Talk:December 2021 Midwest derecho and tornado outbreak

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This article has previously been nominated to be moved. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination.

Discussions:

No consensus, 12 February 2022, to December 2021 North American storm complex, see discussion.
Not moved, 23 May 2024, to Tornado outbreak and derecho of December 15–16, 2021, see discussion.

Suggested move

I think the current page should be moved to a different title, since the current one is rather redundant. A derecho is already a storm complex, and "storm complex" article titles are already used for storms with multiple hazard types, including derechos. I might suggest something along the lines of "Mid-December 2021 North American storm complex," though I'm not set on any particular title. TornadoLGS (talk) 21:20, 16 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That's fine with me - I just moved it to this because I wanted to make it very clear that this was not the tornado outbreak and there was no way for confusion, but I don't care much about where it ends up as long as it doesn't cause confusion. Skarmory (talk • contribs) 22:55, 17 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I would advocate for moving it back to the December 2021 Central United States windstorm like I originally titled it. That covers both convective and non-convective wind elements. TropicalAnalystwx13 (talk · contributions) 02:07, 23 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

If we go with that, I would suggest "windstorm and tornado outbreak" since that aspect of the system turned out to be quite substantial in terms of the sheer number of tornadoes. TornadoLGS (talk) 02:11, 23 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

If we're gonna split them, it's probably best just to go with something like December 2021 Midwest derecho and tornado outbreak then. TropicalAnalystwx13 (talk · contributions) 03:11, 23 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It was moved. 66.80.252.58 (talk) 19:50, 25 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Addition of GIF

Could I upload this GIF? This is a radar image of the storm complex and derecho.

However, if this is not efficient, then I can upload a different GIF related to this. Severe storm 28 14:55, 22 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

As far as I’m concerned it’s fine! United States Man (talk) 16:20, 22 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

2 extra deaths?

Should we add the two deaths caused by the 2021 Kansas wildfire outbreak (which would increase the death toll in the info box to 7?) 108.170.65.170 (talk) 23:28, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@TropicalAnalystwx13 and TornadoLGS: What do you think? I would say no since this is about the derecho and tornadoes, but I don't really have a preference. United States Man (talk) 00:19, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'd be fine with including them, since we regularly list deaths from flooding etc. related to tornado outbreaks. My only caveat is that they might be considered indirect deaths since other factors, such as drought, contributed to the fires. TornadoLGS (talk) 00:27, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, they should be added to the Kansas windstorm section. TropicalAnalystwx13 (talk · contributions) 01:07, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Obviously, but the question is whether to add them to the infobox. United States Man (talk) 01:10, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'd say yes in that case, since the Kansas windstorm is discussed as part of the system. TornadoLGS (talk) 02:02, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'd say add as indirect to the infobox. Skarmory (talk • contribs) 08:05, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, I think it’s safe to add it as indirect then. 108.170.65.170 (talk) 23:08, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 12 February 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. (closed by non-admin page mover) Colin M (talk) 19:56, 21 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

December 2021 Midwest derecho and tornado outbreak → December 2021 North American storm complex – This storm has 4 parts, a winter storm in the west that caused a significant amount of snowfall, a windstorm in the Great Plains killing 3, a derecho further east and a tornado outbreak. The name as is is kind of long and a hit unnatural and doesn’t take into consideration the whole storm. But this new title would. 69.118.232.58 (talk) 20:19, 12 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support – The proposed title is more concise, while remaining very accurate. When we name our articles, we want them to be as accurate and as concise as possible. LightandDark2000 🌀 (talk) 00:46, 13 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support I agree with Lightanddark200's statement, the article name is a "Wordy" name right now, Making it harder to find via searches. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cyclonicpot (talk • contribs) 18:27, 13 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose The derecho and tornado outbreak have more importance by far compared to the non-thunderstorm winds and snow. Any tornado outbreak page could be renamed into a 'storm complex' article since those outbreaks are typically coming as part of a bigger system with other impacts. However, they're referred to as tornado outbreak pages because that's the most notable aspect. Same thing here. The NCDC entry likewise lists the event as "Midwest derecho and tornado outbreak." TropicalAnalystwx13 (talk · contributions) 18:45, 13 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose proposed title because it is too broad. It would require disambiguation with Tornado outbreak of December 10–11, 2021. I'm neutral on moving it to a "storm complex" title, but it would have to be more specific than the one proposed. TornadoLGS (talk) 18:50, 13 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Weak support I get that the derecho and tornado outbreak stand out from everything else but I’m not really sure how changing the title will make a huge difference. I would consider it a notable complex but I don’t really support changing the title that much but it would be okay. IBlazeCat (talk) 21:19, 13 February 2022 (UTC)iBlazeCat[reply]

Oppose – per TAWX13. United States Man (talk) 23:12, 14 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

125 tornadoes?

