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Archive 1Archive 2

distinguishing fact from fiction

Bob, Poetic licence can often be taken for granted. But in this particular case the wording in the introduction is misleading, in that many readers will have seen the film, but not read the book, and they will then tend to wrongly believe that the most famous scene in the film is true. The most famous scene is of course the bit at the end where Hilts tries to jump the barbed wire fence at the Swiss border on a motorbike. That bit was purely fictional, and indeed I can see now that this is fully acknowledged near the end of the article. Neverthless, I felt that some kind of clarification was needed in the introduction in order to avoid too much of a direct link between the word truth, and what first flashes into peoples' minds when they think of that film.

The film does broadly speaking keep to the theme of the book. That camp Stalag Luft III did exist. It was specifially made to hold allied airmen who had been troublesome to the German authorities. It was at Sagan in Eastern Germany, but nowadays in Zagan, Poland. There is still a museum and memorials at the site. Roger Bartlett does correspond in large degree to the real life character Roger Bushel who was essentially under Gestapo probation due to all his previous escape attempts. A tunnel was made. 76 did get out. Two did get to Sweden, and one did get to Spain. 50 of those recaptured were indeed murdered by the Gestapo. The dates are also pretty accurate.

In the book, there is an interesting chapter about the follow up investigation after the war which was largely successful in bringing the Gestapo perpetrators of the atrocity to justice.

I can see that you could potentially have trouble with this article from editors who have both read the book and seen the film, and who have got the details muddled. I haven't read it for nearly forty years, so I'll keep out of it because I may also get the finer details muddled. By the way, did you know that Paul Brickhill wrote an earlier seminal book with Conrad Norton called Escape to Danger? It does some very interesting pre-capture stories. David Tombe (talk) 01:57, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

I don't think the lede is misleading re the motorcycle scene since it doesn't bring it up or allude to it. I don't think that someone who is reading the lede is thinking about the motorcycle scene.
Did you notice the following excerpt from the 2nd paragraph of the Adaptation section, which is around the middle of the article?
"Some fictional, dramatic elements were added, such as Hilts's dash for the border by motorcycle. The scene was added at the request of McQueen, who did nearly all the stunt riding himself except for the jump,[1] and has become one of the most famous action scenes of 1960s cinema."
--Bob K31416 (talk) 04:44, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
There was a brave attempt a few months ago to deal with this issue, but it failed, largely because of three reasons; (a) failure to realise that per WP:FILM, the film itself may be cited as describing plotlines and characters in the film (b) a systematic refusal of editors to allow time for cogent research by interested editors, who have other things to do, and (c) the loss of confidence by those editors in pursuing a plausible path of research despite the fact that they might have to travel long distances to get to the libraries holding the books they need; not everything is on the net. It was shot down in a uninformed and premature blitz of bad faith. It could have eventually been a useful article and the editor who began that article has now lost interest in the topic. Great collaboration, guys! Well done! Rodhullandemu 02:15, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
Um, there is nothing to prevent those editors from working on such a section which adheres to the film style guidelines on adaptations and adding the material to the article once it is fully sourced and is not unsupported conjectures. Also, keep in mind that the film itself can act as a primary source only in the Plot section, not the other sections of the article. I do agree with Bob that the McQueen motorcycle scene is appropriately dealt with in the Production section. I note that David Tombe mentions a number of contrasts/comparisons between Brickhill's novel and the film, but none of them reference the necessary non-WP editor sources; these must be found to avoid synthesis. David Tombe, you may want to review this archived Discussion page for background. 173.72.136.143 (talk) 13:03, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
You may also want to check out the full discussion history of the article Rodhullandemu is referring to before proceeding further. 173.72.136.143 (talk) 13:50, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Non-reliable source

Please do not reintroduce material based on the website http://www.historyinfilm.com/escape/real10.htm. It does not meet the requirements of Verifiability: "Articles should be based on reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. Reliable sources are needed to substantiate material within articles, and citations are needed to direct the reader to those sources to give credit to the writers and publishers. This avoids plagiarism, copyright violations, and unverifiable claims being added to articles. Sources should directly support the material as it is presented in an article, and should be appropriate to the claims made: exceptional claims require high-quality sources."

