Talk:Theodore Roosevelt High School (Kent, Ohio)
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Sourcing
[edit]The infobox should contain a ref for the enrollment. I have added a ref for the data which gives a value for the 2009-2010 academic year. Hence, I have added 2009-10 to the date parameter for the enrollment. The date of the report is not relevant, the date of the data is what matters. Thanks, Racepacket (talk) 04:27, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- As was discussed on my talk page, because the enrollment data is sourced within the body of the article (see the Demographics section) it does not need to be sourced in the infobox unless it's highly controversial or challengeable. The enrollment of a public high school is definitely not controversial. So you really haven't provided any additional or missing source; the source was already in the article in an appropriate location. The date of the report is definitely relevant since the "as of" is referencing the date the data comes from. The fact it includes some from 2009 is a minor detail at best. Again, this is a case of being over precise. Using an academic year ("2009-10") in the same way as a regular year is confusing in the infobox and awkward. The faculty number and the distinctions all use single years to denote either how recent the data is or when the distinction was awarded. It is not inaccurate to state that the data comes from 2010, since that is when some of it was collected and it was organized and published. Specifically related to enrollment, there is nothing to indicate it wasn't collected in 2010. I'm not sure what you meant in your edit summary about data that's unsourced. Everything in that article has a reliable source. --JonRidinger (talk) 04:55, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- As you prepare the article for FAC, please remember that unlike a GA review, the FA review will focus on the timeliness of the data presented. The Ohio Dept of Education "report card" lags behind because it reports a lot of data that is collected during an academic year such as test scores. However, the "report card" is not the only source of enrollment data, which is frequently available from the school district website. The article now has correctly reflected that the enrollment data in the infobox comes from the "report card" that was issued in August 2010 for the 2009-2010 academic year. The mean SAT data is from the 2008-09 academic year because that data was dropped in the 2009-2010 "report card". However, that does not stop us from searching other data sources for more current data. The example provided in Template:Infobox school/doc shows using a hyphenated academic year. Keep up the good work. Racepacket (talk) 13:25, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- Thanks for your concern for FAC, but do know I have some experience with FAC and am fully aware of the differences between GAN and FAC and that in writing articles, I write them towards passing FAC, not GAN.
- In terms of data, enrollment is much like census reports. Census reports are not up to date, and in many cases are years behind, yet a city article would have no problem passing FAC having info from the 2000 census in it (until the 2010 census is released). The Kent, Ohio article's entire demographics section is based on data from the 2000 census, despite the fact there is a more recent "estimate". In this case, the enrollment number is apparently an average of the entire school year, so it is hardly "way out of date" nor inaccurate. Considering that the 1,336 number was already referenced in the Demographics section, I still am not seeing how there would be any confusion as to where it came from and why it needs a specific citation in the infobox. This school does not publish detailed enrollment numbers, at least in a very obvious place (usually it's *very* general mention that is never updated), which is why I used the report cards in the first place. Even if it did, I still wouldn't label it as "2009-10" enrollment, I'd label it "August 2010" or just "2010" or whenever it was taken since like a census, enrollment is usually a snapshot. Even then, it's largely irrelevant. I chose to use the report card as the source for enrollment, specifically because of the breakdown of demographic characteristic used later in the article; nowhere have I stated it is *the* authoritative source. It would be one thing if I were using an enrollment number from the 2002 or 2005 report card, but this is the most recent, so timeliness will not be an issue at FAC, nor will there be issues of reliability or bias.
