leaf, when it refers to the team, is a proper noun and proper nouns don't follow the same pluralization rules as common nouns. If Joe Hartman gets together with his family, they are the Hartmans, not the Hartmen. And by the time the hockey team was renamed, the Maple Leafs name had been used in sports going back to the 1870s (I believe; not sure when it was first used), so there was also history behind it. --Walor 15:00, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, that's another good example. And you might be referring to Toronto Maple Leafs (minor league baseball), which began in the 1800s. Everyone thinks of the hockey team now, but that nickname was "owned" by the ball club for several decades before the hockey club decided to use it (team nicknames were not trademarked in those days). Wahkeenah 18:34, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

I was going back to the Guelph Maple Leafs, which came even before the baseball Toronto Maple Leafs. --Walor 19:15, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Maybe all those Leafs teams, collectively, are the Leaves. :) Wahkeenah 19:18, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

HHOF section

Dryden, Hewitt, Poile? Don't think these guys belong. I'm seriously thinking of calling for the elimination of the HHOF sections of all 30 NHL teams. GoodDay 22:31, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Arenas & St.Patricks captains

Does anyone have a list of the Arenas & St.Patricks captains? If so, could you add it to the article? GoodDay 20:23, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Gretzky Retirement

Put up a factual dispute due to the fact that most of the other NHL team pages list the date of league wide retirement as Feb. 6, 2000, whereas here it's listed as April 18, 1999 BT14 06:29, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

I've removed the April 18, 1999 date: That date's when Gretzky retired, Feb 6, 2000 is when his number was retired. GoodDay 18:34, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

06-07 Playoff Race

I removed the standings for the eighth and final playoff spot at the bottom of the "2006 to present" section. Wikipedia is not a news service, and we shouldn't be posting stuff like this. Thanks. Gujuguy 13:56, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Torontos? Blueshirts?

Can someone remove this from the Infobox? The Maple Leafs franchise began as the Arenas; the Arenas weren't a continuation of the Blueshirts. GoodDay 02:02, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Nevermind, I've removed them. GoodDay 02:11, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

I noticed. I went to remove them, and then had an edit conflict pop up. Serves me right for stopping during the anthem before the Oilers-Flames game. :) I think I would've missed the starting season anyway, though; you get everything in one pass. —C.Fred (talk) 02:18, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

The Torontos & Blueshirts is back, without any explanation. GoodDay 23:03, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

The team operated without a nickname for 1917-18, this is explained in Deceptions and Doublecross, it was a temporary franchise to be operated by the Arena Company, until it solved the dispute with Livingstone. The Arena Hockey Club was formed in October 1918 to separate the 1917-18 revenue legal dispute from hockey operations for 1918-1919.

incorrect stats

Mats Sundin's stats under Leafs scoring leaders is incorrect. It needs to be updated and edited. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.96.36.20 (talk • contribs) 00:01, 15 April 2007 (UTC).

Good catch! He was one goal light. I've updated it, and it agrees to the Mats Sundin article now. —C.Fred (talk) 00:17, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

General watch request

General request to folks watching this article: please backcheck anon IP edits in particular, even if it looks like they fixed a problem. We just lost the 1917-27 history section for about a day and a half as a result of this -- an anon vandal replaced it with the usual garbage, then another anon came along a few hours later and deleted the trash, but didn't restore the deleted section. The lead of the history section didn't make much sense as a result (it started with "Querrie lost a lawsuit to Livingstone and decided to put the St. Pats up for sale"), and that's something we need to catch. Thanks. VT hawkeye_{talk to me} 17:59, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

How about request for semi-protection again? Johnny Au 21:28, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

It is now semi-protected. Johnny Au 00:55, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

New players and Jersey numbers

In order to avoid a revert war, I will refrain from making changes. However, do we know the jersey numbers Toskala and Bell will be wearing. I put in a semi-protection request for the page, and I think it should be up until after the draft. Ccrashh 18:56, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Someone edited out Aubin altogether. I've restored Aubin and removed Toskala's presumed jersey number. GoodDay 16:40, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

