Talk:Thiyya

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How do you differentiate an Ezhava from a Paniyan> Both are having different wiki article.. But I can find many similarities between Ezhavas and Paniyas. Both are dark skinned, Both are backward, Both are tribal originated etc.. blah blah.. will you keep both in same page? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.206.1.35 (talk) 19:36, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

Then I can show you proofs.

Paid agents of SNDP has redirected Thiyya wiky page to Ezhava. They have no right to do so. Ezhava caste chauvinism.

For those still want a proof that Tiyyar/Thiyyar was a separate caste, please refer the following links:

Caste and Territory in Malabar by ERIC J. MILLER http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1525/aa.1954.56.3.02a00100/pdf

Castes-and-Tribes-of-Southern-India-Vol-7 by Thurston, Edgar : Page: 37 - 122

@Sitush, You are requested to restore the page back and remove the redirect link.

@Wikipedia admins, Please make sure that this page is restored. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.231.54.234 (talk) 19:25, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

Its must that Thiyya and Ezhava should be seen separate.. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.191.221.72 (talk) 06:37, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

<quote>``Thiyyas of Malabar are the descendants of this group of Kyrgyz, asserts T. Damu book `Lanka Parvam'. </quote>

That's writer's "BHAVANA". Can you proove that?

<quote> Caucasian anatomy </quote>

If at all true, it's because of the race mixing that happened in Malabar. You can claim of Portugese, Dutch, French origins.

Yes, it’s true that Thiyyas of Malabar were from Kyrgyz and they were called “Thiyyas” because they were people who were settled in the foothills of “Tian Mountains” which is in the southern side of Kyrgyzstan. Any one can easily make out the difference between Ezhavas (Non Malabar Thiyyas) and the Thiyyas of Malabar. Thiyyas of Malabar are very fair in complection, have sharp facial features and broad bone structure which are not “Dravidian” features and hence they could not be of Sri Lanka origin. Non Malabar Thiyyas must have come from Sri Lanka and their “Dravidian” features support it. The only reason for this confusion is because community names are so similar, another fact which favored the same was that both of these communities followed the great social reformer Sri Narayana Guru and got a common community name atlast.

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excuse me ... I know many thiyyas who are dark skinned and look like dravidians.. I have Thiyya relatives. I agree that more % of thiyyas are fair skinned. some with blue/green eye.. This is more predominant in thalaserry and it's because of the race mixing between the foriegners and the local people. You can see the same with malabar Nairs too. are you running away from Dravidian origin? There is not Nair in Malabar. Are you mad? Only Nambiars are there which is considered same status with Thiyyar. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.231.54.234 (talk) 18:56, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

The reason

The reason why many thiyyas in the north malabar have fairer complexion is not due to an outside ethnic background, but due to concubinage relationships with Nayars and Varmas in the past. In fact the Raja of Cannanore was renouned for having relationships with thiyya servants, however the children born from such relationships did not have the rights of inheritance, and were not considered to be the children of the higher caste individuals. This is the same reason why many Nayars have a fair complexion, it is due to mixing with Namboothiri brahmins, however these relationships were known as Sambandhams and was a casual form of marriage, and the children of these relationships had the right to call the namboothiri his father, but did not have the rights of inheritance. in relation to "dravidian" features, there is not a single person in kerala who does not have a dravidian ancestor, and there are very few who do not have a tinge of "aryan" (namboothiri) features. in the past before caste systems became solid, namboothiris (thought to be pure aryan) sired children with native women who were accepted as namboothiris. this is why namboothiris, although they are very fair, can also show dark skinned features. through sambandham with nairs and from them, concubinage with thiyyas and then in turn other extramarital relationships with vishwakarmas, etc. not to mention a whole host of other races added to the mix, you see the broad spectrum of color in kerala society. its not as easy as classifying as dravidian/aryan, but there is also australoid, some mongoloid and other influences over the ages (contact with romans, israelites, etc.) Kshatriya knight 22:00, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Suhruthe - pls dont purify the nair-nambuthithiri Sexual relationship by calling it marriage or Sambandham.. It's nothing but prostituition.. If you are not aware, the Nair lady had to have sexual relationship with local Nambuthiri before she is married to a Nair. We never had such an ugly relationship. And it's not true that thiyyas had any concubinage relationship with Varmas or Nair. The Varmas or Nairs never had blue eyes.. We feel proud for not accepting Hinduism in the early years.

Please sign your comments. Yes Nambuthris had relationship first with Nayar girl before she could marry, but it was not prostitution, nor concubinage. Prostitutes sell their body for money, concubines are financially dependant upon others. This was not the case with Nayar women. Sambandhams and these relationships were to help secure political support/power, as Nambuthris and Nayars, who were the main wealthy people in the past, could form interconnections and interrelationships, which could come in handy during times of political upheaval, or for land trading, etc. Secondly thiyyas did have relationships with Nayars and Varmas, though not as frequently as Nayar/Nambuthri. And about the blue eyes? I have seen Nambuthris, Nayars, Thiyyas and people from Scheduled Castes with blue and green eyes. The out of India theory for Thiyyas is worth having a look into, but it doesn't seem viable. North Kerala people on average are lighter than their South Kerala counterparts, regardless of caste. I know many dark skinned Thiyyas with Dravidian features, how can that happen if Thiyyas had nothing to do with Ezhavas and were of a distinct race? Kshatriya Grandmaster 10:16, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

