Talk:The Latymer School

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Stephen Way (talk · contribs)

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awkward prose

could we make the beginning of the article a bit more awkward please, perhaps we could crowbar in 'bastion' as well as 'canon' somewher

Copy / paste

Looks like much of this has been taken from the school's website, sometimes edited to make it make less sense.

Current version of the article has "Pupils were educated in "God's true religion" and reading English to the age of thirteen at existing petty schools. The boys had to wear the red Latymer cross on their sleeves and were under a duty to carry out the provisions of his will "unto the end of the world"."

The first sentence doesn't make sense, and I think the second half of the second sentence refers to the trustees rather than the pupils. In any case this seems to have been copied from the school's website, which has "In return for being educated to the age of thirteen at a "petty school" the boys had to wear the red Latymer cross on their sleeves. The trustees are under a duty to carry out the provisions of his will "unto the end of the world."". Tacyarg (talk) 20:00, 2 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

And none of that is encyclopedic content - sourced or unsourced, paraphrased or copy pasted. It's just a bunch of meaningless rhetoric. We publish facts, paraphrased from reliable secondary sources. Period. John from Idegon (talk) 20:30, 2 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Citation for the 1966 visit of the Queen Mother - https://www.londonsscreenarchives.org.uk/title/20550/ Stephen Way (talk) 08:20, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Citation for the opening of hte new buildings by the Duke and Duchess of York in 1928 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PchdFEif65A Stephen Way (talk) 08:25, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The original 1910 building is shown and named on this OS map from 1913 (just above the wording "EDMONTON UDC") - https://maps.nls.uk/view/101457005 - is that sufficient for a citation? Stephen Way (talk) 08:30, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Issue with list of notable former pupils

WP:ALUMNI states that in lists of notable former pupils ‘Individual alumni need a citation to [...] verify that they did indeed attend the school’. That being the case, the following entries in the list currently seem problematic (in the order in which they appear in the current article)…

Ankers, long source about ‘Women in Horror Films’, I’ve not read it all, but it seems unlikely to note the schools which individuals attended. If it does mention Latymer then a page reference will be needed.
Ashitey, dead link.
Coster - does mention Latymer, but the link is to imdb, a non-WP:RS source. [already removed by user Scope Creep]
Scott, seems to be a dead link.
Woods, no citation.
Kamall, source does not mention Latymer.
Meltzer, too long, didn’t read.
Sarkar, no citation.
Walder, link is to the Wikipedia article for the ‘Times Guide to the House of Commons’ (no mention of either Walder or Latymer in that article). If Walder is mentioned in the book referred to, and it confirms that he went to Latymer, a page reference will be needed (and also edition number?).
Abrams, dead link?
Horlock, dead link.
Jolly, entry is a blog (non-WP:RS) and does not seem to mention Latymer.
Haynes, dead link (and an apparently unusual source. If someone as well-known as England captain Johnny Haynes went to Latymer then surely this is well documented at places other than ‘North Middlesex Referees’? If it isn't then there is a problem with the claim.).
Warburton, Latymer apparently not mentioned in link (and, note, Warburton is no longer the manager of QPR).
Chatto, no citation.
Blake, no citation.
Holtam, no citation.
North, no citation.
Rolls, no citation.

There are also a couple of citations to the webpages of the individuals concerned, which (if my understanding is correct) would not count as WP:RS under normal circumstances, but might be okay in this sort of situation. Axad12 (talk) 16:26, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for looking at this and setting it out here. I have added refs for Holtam and North. Can't immediately find a reliable source for Rolls. Will go through the others as I have opportunity, and update here. Tacyarg (talk) 16:58, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Chatto and Blake done. Tacyarg (talk) 21:12, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Looked again at North. He actually attended Latymer Upper School, not this school. Have removed him. Tacyarg (talk) 22:14, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

New ref for Warburton, but haven't updated the description of him. Tacyarg (talk) 09:22, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

