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Talk:The Falcon and the Winter Soldier/Archive 2

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Archive 1Archive 2

Episode articles

I expect we will be making episode articles for the series as we did for WandaVision, so I have started a draft for the first episode at Draft:Episode 1 (The Falcon and the Winter Soldier). It can be moved when we get the actual title. Currently there is not enough information for the article to be moved to the mainspace, but we can develop it as a draft until it is ready. - adamstom97 (talk) 05:45, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

Agreed, thanks Adam. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 16:18, 14 March 2021 (UTC)
So I just want to add, a day before release, I don't think we are in any spot to say an article you be created, at least right upon release. Looking at the draft as it stands, we have one /Film source about what Skogland did with some filming, which isn't nearly enough to justify an article right now. Best to wait and continue developing it in the draft space. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 18:26, 18 March 2021 (UTC)

Adamstom.97 You've done some expansion of the draft, but how are you feeling towards it becoming an article? I'm personally feeling, unlike WandaVision, the six episodes and way its constructed is lending it to where a lot of what's being said by the creatives applies to the entire series, rather than one individual episode. But even comments for singular moments I can see being worked into the series page. I just want to know how you (and others) are feeling because I don't want to seem like I'm talking into a void with my thoughts. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 22:45, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

I have a few sources lined up with some good episode-specific details to add if others don't get to them first, but I don't think we are going to be getting to the same level as WandaVision anytime soon. I think we can re-assess once we have filled out those details and then done the reception section, as there a plenty of reviews out there for the first episode that we can use. - adamstom97 (talk) 22:48, 19 March 2021 (UTC)
Ok, cool. After seeing the other sourcing you have, and obviously all the reviews, I think this episode we can make an article. The rest of the series I'm not as optimistic about, at least today knowing the type of info we might be getting. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 22:53, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

Series releasing items - Cast, episode articles, reviews

So I wanted to go over a few things with the series premiere approaching.

Cast
First, the cast list. I think we can follow what was done at WandaVision, assuming it has credits similar to that or MCU films. If so, anyone in the "main (on-end) billing" will be bulletted, followed in prose by the guest stars. For recurring, since we are dealing with 6 total episodes, 3 episodes or more feels right for recurring to me. I think after we see how the credits for the series will operate, we create an FAQ like was done at WandaVision.
Episode articles
Adamstom.97 started a discussion about this above, but just adding a bit more, upon an episode's release, it appears that it will be more necessary to start in the draftspace because we have not gotten the same level of production info that we had with WandaVision before hand. Also the press is either in the midst of talking to the cast/creatives, or that's happening after the first episode releases (I've seen conflicting info on this), so that will put us further behind the ball of prepping any type of episodes. And that's also going to lead into the next section on reviews.
Reviews
As I've been seeing, it appears the press will only be receiving the first episode for review beforehand. That means, much of the reviews will be fully associated with the first episode and it might be hard to get a good "Reception" section here. Unlike WandaVision where reviewers had 3 episodes to talk about and could give some series thoughts, that seems harder in this case. We should just be mindful of what actually gets put here with reviews.

Thanks all. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 16:25, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

Cast breakdown

Breakdown of each episode's main on-end billing, plus cast list. Actors in bold indicate the first appearance of the character, with the episodes they appear in after.

- Favre1fan93 (talk) 21:02, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

Episode posters

According to this article by Comicbook.com states that the sixth poster, currently used in the fifth episode, is the final poster that will be released. It seems we've been putting them in the wrong articles. This is the first poster, which isn't in any of the episode articles and should be in the first one, with the one currently there moved to the second episode and so on. —El Millo (talk) 01:56, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