First of all the nampoothiris are mostly dark in complexion & short in stature which even puts their aryan background into question. The north indian brahmins follow the vedas whereas the nampoothiris follow adi mimamsa which are rituals prior to the scripting of the vedas.Hence, the nampoothiris are in no way so called aryan (Aryan race itself is a myth)race & where never fair in complexion. Secondly, prostitution refers to giving sexual favours in return of monetary benefit. In the olden times monetary benefit was in the form of land trading hence, Nair women let the nampoothiris to whet their sexual appetite in favour of monetary benefit in the form of getting land. Thus, most of the land which nairs are in possession today are because their men blindly accepted the sexual right of the nampoothiri over their women(Nair). The proof of this socially accepted prostitution of Nair women is evident from the fact that most of the Nairs are dark in complexion (result of nampoothiris dark complexion). In 1905 the Nair society took a step in the right direction when the youngsters in their community stood up against their women being deflowered for the first time by nampoothiri men & halted the practice of this socially accepted prostitution of nair women. If this practice was good then why did the nair society end it in 1905. The thiyyas always had their father to refer to which is why even today thiyyas are known either by the two initials (refering to their fathers & mothers tharavaad) or by their fathers name. Whereas the nairs since, they could not refer to their biological father (nampoothiri would never allow his name to be used by his illegitimate offsprings)had to resort to the use of the caste name Nair. The thiyya men of north malabar because of their numerical superiority & inherent pride of not accepting the diktats of the nampoothiris were notorious in maintaining sexual relations with nampoothiri women which occassionaly lead to Smarthavicharam. Many occassions the nampoothiri men would turn a blind eye to such relations as it would lead to dishonour to the family & could lead to altercation with the aggressiveThiyyas who were ever ready to physically take on the namboothiri. Sometimes Smarthavicharam lead to the nampoothiri women getting married to Thiyya men. Tharavaad like "Madathil" in Kannur is an example of such Thiyya men sexual conquest of nampoothiri women.--Yashkumar1970 (talk) 16:00, 19 June 2011 (UTC)--Yashkumar1970 (talk) 15:45, 19 June 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yashkumar1970 (talk • contribs) 15:32, 19 June 2011 (UTC) Yashkumar1970 (talk) 15:41, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

Edits by 59.92.158.178

You may edit whatever way you want as long as others agree. But please don;t write statements you wrote in the Edit Summary (Ezhavas.. pls don't allign with with for glory). Ezhavas have enough glorious past to be proud of and need not allign with Thiyyas for that. I have a good info about thiyya thru my Thiyya relatives. If you are going by the history that Mr. Damu has written in his book, I would call it fatasy. Let thiyyas be a different caste /group of a different origin and culture. Why don't you provide some genuine information? This article revolves around Damu's book.

Other thiyyas - Sorry I had to write this.

Well other than those who are closely related to SNDP and the their temples ..none of us thiyyas do like to align ourselves with Ezhavas ..Even the SNDP leaders like Mr.Natesan have rightly said that these two are two different communites.. and Mr Pallathottath.. you come and stay in thiyya heartlands like Kannur.You will come to know how we ppl think..

Okay.. Agreed. Both are different communities. Why don't you write something meaningful? LANKAPARVAM is not a history text. I can assure you that I will never edit this article. Fyi, my father-in-law is from Kannur. User:Pallathottath

so sad to see this page ... pitty on the poor fello who want to trace his anccestry based on book wihich uses only imaginationand no facts

« Modernization catches up with Malayalees | Main  | Thanks Microsoft »

Book Review: Lankaparvam (Malayalam)

Lankaparvam by T. Damu, DC Books, 50 pages.

Recently the Malayalam book Lankaparvam was in the news for making the claim that Thiyyas were from Kyrgyzstan. Fascinated by this fact, I managed to get this book which is about the history of Sri Lanka.

The author of the book is T. Damu, who has published many novels, short stories and articles under the pen name T. D. Vadakkumbad. He has also worked as newspaper reporter and associate editor for various newspapers in India. Currently he is an officer in a big unnamed company, and it was on a business trip that he reached Sri Lanka.

The book consists of a total of 48 pages of which seven are color photographs, and can be finished within the commercial break time of That 70s Show. As the author starts on his flight from Thiruvanathapuram, he is reminded of the Hanuman's flight to the prosperous Lanka of Ravana and this Ramayana theme runs throughout the book as the author travels to places like Seetha Eliya, which has the only temple dedicated to Seetha.

The book also talks about the origin of the SriLankan people from a princess in Bengal, moves to the arrival of Buddhism, talks about the origin of Nairs and Ezhavas, and skips directly to the LTTE, all within about thirty pages. Even though the chapters seem to suggest historical progression, most of the contents are mythological stories. The author takes them seriously and presents them as facts even without expressing a bit of doubt.

So when he suggests that in a place called Nuvara Eliya, the soil is black in color because Ravanas palace was burned down by Hanuman here or that the presence of Asoka trees in some area suggests that Seetha was held by Ravana there, you know these are without any basis. Such stories are prevalent all around India too and you have to accept them for what they are --- legends.

The author says that Thiyyas are different from Ezhavas and for this he cites two stories. The first one says that that Lord Siva saw seven women taking a bath in a river and decided to get them. For this he made the place cold and convertedhimself to fire and when the women came to warm themselves near the fire, he gotall of them. The children born of that relationship are called Thiyyas since they were born from Thee (fire in Malayalam). The second story says that Lord Shiva wanted to booze and for getting someone to climb the coconut tree to get toddy, he created Thiyyas.

Once these, Intelligent Design, equivalent theories have been presented, the author kicks it up a notch and suggests that some people migrated from Kyrgyzstan in 7000 B.C to India. Since they were from Thiyyan mountain area (Tien Shan), they were called Thiyyas. According to him an ancient book from Finland called the Edda has a mention of Thiyyas, so it could be that Thiyyas were from Finland also.