The SPC has just published this graphic on Twitter indicating that there were actually a total of 125 tornadoes from this outbreak. Unfortunately, I couldn't find any more information. Ionmars10 (talk) 20:30, 11 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 23 May 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (non-admin closure) Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 19:10, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

December 2021 Midwest derecho and tornado outbreak → Tornado outbreak and derecho of December 15–16, 2021 – Standardize and align per other such articles with a tornado outbreak and derecho combo, such as Tornado outbreak and derecho of April 1–3, 2024 and Derecho and tornado outbreak of April 4–5, 2011. I originally moved it to this boldly, but then @United States Man: reverted it with no explanation. This shouldn’t even be an issue yet here we are because apparently BOLD isn’t a thing anymore I guess. Additionally this title fits far better because it distinguishes the title from the previous outbreak just a few days prior. The current title has no date range which some can confuse some with the other outbreak. MarioProtIV (^talk/_contribs) 02:33, 23 May 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. Polyamorph (talk) 09:01, 30 May 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 11:46, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Since there have been two move and revert cycles, I've move-protected the article for a short time to stop the chain of reverts. Please get consensus before any moves from now on. Acroterion (talk) 02:35, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose – Other tornado outbreak articles such as 2020 Nashville tornado outbreak and December 2023 Tennessee tornado outbreak exist that provide a more descriptive title than random dates as in the proposed title. This article is similar. We should strive to be more descriptive and informative to the reader, not less. There is no required naming convention for tornado articles. United States Man (talk) 02:41, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose This is mainly a tornado outbreak. The derecho is of secondary importance and most tornado outbreak articles include non-tornadic impacts. I'll also add that WP:BOLD says nothing about not reverting bold edits. In fact it says, in not so many words, to follow WP:BRD. TornadoLGS (talk) 02:55, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

For I can't really understand how specifying when the event occurred is "less" descriptive... My main support comes from the fact that there is another December 2021 outbreak (Tornado outbreak of December 10–11, 2021) and the lack of distinction with the other article can lead to confusion.--–uncleben85 (talk) 14:30, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose — NOAA naming convention is different. To respond to Uncleben85’s supporting reason of another tornado outbreak days earlier, NOAA named/described them differently. On NOAA’s Billion Dollar Weather and Climate Disasters list, the Dec 10-11 event is called “Southeast, Central Tornado Outbreak, December 2021” and the December 15-16 event (this article) is named “Midwest Derecho and Tornado Outbreak, December 2021”. The Wikipedia articles follow NOAA’s naming convention, which in this case named this article “December 2021 Midwest derecho and tornado outbreak”, and the December 10-11 event “tornado outbreak”. Any rename to remove “derecho” technically means renaming the event away from an official naming style. For that reason, I have to be a strong oppose to any rename. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 15:10, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The proposal is not to remove "derecho" by any means, but instead to further distinguish the December 15-16 weather events from the the December 10-11 weather events. The NOAA naming conventions at least differentiate between "Southeast" and "Midwest" in both titles. I think the bigger problem here is the inconsistency between one title using a geographic indicator but no specific timescale, and the other using a more precise date but no location indicator. I do not think it is unrealistic to see how confusion may arise between the two. Maybe an alternative support for something like Midwest derecho and tornado outbreak of December 15–16, 2021 would be more appropriate while satisfying conditions of WP:NCWWW –uncleben85 (talk) 15:19, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This would be something I would be fine with. Acts as a compromise if you will. MarioProtIV (^talk/_contribs) 14:40, 30 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support Per WP:CONCISE. And WeatherWriter didn’t realize the word “derecho” is in the new title, thus his vote should be discounted in the analysis.68.129.15.101 (talk) 22:10, 25 May 2024 (UTC) (Blocked Sock) The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 16:50, 30 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

For the record, I am aware “derecho” is in the proposed title. However, NOAA did not list it as a specific date derecho and just the December 2021 derecho and tornado outbreak. Absolutely no reason to add a specific date when the official name doesn’t even have a specific date. Also, hi Andrew5. Note: The comment above this by 68.129.15.101 is almost certainly a long-term abuser (Andrew5). SPI is open, but edit-history WP:DUCK evidence is damning enough for me to say please disregard the comment and any further statements by that user. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 09:11, 30 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisting comment: The consensus to meet is totally to whether to support/oppose alternative proposal Midwest derecho and tornado outbreak of December 15–16, 2021. Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 11:46, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: WikiProject Nebraska, WikiProject Minnesota, WikiProject Kansas, WikiProject Wisconsin, WikiProject Weather/Non-tropical storms task force, WikiProject Colorado, WikiProject Iowa, WikiProject Weather, WikiProject Disaster management, WikiProject Severe weather, and WikiProject United States have been notified of this discussion. Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 11:46, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.