So the article only says "Final" in its title heading, and the actual tweet/social media posts does not indicate as such. Per the initial discussion at Talk:Power Broker (The Falcon and the Winter Soldier)#Potential poster, it was noted how the initial poster released appeared to be for the series, and then the second one right after was for the first episode. So the number poster in the series should be one off from the episode number. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 18:48, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
Even if this is indeed the final poster? Because none of them is clearly for any particular episode, and if only six are released, it stands to reason to use each of them in one episode article, in order. —El Millo (talk) 19:09, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
But we can't assume it is the final one, until probably a week's time if we don't any more. They do generally equate to the episode released. The one that is on "Power Broker" right now does for sure since it shows Madripoor, so if that's the anchor, you can go back two for the first two, and continue on from that for the next two posters. I guess it's just very premature to say this is the final poster at this time. We should reevaluate in a week. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 20:26, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
Marvel didn't say it was the "final" - that's editorial commentary by Comicbook.com. They don't have a special source for the info besides what marvel posts for everyone to see through their social media articles. Also, Marvel usually mentions the specific episode it applies to. For example, in last week's poster, their tweets/ig posts specifically mentioned "The Whole World is Watching". So, I would follow what Marvel says, not Comicbook.com.... unless they don't post a new one next week then we can bring back the discussion. — Starforce13 20:32, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

According to Comic Book Resources: Marvel Studios has posted a different poster over the course of six weeks, with each one corresponding to a different episode in the series.[1] Favre1fan93, having added this source and that the six posters corresponded to each episode to each episode's Marketing section (diff as example), do you agree that we should move down each poster to the following episode and add the first poster to the first episode? —El Millo (talk) 19:18, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

No I don't. I still believe each lines up as they currently are. The intent of adding was that there was correlation between the posters and the episodes, which wasn't previously there. If the way I worded it implies the first is for an episode too (which I fully believe does not), then I'll adjust the wording. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 20:53, 22 April 2021 (UTC)
It says that each of the posters released corresponds with an episode. If there's a correlation between posters and episodes, then each poster belongs to one episode, meaning there's no episode without a poster and no poster without an episode. —El Millo (talk) 21:01, 22 April 2021 (UTC)
The CBR source also said this poster was for next week's episode, when past tweets from Marvel have indicated the posters are released for the episodes that just came out. I still think we just have to wait until early next week and see if a final poster comes out. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 21:12, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

Facu-el Millo Just wanted to say I haven't forgotten about this. Is it okay to wait until Friday before seeing if we have to make adjustments and should discuss further? - Favre1fan93 (talk) 22:28, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

Sure, Friday seems fine as a whole week will have passed since the last episode. —El Millo (talk) 23:10, 27 April 2021 (UTC)
Let's wait until Friday, but if they don't release one specifically for the art series, I still think we should consider using the one they released yesterday with Sam Wilson as Captain America. Even from their description, it sounds like it was intended for the finale here and so we wouldn't be off. I think doing this instead of retroactively changing the posters is the better approach because most of the posters specifically reflect on what happened in the episode they were released after. Like how the previous one has Sam with a blood wings, referencing the fight with Walker; and how the Power Broker one shows Madripoor. Likewise, the one posted today (although not credited as part of the series) reflects the final episode - Wilson as Captain America. — Starforce13 23:20, 27 April 2021 (UTC)
I agree with Starforce13. The poster for each episode article currently reflects the events of the episode. That status quo should probably be retained, and the 'Sam as Captain America' image is there for potential inclusion, although it would need a caption that differs from the others (e.g. 'promotional image for the episode of Anthony Mackie as Sam Wilson / Captain America'. IronManCap (talk) 23:26, 27 April 2021 (UTC)
We should avoid using character posters on an episode page in my opinion, which the Sam as Cap one is. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 23:57, 27 April 2021 (UTC)
The posters don't reflect any episode in particular, and if you see the one we're currently using for "The Star-Spangled Man". Madripoor is on the back, Sharon Carter appears and Zemo appears with his mask on. Neither that place nor those characters appear in the episode, with Zemo only being mentioned at the very end. So, either both this poster and the one currently at "Power Broker" are posters for the third episode, or neither of them is. I see all of these posters as generally depicting the series as a whole, but there's six of them, which according to many reliable sources is in correspondence with the number of episodes, so we can use one on each episode article. —El Millo (talk) 01:03, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
Since we haven't got any new poster now, I think it is fair to say that it is a six poster series for the six episodes. We had assumed they were applying the posters backwards since the tweets mentioned the episode that was already streaming, but now it seems likely that each was promoting the episode for the next week. We have the CBR source to support that so I think it makes to go ahead and adjust the poster for each episode. - adamstom97 (talk) 10:09, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
I agree, seems clear we should change them now. IronManCap (talk) 12:14, 1 May 2021 (UTC)

