Talk:Tolui

grammar

Ruìzōng; Wade–Giles: Jui-Tsung) by his another son Kublai, when the latter tried to established the Yuan Dynasty a few decades later.

should this be "his other son" — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ur-loki (talk • contribs) 15:34, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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This review is transcluded from Talk:Tolui/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Golden (talk · contribs) 19:28, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

I'll be reviewing this article. — Golden ^talk 19:28, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

Lead & Infobox

• Tolui was also the husband of Sorghaghtani Beki - Can we include a brief introduction to Sorghaghtani? For example: "Tolui was also married to the Keraite princess Sorghaghtani Beki."
  • None of the other figures bar Genghis need introduction in the first paragraph, and indeed Sorghaghtani is very difficult to define—"Mongol stateswoman" would match better than "Kereit" princess, but still not perfect. I'm going to decline.
    • Fair. — Golden ^talk
• after her uncle Toghrul's death in 1203 - How is this related to Tolui and Sorghaghtani's marriage?
  • The whole phrase is a bit out of place. I'm going to remove it.
• but his distinguished service - The word "but" may not be the best choice here. Perhaps "and" would be a better fit?
  • Done
• early the following year - English is not my first language, so it might just be me, but could you explain what this means?
  • Early in 1221
• Per MOS:OVERLINK, I don’t think you should wikilink the following words: arrogance, generosity, curse, alcoholism, and poisoned.
  • All except alcoholism delinked.
• Shouldn't Jami al-tawarikh be italicised in the infobox?
  • Yes it should.

Life

• "Tolui" may have been a title which Genghis intended to replace the pre-imperial epithet "otchigin" - Is a word missing here?
  • I don't believe so; I've amended it slightly, does that help?
    • That's not where the problem was. I think I just expected a "with" after "otchigin". — Golden ^talk
      • I don't think that would make grammatical sense, but that may just be me.

Life under Genghis (c. 1191–1227)

• You don't need to wikilink kidnapping.
  • Done.
• Italicise Jami' al-tawarikh.
• Briefly introduce Rashid al-Din.
  • Both done.
• According to the Secret History - I am unsure about shortening work titles like this. Are there any guidelines about this?
  • Very common in RS. It's annoying to write out the "of the Mongols" all the time. Either that or they use the abbreviation SHM.
    • Fair. — Golden ^talk
• Briefly introduce Boroqul and Jelme.
  • Done for Boroqul, removed the reference to Jelme.
• This incident probably happened c. 1196 - Missing an "in" here.
  • No, see the wiktionary entry.
• both Nestorian Christians - No change, just wanted to express my amazement at this fact. [Nestorian] Christianity in 13th century Mongolia? Wow.
  • You might find the Xi'an Stele interesting.
    • Thank you. — Golden ^talk
• What is Dexing? Can we get brief information about it?
  • It's a town. I couldn't find anything more.
• The last sentence before the Khorasan campaign section ends on a cliffhanger. What happened with the invasion of Jin China or the planned assault on Juyong Pass? Did Tolui command the army until the end of the invasion or only during the siege of Xijing?
  • Only during Xijing, which I have clarified. There is too much information about the Jin campaign, none of which is Tolui-relevant, to include in this article, without compromising WP:DUE.
    • Much better. — Golden ^talk
• During the invasion of the Khwarazmian Empire, which began in 1219, Tolui initially accompanied his father's army, which bypassed the ongoing siege at Otrar to attack the major centres of Transoxiana—the Khwarazmshah's capital Samarkand and its neighbour Bukhara—in early 1220. - Consider splitting this sentence. I recommend something like this: "During the invasion of the Khwarazmian Empire, which began in 1219, Tolui initially accompanied his father's army. They bypassed the ongoing siege at Otrar to attack the major centres of Transoxiana—the Khwarazmshah's capital Samarkand and its neighbour Bukhara—in early 1220."
  • Done.
• You don't need to wikilink conscripts and ambushed.
  • Delinked ambushed.
• The following day (25 February) - Is it necessary to include "25 February" here since it is clear from the previous sentence that we were talking about 24 February?
  • Removed.
• You don't need to wikilink fortifications and surrendered.
  • Delinked.
• Briefly introduce Ata-Malik Juvayni.
• Juvaini - I assume this is Juvayni?
  • Done both.
• as a final touch - Final touch to what? Getting rid of the bodies?
  • Removed, was a slight bit of editorializing that somehow crept in.
• There has some confusion -> "There is some confusion"
  • No, there has been—i.e. there isn't anymore, but there was.

Regency and succession question (1227–29)

• it has been noticed that - This seems unnecessary.
  • Probably.
• Rashid al-Din is linked for the second time here. If you implement my suggestion about him above, he would be introduced for the second time here as well.
  • Fixed.
• You don't need to wikilink hunting.
  • Delinked,
• allegedly because of his love for hunting - I'm confused: Did Jochi not attend the funeral because he loved hunting?
  • A kurultai isn't a funeral, but that was the allegation; it is unknown whether the allegation was true or not.
    • Not sure where I got "funeral" from. However, this still doesn't make much sense to me. Maybe you meant he didn't attend the kurultai because he was busy hunting? — Golden ^talk
      • Yes. Amended.
• prematurely died from a serious illness - Do you mean prematurely in terms of his age, or something else?
  • Yes to the first, but it was somewhat unnecessary, so I've removed.
• You don't need to wikilink "drink excessively".
  • Delinked.
• Nestorian Christian is wikilinked again.
  • It's been a while, and readers may be unfamiliar, so keeping per DUPLINK
• You don't need to wikilink Islam.
  • It's not been linked thus far, so I'll keep it.
• Briefly introduce Yelu Chucai.
  • Done
• possibly exaggerates his role at the coronation. - In what way does it exaggerate? All we have read about the coronation is that Tolui attended it.
  • Clarified.
    • Can you further clarify what this "prominent position" was? Does it refer to a position during the coronation, or more generally after Ögedei became khan? — Golden ^talk
      • Clarified further.
        • Much better. — Golden ^talk
• You don't need to wikilink coronation.
  • Removed.

