Talk:Tonto Apache

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Changing name to Tonto because:

In Arizona at least, "Tonto" is still the most widely-used name and appears on maps, literature, etc.
Name of the associated political entity is still "tonto" in English
Dilzhę́'é is not widely understood around here, but if you say "Tonto" everybody knows what you're talking about.
Convention overrides offensiveness, as long as it's noted in the article.

--Node 06:49, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

ok, but the Dilzhę́’é prefer to be called Dilzhę́’é, regardless of what non-Dilzhę́’é call them. I note that other articles such as Nuxálk (= Bella Coola) & Nuxálk language use the names preferred by the peoples rather than the names more well-known to outsiders. i was just going by this convention. peace — ishwar (SPEAK) 07:10, 2005 Jun 12 (UTC)

well, i changed the article to Dilzhe'e Apache. this is more respectful. this parallels other articles on indigeous peoples. — ishwar (SPEAK) 02:35, 2005 Jun 13 (UTC)

Daagote'e' Ish ishwar,

The problem is that even Dilzhe'e call themselves "Tonto" in English. The official name of the tribe is "Tonto", as opposed to the "Tohono O'odham Nation" (formerly the offensive "papago"). It can't be that offensive if it's still part of the official name they have for their own tribe.

In addition, "Dilzhe'e" is ambiguous.

"Nuxálk" is used by both Nuxálk people and outsiders --- it is now the "politically correct" name for the people, and it can be found in many English texts as well. On the contrary, "Dilzhe'e" appears in almost no English texts.

Also, unfortunately, language retention among the Tonto Apache is very low, so "Dilzhe'e", being primarily a name from Ndé biyati', will be less familiar to them.

Iinagodzin at'ee --Node 01:27, 27 Jun 2005 (UTC)

dagot’éé.

many Dilzhe’e now prefer Dilzhe’e over Tonto. you can see an example of this usage on the two websites linked from the main article (& also in the PDFs of the tribal newspaper on the Yavapai-Apache site). This is a fairly recent movement that you may not have encountered yet. There may be some Dilzhe'e who do not care either way, but there are some who do prefer Dilzhe'e (I will have to inquire further about this if you are interested).

regarding ambiguity: Dilzhe'e is not ambiguous to the Dilzhe'e. With respect to non-Dilzhe'e, the term is no more ambiguous than Tonto which has been used to refer to Dilzhe'e Apache, all Western Apache groups, and even to Yavapais (although it is way better than the term Apache!). Some elders do not even recognize Western Apache groups as they are mostly a western anthropological nomenclature. However, I dont know if these elders specifically reject the Tonto grouping.

so, to conclude, the main reason to use the term Tonto Apache stems from a preference to use "established" terminology. which is not necessarily an objectionable practice. After all, most encyclopedias would list Bella Coola and not Nuxálk. peace – ishwar (speak) 2005 June 28 18:25 (UTC)

Daagot'éé.

I think that until such time as the tribe changes its name officially, we should keep it as "Tonto". This is similar to using "Pima" instead of "Akimel O'odham". In case you're not familiar with that case, "Pima" is an exonym derived from the Pima "pi 'añi ma:c", meaning "I don't know" (the response to Spanish explorers asking them what peoples they were). "Akimel O'odham" is the native name. "Akimel O'odham" is slowly usurping the name "Pima" in English usage, but the official usage by both Pima tribes (Salt River Pima-Maricopa Indian Community and Gila River Indian Community) remains "Pima". On the other hand, the Tohono O'odham (formerly Papago, from "Ba:b ko'a", meaning "they eat beans") have officially changed the name of their tribes.

You're very right that the division between different "groups" of Western Apache is almost nonexistant and is largely created by anthropologists. The White Mountain Apache and the San Carlos Apache both have good-sized reservations that border each other for hundreds of miles; if they were all one reservation it would be nearly the size of the Navajo Nation. --Node 29 June 2005 23:52 (UTC)

Skeleton Cave massacre

I've removed this material, which erroneously stated that the Tonto Apaches were victims. The Yavapai were the victims here -- see "Skeleton Cave" in Yavapai people. There were Tonto Apache scouts attached to the US Army attackers, who reportedly helped rescue some of the survivors. Pete Tillman (talk) 20:01, 17 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. Armbrust ^{The Homunculus} 18:21, 17 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Tonto Apache people → Tonto Apache – The target is a redirect to the current title, created by Kwami in moving "Tonto Apache" to "Tonto Apache people" on June 8 2010, without comment or discussion. As per closures of similar RMs in recent days by Cuchulainn and others, "consensus has spoken" that the people are the PRIMARYTOPIC, as stated by him here re the Northern Tutchone title. Guidelines such as Wikipedia:Article titles#Use commonly recognizable names and the guideline Wikipedia:Naming conventions (ethnicities and tribes) call for this move, as does WP:Conciseness and WP:Precision, and more. Skookum1 (talk) 11:01, 10 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Support. In cases where the requested move simply eliminates the word "people", and the destination title is already a simple redirect to the current title, it is clear that guidelines favoring both precision and conciseness support the move. Xoloz (talk) 02:20, 17 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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Potential Correction to Delshay Paragraph

Hi everyone, I was just reading the book "Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee: An Indian History of the American West" by Dee Brown. In Chapter 9, "Cochise and the Apache Guerrillas," it is stated that Delshay was at a reservation on Rio Verde and implies he was there at the time that Lt. Jacob Almy was killed at San Carlos. The book states that Delshay was accused "of aiding the fugitives" since Apache leaders fled San Carlos after the killing and camped near where Delshay was living. The book does state that Delshay fled after he was accused of this. I'm not an expert on this subject and don't know to what extent Delshay was involved, but the information in this book and the information currently in the article don't seem to completely agree. Could anyone more knowledgeable on this take a look and see what information seems to be the most accurate? Thank you. WikiUser12456 (talk) 03:55, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]