I'd actually think we should remove the posters completely now if the consensus is they should change. The reasoning is, looking at what is currently at "Truth" now, features a poster of Sam in his Falcon costume. If that moves to "One World, One People", the Falcon costume doesn't appear at all in that episode which makes it a poor representation of the episode in my opinion. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 18:17, 1 May 2021 (UTC)

If consensus is that each of the six posters applies to each of the six episodes, which I think we have a strong argument for, then our opinion on how relevant each poster is to the episode shouldn't matter. To be honest, most of the posters are not good representations of the episodes in the current order or in the proposed new order, but Marvel chose to release them in that order and we can't change that. - adamstom97 (talk) 20:24, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
Right, but my point being then if we want to adjust (which appears so), just because we have the posters, doesn't mean we have to use them. I'd argue the current arrangement is closer to representing the episodes, than what the new order will be, so at that point, my stance would be just scrap the posters in article all together, and maybe just put the art series info at the series page. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 21:18, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
My point is that in either arrangement the content of the posters mostly do not represent the episodes themselves, so my position on how relevant they each are hasn't really changed. We don't have to use them just because they are there, but it is good to have media in the article if there is any relevant stuff available, and since Marvel has given us six posters for the six episodes it seems like too good of an opportunity to just ignore. - adamstom97 (talk) 23:34, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
I agree. —El Millo (talk) 23:35, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
If the alternative is to remove them completely, I'm leaning towards adjusting them. Technically they're still episode posters because they're 6 weekly posters representing the 6 weekly episodes. — Starforce13 00:16, 2 May 2021 (UTC)
If we adjust, then the prose in each article should be reworked so it's more generalized ie "This is the weekly Art series poster released" versus "This is the poster for this episode" since I believe we all agree they don't necessarily correlate to the content of the episodes. Also, I have file mover rights and can adjust the file names so we can properly upload the first poster at the correct location. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 16:55, 2 May 2021 (UTC)
Agreed. Nothing tying episode and poster apart from the amount and order of them. —El Millo (talk) 22:23, 2 May 2021 (UTC)
We should mention that each one is the poster released before the episode's debut, and we can use "corresponding" with the CBR source. - adamstom97 (talk) 03:14, 3 May 2021 (UTC)
Agreed. Currently wording in the Marketing section reads something like, Marvel announced a series of posters created by various artists that corresponded to each episode, with the poster for "[this episode]" revealed on [date].... We could change that to something like Marvel announced a series of posters created by various artists that were released before each episode, with the poster corresponding to "[this episode]" revealed on [date]... — Starforce13 04:40, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

I've been giving this a bit more thought, and since we all seem to agree that the posters don't correlate directly to the episodes, I'm once again leaning towards outright removing the posters from the episode articles. The poster, or any image, should be representative of the episode in question, and since these posters aren't, I don't see how our justification of it being "six posters for six episodes" would work, especially considering WP:NFCC#8. That states: Non-free content is used only if its presence would significantly increase readers' understanding of the article topic, and its omission would be detrimental to that understanding. No reader is going to be disserviced by not having these posters at the episode articles. And this in turn would mean removing the info in the marketing section, which could translate over to the main article. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 20:39, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

