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Future, based on recent China RM

Now that the PRC article occupies the title of "China", I think we need to consider how it affects this page as well and/or the Taiwan article.--Tærkast (Discuss) 18:53, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

I don't think it changes much with regards to this page or Taiwan. It did come up quite a bit during the RM for the PRC article and China that the ROC and Taiwan articles ought to be merged, but that was not dealt with there, as it is a separate issue. There was considerable support for the idea but I caution anyone who wishes to initiate such a merge proposal here to evaluate the likelihood of gaining consensus before acting, last time it was proposed it was soundly defeated. These articles have issues which are not identical to the PRC and China although there are strong parrallels with regards to WP:COMMONNAME. The most important difference is that Taiwan is an island with an obvious geographical boundary. The ROC is a political entity with a territory which is not the same as the boundaries of that island. Personally, I think COMMONNAME is a little more important than the technical distinction I just described, but the issue is not as uncomplicated as some have made it out to be. COMMONNAME is important in this case because the "Republic of China" is an much much less familiar term than the People's Republic of China. Readers not already familiar with the subject are extremely unlikely to know to search for "Republic of China" instead of "Taiwan". WP:AT policy states clearly that we use the common name for things as used in English and the recent PRC move demonstrates that we still think that's important, but please let's not think of that as binding precedent. We should discuss WP policy and guidelines,the ROC and Taiwan, and the needs of readers looking for general information on those topics and not simply try to extend the RM affecting PRC and China to include these two pages.
It was also suggested that an article Republic of China (1912-1949) be split off from this one and there was considerable support, without strong opposition. That would allow the current ROC article to avoid being so historical and more focused on the current state, so that it is never ambiguous to the reader that the ROC (Taiwan) does exist today. Perhaps we should consider whether we want to do that first, as it was not very controversial when discussed there. - Metal lunchbox (talk) 20:35, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
I don't think it's necessary to split off ROC (1912-1949). It is just part of the history of the state and what makes it unique. Splitting it makes sense only if we consider ROC a defunct state, which is debatable. Besides ROC article has been a Good Article for a while now and splitting it may compromise its quality. ROC is an article about a state, covering all of its changes. If the consensus is still to split, maybe a more appropriate name for the "ROC (1912-1949)" article would be "History of ROC (1912-1949)". By analogy, the US doesn't have a separate article for each major period, ie, US (13 colonies), US(1776-1861), US (1865-present). etc. - Mistakefinder (talk) 10:23, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
I would also be opposed to a clean split. I used the word "split" above but that was somewhat careless. It seems most reasonable that a separate article should exist for 1912-1949 and this article be left mostly intact. The point is not to exclude material from before 1949 but rather to have the article clearly focus on the ROC which exists today, the one often called "Taiwan". Partly this is to have an article which fits into a "History of China" without it being mostly about Taiwan. That is confusing to say the least. That article could be called "History of ROC (1912-1949)" but the "History" is unneccessarily specific, generally article title policy is to keep it simple unless some extra disambiguation is necessary to avoid confusion. "1912-1949" is clearly about history so we didn't label it as history. To be clear I support including pre-1949 history in the history section of this article, but since there's a whole article devoted to that era, it should be a little bit more summary-style, leaving the history section with somewhat more emphasis on post-1949 history. - Metal lunchbox (talk) 05:45, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
I'm not (seriously) proposing this in any way, but would a disambiguation after "Taiwan" fix the issue of WP:COMMONNAME, e.g. "Taiwan (state)" and "Taiwan (island)"? If you do any search in the news about Taiwan and the Republic of China, the ROC is always referred to as "Taiwan"; any search for "Republic of China" always refers to the People's Republic of China. -Multivariable (talk) 00:41, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
I think the current situation is not ideal, because folks looking searching Taiwan are presumably looking for the topic covered by this article. The problem with the above (not serious) proposal is that the article ROC is not just about the state with its capital in Taipei, its also about a regime which governed the mainland prior to 1949 and whose capital was... well that's kind of complicated. So calling the article "Taiwan (state)" would conflict with this other related topic that doesn't have much to do with Taiwan. Splitting off some of the historical content into a separate pre-1949 article would be helpful. On this article we'd just have summary of that article in the History section with a Main template at the top of the section. That would make dealing with the remaining ROC (Taiwan) and Taiwan (island) articles much more straight-forward. - Metal lunchbox (talk) 01:36, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
I started Republic of China (1912-1949) with the relevant content from this article. Trim 1912-1949 information in this article (there's actually not that much) at your discretion. Quigley (talk) 23:47, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
Good move. I think a Main article link and a brief summary of 1912-1949 history is a better choice than eliminating all mention of the ROC history prior to 1949. The idea is just to have the article focus on the state as it is today so focusing the history on 1949-present, but it does no harm to include some of that prior history and there's some continuity that has to be addressed so treating 1912-1949 history like an unrelated subject is at best confusing. I'll see what I can do to push the section in that direction. - Metal lunchbox (talk) 00:16, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

I think the year 1949 provides a clean break as far as the geography of the entity goes, but we also have to keep in mind that from 1912 there was no single unified political entity spanning the entire period. So geographically, we can divide the periods into 1912-1949 and 1949-present, but politically, we have several distinct entities:

Minor fixes above were made by User:Benlisquare at 09:14, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

Notice that the geography and the polity do not align, and that some of these historical government articles are already treated in Wikipedia as historical states. So I think the Republic of China (1912-1949) article, especially by looking at its infobox, is historically misleading and inaccurate (it lists Nanjing as the capital, which was only true from 1928-1937;1945-1949). So what is the precedent in dealing with countries without a unified central authority and simultaneous rival governments?--Jiang (talk) 03:38, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

The current Republic of China (1912-1949) article is new and by no means comprehensive; if you want to improve the information about the capitals and other things, you are welcome to do it. There is no requirement that I know of for a government to have a "unified central authority" and no "simultaneous rival governments" to have an article on Wikipedia: these things can just be described in the article text. Quigley (talk) 04:25, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
I'm wondering if anyone knows of the precedents. If someone wants to link to the historical ROC, why not just link to history of the Republic of China or one of the political entity articles linked above? This new article might turn out to be redundant.--Jiang (talk) 05:19, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
There are definitely uses for a separate 1912-1949 article. One is in {{WW2InfoBox}}, which previously linked to Republic of China, likely leading readers to believe that Taiwan was fighting for the Allies! The history article is about broad history, but this new article is an overview of a (relatively) clearly defined state and time. Quigley (talk) 05:29, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
In that case, wouldn't we have to link to the same article under both the allies and the belligerents? We should create an article on the Nationalist Government and link to that instead.--Jiang (talk) 07:52, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
I'm all fine with creating a Nationalist Government article, but then what do we do with Republic of China? What happens to that article - do we centre it along the current state governing Taiwan? Also, the title "Nationalist" Government may not be quite descriptive enough - Nationalist of what? There were "Nationalist" Governments in Italy, Austria and South America as well. Surely "Kuomintang Government" and "Nationalist Government of China" would be valid alternatives? -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 06:13, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

The PRC/China article includes a description of the history of the 1912-1949 ROC government because that government was the predecessor of the PRC. To put it another way, the China article talks about the history of the area regardless of what government was in power, and it doesn't ignore everything prior to 1949 just because the PRC didn't exist yet. A Taiwan article should do the same thing. It should recognize that the ROC is the current government and that the ROC is one of the meanings people have when they say "Taiwan". However, when the article goes into history it should stick with the history of Taiwan rather than the government.

However, there should be a place where all of the ROC history is tied together, including the evolution of the government and the continuity of major actors.

So we have a "Taiwan" article with the government box to the right that gives the official name "Republic of China" with the flag and stats and such. The history prior to 1945 talks about the history of Taiwan rather than the history of the ROC (but with a kindly pointer saying "for history of the ROC prior to 1945, see..."). This article will cover all of the things traditional covered by such an article. For deeper information about government things it will provide references to articles about the ROC. For deeper information about everything else it will have pointers to articles about Taiwan.

And we have a "Republic of China" article that in more detail on the government and it's history including the time it spent on the other side of the strait. For detailed history it will also provide a links to the 1912-1949 ROC article.

This will have the ROC history covered like this: 1 detailed article on 1912-1949 ROC history. 1 detailed article on 1945 to present ROC or Taiwan history. An overview of 1912 to 1949 history in the "China" article. A second overview of 1912 to 1949 history in the "Republic of China" article. An overview of the 1945 to present ROC history in the "Taiwan" article. A second overview of the 1945 to present ROC history in the "Republic of China" article. As a alternative naming, we could have a "Nationalist Government" page and have "Republic of China" redirect to "Taiwan" or to "Nationalist Government". Readin (talk) 06:44, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Or a DAB. We don't necessarily have to redirect to one or the other, especially since ROC can refer to either of the two. Though, I personally would prefer it if an actual article existed at ROC, as opposed to a DAB or a redirect. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 06:50, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
I agree, I'd like to retain a "Republic of China" article, I'm not to sure about having a "Nationalist Government" article about the present ROC would be a good thing. As it stands, I like this present article as it is.--Tærkast (Discuss) 13:35, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
We already have a history of the Republic of China article.
The Nationalist Government was legally replaced with the Government of the Republic of China under the 1948 Constitution, so that article would not discuss post-1948 history. American diplomatic sources refer to it as the "National Government of the Republic of China".--Jiang (talk) 17:47, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
I think the Republic of China (1912-1949) is very clear and all set. I am not sure what to do with the general Republic of China if we are supposed to be permanently calling it Taiwan. It seems to contradict again. Benjwong (talk) 22:14, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
Republic of China could re-direct to Taiwan and the Taiwan article could have a hatnote saying where the full History of Republic of China can be found. I could be something like "Republic of China redirects here - for the article focusing on the Republic of China prior to 1949 including those features that survived after the capital was moved to Taiwan, see History of the Republic of China". Or perhaps we could rename the History of Republic of China to be Republic of China with explanatory hatnotes on both that article and the Taiwan article. Readin (talk) 02:05, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia should not be in the business of creating new countries or deleting ones that exist. This concept is ridiculous - since when does Wikipedia have a say in redefining what "China" is? Go to Taiwan, the government and the flag are all Republic of China. Furthermore, Taiwan is not the only island governed by RoC. The Republic of China is still the heart of true Chinese culture, which has been systematically destroyed since the communists usurped the mainland territory. Chinese culture flourished in Taiwan ever since 1950s when PRC was in the business of destroying Chinese culture. If the people representing the best of Chinese culture today are not part of China, who is? 67.174.85.140 (talk) 19:57, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

