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Requested move 2 February 2019

[edit]
The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus to move the page at this time, per the discussion below. Dekimasuよ! 03:46, 9 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

TVA → TVA (disambiguation)
TVA → primary redirect to Tennessee Valley Authority – Judging from the pageview stats, the Tennessee Valley Authority appears to be the primary topic for "TVA" by a large enough margin to warrant a primary redirect. Bneu2013 (talk) 01:01, 2 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Bneu2013 (talk) 01:01, 2 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Survey

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  • Oppose - I have a very high threshold for displacing two- and three-letter acronym disambiguation pages because I feel we serve readers better with the DAB at primary, and serve future editors better by compelling current editors to not be lazy by using acronym redirects. -- Netoholic @ 02:24, 2 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per PRIMARYTOPIC/PRIMARYREDIRECT. All of the other uses of TVA are obscure. We serve our readers best by taking all who search with TVA directly to this article since it’s what the vast majority will be seeking. —В²C ☎ 08:21, 2 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • @Born2cycle: - I think this represents a flawed understanding of how exactly readers get to our articles. In reality, most people get here via search engines, and those engines largely don't care about (even to the point of intentionally ignoring) our page titles. They instead rely on keywords and context. Think about this: If your point were true, then certainly the page views for TVA whould be some significant proportion of Tennessee Valley Authority's, since you think we're not taking readers directly to the article. But in reality, "TVA" only gets about 3% of the views of that article. Now, even if it were the case that ALL of that 3% were actually seeking this article, that hardly seems like an inconvenience, and I think you'd have to cite some strong evidence of even that many. I would argue that almost all of that 3% are actually coming to the DAB as the navigation aid its intended to be. But if we were to make this move, the we absolutely inconvenience 100% of all the other seekers by making them go to an article they definitely aren't interested in, and then making them use a hatnote to get to the DAB. Fundamentally, a WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT isn't for the readers... its for the editors who would make use of such a term very often and don't want to use piped links. So what we really should be considering is whether we want current editors to use such a redirect often or if we'd rather they link directly. I think two- and three-letter acronyms are very easily made ambiguous in the future as new topics are created, so future editors (who will have to fix those indirect links) would prefer we just use direct links from the start. -- Netoholic @ 16:23, 2 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
      • I'm fully aware of all that. No matter how many get here via other means that are out of our control, our concern is how people using WP search get to our articles, because that is within our control. And that's the basis for WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. We also presume that the distribution of articles likely to be sought is about the same for people searching externally or internally. So maybe only 3% are of TVA searchers are using WP internal search, but most of them, we presume, at about the distribution indicated by page views, want the Tennessee Valley Authority. That's really all we've got to work with. The only real alternative is to practically ignore PRIMARYTOPIC altogether. --В²C ☎ 21:15, 2 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose To anyone in Europe "TVA" means Taxe à la valeur ajoutée; leaving aside this given the wide spread of 3-letter acronyms, while not the intention the result would be a clearly negative move against readers worldwide. In ictu oculi (talk) 14:08, 2 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Isn’t there a trick for counting how many visitors to this DAB then follow which link? If not many wanting Tennessee Valley Authority get there via TVA, then it may not be worth the negative impact of the new hatnote that would be required at the top of Tennessee Valley Authority. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:37, 3 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Don't know if this is the trick you mean, but creating a redirect like TVA (Tennessee Valley Authority) → Tennessee Valley Authority and put that on the disambiguation page, let time pass, and then see the page hits on the redirect. Possibly with similar new redirects for some or all of other entries. -- JHunterJ (talk) 14:59, 8 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes, that sounds like it. Get some data to inform the discussion. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:11, 8 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose – Wikipedia page views are not an appropriate yardstick to assess primary topic status. Even if they were, there is no strongly dominant topic in the stats provided. Except some very well-known entities such as FBI or CIA, TLAs rarely benefit from a PT treatment. — JFG talk 22:29, 8 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • JFG How are page views not appropriate for determing the primary topic? One of the guidelines is "A topic is primary for a term with respect to usage if it is highly likely—much more likely than any other single topic, and more likely than all the other topics combined—to be the topic sought when a reader searches for that term." The pageview statistics, as well search results, confirm that people who search "TVA" are most likely to be searching for "Tennessee Valley Authority". How is this any different, than, say NFL, NBA, MLB, NHL, NRA, EPA, DHS, LLC, etc? Bneu2013 (talk) 22:55, 8 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • (edit conflict) JFG, the question isn't whether a TLA benefits from PT treatment, but whether users benefit from PT treatment of a TLA. Why should TLAs be treated differently from other terms that have primary topics? After all, PT is written with respect to terms, and TLAs are terms. If most users searching with a given TLA are seeking a particular topic, then that topic is the primary topic for that TLA, by definition. Why wouldn't users benefit from treating the TLA accordingly? --В²C ☎ 22:56, 8 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 16 May 2021