He might be a -passing by- anon editor, but we'll have to keep an eye on 64.229.230.83. His edits are questionable (at best). GoodDay 17:05, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Detroit and Leafs

It says under Rivalries that Detroit will not meet the leafs in the 2007 - 2008 season for the first time since the original six era. That's wrong because it will actually be the 2008 - 2009 season. the leafs will still tour the Central division in the 2007 - 2008 NHL season. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Leafs877 (talk • contribs) 03:36, June 27, 2007

If you can find a reference for it, then change it and reference it. Bsroiaadn^Talk 03:40, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Some rivalry, they hardly meet anymore. The same can be said for all NHL teams. You want Rivalries, look to the 'golden era' when (six-team league) teams met each other 14 times a season. GoodDay 17:24, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Getting this article to Featured level

Given the historic importance of the Leafs in Canadian culture and in the NHL, this article should be featured. I recommend the following:

1. Split off the history section into a new article to help keep this one under 40kb
2. Start vigourously referencing the article
3. Expand the lead
4. Mention their status with the Habs as the Forever Rivals (or even create Forever Rivals)
5. Semi-protect the page

Wafulz 12:55, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

I was looking at your split suggestion at first like "Wafulz must be crazy" but I looked the article over, and only about half of it (scrolling-wise) is actual history, the rest is the roster, season stats, retired numbers, and all that and realized it's probably a good idea. Though I think the name should be brought up at WP:HOCKEY to make sure we can agree on a name just in case we have to do this with other articles later on. I think History of the Toronto Maple Leafs is fine, but some may prefer Toronto Maple Leafs history or something. Bsroiaadn^Talk 13:30, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Also, there's already an article (well, it's only a section really) about the Leafs-Canadiens rivalry. See National Hockey League rivalries#Maple Leafs-Canadiens Rivalry. Bsroiaadn^Talk 13:35, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Nevermind about bringing the name up at WP:HOCKEY, it would go along with History of the New York Rangers. Bsroiaadn^Talk 13:59, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

I took the historical section and created History of the Toronto Maple Leafs. The rationale was that it was important to keep the article within a reasonable size and place the history in another article. Maple Leaf 21:04, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

I think this is an excellent idea, however as the main article, this one should still contain an abbreviated look at the Leafs history. Simply chopping out 90 years of history leaves a giant hole in this article. Resolute 21:09, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Yeah I've put it back in. We need to shorten it, but we can't just remove everything up til 2006. Also, why is it from 2006? Ideally it should be from 2005 (post-lockout).-Wafulz 13:42, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree that it is a good idea. There is a precedent with the Rangers. It probably could also be done for Toronto, Montreal, Chicago, Boston and Ottawa Alaney2k 18:01, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

I have started editing the history part of this article, and took out the temporary notice. I suggest we work on shortening the history part here, and improving the History Of The article, as I see someone put the notice for need of references here. Alaney2k 20:42, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Recently, the article is having too much IP vandalism that clearly violate Wikipedia's neutral point of view policy. It should be semi-protected for at least two weeks, so that we can have the article to Featured level without worrying about having to revert vandalism, which would fill up the article's history. Johnny Au 01:52, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:LeafsNation banner.jpg

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Comments

Another Original Six team, another article lacking a specific "Uniforms" section. There absolutely has to be one, especially since this is The Maple Leafs, and that they have one of the best and most popular uniforms around. The section should have photos and info. Also, the team mascot should be mentioned somewhere. As you might have seen, I've made these same comments about a lot of NHL team pages. If we can get most of these team articles to have the same structure I think it'll look better and be more unified. Team jerseys are important, right? The Devils article is obviously a foundation for the rest. Love each other, or perish. ~Auden 05:16, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

"However, a six-game series against the Blackhawks and a seven-game series against the San Jose Sharks took their toll on the team; they were defeated by the Vancouver Canucks--a team that finished 13 points below them in the regular season-- in five games."