Again these comments are too late. I was fighting this for the longest time and not enough people came to help. It made more sense to have left China at the crossroad of ROC/PRC. But now that PRC is moved to China. It is very difficult to go back and refer ROC as China anymore. The first reality is that Taiwan is calling itself Taiwan more and more everyday (even if it holds true Chinese culture). The second reality is that the current pan-blue administration also call itself Taiwan more than China. I agree with Readin with moving on to "Taiwan (ROC)", "Taiwan (state)" or Taiwan. Benjwong (talk) 06:05, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
Whatever the arrangements, there should be a topical Republic of China (on its entirety) to cover the instances where we must refer to both the pre-1949 and post-1949 ROC. "Taiwan (ROC)" uses an intialism that most readers would fail to recognize while "Taiwan (state)" runs into NPOV problems in defining Taiwan as a state. I could foresee moving the country template to Republic of China (Taiwan) and have Republic of China be a topical + historical article (move History of the Republic of China over?) without the country template attached. Under this arrangement, where there is a topical and historical Republic of China article, I don't see the need for the Republic of China (1912-1949) article - instead, there should be historical countries template articles made separately for the Beiyang Government and the Nationalist Government.--Jiang (talk) 11:43, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
this seems reasonable. Legally, Taiwan is not a country, it's a landmass (and an administrative region). Shouldn't Wikipedia stick to the laws of the different parties? It's not like there is any legal difference, regardless if you are communist, blue party, green party. None say there is a legally declared state called Taiwan. Why should there be any dispute... 67.174.85.140 (talk) 02:23, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
No, Wikipedia is not a law book whose intention is to report on laws. Wikipedia is tasked with providing accurate information based on reliable sources. laws are written for political purposes, not for providing reliable information. The legal situation should be described because it is relevant and useful information, but it is not the only relevant and useful information and it is not an unbiased source of anything except for information about the law itself.Readin (talk) 03:47, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
It is never too late to correct a mistake. Wikipedia will only lose credibility for capitulating to cultural imperialism instead of being purely factual. The beauty of something like Wikipedia is it usually sticks to the facts, even in a world where the facts are not popular. That's why its especially a shame when Wikipedia allows itself to make such an egregious error. Even separating Republic of China to two articles seems questionable to me, though it is not completely ludicrous and sad, and flying in the face of facts, such as this change is. 67.174.85.140 (talk) 02:20, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
Benjwong, that is a good point but it is fallacious reasoning. Pan-blue leaders use the term 'Taiwan' when addressing the nation, but they have not stopped referring to the country as the Republic of China. It's not unlike us referring to the government as "Washington". I know it's not a perfect example, but it is an example of referring to a place where the government is, rather than by the country's name. "RoC" is still all over the news - especially the Chinese-language news - and especially in light of the upcoming centennial. It is on the name of every government form. It seems dubious at best that we just assume the country is known as Taiwan when the only place Taiwan appears in official documents is as a state. One can simply look at the license plates in Taiwan that say "Taiwan Province", or look at the money which says "Republic of China".... 67.174.85.140 (talk) 02:29, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

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Requested move: Republic of China → Government of Taiwan

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was Withdrawn. Nominator noted snow fail. (non-admin closure) Chipmunkdavis (talk) 09:32, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Republic of China → Government of Taiwan – I know that this is a very sensitive issue, but I think this is a compromise that both sides of the China dispute can live with. For the PRC-haters, we aren't saying that ROC and Taiwan are identical, just that the ROC happens to govern Taiwan. For PRC-non-haters, we have a title that reflects common usage and doesn't confuse readers who aren't familiar with the whole PRC/ROC political situation. I don't mean to piss anyone off with this, I'm hoping that this will be viewed as a reasonable compromise. D O N D E groovily Talk to me 22:57, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

  • Oppose. This is an article about the country Taiwan/Republic of China, not just its government. I think the proposed title is very confusing as it isn't clear at all from it that this article is about a country. Seeing that title you might as well be lead to think the subject of the article is the same as Government of the Republic of China, which it isn't. This is not a title which reflects common usage, I don't think I have ever seen an English-language source which refers to this country as "Government of Taiwan". If we are going to try to get "Taiwan" into the title of the article, this is about the worst solution I have seen yet.TheFreeloader (talk) 23:50, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
    • "Government of Taiwan" gets 330,000 Google results. Among its users are the ROC's Ministry of Foreign Affairs, the New York Times, and Manila's Sun Star. "Republic of China", the current title, does not reflect common usage at all. Common usage would dictate something like "Taiwan (country)" as opposed to "Taiwan (island)". The idea that we shouldn't suggest that "ROC and Taiwan are identical" is a great concession to an extreme minority viewpoint. Quigley (talk) 00:57, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
      • I think you sometimes have to be a bit cautious about how you use Google search results. None of the search results or the links you provided are actually referring to country itself when they are saying "Government of Taiwan", rather they are referring to the government of the country. And again, this isn't an article just about the country's government, but rather about it's the country in general. I'm not against getting "Taiwan" into the title of this article, I just don't think this is the way to do it at all.TheFreeloader (talk) 01:30, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
  • Oppose per The Freeloader. Whoop whoop pull up Bitching Betty | Averted crashes 23:59, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
  • Clarification My intention is that this article gets narrowed to be only about the Republic of China and not about Taiwan at any other time. The ROC article as it stands now is already 90% about government and politics, so it wouldn't be much of a change, and not much would have to move. D O N D E groovily Talk to me 01:36, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
    • I don't agree that this article only is about politics at the moment. And even if it is, it does not help just narrow the scope of the article. Wikipedia needs to have an article on the country of Taiwan. It's an absolutely unacceptable idea that we should just drop having an article about any country, and certainly one which is among the 10,000 most important subjects in the encyclopedia. If this article is skewed towards politics, it should be fixed by adding more content about other aspects of the country (and the article should probably also lose the designation as a good article then). TheFreeloader (talk) 01:57, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
      • Wikipedia does have an article about Taiwan - it's called Taiwan. Everything is already there except for its government. D O N D E groovily Talk to me 04:12, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
        • That is supposed to be the article about the island of Taiwan, not the country. If you want to have the article about the country be named "Taiwan", then this is definitely the wrong way to go about that. At best this is a very misleading way of doing it. I don't see this move having a snowballs chance in hell of going through, and I do wish you would consider retracting your move request, so as not to waste people's time and patience with this subject. I don't think it will improve this article's chances of eventually getting renamed to have this move request discussion go through its full duration. You could file a new move request which actually reflects your desire to rename the article about the country to "Taiwan" afterwards, although I think some people who are for the renaming of these articles would like to see other possibilities explored further first.TheFreeloader (talk) 05:47, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
  • Oppose Regardless of whether Taiwan = the ROC, "Government of Taiwan" is a rather abnormal title for the current article's subject matter. --Cybercobra (talk) 02:53, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
  • Oppose per The Freeloader. This is political correctness without a coherent rationale. --Ohconfucius ¡digame! 03:24, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
  • Oppose: This article is about the country not just the government. The title "Government of Taiwan" doesn't accurately describe what this article is about. The title "Government of Taiwan" also suggests that the article talks about the actual government of Taiwan and it suggests that it only presents information on single aspect of a country, the government. Sections such as Demographics or Economy would not be included. Elockid (Talk) 03:35, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
  • Strong Oppose Taiwan is a province inside the Republic of China. The two topics are not equivalent. Further, there is more than one provice still (partially) under the control of Taipei. 70.24.251.158 (talk) 04:09, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
  • Oppose: "Taiwan" does not have a government, unless you're referring to the provincial council. The political entity governing Taiwan, Penghu, Kinmen, Matsu, the Dongsha and Taiping islands has a government, and that political entity is called the Republic of China. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 04:20, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
  • oppose This article isn't only about the government in it's current status of ruling the country Taiwan,but also about the historical roots in China long before it occupied Taiwan. that's the reason this article is separated from the Taiwan article in the first place. Readin (talk) 03:35, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
  • Oppose as this article's content isn't limited to the government. GoodDay (talk) 12:28, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
  • Oppose per other comments, this article is not limited to a government, but covers the Republic of China in its entirety, including its present status, so that title is quite inappropriate and not really a good compromise IMO.--Tærkast (Discuss) 19:18, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Request to merge this with the Taiwan article

Under the Common Name principle, the People's Republic of China was mereged with China. Under the same principle, Taiwan and the Republic of China article should be merged as well, Taiwan is the ROC's common name and what the world over recognizes it as surely as they equate the PRC with China. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.53.78.140 (talk) 23:40, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Taiwan is an island, and a geographical location. The ROC is not. The ROC is a geopolitical entity, and Taiwan as an island is not (there is Taiwan Province, but modern-day relevance and significance is quite questionable). -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 05:15, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

---Taiwan is common name of the Republic of China. Just as China is the People's Republic of China. I have to question your POV on this one. You're showing some bias. You're splitting hairs on ROC (Taiwan) versus PRC (China). I'm certainly not surprised that your family is from Beijing and that you obviously do not see ROC (Taiwan) as a sovereign state, but an island. No doubt a renegade one that needs to be reunited with the Mainland. Why even have an article that says China? It's no more than a geographical location in Asia. Just call the China article "People's Republic of China". If we are to apply the common name principle to PRC (China), it should be applied equally and fairly to ROC (Taiwan). Anything less would be a biased POV.

Nope. Argue the content, and not ad hominem. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 16:21, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

---Okay: ---Taiwan is common name of the Republic of China. Just as China is the People's Republic of China. Why even have an article that says China? It's no more than a geographical location in Asia. Just call the China article "People's Republic of China". If we are to apply the common name principle to PRC (China), it should be applied equally and fairly to ROC (Taiwan). Anything less would be a biased POV. Even the ROC page: http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/ROC shows "Republic of China (commonly known as Taiwan)". The common name principal should be applied fairly here and the Taiwan article should be merged with the ROC article.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.53.78.144 (talk) 16:43, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

Supplemental: The CIA World Factbook calls it Taiwan: https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/tw.html Encyclopedia Britannica calls it Taiwan: http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/580902/Taiwan. And many more that shows that this article should be merged with the Taiwan article.