The "directly support the material as it is presented" is also very applicable here: no Synthesis. 71.171.118.34 (talk) 13:02, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Hogan's Heroes

The article on the TV series Hogan's Heroes mentions the film Stalag 17 as an inspiration for this show; however, that movie was made back in the 1950's; and I thought I remembered that this more recent film was also a source for much of that show. I saw it recently; and the tricks for hiding the tunnels (not to mention the construction of the tunnels themselves), the bumbling Germans, the half-friendly guard that recalled Sgt. Schultz, and the often light-hearted tenor of the movie looked like they were taken directly into the TV series. Does anyone else remember this, or think there is something to it? Shocking Blue (talk) 15:01, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Hilts as a fictional character

I know there is a lot of discussion on here about fact & fiction, and the insertion of the motor-bike jump is mentioned there, but at no point that I can see (apologies if I missed it) is the fact that the character Hilts is a fabrication ever mentioned. The “Cooler King” was a British officer, Squadron Leader Eric Foster, who was involved with the construction of the tunnels, but didn’t participate in the escape. He didn’t ride motor-bikes, but did manage to get sent back to Britain by feigning insanity. There he was committed to an asylum, and had to convince the authorities that he was sane, which led to him in later life often joking that “I can prove I’m not mad - can you?” He died in the bath, aged 95. Jock123 (talk) 16:25, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Just after the opening credits of the film there is a written statement that includes the comment, "...the characters are composites of real men...". So it's not just the Hilts character that is a composite. I just added the following to the article, "The characters in the film are composites of real men." Thanks. --Bob K31416 (talk) 18:26, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Fate of characters

The section about the fate of the characters is somewhat confusing as it contradicts the plot summary section. For example, Jud Taylor's character, Goff, throws Hilts the latter's baseball glove toward the end of the film but according to the character list, Goff's fate was that he was recaptured and shot. The plot summary also states that only three managed to successfully escape but the character of Nimmo is listed as having escaped as well. Someone needs to go and double-check the fates for some of the minor characters. For the record, neither Goff nor Sorren ("Security") make it through the tunnel; when the whistle is blown they are at the tunnel exit but retreat back to the tunnel entrance, so their fate should be that they failed to escape. David French (talk) 03:17, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

factual error

When Seldgwick is sitting in the "café" near the river close to german officers he is reading an issue of the newspaper "Liberation". It is impossible for "Liberation" was a french resistance clandestine newspaper and to read it publicly was the best mean to go to jail or directly in a camp. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.51.59.107 (talk) 13:14, 27 April 2011 (UTC)


Cast list vs. table

I boldly removed the cast table and replaced it with a straight cast list. In general, tables are discouraged because they take up more space and simply add to the character count. In this case, the added information --- the fates of the characters and the historical people upon whom the characters are supposedly based --- is better dealt with in the main article text. In the case of the character's fates, that should be in the plot summary. The more complex matter of who the characters are based on should be dealt with the production section, most likely in the subsection on the development of the film. I would like to hear what other editors think about this. Thanks. ---The Old JacobiteThe '45 18:43, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

Hollywood version of events

While the film used actual prisoners of war as technical advisors, the film is very much a Hollywood version of events and glosses over many things especially the grittiness of what actually took place.

One thing I strongly question about the film is the attempt, early in the film, by British prisoners (actually Australian and Polish) to try to get out of the camp by pretending to be Russian prisoners. Considering how much more harshly the Germans treated Russian prisoners, including being much more willing to shoot them and starve them to death, it seems like a rather foolish move (almost like jumping from the frying pan to the fire). I wonder if this ever actually took place and wasn't just something the script writers added?

Attempts have been made to compare the television series Hogan's Heroes to this movie. Hogan's Heroes really doesn't have any more in common with this movie than most of the movies (and books) about Allied prisoners trying to escape a German prison-of-war camp. Hogan's Heroes involves prisoners, not trying to escape, but carrying out acts of espionage and sabotage involving spies, defectors, escaped prisoners from other camps, resistance groups, German secret weapons and beautiful women. Characterization of the Germans is also completely different especially the camp commandant as well as the interaction between the prisoners and guards. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tim Gruber (talk • contribs) 15:01, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

The Talk Pages are not a Forum. They are only for the discussion of Reliable Sources for the improvement of the article. Please don't do this again. You've been warned already about adding Original Research to articles (which your diatribe above is).HammerFilmFan (talk) 04:59, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