This book does not provide a single reference for this theory or any research which confirms this theory. There is a Salem in Massachussets and does not mean that people living there are from Salem, Tamil Nadu. If you look at the world map, you can spot places and races many such similarities, but similarity in names is not sufficient to prove such migration theories. Who knows what Thiyya in Finnish means?

All these doubts did not prevent The Hindu from writing this, "The predominant Thiyya community of Malabar migrated to Kerala in 7000 BC from Kyrgyzstan in the erstwhile Soviet Union, says a fresh study revealing their disputed origins".After reading the book, I found there was no study mentioned. It was just a casual statement in the middle of a bunch of mythologies.

For all you know, Thiyyas might be from Kyrgyzstan. But unfortunately the context in which this information is presented and the lack of any reference makes me a skeptic.

Posted on August 20, 2005 11:05 PM | Permalin

The main issue is here that every one wants to be a caucasian decendent.As far as i am concerned it doesn't matter from where did your ancestors belong. I belong to thiyya community which was a 'avarna" caste and our caste were denied the public roads and many necessities of life earlier,and as far as sexual relatiopnship with brahmins and varma's are concerned the nair ladies were used to maximum. it happened because, only the eldest of brahmin brothers could marry at that time and the rest had sex with thier house maids and this is the reason why polyandri was prevalent in nair caste.now let me tell uyou that recent Genetic studies show that the allelic distribution of Ezhavas in a bi-dimensional plot (correspondence analysis based on HLA-A, -B, and -C frequencies) has a rather strong East Eurasian element due to its proximity to the Mongol population in the same plot..so there my be a link between thiiya"s and ezhavas —Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.242.192.179 (talk) 10:40, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Edit request on 25 November 2012

Thiyya is a separate caste classified by the government of India. Please see http://www.ncbc.nic.in/Pdf/kerala.pdf

No. 21 is for Thiyya while Ezhava comes under No. 14.

Considering this facts, this page should be separately kept.

Pnranjith (talk) 10:53, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

Not done: Your source lists Thiyya in the same group as Ezhava, which is where the redirect points now, so I don't think a separate page is warranted. If you disagree, however, you should bring the matter up on the talk page of the protecting administrator or at requests for unprotection, in that order. Let me know if you have any questions about the process. Best regards — Mr. Stradivarius ^{(have a chat)} 11:19, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

Are you mad? Did you see Ezhava in No. 14 where Thiyya are listed in No. 21!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.230.50.69 (talk) 10:30, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 30 December 2012

Please restore the Thiyya wiki back. You can clearly see the page history and find the reason

117.206.1.35 (talk) 19:39, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit protected}} template. --Redrose64 (talk) 21:04, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

Redirected to Ezhava

I have just redirected this article to Ezhava. There were protracted discussions in early 2013 regarding the validity of hosting a separate page for Thiyya, the outcome of which was that current sources do not justify it. The discussions can be see in Talk:Ezhava/Archive_5. - Sitush (talk) 14:22, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

Is there any consensus to redirect. Can we try [WP:SOFTRDR] Since this article explains more about Thiyya, i think soft redirection is better solution irajeevwiki talk 01:35, 24 December 2013 (UTC)

The consensus to redirect lies in the Ezhava talk page archives linked above. The move of this draft into mainspace was a good-faith mistake made by a now-retired admin (see [here). In any event, Drmies has now protected this article in such a way that only an admin can move it, edit it or indeed reverse the protection. That was done more or less per my request at User talk:Martijn Hoekstra. - Sitush (talk) 07:27, 24 December 2013 (UTC)

• [threat redacted, Drmies (talk)]

“ An Izhuvan will eat rice cooked by a Tiyan, but a Tiyan will not eat rice cooked by an Izhuvan a circum- stance pointing to the inferiority of the Izhuvan. A Nayar, as well as a Tiyan, will partake of almost any form of food or drink, which is prepared even by a Mappilla (Malabar Muhammadan), who is deemed inferior to both. But the line is drawn at rice, which must be prepared by one of equal caste or class, or by a superior.

An Izhuvan, partaking of rice at a Tiyan's house, must eat it in a verandah ; he cannot do so in the house, as that would be defilement to the Tiyan. Not only must the Izhuvan eat the rice in the verandah, but he must wash the plates, and clean up the place where he has eaten. Again, an Izhuvan could have no objection to drinking from a Tiyan's well. Further, there is practically no mixture in the distribution of Tiyans and Izhuvans

The South Malabar Tiyan bridegroom, dressed as if for a wrestling match, with his cloth tied tight about his loins, carries a sword and shield, and is escorted by two companions similarly equipped, dancing their way along. The Izhuvan does not carry a sword under any circumstances.

The chief feature of his wedding ceremony is a singing match. This, called the vatil-tura-pattu, or open the door song, assumes the form of a contest between the parties of the bridegroom and bride.

The story of Krishna and his wife Rukmini is supposed to be alluded to. We have seen it all under slightly different colour at Conjeeveram. Krishna asks Rukmini to open the door, and admit him. She refuses, thinking he has been gallivanting with some other lady. He beseeches ; she refuses. He explains, and at length she yields. The song is more or less extem- pore, and each "side must be ready with an immediate answer. The side which is reduced to the extremity of having no answer is beaten and under ignominy.

Marriage is strictly forbidden between two persons belonging to the same illam. The bride and bridegroom must belong to different illams. In fact, the illams are exogamous.