I still see value in having them, since Marvel released them as promotional material ahead of each episode. And while they may not appear to correlate to each episode in our opinions, they were released in a specific order that corresponded to each upcoming episode, which we have primary and secondary sources to support. Our opinions of the posters' content definitely shouldn't carry too much weight here since we wouldn't allow that to sway our judgement of a film poster either (we have to go with whatever the studio decides to release). Think about it like this: we don't need infobox images for articles, but we would like to use them if there are appropriate ones available; Marvel released a series of promotional posters, with one released ahead of each of the series' six episodes, and we have reliable sources that we can use to support the correlation; we are a bit reluctant because the artwork does not directly line up with the episodes that the posters are associated to, but we do not know the full circumstances leading to the creation of each poster so we shouldn't really speculate on those differences. I personally am happy with that logic. Regardless, I think we should mention the posters at the main article either way. - adamstom97 (talk) 04:20, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

@Facu-el Millo, Adamstom.97, IronManCap, and Starforce13: So I've gone ahead with moving the files as discussed, so what we had went forward one episode and I uploaded the first released poster for "New World Order". I also adjusted the wording in each marketing section, and would appreciate someone looking it over and also ensuring I put the right dates, artists, and sources on each page. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 22:33, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

All the changes look right to me. Thanks for sorting all that out Favre1fan93! - adamstom97 (talk) 22:01, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ https://www.cbr.com/falcon-winter-soldier-season-finale-poster/

Semi-protected edit request on 24 May 2021

Saatwik Jain (talk) 12:50, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Pupsterlove02 talk • contribs 13:22, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

Civil War theme

@Adamstom.97: okay, I get it now, the specific track is named "Civil War". The problem now is that it has to be in quotes if it's the title of a song, and his more "operatic" "Civil War" theme looks a bit weird to me. If it doesn't look weird or awkward to you, we'll just do it that way, but I think we could find a bit to rephrase it a bit. Perhaps his more "operatic" theme (titled/named/called) "Civil War" could work better. Thoughts? —El Millo (talk) 04:21, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

There is a cue on the film's soundtrack called "Civil War", but I don't think we are necessarily talking about that. If we look through the rest of the paragraph there are other similar examples ("Falcon motif", "Winter Soldier theme", etc.) which are not necessarily specific cues but they are musical themes in those scores. I can see where some confusion may have come in because we are not talking about a specific character theme and the film is also called Civil War, but what we are talking about is a separate thing which is a musical theme about the idea of characters fighting the "civil war". It returns when there is another "civil war" between Walker, Sam, and Bucky in this series, which is what the sentence is talking about. Perhaps it is more correct to not have it capitalised, so it would be Jackman used an off-key version of his Captain America theme to represent John Walker, before transitioning to his more "operatic" civil war theme once Walker turns on the titular heroes since that was reminiscent of the fight between Captain America and Iron Man in Civil War. Does that clear up the confusion? - adamstom97 (talk) 04:30, 5 June 2021 (UTC)
I think it would be better to call it a leitmotif (or motif for short) instead of a theme to avoid any tipe of confusion with the film and the track. —El Millo (talk) 04:48, 5 June 2021 (UTC)
But it isn't a leitmotif, it's a theme, and I'm not sure how that would improve understanding of the sentence anyway. - adamstom97 (talk) 04:51, 5 June 2021 (UTC)
Okay, regardless of whether it is a leitmotif or not (by its definition I think it is), the source calls it Civil War theme, so we'll stick with that. Putting it in lowercase does help with the possible confusion with the title of the track and the film itself, so I think it's the better option. —El Millo (talk) 05:26, 5 June 2021 (UTC)
I have made the change to lowercase, hopefully that clears things up. - adamstom97 (talk) 07:11, 5 June 2021 (UTC)
I think Civil War needs to be capitalized, so should it be his more "operatic" theme from Civil War? - Favre1fan93 (talk) 16:41, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

Would it be wrong to call it the "main theme" from Civil War, so it's more clear which one it is? I don't think it would be too much of a jump for us to interpret the quote "Civil War theme" as "main theme from Civil War". —El Millo (talk) 17:03, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