The link from the (presumably German) actor Hans Reiser is to the wrong Hans Reiser - an American computer programmer who is also a convicted murderer. He was born in 1963, which is the year the film was made. I don't know how to delete the link, or I would do it myself.92.111.250.34 (talk) 16:12, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

Good catch. I've corrected the link to point to Hans Reiser (actor).
If you'd like to make changes like this on your own, the page Help:Link has useful information on how to get started. You may also want to visit the Teahouse for assistance with other aspects of editing. Welcome to Wikipedia. Nick Number (talk) 16:31, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

Harrison Ford

I've deleted the reference to Harrison Ford being in this film. There is no evidence for this. It's not at IMDB nor has Harrison Ford ever mentioned this. He was in college when this was made and did not move to California until 1964. So unless you have documented evidence of this, please leave it out of the article. Iwalters (talk)—Preceding undated comment added 13:57, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

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Country?

I noticed a recent edit that says this is an American film (before that, it said British) but looking at the film's page at the American Film Institute's website there is indication it was a joint American-German film. Does anyone know for sure? IMDB says USA, while TCM says Germany, USA. Yojimbo1941 (talk) 13:42, 13 January 2016 (UTC)

It's an American film, made by an American production company in Germany, with the facilities of a German studio. Khamba Tendal (talk) 18:10, 13 October 2016 (UTC)

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Cast listing in the closing credits does not follow the same billing order as in the opening credits

It may be noted that, in the film's opening credits, 27 cast members are listed. Below is a reproduction of the form in which the cast is indicated:

The on-screen closing credits, however, list names of only the first 14 cast members, in reverse order from that of the opening credits. Each of the 14 cast members, starting with Robert Graf and ending with Steve McQueen, is depicted in a very brief film clip showing the actor in close-up or medium shot, with the actor's name and the name of the character he played printed at the bottom of the screen. The character names of the remaining 13 cast members are not shown on-screen. Below is a reproduction of the form in which the cast is depicted in the closing credits:

  • ROBERT GRAF as Werner "The Ferret"
  • NIGEL STOCK as Cavendish "The Surveyor"
  • ANGUS LENNIE as Ives "The Mole"
  • JOHN LEYTON as Willie "Tunnel King"
  • GORDON JACKSON as MacDonald "Intelligence"
  • DAVID McCALLUM as Ashley - Pitt "Dispersal"
  • HANNES MESSEMER as Von Luger "The Kommandant"
  • JAMES COBURN as Sedgwick "Manufacturer"
  • DONALD PLEASENCE as Blythe "The Forger"
  • CHARLES BRONSON as Danny "Tunnel King"
  • JAMES DONALD as Ramsey "The SBO"
  • RICHARD ATTENBOROUGH as Bartlett "Big X"
  • JAMES GARNER as Hendley "The Scrounger"
  • STEVE McQUEEN as HILTS "The Cooler King"

                                                                            Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 01:15, 8 February 2019 (UTC)

im surprised that in popular culture the reference to the film in metal gear solid 3 has not been added, seeing as metal gear is... pretty damn popular. much more than an english band nobody outside england knows, while mgs3 is popular worldwide can someone who knows how to write add this?

for the uncultured, heres a link with the reference: https://youtube/yq20lr1As3w?t=1147 KRISHANKO (talk) 12:32, 15 February 2019 (UTC)

Movie’s setting

The actual Great Escape took place in March 1944. So, let’s put that as the date in the film, that must mean that before the 4th of July scene, Hlitts’ line “Seventeen days, the seventh of July”, must mean that the scene takes place on 20 June 1943. The real prison was established in March 1942, and Bushell arrived in October. Von Luger says, “past four years” indicating the film takes place in 1942, and despite what some sources say, original pre-publicity packets said that the film starts in 42. 2.97.27.181 (talk) 11:01, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

No, we don't know the film is supposed to be the same date. You'll need references and films are not historically accurate. At this point everything you said above is WP:Original research. Canterbury Tail talk 14:58, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

John Dortch Lewis debate?