The following formula is repeated by the headman of the bride's party. Translated as accurately as possible, it runs thus. "The tara and changati of both sides having met and consulted ; the astrologer having fixed an auspicious day after examining the star and porutham ; permission having been obtained from the tara, the relations, the illam and kulam, the father, uncle, and the brothers, and from the eight and four (twelve illams) and the six and four (ten kiriyams) ; the conji and adayalam ceremonies and the four tazhus having been performed, let me perform the kanjikudi ceremony for the marriage of .... The son of . . . . With .... Daughter of .... In the presence of muperium. ”

- Castes and Tribes of Southern India (Vol - 7)

by British museologist Edgar Thurston (1855-1935)

Thiyyas belongs to 8 illams,from which their orgin are believed to be from. Each and every thiyyan in malabar(also someparts of karnataka) belongs any of these 8 illams.

Ezhava,Mappilas,Chovan,Chon,PandyChon,Maravachon,Velankandi chon,Marvar-velan- Chozan,Vaaniya,Nair,Paraya,Pulaya did not have any illam as their origin .

Kadathanaadan Chekavar

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Belongings to Haplogroup L. Indo-Aryan caucasian Class (Unlike ezhavas of haplogroup C australoids,Nairs of K and Namboothiris of H) from central Asian Thiyassa valley of Tia-Shan Mountain Ranges lying south of Russia to North Malabar. Genetic Marker for this group in general is KLM9/M20. Ancestors traveled through Rajasthan where the people who settled were known as sekovars. They were probably descendants of Rajputs,who later became fierce fighters and warriors. From there ,the group migrated through the sind province,Gujarat, Maharashtra , and to southern India. The thiyya group acquired warrior qualities, martial arts, and acrobatic talents from the ancestors living in the Thiyyas valley in Kyrgyzstan and the pamir plateau ( north-central Asia). These class of people were great warriors of ever. (Scientific DNA Studies on Thiyya published in the book ‘North Africa to North Malabar ’ ) Kadathanadan chekavar (talk) 06:35, 6 November 2016 (UTC)

Admin pls stop redirecting to Ezhava Kadathanadan chekavar (talk) 06:36, 6 November 2016 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 21 January 2014

Thiyya is a seperate community not to be confused with ezhava. Kindly open a new page for Thiyya community exclusively. Nithinkuriyangara (talk) 17:40, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

Oppose per responses to above requests for the same thing. Jackmcbarn (talk) 19:41, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit protected}} template. --Redrose64 (talk) 21:00, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 7 November 2016

Thiyya and ezhava are different

Proof is here :

“ An Izhuvan will eat rice cooked by a Tiyan, but a Tiyan will not eat rice cooked by an Izhuvan a circum- stance pointing to the inferiority of the Izhuvan. A Nayar, as well as a Tiyan, will partake of almost any form of food or drink, which is prepared even by a Mappilla (Malabar Muhammadan), who is deemed inferior to both. But the line is drawn at rice, which must be prepared by one of equal caste or class, or by a superior.

An Izhuvan, partaking of rice at a Tiyan's house, must eat it in a verandah ; he cannot do so in the house, as that would be defilement to the Tiyan. Not only must the Izhuvan eat the rice in the verandah, but he must wash the plates, and clean up the place where he has eaten. Again, an Izhuvan could have no objection to drinking from a Tiyan's well. Further, there is practically no mixture in the distribution of Tiyans and Izhuvans

The South Malabar Tiyan bridegroom, dressed as if for a wrestling match, with his cloth tied tight about his loins, carries a sword and shield, and is escorted by two companions similarly equipped, dancing their way along. The Izhuvan does not carry a sword under any circumstances.

The chief feature of his wedding ceremony is a singing match. This, called the vatil-tura-pattu, or open the door song, assumes the form of a contest between the parties of the bridegroom and bride.

The story of Krishna and his wife Rukmini is supposed to be alluded to. We have seen it all under slightly different colour at Conjeeveram. Krishna asks Rukmini to open the door, and admit him. She refuses, thinking he has been gallivanting with some other lady. He beseeches ; she refuses. He explains, and at length she yields. The song is more or less extem- pore, and each "side must be ready with an immediate answer. The side which is reduced to the extremity of having no answer is beaten and under ignominy.

Marriage is strictly forbidden between two persons belonging to the same illam. The bride and bridegroom must belong to different illams. In fact, the illams are exogamous.

The following formula is repeated by the headman of the bride's party. Translated as accurately as possible, it runs thus. "The tara and changati of both sides having met and consulted ; the astrologer having fixed an auspicious day after examining the star and porutham ; permission having been obtained from the tara, the relations, the illam and kulam, the father, uncle, and the brothers, and from the eight and four (twelve illams) and the six and four (ten kiriyams) ; the conji and adayalam ceremonies and the four tazhus having been performed, let me perform the kanjikudi ceremony for the marriage of .... The son of . . . . With .... Daughter of .... In the presence of muperium. ”

- Castes and Tribes of Southern India (Vol - 7)

by British museologist Edgar Thurston (1855-1935)

Thiyyas belongs to 8 illams,from which their orgin are believed to be from. Each and every thiyyan in malabar(also someparts of karnataka) belongs any of these 8 illams.

Ezhava,Mappilas,Chovan,Chon,PandyChon,Maravachon,Velankandi chon,Marvar-velan- Chozan,Vaaniya,Nair,Paraya,Pulaya did not have any illam as their origin .

