Talk:Taiping Heavenly Kingdom

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Banner accuracy

I have noticed the file used to illustrate the banner of the Taiping Heavenly Kingdom was renamed from File:Taiping Heavenly Kingdom Banner.svg to File:Dragon flag used by Du Wenxiu.svg. You can see the argument used for renaming here (I saved the Imgur links on Wayback Machine in case Imgur deletes the files). Du Wenxiu was the leader of the Panthay Rebellion so I don't think it should be used in an article about the Taiping Heavenly Kingdom. Thoughts? Yakutia2023 (talk) 18:55, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not entirely sure if it is associated with the Taiping or not. There's a source showing it hanging in a museum in Nanjing, however you can't really confirm whether it was used within the Heavenly Kingdom or not through a picture. Angryman120344 (talk) 11:45, 2 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note: the specific source that contradicts is [1], and the reference used to attach the dragon banner to Taiping appears to be the blog of a professor in chemistry. Aaron Liu (talk) 19:54, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In one of the Imgur links (https://imgur.com/a/66HwPWn) there is a flag attributed to the Taiping army. I found the same flag flag on File:Flag of Command of a Taiping Military Inspector (10151850385).jpg. Can this be claimed to be a Taiping Heavenly Kingdom flag? 47!Cyberia9 (talk) 16:15, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Nope. That would be original research. Remsense诉 17:07, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

an anthem for the rebellion?

really? TheFlagandAnthemGuy (talk) 08:53, 18 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This was a political state once and having an anthem doesn’t sound out of the ordinary. Any rebellion to establish a new state shouldn’t be wrong to have one. Aaron Liu (talk) 18:06, 18 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Still, how do we know? Do we have witnesses about such song being in use, even without official decrees? TheFlagandAnthemGuy (talk) 11:32, 29 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

there is a citation right after the anthem. the heavenly kingdom existed as a state in southern china for a while Remsense聊 11:34, 29 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Fair enough.

I would excercise some caution, maybe an extended note explaining it was an ode song performed at rallies and religious rituals; it doesn't seem a "state anthem" in modern sense as claimed by the author.

It can stay though. TheFlagandAnthemGuy (talk) 15:19, 30 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I mean, neither that nor the Qing dynasty were modern states and that fulfills the definition of national anthem. Aaron Liu (talk) 15:23, 30 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

And this is why I suggest caution. TheFlagandAnthemGuy (talk) 11:20, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

bordering on tangential but both were absolutely modern states in the sense that matters here: both existed as highly sophisticated bureaucratic states in the 19th century Remsense聊 15:39, 30 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I’m pretty sure even Ming was highly sophisticated and bureaucratic so that’s not a criteria for modern, but I agree that this is a bit too tangential Aaron Liu (talk) 17:18, 30 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Aaron Liu, see, I would consider Ming to be an archetypal example of an early modern state. — Remsense聊 17:48, 30 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Huh, interesting, so the definition of modern is much longer than I thought. It is definitely a modern anthem then. Aaron Liu (talk) 18:00, 30 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I am afraid there is some "lost in translation" in my use of "modern", which should be read as "current", "actual" and "today" TheFlagandAnthemGuy (talk) 11:21, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

TheFlagandAnthemGuy, Just making sure I didn't misread the source the first time I looked at it, I went back and found the quote:

Among the hymns Hong learned was “Old Hundred,” which he later used, with a new text, as the state hymn of the Heavenly Kingdom. Its new title was “Tianchao zanmei ge” [Ode praising the Heavenly Kingdom]. This ode was sung in all rituals and rallies, whose major ingredients Hong had also borrowed from Protestant rituals.* Many other hymns were also created specifically for these occasions; a few of their texts are still extant.

As the anthem guy, what else do you think a national anthem has to be about other than rally and ritual? That's the domain of anthems.— Remsense聊 15:57, 30 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The doubt is:

when he writes about "being used as the state hymn" how much is he projecting his current sentiment towards to the past? Let us not forget a protestant missionary is involved, which does not help.

It would be interesting taking the further step and looking at the sources he brings on the table.

I am careful because I found more and more "quasi-anthem" dated to XIX century that some superficial publication treated as current "national anthem" TheFlagandAnthemGuy (talk) 11:19, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

TheFlagandAnthemGuy, it would be nice to have another source. I'll drop an ^{[additional citation(s) needed]} on it. — Remsense聊 14:29, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

yes, I agree TheFlagandAnthemGuy (talk) 16:59, 3 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]