I don't think that would be a stretch. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 20:16, 6 June 2021 (UTC)
I just don't think that is completely accurate since CW is a Captain America movie and it has a Captain America theme that plays over the main end credits, so just saying the main theme from CW doesn't necessarily get the correct idea across. The point is that he wrote a theme for the idea of a "superhero civil war" for the film that he brought back for a similar situation in the show. Why do you think civil war needs to be capitalised in this instance Favre? - adamstom97 (talk) 20:49, 6 June 2021 (UTC)
Can you pointed to the quoted material you are referring to? I looked at all instances of "operatic" and I wasn't clear what you were trying to pull from. That might help me. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 21:25, 6 June 2021 (UTC)
Sure. So the interviewer says you used the same theme for John Walker's hero moment that you did for when Bucky was going after Tony Stark at the end of Civil War, which is talking about the "civil war theme" from that film that Jackman mentions elsewhere in this article. He gives a long answer to the question, but in it he says: I think it's a sort of heightened operatic clash. You get exciting action and action that's, for want of a better word, visually gratifying and not at a climactic character moment. And then you get a sort of Clash of the Titans type action, which becomes almost operatic. ... at the end of Civil War, by the time you get Cap and Bucky versus Iron Man, it's like Zeus versus Poseidon. At that point, it's like, "You killed my family." It's not about the punches. It's about the Titanic clash of superheroes, which at that point is like gods versus gods. That's why it was a more operatic style instead of being a pounding action cue. The end of Civil War started becoming very Wagnerian and operatic to highlight the very thing I'm describing. And it's a similar beat, by the time you get that far into the Falcon and Winter Soldier show, you've earned the right for that clash to have echoes of the "[unstoppable force meets and immoveable object]" expression. So that is what I am using to support the fact that he brings his "operatic" theme from Civil War that represents the "civil war" idea for Cap and Iron Man and applies it to Walker, Sam, and Bucky in the show. - adamstom97 (talk) 21:31, 6 June 2021 (UTC)
Hmm ok. Maybe we rework the sentence in the article to the following: before transitioning to his more "operatic" theme used during the fight between Captain America and Iron Man in Civil War once Walker turns on the titular heroes.? - Favre1fan93 (talk) 21:42, 6 June 2021 (UTC)
Yeah, I am seeing now that this will be a better approach. I have updated the wording, feel free to c/e further if needed. Hopefully that avoids the confusion for you as well Facu-el Millo. - adamstom97 (talk) 21:48, 6 June 2021 (UTC)
Yes, it avoids confusion and repetition of the "Civil War" term. —El Millo (talk) 21:50, 6 June 2021 (UTC)
Looks good. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 22:14, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

"Featuring" vs "Based on" in the opening sentence

There's a discussion involving this and many other MCU film articles at Talk:Loki (TV series)#"Featuring" vs "Based on" in the opening sentence that may be of interest of watchers of this page. —El Millo (talk) 03:49, 12 June 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 27 June 2021

Make Anthony Make first as the cast member Its called the Falcon and Winter Soldier. Give the respect due. Hiphophoe1968 (talk) 17:04, 27 June 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: This order is based on the end credits of the first episode, which list Sebastian Stan first before Anthony Mackie. InfiniteNexus (talk) 17:09, 27 June 2021 (UTC)

Episodes Table

The Episodes table has no background colour, so currently on devices running a Dark theme, the table text is unreadable. Esspeecy (talk) 15:45, 27 June 2021 (UTC)

I've just enabled Dark mode to test this out and to me the text is readable (the same contrast as the text on this talk page). Could you add a screenshot and say what skin you are using? Gonnym (talk) 16:00, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
I believe this only happens when using the Wikipedia mobile app. InfiniteNexus (talk) 17:10, 27 June 2021 (UTC)

Analysis sources

Listing sources here that could be useful for an analysis section: [1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8] IronManCap (talk) 15:18, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

👍, good work. — ChannelSpider (talk) 22:21, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
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