Kadathanaadan Chekavar

---

---

Belongings to Haplogroup L. Indo-Aryan caucasian Class (Unlike ezhavas of haplogroup C australoids,Nairs of K and Namboothiris of H) from central Asian Thiyassa valley of Tia-Shan Mountain Ranges lying south of Russia to North Malabar. Genetic Marker for this group in general is KLM9/M20. Ancestors traveled through Rajasthan where the people who settled were known as sekovars. They were probably descendants of Rajputs,who later became fierce fighters and warriors. From there ,the group migrated through the sind province,Gujarat, Maharashtra , and to southern India. The thiyya group acquired warrior qualities, martial arts, and acrobatic talents from the ancestors living in the Thiyyas valley in Kyrgyzstan and the pamir plateau ( north-central Asia). These class of people were great warriors of ever. (Scientific DNA Studies on Thiyya published in the book ‘North Africa to North Malabar ’ )

Adhithya Kiran Chekavar (talk) 17:53, 7 November 2016 (UTC)

Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit protected}} template. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 19:47, 7 November 2016 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 26 January 2017

Since Thiyya and Ezhava are different from its name itself remove the page from protected to semi-protected. We are planning to move legally against vandalism. please remove the site from protected Kadathanadan chekavar (talk) 17:59, 26 January 2017 (UTC)

@Kadathanadan chekavar: Not done: requests for decreases to the page protection level should be directed to the protecting admin or to Wikipedia:Requests for page protection if the protecting admin is not active or has declined the request. Philroc^{My contribs} 20:57, 26 January 2017 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 23 March 2018

Firstly, I do not belong to any of these castes group. The Ezhavas has a Singhalese origin. The recent genetic study showed that Thiyyas are migrated from Krygisthan. Considering these two groups as one is pointless. The redirection of the page is unfair. Original research work is not available on the internet. This page was deliberately redirected by Sitush. I suppose that he belongs to Ezhava caste. The Thiyya caste is distinctly listed in Indian caste system. The admins are requested to act on it. Praveece (talk) 17:48, 23 March 2018 (UTC)

We do not use genetics studies for articles relating to specific castes - they are far too problematic. - Sitush (talk) 00:26, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

Then it shows how reliable your edits are. Do you know that human migrations are studied with the aid of genetics? And, the caste lineage is studied under the mitochondrial DNA for maternal sources and other structures in DNA. The caste system exists in the society unless these specific genetic structures are broken. I know that you are not going to revert back those changes unless pressured. However you try, you cannot make a false as true. People consider Wikipedia as a reliable source of reference. It's pity that you guys degrading the credibility of this knowledge resource with your self-centered intention. Such a person should be removed from the administering role.

References

Protected edit request on 28 April 2019

Ezhavars or Ezhamites or Elamites (**Ezham means Home land of Elam Or Island of Srilanka and Ezhamites Native Islanders)

Thiyyars Or ThiAyrs or ThirAyars (**Migrated from the Tian shen and Thira Region of Crete island)

Nairs or Nayars or Nagars (Migrated from Central asia and Sino Tibetan Region)

I would like clarify the evolution of Thiyya, Nair and Ezhavar Clans of Kerala to specify attributes of these clans with other Genealogical Lineages of this Hind-Kush (india) region. This would be a blend of Mythology and Haplogroup study of Tribes.

Ezhavars or izhavars or illavars are Originated as Elamo-Iranian tribes at western "ilam" provice of Iran and evolved as an Indo-Dravidian race at Harappa Valley Civilisation. They have migrated down south approx 45 years back via 2 possible migration, one was through indus valley and other possibility thru arabian sea to Srilanka (izham island). As per vedic terms they are direct sucessors of ila, who was daughter of shradheva manu with Haplogroup H/I/J/K subgroup K-M/R1a

Thiyyars Or ThiAyrs are Originated as Caucasian Tribe at Tien Shan region of Central asia and evolved as a Indo-Scythian Race, who were spread across Hindu Kush Valley till Thira of Crete island, Hence they are also known as Thirayar. They have migrated down south to North Malabar approximarely 30K to 35K years back through the indus valley. As per vedic interpretation it comes under a Chandravanshi Clan Or Lunar lineage. (Genealogical Haplogroup H/ I/J/K with submutation to L-M & R1b)…

Nairs or Nagars or Newars are Originated as Naga Tribe at Hindu-Kush region of Central Asia and evolved as a Indo-Mangloid race at Sino-Tibetan valley known or as western brachycephal Tribes. They have migrated down south approx 25K to 30K (thousand) years back through North East valley. As per vedic terms placed in to power Nagavanshi Clan of Partial Solar-Lunar Lineage (Haplogroup H/I/J/K with sub group L-T and R2a etc)

Nambudiris were Nordics Breeds from Indo Caucasian region migrated in to india close to 1500BC & they termed themselves as Indo Aryan. Largely Agnivanshi Brahmins

To clarify further details, i would take the support of myths and history so that all of you understand how these lineages, tribes, clans and caste formed from a single human breed. I may need a bit of geological facts and science also to make it more clearer on this subject.

It is a myth about ila marrying vishrava, son of sage Pulastya, in which they had a son called Kubera, who ruled Lanka. Kubera clan was known as Yakshas and Yakshis.. would require me to detail you in the geneology from the 7th manu, who was a Dravidian (Known as Shradhadeva manu) and also need to link all Sapt-Rishis name involved in those chains. Shradhadeva Manu considered to be one of human survivors of great deluge & was counted as a Indo-Dravdian or Elamo Dravidian with a 7th mutation genealogy (Haplogroup -A to H), which largely found in Elam Iran, later in the course of deluge he sailed to Izham Srilanka Or Malaya mountain. When we say 7th mutation it means already 6 generation of breeds were already crossed.

He survived the great deluge with his wife shradha, 2 children and other prajapathis, hence we count human evolution further there onwards only. His son Ikshavaku was more fairer than his daughter ila but ila portrayed as lady strong as man…Ila married to Budha, who was Rishi atri's grandson and Chandra’s son to form a lineage called Lunar Dynasty,.where Ikshavaku continue his paternal lineage and called it Solar dynasty. The same myth is mentioned in all religious book in different names as Gilgimesh, Noah etc.