Is Kinmen, Matsu and Taiping Island located within Taiwan? In 1927, was Beijing located within Taiwan? Has Sun Yat-sen, the first president of the ROC, ever been to the Japanese colony of Taiwan? In 1942, was Taiwan an Allied belligerent or an Axis belligerent? -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 00:59, 27 October 2011 (UTC)
This move request is premature. First, we need to rename this article to something like "Republic of China (Taiwan)" to avoid irrelevant arguments about the Republic of China (1912–1949). Then we can discuss a move to "Taiwan". Taiwan is also an island, and the article for the island would be "Taiwan (island)". Quigley (talk) 01:54, 27 October 2011 (UTC)
The ROC includes more than Taiwan, it also includes Kinmen Matsu and many other islands outside the Taiwan Area. The RoC post-Oct1949 also had control of everything south the Yangtze, of which the government was located at Guangzhou, later moved to Chongqing on 14 October, then Chengdu 30 November. Government was not moved to Taipei until 12 December, more than 2 months after 1 October. Hainan and Dachen islands remained under RoC control until 1950 and 1955 respectively, not to mention the various ROC enclaves in the mainland which were not all lost until the 1960s. If you want to split at October 1949, then you've to allow all of these post Oct1949 possessions into account. Liu Tao (talk) 17:42, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
While history does get mentioned in the article, the main article's for history are History of Taiwan and History of ROC. The fact that Taiwan controlled parts of mainland China for a short time period 50 years ago shouldn't be a major consideration for an article that is concerned mainly with the present. Readin (talk) 06:27, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
I'm curious about these enclaves that existed until the 1960s. I don't see any mention of it in the History of Republic of China article. I would like to know more. Readin (talk) 06:27, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
Two articles that deal with this are Kuomintang Islamic insurgency in China (1950–1958) and Campaign at the China–Burma Border. However, I would liken these cases to that of Hiroo Onoda, "a former Japanese army intelligence officer who fought in World War II and did not surrender until 1974, having spent almost 30 years holding out in the Philippines." Quigley (talk) 14:29, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

I think a rename of this article would actually be a merger with the Taiwan article, and I think discussion of such a merger needs to consider the larger picture of Taiwan's history as a country (in the sense of an area with a people and a separate history from other areas) and the history of the ROC as it existed both in mainland China and in Taiwan. Ill repeat a suggestion I made earlier:

The PRC/China article includes a description of the history of the 1912-1949 ROC government because that government was the predecessor of the PRC. To put it another way, the China article talks about the history of the area regardless of what government was in power, and it doesn't ignore everything prior to 1949 just because the PRC didn't exist yet. A Taiwan article should do the same thing. It should recognize that the ROC is the current government and that the ROC is one of the meanings people have when they say "Taiwan". However, when the article goes into history it should stick with the history of Taiwan rather than the government.
However, there should be a place where all of the ROC history is tied together, including the evolution of the government and the continuity of major actors.
So we have a "Taiwan" article with the government box to the right that gives the official name "Republic of China" with the flag and stats and such. The history prior to 1945 talks about the history of Taiwan rather than the history of the ROC (but with a kindly pointer saying "for history of the ROC prior to 1945, see..."). This article will cover all of the things traditional covered by such an article. For deeper information about government things it will provide references to articles about the ROC. For deeper information about everything else it will have pointers to articles about Taiwan.
And we have a "Republic of China" article that in more detail on the government and it's history including the time it spent on the other side of the strait. For detailed history it will also provide a links to the 1912-1949 ROC article.
This will have the ROC history covered like this: 1 detailed article on 1912-1949 ROC history. 1 detailed article on 1945 to present ROC or Taiwan history. An overview of 1912 to 1949 history in the "China" article. A second overview of 1912 to 1949 history in the "Republic of China" article. An overview of the 1945 to present ROC history in the "Taiwan" article. A second overview of the 1945 to present ROC history in the "Republic of China" article. As a alternative naming, we could have a "Nationalist Government" page and have "Republic of China" redirect to "Taiwan" or to "Nationalist Government".

I notice I left out a "History of Republica of China" article. I think it makes sense to have as an overview that links to main articles. Readin (talk) 06:37, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

That is a sensible organization of the articles. Readers generally want - and Wikipedia generally gives - a history of the area, and not a history of the regime. Quigley (talk) 14:29, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

The current status of a "Republic of China" existing and a "People's Republic of China" standalone article no longer existing is very inconsistent. Benjwong (talk) 18:12, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Yes it is. Unfortunately, when it was brought up during the requested move of PRC to "China", that was considered irrelevant.--Tærkast (Discuss) 12:09, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

Conducting a news search on "Republic of China" yields news on the PRC: http://www.google.com/#q=republic+of+china+news&hl=en&prmd=imvns&source=lnms&tbm=nws&ei=aQK8Tp7_Bcnm0QGG2_nABA&sa=X&oi=mode_link&ct=mode&cd=5&ved=0CBQQ_AUoBA&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=63e300433d59130&biw=1280&bih=846 Conducting a news search on "Taiwan" yields news on Taiwan: http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&tbm=nws&source=hp&q=taiwan+news&pbx=1&oq=taiwan+news&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=44832l45440l2l45596l6l4l0l0l0l0l0l0ll0l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=63e300433d59130&biw=1280&bih=846 Why is it only Wikipedia is out of step with the current world reality? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.53.46.140 (talk) 16:59, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

You haven't conducted your search properly. A search for ［"Republic of China" -People's］ would have been more appropriate. Remember that Google is a conglomeration of software running on a series of computers, not a mind-reading human. You either do it properly, or you won't get what you want. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 06:00, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
The Republic of China encompasses more than just the island of Taiwan, which is the reality of the situation, just that Taiwan has become a common name for the ROC now. See WP:NC-TW for current practice. If Wikipedia reflected "reality", then Burma would be at Myanmar. --Tærkast (Discuss) 17:12, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
If "China" can be used as the common name of the People's Republic of China's article, why cannot "Taiwan" be used as the common name of the Republic of China? Where's the consistency here? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.53.46.140 (talk) 17:59, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
Consistency was conisidered irrelevant in that controversial move, for some reason. I think the status quo will remain until a new requested move for Taiwan and the ROC.--Tærkast (Discuss) 18:03, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
On the other hand, if we were to follow your idea that the ROC is more than just the island of Taiwan, then the "China" article should revert back to show the PRC AND the ROC; "China" is more than the Mainland and the PRC, it is also Taiwan, Matsu, Kinmen, etc and the ROC. Again, where's the consistency here? The entire thing was extremely poorly thought out by people who are obviously not well versed on this topic.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.53.46.140 (talk) 17:59, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
I was one of those who actually opposed the move, and I still disagree with it. There was quite a lot of discussion in the move. You bring up valid points, it does leave us with now "China (PRC)" and "Republic of China". This issue will have to be sorted out sooner or later.--Tærkast (Discuss) 18:11, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
The French Republic includes both France and Corsica, yet the article for it is France. The Italizn Republic includes Italy, Sicily and Sardinia, yet the article for it is Italy. The PRC includes China and Tibet, yet the article for it is China. The Kingdom of Spain includes Spain and the Balearic islands, but the article for it is Spain. It is entirely natural and consistent that the article for the Taiwan and the state that currently governs Taiwan, Kinmen and Matsu would be called "Taiwan". Readin (talk) 21:36, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
I agree with your argument about Taiwan, but your conception of a "China" that excludes "Tibet" is misleading. Taiwan, as an island, has clear and static boundaries: China, by contrast, has always referred to the land that the current Chinese government occupied, which often included Tibet and does now. Same goes for Spain, Italy, and France: it would be more precise to say that the Italy includes the Italian Peninsula, Sicily, and Sardinia. Quigley (talk) 22:13, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
Also, I'm not sure I'll say that it was poorly thought out per se. The issue goes back quite a while actually, and I do respect the admins for making the decision.--Tærkast (Discuss) 12:02, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

definition of a "country" under the Montevideo Convention

The article says "The ROC is the only state in the world that meets the definition of a "country" under the Montevideo Convention (...)" I'm not a lawyer but is the ROC really the only state in the world that fulfills the said criteria? Are there really no others that fulfill them too? Something seems a bit strange here. ViennaUK (talk) 21:20, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

I think the point of that sentence was to say that the ROC was the "only state" that both meets the criteria and does not have UN membership, but that's not true either. I have removed the sentence. Quigley (talk) 22:32, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

Requested move: Republic of China → Taiwan

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus to support move at this time. Although slight, the discussion leans towards oppose. Thanks for the civil interatctions. Arbitrarily0 (talk) 03:45, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Republic of China → Taiwan

- The previous request to move this article to Taiwan failed, as the petitioner failed to argue the case thoroughly. It's time to try again. Crispus (talk) 02:47, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Considering that now the People's Republic of China is under China, the time has come. This article must now be moved to Taiwan. Why? There are several reasons.

  1. It is the most common name. Most English speakers are confused by the term Republic of China. Taiwan is equally accurate a descriptor, yet far more understood.
  2. It avoids confusion. First, this article easily confuses those people who are not familiar with the fact that the government currently in Taiwan used to control most of the Mainland. In addition, now that the page previously at the People's Republic of China is at China, many people will now confuse the pages "China" and "Republic of China."
  3. It provides symmetry and consistency. China and Taiwan. With Republic of China redirecting to Taiwan, and People's Republic of China redirecting to China. Much clearer.
  4. It clarifies the purpose of the article. Right now, the article is trying to be both a historical article, about the rule on the mainland, but also a political article about the present state. The result is a mess. Much of the material covered in the history section is also covered in the China article.

To address several potential rebuttals:

  1. "This title isn't neutral": When people say Taiwan, they mean the government that resides there, and the people. The common name for that political body is Taiwan. Saying so isn't biased. It's just what it is. Remember, that neutrality must be balanced with clarity. And even if this title were slightly biased, this title is also far more clear.
  2. "Taiwan is the island, so there's too much confusion, as the government controls several other islands!" The Taiwanese government does control several islands besides Taiwan, including the Pescadores, Matsu, and Kinmen, so confusion could potentially arise. However, this issue has been dealt with before many times. See Malta v. Malta Island, Hawaii v. Hawaii (island), Orkney v. Mainland, Orkney, etc. Considering the naming confusions which already exist, this concern is minor. The article for Taiwan could be moved to Taiwan island, as the island would be specified using this name in English, much like 台湾岛 is used in Chinese. Then that article could be adjusted accordingly.
  3. "This isn't what Chinese people call it." This isn't Chinese Wikipedia. This is English Wikipedia. In English, Taiwan usually refers to the autonomous semi-recognized state. Period. And keeping it at Republic of China, when you already have the PRC at China, only adds to the confusion. Furthermore, many major news sources, including the New York Times, BBC, and Al Jazeera use the name Taiwan, as well.