- The point of any article is to provide accurate and important information, not necessarily up-to-the-day precise information (which is why I reverted Kent4Eva's initial change in the enrollment number), particularly on something of very low importance like a largely unknown public high school. Does it make it more difficult to understand because it says "2010" and not "2009-10" or that a number does not have a citation in one place? Why not cite everything in the infobox? The ACT and SAT scores are cited in the infobox because they are not cited anywhere else, same with the CEEB code. Perhaps the scores need a "2008" after them as well, but they are the most recent ones available. Also, examples in infobox documentation do not mean it *must* be exactly like that. Those are meant to be guidelines, not absolutes. --JonRidinger (talk) 16:58, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- (After edit conflict) I think that things that are likely to change on a regular basis should be referenced and have the year given in the infobox. Things in the lead are usually not referenced (since there is a ref in the body of the article), but I think it helps to have refs in the infobox for things that are likely to change on an annual basis. This has several advantages. If someone comes along and randomly changes it, it allows anyone to see the ref and fix (or update) the number. If updating, it saves having to hunt for the ref in the body of the article. If anyone is updating, they only have to look at the ref, the ref then shows all the places it is used (so all occurences are updated). I added "school year" to the enrollment line to hopefully make it clearer, as the report card said it was for the school year. In the infobox, I would have refs for the enrollment, the number of faculty, and the SAT and ACT scores, and would also give the date or year for each. Agree that FAC is OK with data that is somehwta out of date, but do think it always helps to give the year. On a completely unrelated note, while I like the map, the dots are too close in color and I cannot tell which is which - the dots need to be two more different colors. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 17:06, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- I took out "school year" because I don't think it's really necessary, even in a school article. Since the argument seems to be that the data was collected in both 2009 and 2010 so we shouldn't just use 2010 by itself (at least in this instance...if the enrollment source were from the school, it would definitely be a single-year "as of"), then having "school year" isn't needed since it really was collected in both 2009 and 2010. I still think it's a bit of overkill ("2009-10" vs "2010"), but oh well. I'll fix the map...what I'll probably do is put a small letter "R" on Roosevelt and a "C" on Central and change the pink more. I'm making a map of the elementary districts and have done similar. --JonRidinger (talk) 18:39, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- Jon, I think you misunderstood my use of the word "census." Many school administrators call the head count of enrollment and other student characteristics a census. I think that the article should use the most recently available enrollment data and test score data. If this data is available directly from the school district, there is no need to wait for the state to issue its annual "report card," particularly if it has dropped the reporting of mean SAT scores. I do not understand why you believe that the 2009-10 report card represents data from both 2009 and 2010. I think that the school reported enrollment data to the state in the fall of 2009, and they used that data as representative for the entire 2009-10 school year. Do we have any evidence that there was a separate headcount generated for the spring 2010 semester? Thanks, Racepacket (talk) 20:42, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- Nope, no misunderstanding here at all. I'm fully aware that most enrollment numbers are a type of census or headcount; I update the enrollment stats for the Kent State University article every semester. The point is that any enrollment is a measure from one particular moment in time. While I can go with using "2009-10" on this instance in the infobox since it can be assumed the enrollment was averaged using both years, if the number had come from the school, it most likely would've been a census-type snapshot and thus it would be valid to put "2009" or "August 2009" in the "as of parameter" since that is when the number came from.
- Not sure what you mean by "no need to wait". If you think I'm relying only on the report cards as some kind of preference, please understand that is not the case. I used the report card enrollment data because the school's own enrollment data is not readily available or updated. Other high school articles I have worked on have been different; I'll use numbers from the school where they are available. For Roosevelt, the enrollment number given is "1,378" here and that is not dated (most likely from fall 2009 since the page is copyrighted 2009-2010; I know it hasn't been updated for this school year), so the state number is actually the most recent. We cannot assume that the school simply reported a number and that was used since it doesn't say that, on top of the way it is presented as "average daily enrollment" as opposed to just "enrollment". Simply saying because colleges or other states or other schools do it one way does not mean we can make the same assumption here. Neither of us has hard "evidence" to prove that it's a one-time census or an on-going count, though I have reason to believe it's not a one time thing based on what I said. Further, the state also measures attendance and graduation rates as part of their rating, so keeping an up-to-date enrollment figure is important for those ratings. As for test scores (which are not covered in this article), the district gets their test score data from the state; they await the annual release of those report cards as much as the public and get them only a short time before they are released in August. Again, I'm really surprised this has even become an issue. It's like I'm having to argue for the reliability of a source. --JonRidinger (talk) 22:57, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- Jon, I think you misunderstood my use of the word "census." Many school administrators call the head count of enrollment and other student characteristics a census. I think that the article should use the most recently available enrollment data and test score data. If this data is available directly from the school district, there is no need to wait for the state to issue its annual "report card," particularly if it has dropped the reporting of mean SAT scores. I do not understand why you believe that the 2009-10 report card represents data from both 2009 and 2010. I think that the school reported enrollment data to the state in the fall of 2009, and they used that data as representative for the entire 2009-10 school year. Do we have any evidence that there was a separate headcount generated for the spring 2010 semester? Thanks, Racepacket (talk) 20:42, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- I took out "school year" because I don't think it's really necessary, even in a school article. Since the argument seems to be that the