Following are the 4 major IndoDravidian Dynastical lineages in India. There are numerous sub clans and Tribes evolved out of it.

1) Lunar Lineage OR Chandravanshi OR Somavanshi (Rishi Atri> Chandra>Budha>Ila>Aila> pururuvas>Nahusha>Yayati>Yadu+brothers geneology) Rig and Sama veda followers***Breed Indo Scythian…(Tribes Ahir/Ayar/ThiAyr/ Yadav/Etc) Haplogroup H/I/J/K with LT/ R1B subgroups

2) Solar lineage or Surya Vanshi (Rishi Marichi>Kashyap>Surya>Shradhadev>Ikshavaku>Rama genealogy) Rig veda follower.***Breed Indo-Iranian (Tribes Simhala/Sinha/etc..Haplogroup H/I/J/K with K-M> >R/R1/ R1A/etc

3) Nagar lineage or Nagavanshi (Rishi Kashyap>Ananta naga>Vasuki>Takshak Nahusha Nag etc lineage) …Veda followed was largely Yajur…Breed Indo-Mangloid (Tribes Nagar/Newar/Nayar/Nair/Bunt etc) Haplogroup H/I/J/K with sub group L-M>>R2a

4) Agniras lineage or Agnivanshi (This is a combination of Rishi Agniras+Bhrighu lineage, as it strengthened after parasuramas intervention) Veda followed was Atharva ..Breed Indo-Caucasian Haplogroup H/I/J/K with R1a1a1b1 and R2b subgroups

Please proof read the typo error

Numerous Wars happened among these Dynasties for power and many internal conflicts too …One of such well known Lunar infight was called Mahabharata.

If you refer the timelines of these Dynasties, conflicts were observed to be aggravated after yayati’s period when his 5 kids Puru, Yadu, Anu , Turvas & Druhyu started competing with each other for power, where they started capturing kingdoms from Caucasian region till south Srilanka one by one..

a) Puru was taking care of their paternal kingdom surrounding kashi .

b) Yadhu build his power at Scythian region

c) Turvas at Tuvan region of Russia or Central asia,

d) Anu was managing around afghan/ Gandhar

e) Druhyu was towards Greek and Bactria

Later all those 5 brothers came together to nullify the power of solar dynasty and the merger was known as Kuru Kingom. From Yadus lineage only the Sahasrabahu Kartyavirarjuna born as Ahir king

Initially Nagavanshis were ruling Mahishmati kingdom under King Karkotaka Naga and later Lunar king Kartya veerarjuna captured this defeating Karkhota and took over..Then Kartya veera renamed the Lunar dynasty as the Haihayas of atri. If we split we Ahir+Ayars together forned AhirAyars,. Which become Haihays. Ahir or Ayar means vagabonds. Tienshan+Ayrs become = ThiAyrs > thiyyars…Some text says Thira+ Ayrs also.

There are so many religion as subsidiary of Hindu -Kush cultures were originated from Lunar Lineage, Viz: Shavism, shaminism, Jainism, Budhism, Thengrism,. Dakoism etc.

According to the puranas, Kerala was earlier known as Atreya Aranykam indicating the significance of Rishi Atri and his blood lineage..Atri's lineage of Ahir/Ayar/Yadavs formed a kingdom of Haihayas under the hierarchy of Lunar Dynasty, which later split up in to 27 chandravanshi clans & was initially ruled by Kartavirya Arjuna..

After the Mahishmati war defeat, later Nagavanshi lineage,moved to south east to set up their kingdom. At the other end Kartya veerarjuna become so egoistic and powerful that he started attacking many including Srilanka and even seized Ravan at Narmada Thad. Later Kartyavir fought with his own Rajya Guru Jamadhangini Maharshi and killed him for capturing the precious Kamadhenu.

According to myth there were series of counter attacks by Parasurama on Mahishmati as revenge of his father’s murder, due to which all those shaivist Yadava clans were transited down through konkan to Ezhimala and other Dravidian region.Parasurama son of Jamadhagni gone furious and took a revengeful war with all Lunar Kshatriyas and reached till Gokarana following the Haihayas king Kartavirya Arjuna,who was taken a more safer or strategic location of Ezhimala Hills, where to reach parasurama had to cross a long a sea stretch which was difficult But Parasuram done it probably by making a wooden float bridge or reclaiming the land, which was termed as thrown Axe and Reclaimed Kerala from Sea and that's how Atreya Aranyaka become Parashurama Kshetra. Nagavanshi (Nair) supported Parasurama in dealing with jungle and fighting the War over Ayrs of Haihaya (Thiyyars). Finally Parasuram killed Kartyaveerarjuna.

Parasuram being a saint was not much interested in ruling the kingdom and therefore he adopted a kid from the lineage of Velir Yadavas or Could be the lineage Mushkata Naga , who believed to be the heir of Mahishmati, had been coronated as King Ramagadha Mushika. Mushika means rat and this name adopted because this kid was found hidden in a cave filled with Rats.This was the first kingdom of Kerala, which in a way was formed by Thiyyars…Later by Bhrigus (parasurama lineage brahmins) there was a parallel ruling system established under chirakkal dynasty, which was originated from the union of Nambhudhiri and Nayar formed Nambhyaar.

Post 600BCE Thiyyars with support of Vellirs, billavar, malavar, vanavar and ezhavar etc as a Cheral group revolted and recaptured Mushika Kingdom from Namdhudiri and Nagars, which later proves the formation as Puzhinadu & Kongunadu Provinces and further spread across south as Cheraal “Athiyamān Kingdom”. Ayars of Velir even extended the kingdom to Travancore by a king Titiyan as Ay Kingdom in the early Tamil sangam period of 300 BC. This Dynastic lineage further extended to Srilanka as Jaffna Kingdom and in to Konkan under Kalachuri in 300CE to 500 CE by Maharaja Nannan.