Life under Ögedei and death (1229–c. 1232)

• You don't need to wikilink taboo.
• including one over Subutai himself - This is the first time we are hearing about Subutai's involvement in this battle, so the word "himself" should be dropped.
  • Removed both.
• You don't need to wikilink "rape all the Mongol women" and "cult".
  • Removed the second link.
• Great Khanate - This is the first time we are seeing this term. Does it refer to the Mongol Empire?
  • Clarified.

References

• Spot-checked the following references:

• Atwood in references #1, 3, 8, 12, 26, 39, 54, 68.

• Atwood is missing page number in ref #8.

• Was there, I just forgot to format correctly.

• Boyle in references #17, 22, 31
• Mote in reference #44.

• I could not verify this reference. On page 434, I cannot find any information about Jochi's illegitimacy or Genghis Khan's opinion on the matter. Can you provide the exact quote?

• Article: "Genghis was not particularly concerned by this"; source: "Chinggis had reluctantly designated his third son Ogeodei to succeed him, having been rebuffed by his other sons in his desire to make Jochi his heir." Also supported by the other provided citations, most likely Favereau, although I don't currently have access to it.

• Togan in references #2, 38

General comments

• Earwig's detector does not show any copyright violations.
• Images are relevant and appropriately tagged.
• This was one of the more interesting articles I have reviewed at GAN. I thoroughly enjoyed reading and learning about Tolui. I look forward to seeing your revisions in response to my suggestions. — Golden ^talk 21:56, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

• Golden, thanks very much for the review. Responses above. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 09:29, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

• @AirshipJungleman29: Thank you for the quick changes. I've replied above to a few points that I'd still like addressed. — Golden ^talk 09:56, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

• Golden, see above. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 10:03, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

• @AirshipJungleman29: Great. Happy to pass. Congratulations! — Golden ^talk 10:25, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Bruxton (talk) 18:46, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

)

• ... that a Mongol army commanded by Tolui was alleged to have killed three million people in less than two months? Source: Boyle 1968, pp. 313–315; Man 2004, pp. 176–177; Morgan 1986, p. 74.
  • ALT1: ... that while Tolui was recorded to have sacrificed himself to free his brother Ögedei from a curse, historians have theorised that Ögedei ordered his death? Source: Atwood 2004, p. 542; Atwood 2008, p. 193; May 2018, pp. 97–98.
  • ALT2: ... that Tolui's subjugation of Khorasan in 1221 was so brutal that the region had not recovered by the 20th century? Source: Jackson 2017, p. 79; Manz 2010, pp. 134–135; Boyle 1968, p. 312.
  • Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Humayun Shah

Improved to Good Article status by AirshipJungleman29 (talk). Self-nominated at 09:16, 16 August 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Tolui; consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.

• General eligibility:
• New enough:
• Long enough:
• Other problems:

Policy compliance:

• Adequate sourcing:
• Neutral:
• Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:
• Other problems:

Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
Cited: - Offline/paywalled citation accepted in good faith Interesting:

QPQ: Done.

Overall: Article created by Wackyslav on June 22, 2004; it is promoted to Good Article status on August 15, 2023, Good job by User:AirshipJungleman29. Everything looks fine. ALT0 is interesting. It is GTG. RV (talk) 08:03, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

@AirshipJungleman29: I looked in the article for the hook but could not find it. Can you lead me to the two month 3 million bit in the article? Bruxton (talk) 18:38, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

Bruxton, a combination of different events. Tolui was alleged to have ordered the deaths of 1.3 million at Merv in early March (see second paragraph of "Khorasan campaign (1221)" section) and the deaths of 1.75 million at Nishapur in early/mid-April (see fourth paragraph in same section). This adds up to a total of more than three million alleged deaths in less than two months (in fact, less than six weeks). Please ping me if this is insufficient. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 19:13, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

@AirshipJungleman29: I do prefer to have an easier to find hook sentence where I am not required tom do maths, but your explanation checks out. Congrats on the GA, it is interesting to imagine such a murderous Mongol. Bruxton (talk) 20:17, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

Grammar

"Tolui (c. 1191–1232) was the youngest son of Genghis Khan, the founder of the Mongol Empire, and his first wife Börte."

Was there meant to be more context around his first wife Börte? 105.245.236.227 (talk) 07:37, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

No, hence the full stop. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 12:01, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

@AirshipJungleman29 I mean, should it rather say "... and his first wife was Böurte."? 196.25.151.2 (talk) 12:36, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

@196.25.151.2 *Börte 196.25.151.2 (talk) 12:37, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

No, because that is less precise. "Tolui was the son of Genghis Khan and Börte" means that these two people were Tolui's father and mother. "Tolui was the son of Genghis Khan and his wife was Börte" means that Genghis Khan was Tolui's father and Börte was Tolui's wife, which is incorrect. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 13:19, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

@AirshipJungleman29 Ahh I understand what you mean. I apologise for the confusion. Perhaps a less confusing syntax would refer Börte as Toloi's mother rather than Gengis Khan's wife, seeing as the article is about Toloi. 196.25.151.2 (talk) 15:33, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

That is the first sentence: "Tolui is the son of [father] and [mother]." ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 15:41, 20 December 2023 (UTC)