Says who? Does any reputable source say that playing one more game than the Canucks was the reason the leafs lost? That's what the sentence implies. 70.66.2.120 (talk) 01:15, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

shouldn't the recentism in the 2006 onward section be dealt with? it really isn't that hard of a thing to do. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.66.2.120 (talk) 04:58, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

"In 2002, they would dispatch the Islanders and Ontario rivals, the Ottawa Senators, in the first two rounds, only to lose to the Cinderella-story Carolina Hurricanes in the Conference Finals. The 2002 season was particularly impressive in that the Leafs had many of their better players sidelined by injuries, but managed to make it to the conference finals due to the efforts of lesser-known players who were led mainly by Gary Roberts, who put up a heroic fight, although they would eventually fall to the Hurricanes."

This whole paragraph reads like it was taken from a Toronto Maple Leafs fan board ... in fact, this whole article does ... i'm going to take a crack this paragraph to make it more neutral. The first italicized quote is not nuetral, the second one needs to be cleaned up a bit, the third one is not neurtal, and the fourth italicized quote is just repetitive seing as though this was already mentioned. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.66.2.120 (talk) 21:31, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Can someone make a change in the Leafs Nation section please? The claim that the nickname "the Buds" stands for "(as in maple bud and/or short for buddy)" is absolutely ridiculous. It is a reference to maple buds, not a short-form of buddy. I've lived in Toronto for 40 years and have never once heard that...until reading it here.

Sundin's stats

We went through this last season. and consensus was reached then that the scoring tables would only be updated at the end of each regular season. Has the hockey project reconsidered this, and/or is there a new consensus that says we should be changing this table constantly? —C.Fred (talk) 22:15, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Nationalities

If Alex Steen is Swedish, than Alexei Ponikarovsky, and maybe even Nik Antropov are Canadian. If we do it by place of birth, than Poni and Antropov are right, but Steen is wrong, and if we're doing it by citizenship, Nik Antropov and Alexei Ponikarovsky both became Canadian citizens last year, and at least Alexei Ponikarovsky has publicly stated that he'd prefer to play for Canada to the Ukraine, saying once he got his citizenship that he'd "like to try out for the Olympic team." If you need a link to prove this, then I'll find it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.245.89.152 (talk) 04:33, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

We tend to go by what the player most identifies with. As such, Steen is listed as a Swede, given the only roots he really has in Canada is that it is the place his dad played. Much of his development was in Sweden, and he plays for Sweden internationally. Robyn Regehr is a similar case. Antropov and Ponikarovsky similarly continue to identify with their birth nations far more than their adopted nations. Much in the same way that Wayne Gretzky is flagged with a Maple Leaf, despite having American citizenship, and currently living in the US. Resolute 05:38, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Maple Leafs President

Let me get this straight, the Leafs have no team President. Tannebaum basically represents the owners (Teachers Union) & Peddie runs the Leafs rink. If that make sense?, should we clarify this in the article? GoodDay (talk) 19:11, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

I've figured it out, folks. The article Ken Dryden, says the position Maple Leafs President was abolished in August 2003. GoodDay (talk) 22:34, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

New GM

FERGUSON WAS FIRED TODAY!! http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/news_story/?ID=227906&hubname= WOO! CHANGE THAT GM TO FLETCHER SOMEONE! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.95.233.106 (talk) 16:47, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

That's 'interim GM' for Fletcher. GoodDay (talk) 22:03, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:LeafCaptainSittler.jpg

Image:LeafCaptainSittler.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 23:16, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Unlike the image below, I can't come up with a rationale for this one. —C.Fred (talk) 03:57, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Mahovolich4Kelly8.jpg

Image:Mahovolich4Kelly8.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 00:48, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Resolved

 – Rationale added. This is the last time to date that the Leafs have won the Cup: that's significant history in my book. —C.Fred (talk) 03:56, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Series vs. Flyers- only 6 games, article says 7 in about 03-04

It should probably be changed 142.68.87.127 (talk) 02:09, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

• Where do you see it saying 7 games? Every place I see it discussed, it's 6. —C.Fred (talk) 02:11, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Media

I don't think Fan 590 (CJCL) broadcasts any Leafs games anymore. Also, the media box should mention CBLT (CBC) 5 as a broadcaster due to HNIC.