For all these reasons, I feel that this article must be moved to Taiwan, instead of staying at Republic of China.Crispus (talk) 02:47, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

What do you plan to move the article currently titled Taiwan to.--70.24.209.180 (talk) 03:55, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
It would be moved to Taiwan Island.Crispus (talk) 04:02, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
So in the Kinmen and Liangchang county article. You are going to write, they are controlled by Taiwan? Um, its not as simple as comparing with other situations e.g. Malta or Cyprus. Taiwan never had control of the islands, its the ROC which has controlled. In historical context, its going to muck up more articles. More inconsistencies than worth the hassle to correct the name. Unless you got a better way to deal with this. --Visik (Chinwag Podium) 07:03, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
Agree. 119.237.249.129 (talk) 08:29, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
If the ROC government is referred to as the Taiwanese government, which it is in English, then Taiwan does control these islands. And the articles are already mucked up, so that's no big problem. 72.145.232.33 (talk) 11:15, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
Sun Yat-sen, Beiyang, and Nanjing wouldn't have to be mentioned in the article at all. The history section of this article would be replaced by "History of Taiwan," instead. Therefore, your argument is irrelevent.Crispus (talk) 04:46, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
No, it is relevant.
Taiwan was governed by the Japanese
Chiang moved his government, intact to Taiwan
The ROC on Taiwan has developed differently, but still the same government
Academic sources related to China and China specialist sources clearly disambiguate
WhisperToMe (talk) 17:04, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
A good comparison for this issue would be to the Byzantine Empire. Yes, the Byzantines might have claimed to their dying day to be Romans, but in English, they are thought of as a distinct state, despite the government staying the same. Just because Augustus never travelled to Byzantium is no reason for their not the be a separate article for the Byzantines, focusing on the territory they controlled.Crispus (talk) 05:06, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
The Byzantine empire has a far longer history than the ROC. And this is a division western historians do make. People who study China do not conflate ROC with Taiwan. WhisperToMe (talk) 17:04, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
Maybe I should put it this way: yes, moving the article to Taiwan will mean that there will have to be substantial overhaul of this article. But it is evident from merge that is currently requested that an overhaul is needed, anyway. Crispus (talk) 05:17, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
  • Strongly Support: I made similar comments over at Talk:Republic of China (1912-1949). There is only ONE scenario where ROC pre-1949 is the same as post-1949. That is the scenario where everyone agrees ROC is still China and has been continuously going for 100 years. After years of discussion and debate, I couldn't convince enough people that was true. In fact overwhelming number of people like Metallunchbox, Quigley, Benlisquare and many others said that PRC is China. That the ROC is just a left-over regime, 99% of the people call PRC China, even the UN doesn't recognize Taiwan, the island is just a province etc. All these comments are legit. Either ROC is still China or not, that last vote said it loud and clear... it is not. We moved PRC -> China. Now we need to move ROC -> Taiwan to avoid any more inconsistencies. Benjwong (talk) 05:20, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
According to the Taiwan Relations Act, Taiwan covers only the islands of Taiwan and the Pescadores (cf. s.15(2)). In other words it does not cover the Pratas Islands, Wuchiu, Quemoy, the Matsu Islands and Itu Aba. It does not cover the entirety of the modern territorial extent of the Republic of China. 119.237.249.129 (talk) 10:52, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
This is how Britannica defines: ' In addition to the main island, the ROC government has jurisdiction over 22 islands in the Taiwan group and 64 islands to the west in the Pescadores archipelago. '. The whole entry makes no mention of Quemoy and Matsu, not to mention Wuchiu, Itu Aba and the Pratas Islands. Reuters likewise does not define Taiwan by geography or territorially. 119.237.249.129 (talk) 11:03, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
Britannica also says, "Quemoy Island, ... island under the jurisdiction of Taiwan." Britannica`s article on Taiwan, as well as the BBC's country profile, both give Ma Ying-jeou as the president. This makes sense only if you equate Taiwan with ROC. Kauffner (talk) 11:47, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
  • Support per WP:COMMONNAME. But I think the article about the island should be moved to Taiwan (island) instead, because I think the island is most often just called "Taiwan", and not "Taiwan Island". And in that event Wikipedia usually indicates what isn't part of the common name for a subject, but rather a disambiguation term, with a parenthesis. I also think this move will require that some of the pre-1949 content in this article gets pruned and moved to other articles.TheFreeloader (talk) 07:18, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
    • Bad argument, since "Taiwan" clearly refers to an area which was not always under RoC control - we can still refer to the territory without referring to its current government. Moreover, Taiwan is one of several landmasses and provinces in the (current) RoC. — Preceding unsigned comment added by TruthAndHonestyFirst (talk • contribs) 04:46, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
      • The name "Taiwan" can refer to both a country/autonomous region and an island, just like "Australia" refers to both a country and a landmass. And I think in the case of Taiwan, like in the case of Australia, the country is the primary topic over the landmass. I think people are much more likely to be looking for the country of Taiwan than the island Taiwan when they type in "Taiwan" in the search field.TheFreeloader (talk) 16:53, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
  • Comment, As far as Taiwan being moved to either Taiwan (island) or Taiwan Island, I think that when a speaker is trying to clarify that he means the island, and not the country, he (or she) would say Taiwan Island. That's just my two cents. But if that article move occurs, the whole Taiwan (island) v. Taiwan Island debate will be a pretty minor issue.

    As for the other issue, pruning out all of the pre-1949 material is one of the key reasons why Republic of China needs to become Taiwan, as that would provide clarity. Crispus (talk) 07:38, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