data was collected in both 2009 and 2010 so we shouldn't just use 2010 by itself (at least in this instance...if the enrollment source were from the school, it would definitely be a single-year "as of"), then having "school year" isn't needed since it really was collected in both 2009 and 2010. I still think it's a bit of overkill ("2009-10" vs "2010"), but oh well. I'll fix the map...what I'll probably do is put a small letter "R" on Roosevelt and a "C" on Central and change the pink more. I'm making a map of the elementary districts and have done similar. --JonRidinger (talk) 18:39, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- (After edit conflict) I think that things that are likely to change on a regular basis should be referenced and have the year given in the infobox. Things in the lead are usually not referenced (since there is a ref in the body of the article), but I think it helps to have refs in the infobox for things that are likely to change on an annual basis. This has several advantages. If someone comes along and randomly changes it, it allows anyone to see the ref and fix (or update) the number. If updating, it saves having to hunt for the ref in the body of the article. If anyone is updating, they only have to look at the ref, the ref then shows all the places it is used (so all occurences are updated). I added "school year" to the enrollment line to hopefully make it clearer, as the report card said it was for the school year. In the infobox, I would have refs for the enrollment, the number of faculty, and the SAT and ACT scores, and would also give the date or year for each. Agree that FAC is OK with data that is somehwta out of date, but do think it always helps to give the year. On a completely unrelated note, while I like the map, the dots are too close in color and I cannot tell which is which - the dots need to be two more different colors. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 17:06, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- As you prepare the article for FAC, please remember that unlike a GA review, the FA review will focus on the timeliness of the data presented. The Ohio Dept of Education "report card" lags behind because it reports a lot of data that is collected during an academic year such as test scores. However, the "report card" is not the only source of enrollment data, which is frequently available from the school district website. The article now has correctly reflected that the enrollment data in the infobox comes from the "report card" that was issued in August 2010 for the 2009-2010 academic year. The mean SAT data is from the 2008-09 academic year because that data was dropped in the 2009-2010 "report card". However, that does not stop us from searching other data sources for more current data. The example provided in Template:Infobox school/doc shows using a hyphenated academic year. Keep up the good work. Racepacket (talk) 13:25, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- It's certainly labouring a point that is taking up an undue amount of valuable editing time. All civilised countries have a record somewhere of the number of pupils in a school. The UK maintains several sources for the number on roll: the county council education department, the ONS, the Ofsted school inspection, and the school itself, and I am sure tat America has such systems too - if not better. It's not our mission to record the most up to date figures if the last official head count was even three years ago - eg.: 'As of 2007' etc, is perfectly admissible. Approximations, or round up or down is also perfectly acceptable. I suggest either find a source, any source, then quote it, or get a few more editors to comment here and arrive at a consensus.--Kudpung (talk) 23:45, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
For this school, there is one source I linked above from the district, there is another from the state that has 1,380 (which it had the year before), and there's the report card file. Of those, the report card is the most recent since the school and district have not posted any public enrollment numbers as of yet. Believe me, if they did, I would've used them. The current source was found long ago and included and updated in a proper, normal matter. Again, I'm just surprised this has even become an issue, particularly after the article was dormant for a few months and only mis-informed edits by two newbies changed that. It's like I'm trying to argue using something like GreatSchools.com or some blog for the enrollment source when the source is the official report from the Ohio Department of Education. We're splitting hairs over a minor issue. --JonRidinger (talk) 00:45, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
- I've moved this entire discussion to the Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Schools for three reasons: I'd already moved it away from your tp in fairness to you; it could be an issue that affects all school pages; and although you already have a 2:1 consensus on your side, I think more voices should be heard from the WP:WPSCHOOLS - although for the reqsons I stated, that may be slow in coming. I don't personally mind which way a consensus falls, but this arguing about petty points takes up too much serious editing time, and such points don't make it any easier for any new editors to write new articles about schools.Kudpung (talk) 01:14, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
- I am sure that the parameter was intended to reflect the measuring date ("as of") not the report date. So, in the example we have here, the enrollment_as_of parameter should be "2009-10" and not the date of the report "August 2010." I am happy with the infobox in its current form. Again, the people reviewing the article for FA will not be confined to members of WikiProject Schools, just as I reviewed the article for GA. Good luck. Racepacket (talk) 06:12, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
- Ha! Wikiproject schools ;) well yes, that's the place to come and check out how many GA and FA school articles we have and with how many such a monstrous kafuffle was made over the number of students. Talking about projects, isn't that where this should be being discussed now? --Kudpung (talk) 12:21, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, I addressed this at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Schools. --JonRidinger (talk) 17:45, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
- Ha! Wikiproject schools ;) well yes, that's the place to come and check out how many GA and FA school articles we have and with how many such a monstrous kafuffle was made over the number of students. Talking about projects, isn't that where this should be being discussed now? --Kudpung (talk) 12:21, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
- I am sure that the parameter was intended to reflect the measuring date ("as of") not the report date. So, in the example we have here, the enrollment_as_of parameter should be "2009-10" and not the date of the report "August 2010." I am happy with the infobox in its current form. Again, the people reviewing the article for FA will not be confined to members of WikiProject Schools, just as I reviewed the article for GA. Good luck. Racepacket (talk) 06:12, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
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