129.100.179.222 (talk) 17:03, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

HNIC is a national network program, not sure if we list that in the infobox. Alaney2k (talk) 17:12, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

I believe the media sections typically include only local/regional broadcasters, not national. Resolute 17:15, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Leafs Logo and History

The article does very well in describing the history of the leafs and their name changes, but I think that a picture showing the evolution of the crest through these name changes would be a good edition. The logos of the Arenas, St. Pats, and all Leaf logos I think should be shown. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.14.53.19 (talk) 19:52, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Kulemin

Shouldn't Nikolai Kulemin be added to the roster? They said he will be in a Leafs uniform for 2008-2009. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.223.155.40 (talk) 21:30, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

We don't add players to the roster until the official page has them listed on the roster due to policies such as Wikipedia is not a crystal ball. -Djsasso (talk) 21:33, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Fletcher

I think we can drop the interim, since Peddie said he'll be staying as GM till his contract is up, so that's no longer interim and he's not listed as interim on http://mapleleafs.nhl.com/team/app/?service=page&page=NHLPage&id=12778 --Fire 55 (talk) 01:53, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Alexander Steen

Should'nt Steen have the Swedish flag instead of the canadian? He may have dual nationality, but he represents Sweden at international level. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.219.208.44 (talk) 11:42, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

He should, and I'll change it. This has been an ongoing debate. Resolute 14:29, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Logo

Shouldn't the picture of the logo be of the white maple leaf, seeing as on their home jersey, it's the white leaf. We could put a blue background to make the contrast it needs to show up. 99.234.164.101 (talk) 00:46, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

No, since the blue leaf logo is just as valid a logo. I point out that the official site uses the blue leaf as the site's favicon and in the "next game" block—even though the next game is a home game. —C.Fred (talk) 01:11, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Official logo's aren't necessarily the ones that are on the jersey's anyways. -Djsasso (talk) 20:25, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Names

The following names are wrongly spelt at least once in the article. Jonas Frögren Anton Strålman Börje Salming Could someone please respell them. I can't. I am not qualified —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.227.58.24 (talk) 21:22, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Can you be more specific? "Borje Salming" appears correctly in the article three times. WikiProject consensus is that diacritics are not used in hockey article text. —C.Fred (talk) 21:41, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

More specifically, that diacritics are not used in North America specific articles, in line with standard English usage in North America. They are displayed in international and European specific articles in keeping with European styles. Resolute 01:22, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Red Sox Nation

I don't think this comparison is necessary unless there's proof that Leafs Nation is based on Red Sox Nation. If we list this, we may as well list off all other fanbases with similar names ("Sens Army" comes to mind).-Wafulz (talk) 13:47, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, the Red Sox Nation article states that the term first came into use in 1986. I'm pretty sure Leafs nation was first used way after 86. Also, in the Hockey Night in Canada article, it lists shows with similar names (like NBC's Football Night in America. Richiekim (talk) 13:56, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

I mean we need a reliable source that says "'Leafs Nation' is derived from 'Sox Nation'" or something like that. The HNIC article only has one such assertion (for Football Night in America).-Wafulz (talk) 13:59, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

'Leafs Nations' (sic) is make believe. To say that it's used on the website doesn't mean anything. Any [censored] can say anything on a website. I've been following the Leaf's for almost 40 years and I've never yet heard any fan ever use this term. This is merely the feeblest of marketing efforts. p.s. Yes, I understand that my statement applies to my own writing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.242.11.245 (talk) 06:36, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Burke

just a heads up on the main page that Burke is actually American and not Canadian. This is the link on the Burke page to confirm that, http://www.hhof.com/html/exSCJ07_21.shtml - Kr3vin 16:38, 29 November 2008

Resolved

Johnny Au _{(talk/contributions)} 21:52, 29 November 2008 (UTC)