Thiyyas are a very wider conceptual community with a similar routes like Nair or anyother Kshatriya or Warrior Clan but unfortunately pre-Independence Govt has combined Thiyyas with other few Tribes like Billavar, Ezhavar, Malayar, Vannavar etc, which basically resulted due to 3 conflicting factors

Thiyyas formed Cheral Warrior group and recaptured the power in malabar against Agnivanshi Brahmin and Nagavanshi Nairs in 3BCE. Cheral means come together with other group of tribes to fight against a common cause.Fought against Britishers under the banner extremist communist panel of bhagat singh and others, which was not acceptable for Congress party. ..Also supported Subash chandra bose INA.Supported Sree Narayan Guru in social reformation movement.

All the above fallback on the Britishers as well later Government and those rulers pushed us down in the ladder.. By the way we should feel proud as a community on all those revolts.

Above write up Explains the Tribal Evolution of Indian Continent in comparison to both Hindu Mythology & Global Genealogy, which mutually converges here. In the course of Tribal evolution there were various clans originated, which later post vedic era (1500BC) got transformed as the Caste system of india and the same has been used for the purpose of dividing the society for easy ruling, which was the tactics of Nordics or So called Indo Aryans. By the way Global racial thesis might have some basis to defend on but indian casteism doesn't have any base to validate its logic

This write up references taken from various Tribal Migration Studies conducted across globe, which in cumulative clarifies that no one is superior Or inferior by birth or by genes or by racial status as much deeper we travel in to Haplogroups, it makes us realise that the new born tribes are sightly advanced in thoughts than the Older genus and it's something like a new version of gadget released.Hence with the time that brand new or breed new also become older version down the line.. Having said that older breed carry better strength and sustainability like we say “Better older Wines”.

Dravidian Tribes Originted from the clan of 7th Manu, Shradhadeva who also known as Vaivishta manu, whose from the lineage of lord Surya> Kashyap>Marichi. When we term 7th manu it means there were 6 manavantar before him and there were differnt manus in each timelines of Manavantara. To know more about it you can refer wikipedia.Vaivishta Manu's era start after great deluge and he’s been called in different names in differnt myths. After the flood of great deluge manu's yacht or ark believed to be anchored on the top peak of a Moutain, which hindus belives as peak of Malaya Mountain Vis Aanamudi of Western Ghat. As per our myth Manu was accompanied with his wife, Seven Sages and their families. Western religions term this myth as Noah’s Ark or in Greek as Gilgimesh. By the way all these myths have many common characteristics.

Vaivishta Manu had 9 sons and 1 daughter. Manu believed to be brown skinned person with a multi genetical mutation. Manu and Wife migrated Elam province of parsian land (iran), hence he was known as parasan or parahan, which later become the roots of every dravidian tribes which we term in our local language as Paraya and his wife Shraddha devi been called as ‘Panthirakulam Petta Parayi". In this meaning, Manu become a Dalit as per Indian Casteism.

It’s convincing that majority of the Indo-Dravidian tribes and clans Originated from manu and his descendents. Further in tribal evolution his daughter ila also has a significant role and her name is linked at different areas with different person. It's believed that primarily ilan clan of tribes migrated in to srilanka and that island also termed as her ilam or elam (home) . The elamite tribal community of lankan island (Ezham) was known as Elamar or Ezhavar.

If we go back to the period of Great deluge the entire region of Hind (india) was flooded and the land below vindhya was captured by the beastly demons called Kalakeyas. They were too tactical in the water world, which made difficult for anyone to counter them in water bound land, Hence Manu requested help of Sage Agastya, who evacuated Kalakeyas by De-watering the land with the support of tribe called vellalars and later pushed Kalakeyas down to the islands of indian ocean with the help of vellir Yadava warriors, who were also known as Ayars Or Thirayars of Crete Or Thiyans of Tian shen... This Yadava clans believed to be Scythian Tribes.

From the geneological point,Kalakeya tribes can be linked with astraloid aborginal tribes like andamani jerova tribes, srilankan veddas, western ghat based kallars, maravar, kadars, munda etc. Many historical dynasties like Kalachuris, Kalabharas connect their genetical links with Kalakeyas. Myth states that Sage Agastya was not just diluting the risk of Kalakeyas rather he was the key man in amalgamating/ rehabilitating many of such abolished tribes in to the Dravidian Civilisation by bringing them back to the main stream. Many such tribes in combination formed local landlord group. For Eg Kallar, Maravar and Agamuthiyar joined together to form Mukalathor tribes to form Chola, Pandya & Pallava Dyansties. In the later timelines Agastya also brought many Sahya tribes of Western Ghat together to form a physically powerful group thats how Vanavar, Villavar, Oliyar, Meenavar & Kuravar formed Warfare group called Cheraal in association with Yadava Ayar tribes to evacut Sage Agastya strengthened the local tribes by training them over martial warfare and healthcare.

If we talk from the Genealogical point of view, Kalakeyas and Daityas (asuras) fall in to Haplogroup C & D, whch indicates prior to them also there were dehumanised beastly powerful tribal genus existed like Vanaras & Danavas (Rakshas) , those who can be counted under haplogroup A&B as Negroid and related genus. We shall consider the genetical mutation of Vaivishta Manu as Dravidian, which comes between 7th to 9th mutation, from haplogroup-H/I/J. Haplogroup H originates from a western iranian province of ilam or elam, which means Home land. Later Manu found to be migrated & settled in Indus valley civilisation (Harappan), which again help us to validate from the Historical point that the indus valley civilisation was abolished due to a devasting flood.