  • Support, and thank you for one of the clearest and most persuasive RM proposals I've ever read, and I've read quite a few! In short, I'm convinced that "Taiwan" is the most common name for the topic of this article, and that ROC, while arguably more technically correct, is less commonly used and so more confusing. Setting it up with ROC redirecting to Taiwan, and the existing article Taiwan about the island being moved to Taiwan Island (or, even better Taiwan (island), per FreeLoader), addresses everything. --Born2cycle 07:40, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
    • Undecided After reading the article (should have done this first!) and the oppose arguments here, I am changing my vote from Support to Undecided. The proposal seemed clear, but I realize now that that is because it oversimplified the situation. From a historical perspective, the ROC currently has jurisdiction primarily of the territory known as Taiwan, but it's arguably misleading to refer to this nation as Taiwan, even though it is commonly done. This is all very complicated and I feel I've only learned enough to be unqualified to be helpful in this decision. If I learn more, I may change my opinion again, but I urge no one to close this discussion hastily. We owe it to ourselves and our readers to work this out, and this particular discussion is probably as good a place to do that as any. --born2cYcle 21:21, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
I'm just beginning to understand the many things that my request should have covered that I didn't...I'm still fervently behind the movement to change it, of course, but I much more clearly understand more arguments against it, while simultaneously seeing more reasons to support the change. Either way, I'm glad the topic was brought out again, in light of PRC being switched over to China. Crispus (talk) 06:48, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
  • Support, as per reasons given in nom. Taiwan is certainly the common name for this topic. We should use common name unless we have a good reason not to. The content will need to be adjusted. I also expect that some links will need to be changed to point to History of the Republic of China or the 1912-1949 article for those links where the topic is clearly the ROC prior to it's move to Taiwan. Compare to Australia v. Australia (Continent). I'm impressed that me and Benjwong get to agree on this issue. - Metal lunchbox (talk) 09:07, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
  • Comment, Another advantage of these moves that I didn't list is that it would provide for the easy merger of History of the Republic of China and History of the Republic of China (1912-1949), as History of Taiwan articles would kick in after 1949. However, as the time from 1898-1945 for Taiwan are covered in the article dealing with it as a Japanese colony, I do wonder what should be done for the four brief years when Taiwan and the mainland of China are unified. Another issue would be where, if at all, to stick in articles about The Republic on the mainland in an article entitled "Taiwan." Just some more things to think about... Crispus (talk) 09:43, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
  • Support Very well made proposal, including the point 2 for rebuttal. I think some sort of Republic of China article could exist to describe the history of the regime and governmental system (basically what we have in the history section now). As for the note this article would need an overhaul, it wouldn't; just a change to history. Other sections are in the present. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 10:13, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
  • Oppose Republic of China cannot be made to redirect to Taiwan. That will cause confusion in pre-1949 references to the ROC many times more so than what is caused with some unfamiliarity with the term Republic of China in the present tense. A Republic of China article simply needs to exist on Wikipedia, and be about the Republic of China in its entirety (1912 to present), whether or not the country template exists on it. Instead, I would support 1) move Republic of China to Republic of China (Taiwan), 2) move History of the Republic of China to Republic of China, and 3) merge Taiwan with Republic of China (Taiwan). Like the China merger where there was no support for a Chinese civilization article, no one really supports this proposal in its entirety; they just support having the country template moved under Taiwan. There is no reason for the "Taiwan (island)" article to exist after the move, so it should not be proposed in the interests of clarity.--Jiang (talk) 15:29, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
So if this page is moved and the redirect is replaced by a history article on the government then this would be a support correct? I said a similar thing just above in my comment. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 15:47, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
I am neutral as to where the country template should reside, but I oppose turning "Republic of China" into a redirect and having Taiwan moved to Taiwan (island) instead of being merged into this one.--Jiang (talk) 16:13, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
You definitely have have valid points that need to be addressed. As it is, I do think that the term "Republic of China" is an ambiguous term, as much as "Roman Empire might have been an ambiguous term in the Middle Ages, when you had the Holy Roman Empire and the Byzantine Empire still going by this name, and the old defunct Roman Empire as well. As somebody mentioned earlier in the comments, in French Wikipedia, Republic of China leads to a disambiguation. Perhaps it would be good to have a similar idea for English Wikipedia, so that from that page you could go to Republic of China (1911-1949), Taiwan, or China (as People's Republic of China does include the words "Republic of China" in it). As for needing to have a page that deals with the Republic of China from 1912 to the present, I would have to disagree with you, agains citing the Roman Emipire/ Byzantine Empire as an example where this is not done. Crispus (talk) 15:56, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
Disambiguation pages are for mutually exclusive concepts - this is not. A disambiguation page would make sense if some Republic of China were established post-1949 with no relation (except in name) with the former, but here, the entity in Taiwan is politically continuous with the entity established under Sun Yat-sen in Guangzhou in the 1920s, even though the geographical boundaries of the state were vastly changed in 1949. It would be more helpful to readers to have content on all five or six competing regimes to sit on the same page. We have the Provisional Government (1912), Beiyang Government (1913-1929), Sun Yat-sen KMT Government (1921-23; reappearing 1925-27) and splitting in 1927 to the Chiang Kai-shek KMT Government (1927-31) and the Hu Hanmin and Wang Jingwei rival KMT governments (1928), with the Japanese supported governments sprouting up in 1937 and under Wang Jingwei in 1941, and finally with the Chiang Kai-shek KMT Government prevailing, and forming a constitutional government that exists to the present day, but governing only a tiny fraction of its original territory. Some of these entities were more historically continuous, or had more recognized or actual authority than others. But the point is, the complexity and political thorniness of the situation is best explained with text, not a disambiguation page that fails to recognize continuity where it exists, and lack of continuity where it does not.
We have already put up a historical country template for the Beiyang Government article. We need a Nationalist Government article to cover the period 1927-1948. Politics and geography do not align: the state was politically extinguished in 1929 but geographically remained the same; it was not politically extinguished in 1949 but geographically extinguished. I proposed earlier on this same page to have historical country templates for these regimes, while having a general overview at the Republic of China article describing the relationship among these competing regimes. In line with this, I would support transforming this article to be solely about post-1949 (and renaming accordingly), rather than attempting to use a country template (which is closely tied to geography) to both the pre and the post 1949 Republic of China. --Jiang (talk) 16:11, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
Disambiguation pages are to clear up confusion, and they often do have to deal with similar things, such as the "Roman Empire" disambiguation page, which includes multiple regimes that had a continuous rule of the same government. The reason for a disambiguation page would be that the term Republic of China is unclear in English, as even though a modern day state uses this name, the commonly used name is Taiwan, while the historical entity was typically known as the Republic of China, especially during the civil war, to contrast it with the opposing side. Yes, there is continuity in the government that was on the mainland and the government in Taiwan, but that shouldn't keep the state in Taiwan from being known by the name which it most commonly is referred to as in English. The fact that the Republic of China was the same government on the mainland and Taiwan should be addressed, but the fact is that state in Taiwan is no longer most commonly referred to as "Republic of China" in English. Crispus (talk) 16:33, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
Sorry to always use the Byzantine Empire as an example. The Yuan Dynasty→Northern Yuan, and Qin (state)→ Qin Dynasty transition also involved the same governments, as Ukhaantu Khan and Qin Shihuang were the leaders during the transition periods. However, there is no article to cover the Yuan dynasty all the way from Genghis Khan to when the Manchus conquered Mongolia, nor is there an article covering the Qin rulers all the way from the foundation of the kingdom to the fall of the first Chinese dynasty. Crispus (talk) 17:03, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
The Northern Yuan is indeed covered under the Yuan dynasty article at Yuan_dynasty#Northern_Yuan. This is somewhat how I envision the Republic of China article to be like - less than half the focus should be on Taiwan, but the period from 1949 is surely significant enough to deserve a top-level section on its own. An article is going to be clearer and more informative than a disambiguating list, especially if we leave country template material with the individual regimes, rather than to pretend that there was a single entity from 1912 to 1949 as the newly created Republic of China (1912-1949) misleadingly does. I think history of the Republic of China best approximates this.--Jiang (talk) 17:13, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
Wouldn't this issue be handled by focusing this article (with title Taiwan and to which Republic of China redirects) primarily on the modern territory, government and culture, and having a hatnote link at the top that says, "Republic of China redirects here. This article is about the modern nation. For earlier references to "Republic of China" see History of The Republic of China", or something to that effect? --Born2cycle 17:05, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
That would theoretically work, but assumes "Republic of China" more commonly prefers to the present rather than the past. I don't think this is true. If it commonly refers to the past, the history article should occupy the main topic space.--Jiang (talk) 17:13, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
I agree with Jiang on that one. Saying the Republic of China is unclear, as it refers to either the old historical rule over the mainland, or the present day situation in Taiwan. The article would have to be entitled "History of the Republic of China (1912-1949)."Crispus (talk) 17:38, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
I guess that the main problem that we've discovered through this highly constructive debate is that there is no term which universally refers to the main government of China from 1912-1949, without having the additional meaning of the present day government in Taiwan. Anybody's thoughts on this issue? Crispus (talk) 18:26, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
Well, I think it would be very difficult to make the case that the history of the ROC is the primary topic for ROC. It sounds like Republic of China needs to be dab page, with links to Taiwan and History of the Republic of China or maybe to Republic of China, 1912-1949, or something like that. --Born2cycle 00:17, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
Agreed. That seems to be the most sensible way to handle things, as it strikes me as the most natural way to reach these topics in the English language. Crispus (talk) 00:30, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
I am totally unconvinced that Republic of China should be a disambiguation page. To draw parallels in Chinese history: Han dynasty, Song dynasty, and Yuan dynasty are not disambiguation pages pointing to Eastern Han, Western Han, Northern Song, and Northern Yuan. An article exclusively on the post 1949 should exist (as is proposed in his move proposal), but this does not mean a more general article on the Republic of China should not.--Jiang (talk) 10:35, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
  • support. Nothing much to add to the comprehensive nomination, except to note that historical concerns are just that: historical. Article names are based on the common name in use today, and the common name for the ROC today is Taiwan.--JohnBlackburnewordsdeeds 16:20, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
    • Jock Blackburne, a "state" article has to cover the history, otherwise it's not complete. The historical concerns cannot be waved away. The ROC state was founded by Sun Yat-sen, and taken by Chiang, then moved across the strait. There must be a distinction between ROC the state and Taiwan the island. WhisperToMe (talk) 16:52, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
  • Support: per WP:COMMONNAME. Elockid (Alternate) (Talk) 17:39, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
  • Tentative support oppose: I agree that Wikipedia should name its articles according to the most common English usage, and that "Taiwan" is the most common English name for the government that governs the island of Taiwan. The problem with this title is that it is ambiguous, and it doesn't reflect what the Taiwanese government actually calls itself. The best name for this article would be "Taiwan (Republic of China)", which is both unambiguous and an accurate reflection of the Taiwanese government's actual name.Ferox Seneca (talk) 19:36, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
How is the term Taiwan ambiguous? There isn't another Taiwan out there. My main problem with Taiwan (Republic of China) is that it isn't very natural. It is more informative, but I still think that parenthesis in country names should be avoided (with the exception of Georgia). Crispus (talk) 19:50, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
Using the term "Taiwan" to mean "the government that governs Taiwan" is ambiguous because the term "Taiwan" also refers to a geographical location called "Taiwan" (not "Taiwan island"), whose history is longer, more complicated, and different than the government that now governs Taiwan. It seems potentially confusing to me to have an article named "Taiwan" which refers specifically and only to the government that governs Taiwan, and not to Taiwan-in-general. In Taiwan, the area of Taiwan governed by the Taiwanese government (that is, Taiwan) is most commonly referred to as "Taiwan (ROC)" (isn't that sentence potentially confusing?). Ignoring the perspective of Taiwanese English speakers out-of-hand errs slightly on the side of WP:BIAS.Ferox Seneca (talk) 03:58, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
Just from my experience, every time I've met a person from Taiwan, they said that they were from Taiwan, not the Republic of China. This includes the times I met them in China as well, so they definitely used the term "Taiwan" to distinguish it from China. I can see the potential confusion with the government/geography thing, but here's the way I see it. The article Republic of China is not about the government, it's about the state that is on Taiwan, composed of over 20 million people, who are citizens of the nation. Most of the people in Taiwan are historically from there, and even if the government institutions are originally from elsewhere, the way to refer to the nation in Engish has now switched over to being Taiwan. Crispus (talk) 04:16, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
And every time someone from Hong Kong is asked, they say they are from Hong Kong. Doesn't make Hong Kong any less Chinese. Given the negative connotations given to the PRC, commonly termed "China", especially within the western media, people from Hong Kong and Taiwan are reluctant to associate themselves with melamine milk poisoning, communism, little girls being run over by cars, the whole hubbub in Tibet, and a plethora of other things. See also my earlier post(s) at Talk:Senkaku Islands dispute/Archive 5#Lead section specifically dealing with the issue. What some people might call themselves isn't really that relevant to how we name an article. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 06:27, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
I agree that many/most Taiwanese English-speakers informally refer to Taiwan as "Taiwan", but it is difficult for me to know whether Taiwanese English-speakers who refer to Taiwan as "Taiwan" reject the idea that the government of Taiwan is called "the Republic of China".
Because this article is on the state that governs Taiwan (versus any other definition of "Taiwan"), I still oppose renaming this article as simply "Taiwan" because neither the Taiwanese government nor any of the nations which are by definition most friendly and sympathetic to Taiwan believe that the name of the Taiwanese government is "Taiwan". Of the twenty-three nations that continue to recognize Taiwan as a fully sovereign nation, all of them recognize the government of "the Republic of China", and zero nations recognize "Taiwan". I agree that "Taiwan" should be present in the the title of this article because Taiwan is informally referred to that way; but, because "Taiwan" is definitely not recognized as the actual name of Taiwan's government by the government of Taiwan or any other government that recognizes the government of Taiwan, I don't believe that the term "Republic of China" should be removed from this article's title.Ferox Seneca (talk) 18:15, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
Agreed. No UN member state recognises "Taiwan" as a nation, country or sovereign state; 23 countries (such as the Holy See and a group of Carribean nations) recognise the "Republic of China", and the rest (such as the United States) have either informal relations with "Taiwan, Province of China" (due to the One China policy, however they do not specifically state which "China", i.e. a policy of deliberate ambiguity), or no relations at all (e.g. North Korea, and Middle Eastern nations). Informal relations do not represent official terminology, it is the official relations that count. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 01:05, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
The U.S. State Department calls it just plain "Taiwan". The U.S. consulate is called the American Institute in Taiwan. The Taiwan Relations Act says, "the governing authorities on Taiwan recognized by the United States as the Republic of China prior to January 1, 1979." It's not the "Taiwan Province Relations Act", you know. Kauffner (talk) 03:18, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
But the Taiwan Relations Act doesn't cover Quemoy, Matsu, Wuchiu, Pratas and Itu Aba (cf s.15(2)). In other words Taiwan according to US statute doesn't cover the entirety of the extent of the modern Republic of China. 119.237.249.129 (talk) 04:24, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
The Taiwan Relations Act does not refer to Taiwan as a country, but an island. Quote (bold for emphasis): "An act to help maintain peace, security, and stability in the Western Pacific and to promote the foreign policy of Jimmy Carter by authorizing the continuation of commercial, cultural, and other relations between the people of the United States and the people on Taiwan, and for other purposes." Note "people on Taiwan" - following standard English grammar, you can put people on an island, but not on a country. You put people in a country. If the act referred to Taiwan as a country, it would have said "people in Taiwan". The phrases "people on China", "people on Russia" and "people on Los Angeles" make no sense; the phrases "people in China", "people in Russia" and "people in Los Angeles" do. Likewise, the phrases "people on New York Island", "people on the Titanic", and "people on the International Space Station" make sense. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 11:49, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
I would certainly be surprised if Carter's name was ever rendered as "Jimmy" in statute. The AIT's text doesn't mention Carter at all. But it does state state, "the term 'Taiwan' includes, as the context may require, the islands of Taiwan and the Pescadores." So Taiwan is defined as a state comprising multiple islands. Kauffner (talk) 04:57, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
"the Pescadores" (i.e. Penghu) is traditionally associated with Taiwan Island. Due to proximity, Penghu and Taiwan were annexed by Japan after the First Sino-Japanese War, and today Penghu County is a subdivision of Taiwan Province; it does not form it's own provincial-level political division. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 05:07, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
  • Support per WP:COMMONAME. AFAIK a common name for 'China from 1912-1949' is 'Nationalist China'. Flamarande (talk) 20:33, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
    • Comment: "Nationalist China" is an informal coinage used only by certain sides. The PRC was called "Red China" by the west, and informally "New China" (Xin Zhongguo) by left-wing intellectuals; the Wang Jingwei regime was called "New China" by pro-Japanese collaborationists, and "Hanjian" by the KMT government; those in support of abortion are either "pro-choice" or "anti-life"; those who are economically successful in society are termed "the 1%". "Nationalist China" is by no means a viable title for an article, as it implies a specific viewpoint, and is informal. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 01:31, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
Yes, I'd have to agree with Benlisquare on this one. Nationalist China, while a good descriptor, is just not quite article name-worthy...Until we can think up something better, I guess it'll just have to stay at History of the Republic of China 1912-1949. Crispus (talk)
    • I argued that the "Republic of China (1912-1949)" article should not exist because it would spread misconceptions like the one being made here. There were multiple competing regimes in the Republican era from 1912 to 1949, so there should be a general Republic of China article covering the entire historical period, with individual historical country template articles made for the individual regimes. "Nationalist China" refers to the ruling Nationalist Party or Kuomintang, which did not come into power until 1928. We cannot call the Beiyang Government "Nationalist China".--Jiang (talk) 10:35, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
  • Oppose because the nominator writers that "Sun Yat-sen, Beiyang, and Nanjing wouldn't have to be mentioned in the article at all." Clearly he doesn't know what the ROC is. (Nor the Byzantine empire, for that matter.) Srnec (talk) 22:06, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
Show me where Augustus is mentioned in the Byzantine Empire article. I probably know more about the Byzantines than any healthy person should. If you want dispute facts, then dispute facts. Crispus (talk) 22:22, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
Struck. I took issue with: "the Byzantines might have claimed to their dying day to be Romans, but in English, they are thought of as a distinct state, despite the government staying the same." In good English scholarship you will inevitably find out that the Byzantine empire was just a continuation of the one we all know as Roman. I also took issue with the use of "claimed", as if they weren't Romans just because we don't call them that.
My main concern is that this move will lead to Wikipedia presenting the Republic of China as if there were two of them. For what it's worth, I'm not currently very happy with how sharply we often distinguish Roman and Byzantine, but (i) that is much harder to iron out, because the time period is larger, and (ii) it matters less, because it has very little real world implication. Srnec (talk) 22:33, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
I guess as a skeptical westerner, I'm just a bit cautious of calling the Byzantines Romans...and Western Europeans (including English speakers) generally seem to have shared that skepticism, hence the popularity of the Hieronymus Wolf's name for Eastern Empire. Yes, there is a problem with splitting the Roman Empire into three articles, being the Roman Empire, Western Roman Empire, and Byzantine Empire, because it makes there seem like there's more of a political split between the different countries than there were. However, much like with Taiwan, even though people recognize the historical link that the Byzantines shared with the lands to the west that they once ruled, the fact is that by ruling over a smaller portion of land, the nations became very different places from where they started, in part because of their new geography. And I would argue in both places that they became different enough states, that they deserve their own articles, with more of a focus on the geography that they controlled after the fall from power. I'm not the happiest about the idea of having to leave off early Republican History if we move the article from Republic of China to Taiwan, but seeing as all those events took place in mainland China, and are covered in the China article, it makes sense that the article for the state which controls Taiwan should instead focus on the history of the geography that it currently controls, but of course containing a good amount of information on how the state came to be in the situation that it is in. Crispus (talk) 22:44, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