The Casting section states "Steve McQueen, in a role based on at least two pilots, David M. Jones and John Dortch Lewis (but see debate)". I don't see any debate covered in the article body, so it must be referring to the footnote. That link just points to a forum post on H-Net in which someone asks for verification of Lewis's involvement. Unless I'm missing something, there's only one other post in that thread, and it just consists of referrals to books on the subject of the escape. This doesn't seem to meet the criteria of a reliable source and I'd be inclined to remove both the footnote and the "(but see debate)". Nick Number (talk) 18:11, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

In the absence of any comments, I've removed the unsupported information. Nick Number (talk) 22:06, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

It's back in there now, and it's false. The McQueen character was simply invented. American journalists have retrospectively tried to identify the character with real people, but he was just made up, to provide a role for Steve McQueen, for box-office reasons. No American took part in the Great Escape, as far as I know. Khamba Tendal (talk) 18:01, 13 October 2016 (UTC)

Sorry, but no. At least one and possibly two of the film characters were based on real people, Hilts and Hendley - never mind that Jones at least has his own wikipedia page clearly establishing presence at Sagan and activity in the Great Escape, and Dortch's bona fides being established in public documents such as his NY Times obituary.
Worse, the introduction to the article asserts: "The film was based on the real events but depicts a heavily fictionalised version of the escape with numerous compromises for its commercial appeal, such as including Americans among the escapees (none of whom were actually American). The characters are based on real men, and in some cases are composites of several men. However, many details of the actual escape attempt were changed for the film, and the role of American personnel in both the planning and the escape was largely fabricated."
That too is nonsense. There was at least one Eagle squadron pilot, Charles Cook, in the camp at the time who could have served as the basis of the Hendley character; and as detailed in Brickhill's book, there was at least one American escapee heavily involved in both the planning and diversions for the Great Escape - Johnny Dodge, "The Artful Dodger" - and a very strong candidate as the real-life individual forming the basis for McQueen's character, Hilts.
Just how one can be unaware of this individual is beyond me, for he was quite (in)famous. Not only was Dodge the grandson of a colourful US Civil War general, but related by marriage to Churchill, which may be why he was not one of 'the fifty' shot 'while escaping'. Furthermore, besides his US citizenship, he was also a naturalised British subject. Initially commissioned in the Royal Navy, while fighting in Gallipoli Dodge became close with others of the military pantheon, including Freyberg and Rupert Brooke, so transferred to the British Army, becoming a much-decorated and distinguished soldier. After a series of escapes in WWII he arranged for his papers to be forged showing him to be an RAF officer, one of many exploits earning him the "Artful Dodger' moniker; he maintained that masquerade for the rest of the war, right up to the celebrated moment when the Germans pulled him from Sachsenhausen concentration camp to negotiate surrender of the Reich! Most of this is easily accessible online at the Dodge family website, or from Brickhill's book! On which the film was based, so without question the production crew was aware of him. 115.188.60.30 (talk) 21:11, 13 January 2019 (UTC)
John Dodge was American-born, but he was British and serving in the British forces. It was Harry Day who arranged for the Germans to accredit Dodge to the RAF when he was actually Army, and the Luftwaffe went along with this because Dodge had been captured by Luftwaffe troops so they were prepared to keep him in the Luftwaffe PoW system. And Dodge was quite considerably older than the Steve McQueen character Hilts, being nearly 50 by the time of the Great Escape. He was a prospective Conservative Party Parliamentary candidate, a role in which it is hard to picture McQueen somehow. So Hilts was hardly based on Johnnie Dodge. The escape tunnel ran from the British sector of the camp, so it would have been difficult, even impractical, for the USAAF men to take part. The three RAF Eagle Squadrons, their Spitfires and their pilots, including Charles Cook, were transferred to the USAAF to become the 4th Fighter Group on 29 September 1942, the very day that Cook (and indeed all 12 of the 133rd Squadron) were shot down or force-landed in northern France on an escort mission that turned disastrous due to unpredicted winds -- they failed to RV with the bombers, then descended to try and land near what they thought was Southampton but was actually the Cherbourg area. Bill Edwards from Arizona, a squadron friend of Cook's who missed that mission because he was in London formalising his transfer to the USAAF, recalled that Cook ended up in Stalag Luft III but that 'there were no Americans on that escape.' https://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ww2peopleswar/stories/90/a7820390.shtml Presumably Cook was in the US section of the camp, so couldn't realistically be included in the plan. Or he may not have wanted to escape; most PoWs didn't. David Jones apparently took part in the digging, but was not one of the escapers. Khamba Tendal (talk) 13:49, 15 September 2020 (UTC)
  1. ^ Davis, Rob. "The 1963 film of the Great Escape". History of Film. Retrieved 2009-05-20.
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