There were many such tribes originated from the lineage of manu, which evolved in to many tribes and clans.

One of such lineage originated from manu’s daughter ila’s marriage with Budha, who known as son of Soma or Chandra from the clan of Atri. They always stood as conflict lineage to suryavanshi and termed themselves as Chandravanshi or Lunar dynasty. They were equally appealing in terms of complexion and physic too. Numerous Kings and Dynasties formed out of Lunar, which includes King Yayati, Pururuvas, Yadu, Vishwamitra, Bharata, Pandavas & Kurus. Tribes under this category considered under Haplogroup K/L/M Mainly Scythian Tribes.

There is also a myth about ila marrying vishrava, son of sage Pulastya, in which they had a son called Kubera, who ruled Lanka. Kubera clan was known as Yakshas and Yakshis..There were few other tribal lineage evolved through Sage Bhrigu, which was known as Agni Vanshi. Another one from the Kashyapa through his wife Kadru called as Nagavanshi.Naga Haplogroup N/O/P . This Tribes Comes under Western Brachycephals.

Another lineage originated from the eldest Son http://ikshavaku.it’s known as Suryavansh or Solar Dyanasty. Solar lineage count their origin of clan thru vaivishta> Kashyap> Marich and termed themselves superior in race with sunny skinny.King Rama, Dileep are believed to born in this lineage. This guys count them in Haplogroup R/R1a/R1b.This tribes are counted as Indo Aryans, who believed to be preceders of Vedic Nordics 61.3.182.106 (talk) 14:58, 28 April 2019 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. — JJMC89 (T·C) 17:15, 28 April 2019 (UTC)

Nambiar ,Menon ,Kurup are sub castes of Nair. They have wikipedia page. why don't Thiyya ?

Nair of north malabar is called nambiar . they have their own wikipedia . why don't thiyya have one ?

please remove the redirect.

this is our demand for over 10 years. please undestand our feeling admins .

please remove protection and redirect.

let's have ourown wikipedia please . — Preceding unsigned comment added by Unniyarcha (talk • contribs) 12:44, 2 September 2019 (UTC)

Malayalam wikipedia page are seperate for thiyyar and ezhavar

https://ml.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E0%B4%A4%E0%B5%80%E0%B4%AF%E0%B5%BC

Malayalam wikipedia page are seperate for thiyyar and ezhavar.

Infact both are different

this is ezhava sslc certificate of 10th std from government of kerala - https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-3A5uDCf6MAE/WRNsjICxaOI/AAAAAAAABR8/ec8g3r1g1cctZn24U2P4WbZwPQZ1u595ACEw/s1600/Anagha%2B10th%2Bresult.jpg

this is thiyya sslc certificate for thiyya caste students - https://drive.google.com/file/d/1GAkpTd5jjZMLh3_SThl5N1eqqj9yXe47/view?usp=sharing

see the difference both are different . Malayalam wikipedia page are seperate for thiyyar and ezhavar please remove protection and translate contents of thiyyar Wikipedia to english wikipedia Kalangot (talk) 09:38, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

 Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit protected}} template. If you are interested in distinguishing the two, please start an article draft. Izno (talk) 14:11, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

Thiyyar wikipedia exist, Please redirect this to thiyyar wikipedia page

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiyyar# Kalangot (talk) 05:57, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

Kalangot (talk) 06:38, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

 Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit protected}} template. No, when I say draft, I mean draft. Please see the link I provided you previously; WP:AFC. Izno (talk) 12:10, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/User:Kalangot/sandbox/Thiyya please review and suggests changes — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kalangot (talk • contribs) 18:51, 9 October 2019 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 11 April 2020

I request the need of a Thiyya wikipedia page for better recording the culture and history of thiyya ethnic group from Malabar.There are even Menon , Nambiar ,Pilla , Kaimal pages even they are all belongs to Nair.

I request for the relaxation of protection in thiyya page Othayoth shankaran (talk) 09:13, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

Please create Draft:Thiyya with the article that you would like to see in main space. Then start a discussion at Talk:Ezhava and see what others think. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 19:44, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

Recent Kerala state government order on Thiyya

Malayalam .language of Kerala, where the caste is from,Thiyya wikipedia already exits for years :

https://ml.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E0%B4%A4%E0%B5%80%E0%B4%AF%E0%B5%BC

File:Malayala Manorama news report on Kerala state government's order to record 'Thiyya community' as such and not a subcaste of Ezhava.jpg

Malayala Manorama news report on Kerala state government's order to record 'Thiyya community' as such and not a subcaste of Ezhava

File:Kerala state government's order to record thiyya community as such and not as a sub caste of Ezhava.jpg

Kerala state government's order to record thiyya community as such and not as a sub caste of Ezhava

In 2020 July, Kerala state government has issued an order to record Thiyya as Thiyya and not as a part of Ezhava nor its subcaste. In India, converting or writing one caste as another is a criminal offense.

Link to order kerala government's order from their official site :

https://education.kerala.gov.in/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/govt.order_3072020.pdf

See the Kerala state government order and the followed news report given on right.

I hope Wikipedia also abides by the Indian Kerala government's official government order on the Thiyya caste.

So I request you to remove the redirect of Thiyya Wikipedia from Ezhava Wikipedia.

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit protected}} template. — JJMC89 (T·C) 05:08, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 29 December 2021

94.59.245.93 (talk) 19:08, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

Thiyya is different from Ezavha

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit protected}} template. Izno (talk) 05:36, 3 January 2022 (UTC)