arbitrary break

  • Support - Per WP:COMMONNAME, the name of the government governing the island is Taiwan, not the Republic of China, despite the latter being the official name. Dough4872 00:35, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
  • Oppose There is already an article Taiwan that describes the island, people, and so forth. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. In addition, the historical ROC encompassed much territory outside of Taiwan, and ironically, did not include the island. Where would the historical stuff go? Ngchen (talk) 01:47, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
From the fact that the page is too long, and that there is already controversy regarding the historical ROC material is evidence enough that it is broke, and does need to be fixed. The historical stuff would stay in history articles, as well as be mentioned in China articles. As it is, much of the material mentioned in the history takes place in regions that the ROC hasn't controlled in decades, and neglects the history of Taiwan, the territory it currently does control. Now tell me again it ain't broke. Crispus (talk) 01:51, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
There is also an article History of Taiwan for the history of the island. As a political entity, the Republic of China was/is distinct. Any reader who reads past the first few sentences of either article will know where to turn already. Ngchen (talk) 02:04, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
The point isn't to let readers find out what article they are in after reading a few lines. The point is to have the article at the location where the reader expects it to be. 72.145.232.33 (talk) 02:17, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
And who are we to tell what readers want to read? We are not mind readers, and different people are looking for different things. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 02:47, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
We're not telling readers what they want to read. The simple fact is that Taiwan is the most common name. Period. But I doubt anybody looking for the island of Taiwan is going to be horribly confused by typing in Taiwan and getting the state, instead of the island. Crispus (talk) 03:06, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
Well then, how should we deal with the inconsistencies on various articles throughout the project? What is going to happen to Second Sino-Japanese War? What will we be linking to, and what will we write? Obviously the Japanese colony of Taiwan wasn't fighting the Empire of Japan, which would mean a redirect would make the article contradictory. What will happen to 100th Anniversary of the Republic of China? The ROC has only existed on Taiwan for 60 odd years, which would make the contents contradictory. What will happen to Chinese Civil War, Sino-Tibetan War, National Revolutionary Army, Kuomintang Islamic insurgency in China (1950–1958), Ma Clique, Kuomintang, Xikang, Suiyuan, Chiang Kai-shek, Double Ten Day, Xinhai Revolution, Wang Jingwei regime and 1992 Consensus? There are two Irelands, two Ossetias, two Koreas, two Macedonias and two Congos. I don't see how having Two Chinas makes Wikipedia any more inconsistent. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 06:16, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
  • Support per WP:COMMONAME. Unlike the other recent move I am not that passionate, but argument 2 is as persuasive as common name. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

Support per WP:COMMONAME. The ROC is commonly refered to as Taiwan. – Phoenix B 1of3 (talk) 02:49, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

  • Strong Oppose to giving it a name which is misleading. It wouldn't clarify the purpose of the article at all, it would be giving the article a name which does not reflect the subject of the article. Pi (Talk to me! ) 05:33, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
For comparison, Great Britain is an article about a landmass despite it being used commonly as a synonym for United Kingdom
Also, I think that the CIA world factbook can't be considered a reliable source for this. I don't doubt that it's reliable for many things but considering ROC is a country with which the US has no diplomatic relations due to its complex relationship with PRC it shouldn't be regarded as reliable for choosing ROC/Taiwan's name
On a further point, as for the problem of their being two Chinas, we have two Congos and it doesn't seem to be a problem
Agree. 119.237.249.129 (talk) 08:29, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
  • Support - The example of Australia and Australia (continent) is a good one I think. If we do this, then like the Australia (continent) article the Taiwan (island) article should be pretty short and focused squarely on the physical geography. The history, demographics, economy, culture, etc. should all be merged with the ROC article to create the new Taiwan article. Jiang made a good point earlier about needing a place where all of ROC history can be considered together, but I don't see why a History of Republic of China won't meet that need. Readin (talk) 07:50, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
  • Strongly oppose. This country has its pre-1945 history totally outside of and irrelevant to the island of Taiwan (and its associated islands and islets), and even after 1949 it still contains islands that are never considered part of Taiwan and neither geographically nor geologically relevant to Taiwan (namely, Kinmen, the Matsu Islands, Wuchiu, the Pratas Islands and Itu Aba, and Hainan till 1950, the Tachen Islands till 1955, as well as landlocked territories bordering northern Burma way into the 1950s). These territories aren't culturally, linguistically or historically relevant to Taiwan. You don't call the Channel Islands as part of Great Britain (no matter the island or the country). It's as wrong as renaming the articles for the Netherlands as Holland, the article for the Soviet Union as Russia, the article for the UK as England, or the article for Germany as Prussia.
    Furthermore, this proposal violates the Wikipedia jus cogens of neutral point of view (aka NPOV). Even if this proposal had a majority of support votes it cannot proceed, since NPOV is one of the most fundamental principles of Wikipedia. NPOV is non-derogable. 119.237.249.129 (talk) 08:29, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
This does not change the fact that the ROC is referred to as Taiwan by most English speaking sources, including all major Newspaper organizations. The name ROC just isn't the favored name. Crispus (talk) 11:22, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not a paper encyclopedia, and can afford to be more technical than your ordinary newspaper source that is written for the uninformed masses. I mean for Christ sake, most newspapers call Steve Jobs an innovator in regards to the early Apple computers such as the Apple II, even though he stole all his code from Wozniak in his early days. I've even read articles on the CNN website confusing nuclear fission for nuclear fusion, claiming that "fusion" had occurred during the Fukushima nuclear plant accident early this year. (If that had happened, then mankind won't have to drill for oil for the next 30,000 years.) I find it difficult to trust anything written by someone with a degree in journalism, and not a more technical degree, and you can call me elitist if you wish. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 12:21, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
English names often aren't technical, they simply are what they are. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 16:44, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
But in this case the English name "Taiwan" as applied to the ROC is a simplification. WhisperToMe (talk) 17:06, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
Please read WP:NPOV. 119.237.249.129 (talk) 04:24, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
  • Support - It is beyond any reasonable doubt that "Taiwan" is the common name of the country whose capital is Taipei. I'm also pretty sure that most of the people typing "Taiwan" will look for general information about the country (like Italy, Switzerland or every other country article) and not just about one island only. mgeo talk 14:42, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
    • But it's not that simple. "Taiwan" used to have its capital in Nanjing, and it didn't use to control Taiwan at all. At the time Taiwan was held by the Japanese. WhisperToMe (talk) 17:05, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
      • I know it's not simple. Actually the question here is how we name the (modern) country article and whatever the result of this RM there'll still be separate articles about the history of the ROC and Taiwan (island) and I don't think it will be really difficult to summarize the essential aspects of both in the Taiwan (country) article. This will allow the readers to find general information about the country (such as the capital city, the GDP...) without having to understand all the complexity of its history. mgeo talk 13:06, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
  • Very strong oppose - As said, Republic of China is a government which has remained as such. You must consider past AND present, AND consider what the Chinese consider to be NPOV.
  • Firstly using the name "Taiwan" is a POV in and of itself. English sources may not realize it, but when considering the Chinese point of views, using "Taiwan" to refer to the government may give the connotation Taiwan is not a part of China while the Ma government of the ROC and the PRC government insist that Taiwan is a part of China. There are "pro-Taiwan" people on the island that want to say "Taiwan is not a part of China" - The best thing to do is to use the official name.
  • Also in terms of which names to use you have to consider what the academic world things. People who study China and Chinese culture clearly disambiguate between Taiwan and ROC, even though the popular media doesn't do this. It's an important distinction because the ROC government is the government that Sun founded, and it is the government Chiang moved across the strait.
  • WhisperToMe (talk) 16:49, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

Insisting on the term Republic of China is inherently POV, as well. Even if it is the official name, to insist that we continue to call this region by this name would be the same as insisting that the Byzantine Empire be referred to as the "Roman Empire," as they formerly controlled these lands. By insisting on using the formal name, instead of the most common name, the modern nation is forcibly connected to its past, which ignores the fact that the majority of Taiwanese people have only a tentative connection to the mainland. Yes, Taiwan is slightly POV, but so is insisting on referring to the nation as the Republic of China. When both options are POV, the most common name should apply. Crispus (talk) 20:12, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

But as pointed out, the Republic of China isn't just Taiwan, it's history and constitution go beyond that. The former status quo (PRC and ROC at each other's respective official titles) remained relatively stable until that requested few months ago. Until there is a new constitution, it's likely the state will remain as the Republic of China for the indefinite future. Perhaps a closer look at WP:NC-TW would be helpful. --Tærkast (Discuss) 19:42, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

I'm fully aware of the naming conventions for China and Taiwan on Wikipedia. What I'm trying to do is change them. Yes, Taiwan does still have claims on the mainland. But they no longer exercise control there, hence why the rest of the world has started referring to them as Taiwan. Maintaining the official name, while helpful in some regards, also confuses the issue. Furthermore, Referring to one as "China" and the other as "Republic of China" seems to imply that the former is more legitimate. Crispus (talk) 20:12, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