New ref for Haynes. Cannot find ref for Jolly. Tacyarg (talk) 17:50, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The only links I can find for Jolly are on the School's website and social - see https://www.facebook.com/latymerlinks/posts/we-regret-to-announce-the-death-of-brian-binding-on-26th-december-2020-brian-was/3586807344765858/?paipv=0&eav=AfZQlOlHwjSiIVbdPkRXh_VJx5lTLzNg4rOfqMyNB3PZV5GC9OIBisCq3vXodTRmmcY&_rdr three posts from the bottom (not sure of the access). She was at the school with my brother-in-law (I know, not a citation). Stephen Way (talk) 10:16, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately I'm pretty sure that social media never counts as WP:RS. So the issue will be whether the entry is to be removed from the list or (preferable, I think) to be retained and followed by a small {citation needed} tag. Better to opt for the latter, in which case other users may be able to add a citation at a later date. Axad12 (talk) 10:26, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Happy to leave it with "citation needed" Stephen Way (talk) 20:03, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Citation for Ashitey - https://kids.kiddle.co/Clare-Hope_Ashitey (I won't edit as a COI) Stephen Way (talk) 10:01, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Additional citation for Tim Pope - https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/news-photo/tim-pope-a-pupil-at-latymer-grammar-school-in-london-and-news-photo/1314622607 (Very definitely a COI as I'm in the photo). Stephen Way (talk) 10:09, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ash Sarkar citation - https://highprofiles.info/interview/ash-sarkar/ (bio at end of article) Stephen Way (talk) 22:14, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Abrams and Horlock done. Tacyarg (talk) 18:41, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Walder done. Tacyarg (talk) 18:49, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for taking this work forward Tacyarg, excellent work. Axad12 (talk) 09:19, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your thanks - task is much easier because you had been through them already. Sarkar now done (Stephen Way's link above - it's an interview, but no reason to doubt it; the article about her references a Times article which I can't access). Added a quote from the Meltzer ref - it's his memoirs, which have been published online, but look like they were also published traditionally, and again no reason to doubt. Mike Scott (broadcaster) - the ghostarchive link doesn't work but the original URL still works; however it says he was at Latymer Upper School rather than this one. The Guardian obit referenced in the article about him also says Latymer Upper School, so I will remove him, and update the article about him too. Coster, Ashitey and Ankers still to do. Tacyarg (talk) 09:45, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Should all be ok now, except for the two marked cn and the one marked failed verification. Have updated Category:People educated at The Latymer School too. Easy for confusion to arise between this school and Latymer Upper School. Tacyarg (talk) 12:23, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Issue with the start of this article

WP:WPSCHOOLS/AG#NPOV states that 'it is especially important [in articles about schools] to avoid vague praise'. As an example of this it gives "School X has consistently been ranked as one of the top public high schools in both the state and country."

The second sentence of this article currently reads "Latymer is one of the top state-funded schools in the country", which seems to be contrary to the relevant guideline.

As a general observation here, elsewhere in the article it states that the most recent Ofsted grade for this school (2022) was 'Good' rather than 'Outstanding'. Does that not bring into question the claim to be 'one of the top state-funded schools in the country'? For example, how many state-funded schools in the UK hold a better Ofsted grade than 'Good'?

In fairness, the article also states that in 2019 the school was rated 'as the top co-educational state school in London and fifth co-educational state secondary school in the UK'. That does appear to substantiate the claim (at least re: the situation in 2019), but does it agree with the more recent Ofsted grade? Even if the claim can be substantiated, however, the guideline seems clear in saying that the form of wording currently used in the article is inappropriate. Axad12 (talk) 17:04, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Upon re-reading I see that the article actually says 'According to league tables, Latymer is one of the top state-funded schools in the country'. That is certainly less vague, but would some citation be useful? Axad12 (talk) 17:27, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The "league table" results the article refers to is apparently Parent Power, published by the Sunday Times. I'd update that section to reflect the most current rankings (seems like a reasonable RS to me), but it's behind a paywall, unfortunately. BubbaJoe123456 (talk) 18:09, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that you were correct to remove the claim from the article.

The school’s own website (which presumably is up to date) states ‘Our results place us in the top 10% of co-educational schools nationally’.

I therefore wonder if the current ‘League Table Results’ section in WP article inadvertently gives a false impression through lack of an update (i.e. ‘In 2019, Latymer was listed […] as the top co-educational state school in London and fifth co-educational state secondary school in the UK’).

It wouldn’t be ideal to introduce a non-independent source. However, it might be helpful (for the sake of balance) if the quote from the school’s website was introduced to the ‘League Table Results’ section. E.g.: ‘As at 2024, the school’s own website stated that its results place it in the “top 10% of co-educational schools nationally”.[plus link]’. Any thoughts? Axad12 (talk) 06:03, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I updated the league table section with the most current data, was able to log into The Times. BubbaJoe123456 (talk) 16:04, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks - the school is actually the top co-ed state school in London - the six above it are smaller single-sex schools. Stephen Way (talk) 10:06, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Apologies for having earlier pointed out what seemed like an inconsistency, and thanks for resolving this point. Also, congratulations on the results.

I wonder, since we now have a verifiable and reliable source, to what extent would it now be fine to reinstate the claim recently removed from the lead section? Presumably the wording would need to be quite specific and accompanied by a source. BubbaJoe, what do you think? Axad12 (talk) 10:20, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]