Talk:The Conspirators (novel)

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Requested move 24 February 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: move the opera page, and not move the novel page, per the discussion below. Please alter hatnotes and redirects, or create a disambiguation page, as necessary. Dekimasuよ! 05:29, 14 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The Conspirators (novel) → Le chevalier d'Harmental
Le chevalier d'Harmental → Le chevalier d'Harmental (opera) –have moved opera, main article should be better known source novel, which is better known in english by original French title NPalgan2 (talk) 19:23, 24 February 2018 (UTC)--Relisting. —usernamekiran(talk) 05:52, 4 March 2018 (UTC)--Relisting. —usernamekiran(talk) 11:42, 11 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This is a contested technical request (permalink). –Ammarpad (talk) 20:20, 24 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Ammarpad, "Le Chevalier d'Harmental" (the original French title) is the way the novel is usually discussed in English language scholarship . e.g. see here https://books.google.com/books?id=O0j2MOu_ERwC&pg=PT115 "The Conspirators is just a made up title by the English language translators in the 19th century (worth mentioning in the article, not worth making it the title of this article). So the question is, should the opera or the original novel be the main article? The novel and Dumas are much better known than the opera and Messager (the opera in fact doesn't seem to have been performed since 1897), so the novel should be the head article. NPalgan2 (talk) 20:39, 24 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Neutral on book being in French or English but either way move the opera article back to (opera) 20:09, 24 @Ammarpad: on what basis do you say "No need of disambiguation" for opera? "Le Chevalier d'Harmental" + is test quite clearly shows that (opera) is needed. In ictu oculi (talk) 09:40, 25 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The page was moved to give way for moving this page after which the page was blanked and tagged for deletion. If there's consensus to move the novel then that article will need disambiguation since the title will be usurped. –Ammarpad (talk) 10:21, 25 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I don't understand. I'm proposing that "Le Chevalier d'Harmental" be the article on the novel and that "Le Chevalier d'Harmental (opera)" be about the opera. There's no need for a disambiguation page, just a "for the opera, see" at the top of the article on the novel. NPalgan2 (talk) 10:28, 25 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, NPalgan2 Nobody is saying there should be "disambiguation page". We're talking of "disambiguated title". –Ammarpad (talk) 11:06, 25 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Ammarpad: very sorry, but with respect what you're saying there is not in accord with Wikipedia:Disambiguation. We do not allocate a WP:PRIMARYTOPIC to an article simply because it can be done. Look at Hurricane for example which is a WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT to Tropical cyclone. We do not move Hurricane (plane) over Hurricane simply because it can be done. Please see "Le Chevalier d'Harmental" + is test above : this is very clear from Google Books that the opera is not WP:PT for the Dumas book and therefore @NPalgan2: is correct whether the move goes ahead or not that Le chevalier d'Harmental should be WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT to The Conspirators (novel), or vice-versa if the move goes ahead. And either way a hat note on the book article to the opera article is required. In ictu oculi (talk) 13:17, 25 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't move it back because it can be done (as you're assuming), I moved it because it is inappropriate to move page that has been there for over 2 years and tag the redirect for deletion. If there's consensus on usurping the name for the book, then so be it. Whether the other title should've opera or not, let this discussion reach conclusion, no need for rush. –Ammarpad (talk) 13:54, 25 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm, okay, reworded the Neutral... back to opera comment'. Add Support Le chevalier d'Harmental directing to The Conspirators (novel) or vice versa. Cheers. In ictu oculi (talk) 15:22, 25 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I have updated the request, it will no be clear to participants. –Ammarpad (talk) 14:01, 25 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose The Conspirators (novel) → Le chevalier d'Harmental, although I would support The Conspirators (novel) → The Chevalier d'Harmental, since all English-language editions of the Dumas novel use either The Conspirators or The Chevalier d'Harmental, or both, but not the form with the French orthography, which is used for French-language editions. Support Le chevalier d'Harmental → Le chevalier d'Harmental (opera) because of its insufficient notability as a WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 16:34, 4 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.