It could imply that of course, as unfortunately, at the time the controversial move was taking place, it was felt that ROC-PRC article consistency was irrelevant to the issue at large. The ROC still exists, so does the PRC, there's no disputing that, and there's little dispute on the common names of those states. As I've said I can see the reasoning behind the requested move, but I wouldn't be comfortable in supporting it.--Tærkast (Discuss) 20:28, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
I'm glad to here that. I can understand the reasons to keep it the way it is, even if I disagree with them. It's nice to have someone who I can disagree with, without heated passions coming into play. Crispus (talk) 21:00, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
  • Support As the common format of country topics in use in wikipedia usually follow their most used and well-known name according to their geographical location in reality, such as Republic of Korea → South Korea, PRC → China, Republic of Ireland → Ireland. No doubt this article should also be treated the same as other cases. Besides, the name of "Taiwan" has been regarded to almost features of the current ROC both domestically and internationally, merely denoting "Republic of China" which likely gain much confusion if some readers haven't got general idea with the issues of Taiwan/ROC political status. Therefore I basically approve this removal proposal with those reasons. If some editers concern its historical aspect, the way changes to "Republic of China (Taiwan)" which i can personally accept as well because it reflects the actual state--ILVTW (talk) 22:02, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
The Republic of Ireland is not at Ireland, though. That issue is itself controversial, as those familiar with the Irish naming dispute should be aware. Also, the Irish situation is different, so that can't be applied too freely here, i.e. one state officially called "Ireland" whose legal description is "Republic of Ireland", but no two governments disputing its sovereignty.--Tærkast (Discuss) 22:12, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
  • Comment - I propose that, if this discussions leads to no consensus, then it automatically declares the previous move of "People's Republic of China" to "China" as a no-conensus too, leading to a move back to the old status quo.
  • WhisperToMe (talk) 22:20, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
I'd like that, because as far as I could see, there was no clear consensus to move the PRC to China, but the triumvirate of admins decided otherwise. I was also going to raise a similar question by asking if this leads to no consensus, would this impact the "China" article.--Tærkast (Discuss) 22:23, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
The panel argued that "(If a name is widely used in reliable sources (particularly those written in English), and is therefore likely to be well recognized by readers, it may be used even though some may regard it as biased (from Wikipedia:NPOV#Naming)." But POV/NPOV should consider all languages equally, and in the Sinosphere referring to the ROC as "Taiwan" or the PRC as "China" is seen as a strong POV and as not going by "an event commonly known as a POV-sounding name" - NPOV outweighs commonname WhisperToMe (talk) 22:26, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
Anyway, should I notify the triumvirate of admins that I would like to use this discussion to overrule their discussion? WhisperToMe (talk) 22:32, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
I disagree with that proposal. If you want to change China back to People's Republic of China, then you should make that a separate motion. That issue is far less controversial than this one. Crispus (talk) 22:38, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

another arbitrary break

I sincerely dispute that the primary topic of ROC is Taiwan. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 02:19, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
I think maybe you misunderstood my position. I meant that the primary topic of "Taiwan" is the country (not the island or a historical entity). I agree that ROC does not refer only to Taiwan. The mainland ROC regime is at least as important and that material that should appear in Republic of China (1912–1949), not here in an article on the contemporary state on Taiwan. That's the problem with the current title situation at Wikipedia. —  AjaxSmack  02:37, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
The problem with that article is that many editors are opposed to its split from the ROC article, as it implies that the ROC is not continuous, and that they are separate entities. One only has to see the talk page at the 1912-1949 article to see that there is quite a vocal dispute going on there. The 1912-1949 article was split only a few weeks ago, and there is already sigificant opposition to it, and calls for another merger. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 02:44, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
Well, Wikipedia should be optimised for readers, not editors. Which brings us back to WP:UCN (use common names). —  AjaxSmack  02:52, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
These should be able to provide adequate information regarding this issue. This is all-in-all a very complex and controversial issue, both on Wikipedia in the past, and politically in real life. Any decisions the Wikipedia community makes must be made with utmost care. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 01:44, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
Agreed. It is a complicated issue, and should be read. Fun reading IMHO, as well. Crispus (talk) 03:42, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
  • Strong oppose for the same reasons Benlisquare and WhisperToMe give, and the nominator's example of geographic comparisons is false, for obvious reasons. For Hawaii, Malta, and Orkney, names other than the whole are very commonly used to specify the main islands, i.e. "Big Island [of Hawaii]", "Malta Island", and "Mainland, Orkney". This is simply not the case for TW, and for us to move the page on the ROC to "Taiwan" would be to create confusion and to set bogus definitions, in other words dead wrong. Contrary to the nominator's concerns, (the quality of )article content is wholly irrelevant to a move discussion. If this proposed move is enacted, I hope Wiki pays a heavy price for its willingness to blindly sacrifice precision.  The Tartanator  02:13, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
I never said that article content quality should be the reason for the nomination. Not to rehash, but the problem is that this article is trying to cover two topics, namely 1. A regime that formerly controlled most of mainland China, and 2. The state which exists in modern day Taiwan. What they share in common political history they lack in Political system (autocracy v. democracy), population (both Han, but from different parts of the country), and geography (obviously). Taiwan is the most commonly used name to describe both the nation which is mostly on the island, and the island itself. However, if one wishes to just mean the island, the term Taiwan Island can be used (much like 台湾岛 is used in Chinese). So I'd have to disagree with you on that one. Crispus (talk) 03:42, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
"Can be used"...Of course they can be. However, the crux of my argument requires you to show that the terms "Taiwan Island" and "台湾岛" are commonly used to specify the island alone in the likes of "Big Island (of Hawaii)", "Malta Island" and "Mainland, Orkney".  The Tartanator  05:23, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
I don't have time now to look for figures to prove that I'm not unique in expecting Taiwan to be an article about the present day nation, given that it's clearly the primary use in English language media of the word "Taiwan" and almost all countries articles in Wikipedia are at their common name (e.g. Libya, United Kingdom, East Timor, Luxembourg, etc, etc), . I'd expect to find the article about the island at Taiwan (island) or Taiwan island, because that's how Wikipedia's naming works for things that aren't the primary topic for the name. Thryduulf (talk) 09:26, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
United Kingdom certainly isn't the common name. See here. Kauffner (talk) 16:47, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
  • Oppose for reasons that many others have stated — mainly, in that Republic of China and Taiwan are closely-related, but non-identical concepts. --Nlu (talk) 03:52, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
  • Strongly oppose - For the confusion it will increase, especially since China->PRC has already wreaked havoc on the legitimacy of Wikipedia and NPOV TruthAndHonestyFirst (talk) 04:38, 16 November 2011 (UTC)— TruthAndHonestyFirst (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
  • Comment: I really don't understand why IP comments are being blanked. Is there something that I am not aware of that I should know? I'm sure IPs have the right to make comments within this discussion as well; am I mistaken? -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 05:13, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
    • Maybe it's in order to prevent de facto sock puppets from being used, as someone with a user name could use either? Your guess is as good as mine (de facto seems like a good word to bring up in the midst of this discussion). Crispus (talk) 06:43, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
      • WP:PILLAR - "Wikipedia is free content that anyone can edit, use, modify, and distribute."
        WP:IP - "They may create talk pages in any talk namespace but may need to ask for help to create pages in some parts of the wiki."
        WP:ACCOUNT - "You do not have to log in to learn. Almost anyone can edit almost any article at any given time too, but be aware that the sources of edits are always publicly displayed."
        WP:TALK - "Be welcoming to newcomers"
        WP:BITE - "New members are prospective contributors and are therefore Wikipedia's most valuable resource. We must treat newcomers with kindness and patience"
        I don't see anything within policy that prohibits IPs from sharing their opinions and points within a discussion; rather I tend to see the opposite. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 07:12, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
Because the IPs other edits indicate pretty clearly it is an Instantnood sock, who always shows up to disrupt polls on Chinese subjects. The user immediately above (TruthAndHonestyFirst) is also likely a sock, I don't know whose. I'll just mark that one SPA. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)
  • Comment - Will there be a final solution to this problem in the near future? Because it seems at the moment, it is not at all possible to reach a situation whereby everyone would be satisified with the outcome, which is one of the reasons why I mentioned the former status quo worked reasonably well in respect of the situation. Should the PRC/ROC naming dispute be taken to more formal methods of dispute resolution ala Ireland, Burma/Myanmar? I'm asking this because whatever the outcome, it is likely that there will be more move requests, questions, etc to come --Tærkast (Discuss) 12:38, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
Yeah, ever since the PRC was changed to China, it's been a big mess. I'd agree that we either need to have it the old way at China and Republic of China, or changed it to China and Taiwan (the way I think is better). However, I think that changing China back should be discussed on the China page, not here. The problem is that the change from Republic of China to Taiwan is more controversial than PRC to China, given the more sensitive nature of the topic, and the convoluted history of the government. So it pretty much sticks us between a rock and a hard place. Crispus (talk) 14:10, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
  • Oppose. ROC and Taiwan are different concepts. ROC is the formal name of the state which governed Mainland China before 1945 and now governs Taiwan Island and two counties of Fujian Province. I know in the English world Taiwan is now usually used to refer to ROC, but it's a WP:BIAS and very misleading when we are talking about ROC's pre-1949 history. MtBell 15:53, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
  • Support - Per WP:COMMONAME. Taiwan is the common short name in the English language. Made in Taiwan appears on all its products. The World Factbook has its entry under Taiwan, as do the Encyclopædia Britannica and others. Other countries with a main island - e.g. Iceland - also have the same name for the main island and the country. It's a common thing. One could make a separate entry for Taiwan (island). The excessively political names -instead of common short names as with other countries and according to our policy- for China (resolved) and Taiwan are/were major weaknesses of Wikipedia. This discussion provides an excellent opportunity to resolve the second problem. gidonb (talk) 16:18, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
    • Comment: I argue that the nuanced political distinctions is one of Wikipedia's strengths. We can go beyond mere colloquialisms. Also keep in mind the "World Factbook" is a product of the United States Government, which is under the "One China Policy." WhisperToMe (talk) 21:58, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
      • Nuanced distinctions are certainly a strength of Wikipedia, if made at the appropriate place. The problem is: when it's barely relevant, there'll be editors who try to push it into the body of text. If it actually should be there, they will want it in the intro. If it should be in the intro, like this one, they want it in the title. Republic of China (Taiwan) is the long name, Taiwan is the short name. We can have the long name, Republic of China (Taiwan), on top of the info box and the short name as the title. It's the Wikipedia thing to do. Why front load the "nuanced political distinctions" into the title? The World Fact Book, the wording on Taiwanese export products and the Britannica all agree on the English-language short name. It is straightforward. I see a lot of politics in the reactions here versus sticking to our policies and doing things the Wikipedia way. For example, I gave three important sources for the use of Taiwan, you picked out one and immediately relate it to politics. This is symptomatic for our problems here. We should make our encyclopedia NPOV by adhering to our policies. gidonb (talk) 02:27, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
        • AFAIK it is all about politics. The "Republic of China" is a political entity. If we were talking about simply the island we would consult "Taiwan"
        • Speaking of which Britannica itself uses "Taiwan (self-governing island, Asia)" - But the description "self-governing island" is itself POV, isn't it? That's the Chen Shui-bian position.
        • WhisperToMe (talk) 04:34, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
    • >Made in Taiwan appears on all its products
      Nope. My LCD screen reads "Made in Taiwan, R.O.C.". In this case, Taiwan refers to Taiwan Province, a geopolitical subdivision of the ROC. See also my earlier post(s) at Talk:Senkaku Islands dispute/Archive 5#Lead section specifically dealing with the issue. It's a much more complicated issue than you are interpreting it to be - Pan-Green leaning companies use one branding, Pan-Blue leaning companies use the other. A hypothetical analogy would be if the Democrats supported calling the United States "America", and the Republicans supported calling the United States "Bmerica", then "Made in Bmerica" would appear on products created by Republican-leaning companies, whilst "Made in America" would appear on products created by Democrat-leaning companies. Furthermore, note that many products bear the branding "Made in Hong Kong", such as various confectionery products, even though Hong Kong is a political subdivision of the PRC with some degree of autonomy, and not a country. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 04:11, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
      • Also, I just realised that even the link to Made in Taiwan you give doesn't even support your argument. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 04:14, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
        • Belinsquare, I can't do much with your claims about apparel in your house. I can say that that Made in Taiwan is the common inscription and the name of our article. A product that reads "Made in Taiwan R. O. C." as we see in the picture in the article says the same as "Republic of China (Taiwan)", that is, it acknowledges that the concepts are interchangeable in English.
        • Both of you insist on politics, so lets face it head on. You seem concerned that the name Taiwan assists those who lean towards a different -more separate- status quo and seem to prefer a long, in English less common option that keeps Taiwan as Chinese as possible. Neither of these political directions is our concern. We just look for the common use name as directed by our policies. Maybe those who support a different status quo embraced a name for the same reasons. Maybe not. It doesn't matter. We don't forbid the common names of regions even where organizations commit atrocities to make their region independent. It would be 100% against our policies. Our concern is NPOV and choosing for a long, uncommon form because of political POV is just as much against our policies. gidonb (talk) 02:42, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
          • I'm not in my home city at the moment, but likewise here's a desklamp that reads "Made in Taiwan R.O.C." No, what you are saying is incorrect. "Made in Taiwan, ROC" is not the same as "Republic of China (Taiwan)". When you put x before y separated by a comma, you are separating the provincial or equivalent political subdivision from the sovereign state, akin to "Texas, United States", "Queensland, Australia" or "Hunan, China". In our example, "Taiwan" is the provincial subdivision, and "R.O.C." is the sovereign state. "Republic of China (Taiwan)" is the thing some people do so that those foreign to the whole Taiwan/ROC hubbub don't get confused, and is a completely different thing. They are not interchangeable. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 09:20, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
          • Re your rebuttal of Benlisquare: If Benlisquare shows proof that there is such an arrangement in terms of Taiwanese companies branding products, then that means the pro-rename side can't use that argument anymore.
          • "We don't forbid the common names of regions even where organizations commit atrocities to make their region independent." - I don't think that's a good analogy. It's not a matter of whether each side is morally right - it's a matter of judging the language used.
          • WhisperToMe (talk) 05:09, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
            • You two and others are welcome to raise any points you like! As things stand we have established that for the English language Taiwan is both the common name - as per consensus among professionally edited sources - and the NPOV name to use - as the opposition to the name is politically motivated. By the way, common name is enough to establish that Taiwan is the name that we should use according to our policies. gidonb (talk) 09:35, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
              • And "Made in Taiwan" isn't politically partisan? Have you thoroughly read what I have written? Ditching one side would be dropping the Pan-Blue POV, but supporting the Pan-Green POV. Ditching the other side would have the contrary. It isn't as simple as "hey guys, let's pick one of the two". -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 09:49, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
                • I do not want to rub it in, but one look at your photo is enough to establish that your argument is not relevant. I'll tell you something. Some 5 years ago I noticed that our Republic of China article was strangely linked to other Wikipedias. When the other language Wikipedia used ROC as the country it is was linked directly. If the other country used to Taiwan it was linked to the redirect. It may still be the practice. I tried to change this biased way of linking once or twice, but it was immediately changed back. I know that this is important for you, appreciate that you try to argue your POV, but it is as straightforward as you fear. Your POV and the other POV are not our concern. We cannot fail to use the common name because of your POV. We can only make a simple choice according to our policies. gidonb (talk) 10:22, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
                  • In other words, "I didn't hear that." Whether or not you're intentionally ignoring the point is none of my concern. The issue is that there is a POV issue, regardless of whether or not you want to hide it behind a vase or not. There is a disagreement on the issue, and that alone demonstrates that consensus is not leaning towards what you see to be the ideal solution. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 10:44, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
                    • You asked for it, so you'll have it. This weekend I'm not on Wikipedia (running out the door now) but I'll have time to think about how to answer this in a civilized manner. In the meantime I request a closing administrator (if at all) to take a fast peek at the photo and compare it with your argument. gidonb (talk) 00:19, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
  • I'm reluctantly opposing this; I agree the current title is unsatisfactory, and also agree that the page should be moved. I’m less convinced about the remedy.
I’d a say simply moving the article to “Taiwan” is a recipe for confusion.
But moving this to "Republic of China (Taiwan)" would be a step in the right direction; as it’s the official name for the place, would there be more agreement (or less room for objection) to a move to there, instead? Xyl 54 (talk) 17:52, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
There is going to be a refocused Republic of China (1912-1949) article. All the Political status of taiwan, Taiwan province issues are all post-1949 anyways. If your reason to vote oppose is because of concern that the pre-1949 stuff doesn't fit, not to worry. Benjwong (talk) 01:09, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
I thought they were going to merge Republic Of China and Republic Of China (1912-1949), so now their not going to, I guess. What I'm Trying To Say Though Is That The People's Republic Of China Should Not Have Been Renamed "China" Because It Put Us In This Situation. Tyle4ful (talk) 20|42, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
  • Comment: I'd wonder if 'Republic of China (Taiwan)' be an official name, or merely a self-styled description. It lacks statutory standing, for instance. 119.237.249.129 (talk) 09:21, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
    • It's not our place to interpret Taiwanese law, which I assume is written in Chinese anyway. However, the name "Republic of China" is still official in the sense that it is the preferred form used in The Republic of China Yearbook, which would seem to be the most comprehensive English-language publication of the Taiwanese government. I note that our infobox does not ask for "most official form", but rather "conventional long name." "Republic of China (Taiwan)" is the long name used on both on foreign ministry site and the government portal, and it is displayed prominently on top of both sites. Kauffner (talk) 12:13, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
  • Note also, the address given underneath in Government sites, which usually end in "Taiwan, R.O.C.", not "Taiwan, R.O.C. (Taiwan)". Government Information Office--Tærkast (Discuss) 12:25, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
  • Comment: I can’t work out what this is actually proposing, as there are several different interpretations from different people here. I’ll just lay out my entire opinion here: I would support this article being moved to Taiwan (country), Republic of China (1949–present) or any similarly unambiguous title (and the history section being rewritten accordingly). However, I oppose this article being called either “Republic of China” or “Taiwan”, both are ambiguous. “Republic of China” may always refer to the same political entity, but their history must be split into separate articles, it isn’t possible to have a reasonable article about both the current state and the one that existed before 1949. “Taiwan” could refer at the very least to either the island or the current country, an article about both isn’t a valid option.
    In short, whichever is better out of “Taiwan” or “Republic of China”, this article need a bracketed disambiguation to declare exactly what the article is about. MTC (talk) 10:06, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
    • The reason why the idea of splitting "ROC" into "pre" and "post" 1949 is disputed is because Chiang and his toadies simply moved the government across the straits. It's not like the ROC government was completely obliterated by the PRC, with elements reconstituting themselves on Taiwan. WhisperToMe (talk) 01:29, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
  • Oppose. The PRC article should be moved back too, and after that there should be an ArbCom ban in the same fashion as Ireland or Georgia. 147.8.46.215 (talk) 10:44, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
  • Comment Per what the IP said above, I think we need to stop requested moves (for now) and establish some formal discussion (maybe away from this or the China talkpages, instead at a project page or something else) perhaps something like Arbcom, Mediation etc, to gather community wide discussion on the issue of "China".--Tærkast (Discuss) 12:56, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
After we moved PRC -> China. I thought a vote like this would be much easier. So far this is not the case at all. For people who really edit these articles, having duplicate articles are bad. That is why we need to make a move somewhere. Benjwong (talk) 03:06, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
There was nothing easy about that move, nor this one, as is to be expected of a dispute of this nature, which is why I think a more formal course of resolution is in order.--Tærkast (Discuss) 11:57, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
  • Support. I certainly realise that the situation is 'messy' (to put it mildly) but I believe wp:commonname to be the most important part of the guidance, and Taiwan is far more commonly used than Republic of China. We are doing a disservice to our readers who would expect an article on the country not a geographical entity. This situation is causing a mess on related articles such as Economy of Taiwan (just read the first sentence there). Polequant (talk) 15:00, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
  • Oppose The subject of this article is the government, the Republic of China, which is at least unambiguous. It was the Republic of China in 1944, when it did not include Taiwan, and it still is. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 04:21, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
  • Comment I propose edit protection (or at least semi-protection) for this article until this dispute is settled. The article is really messy now in my opinion if one were to take a look at the earlier versions a few months back. With reference to the infobox, I don't see what is the point on having retrocession of Taiwan in 1945, the ROC's withdrawal from the UN in 1971 or even its first direct presidential election in 1996 affecting its "establishment", which by common-sense three major events - the Wuchang Uprising in 10/10/1911, the establishment of the republic's government on 01/01/1912 and the relocation to Taiwan on 07/12/1949. If that is the case, I could also put one of those events in the Singapore article since its first direct presidential election was in 1993. My personal opinion is that this dispute flared up due to the recent renaming/merging of the PRC article to "China", which is embroiled in its own dispute. Now this is giving so much trouble to many other related articles. Raiolu (talk) 07:52, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
No, either name could give just as much support. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 14:28, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
  • Oppose, there is no such country as "Taiwan". Taiwan is an isle. The ROC is much more than the island of Taiwan. It goes too far to apply WP:commonname here. This whole thing had made the article already a mess (with this stupid split up). Just keep the correct name. There is a country called ROC and it exists since 1911. Calling the country Taiwan is plain OR. There no country called "Taiwan". In addition it would be also a very political to create a country called Taiwan, which is simply not our duty. The move of PRC to China was already bad, but moving ROC to Taiwan would crack things completly up. StoneProphet (talk) 03:24, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
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