[edit]
The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Moved as proposed. After much-extended time for discussion, consensus is narrow, but there is a well-argued consensus in favor of the proposed move. BD2412 T 03:19, 12 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

TVA → TVA (disambiguation) – Acronym is most suitable for primary redirect of top viewed article with this acronym Tennessee Valley Authority, as the company logo and weblink involves it rather than the full name, and the company is synonymous with the acronym in history publications and pop culture such as the film 'O Brother, Where Art Thou?' and in the country music scene including Alabama and the Drive-By Truckers.[1][2] Also see claims made by first move attempt supporter, and notice that the Tennessee Valley Authority is almost consistently the top article in views with this acronym, excluding Time Variance Authority, which appears to surpass the Tennessee Valley Authority due to its appearance in recent Marvel Cinematic Universe productions, which will probably see a temporary increase over the Tennessee Valley Authority article due to appearance in these movies, thus making any claim that the Time Variance Authority will be a possible counterargument in keeping the TVA page as the disambiguation page rather than the Tennessee Valley Authority primary redirect redundant.

References

  1. ^ "Tennessee Valley Authority". Tennessee Encyclopedia.
  2. ^ "Valley of the Dams". U.S. National Archives.

– AppalachianCentrist (talk) 23:08, 16 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support per nom and WP:COMMONNAME. The TVA is well known historically and has long-term significance. Randy Kryn (talk) 00:33, 17 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - Just because one option may have the most views doesn't mean that it has more than all others combined per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC nor does it override significance considerations. OP even admits that there is/will likely be a skewing of results for the foreseeable future due to the MCU show, so this is not the time to make an WP:ASTONISHing change. Long-term significance is national-level at best (more likely regional), not WP:GLOBAL. Also, abbreviations are a special case, and unless one item is vastly more significant or used, I have a very high bar to convince me that any TLA should be anything but a disambiguation page, and this doesn't meet the threshold. -- Netoholic @ 03:13, 17 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per Netoholic. 162 etc. (talk) 03:21, 17 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per nomination and Randy Kryn. A WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT if there ever was one. Comparable to such unquestioned primary redirects as FBI or CIA [since it likewise dates back to the New Deal, WPA (Works Progress Administration) is also ripe for a similar RM]. As has been already pointed out by one of the final participants in the previous RM (Talk:TVA#Requested move 2 February 2019, above), "[H]ow is this any different, than, say NFL, NBA, MLB, NHL, NRA, EPA, DHS, LLC, etc?". —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 04:15, 17 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • How is it different? By less significance and fewer page views by orders of magnitude. Your examples are cherry-picking. For every TLA that is a primary redirect, I can cite 10 that are dab pages. Each situation is different and must stand on its own merits when looking at how many articles share a particular TLA. -- Netoholic @ 09:00, 17 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      Of course those examples are cherry picking and of course for every TLA that is a primary redirect there will be at least a hundred that are not. Each situation is indeed different and must indeed stand on its own merits and TVA is indeed one of those exceptional TLAs that merits acceptance into the rarefied club of primary redirects. AppalachianCentrist and Bneu2013 (the nominator in the previous RM) have presented the convincing evidence. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 16:03, 17 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose not convinced there is a WP:PRIMARYTOPIC by long-term significance.--Ortizesp (talk) 15:01, 17 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - per nominator and WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT. Convinced there is a primary topic per pageview statistics and global influence. One of the objections in the past was the French translation of value-added tax (VAT); however, there does not appear to be any evidence that TVA is a commonly used abbreviation for this in the English-speaking world. And I think it is wp:TOOSOON to determine whether or not the Time Variance Authority will supercede as the primary topic. Bneu2013 (talk) 16:47, 17 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - Same reasoning as above - TVA as an acronym has been used for more than 90 years to refer the Tennessee Valley Authority. Time Variance Authority could or could not eventually be a short term fad sparked by MCU "fanboys". Making decisions about what is the primary redirect based upon short term info is a bad way to do business. Ckruschke (talk) 18:14, 17 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment – Not participating in the discussion, I just think it would make sense to ping the participants of the previous discussion to weigh in. @Born2cycle, In ictu oculi, SmokeyJoe, JHunterJ, and JFG:. Paintspot Infez (talk) 22:26, 17 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. No PrimaryTopic. Tennessee Valley Authority is obviously only a local interest, and the Marvel thing definitely confuses the case. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 22:40, 17 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • @SmokeyJoe: - would you mind elaborating on what you mean by "only a local interest"? Thanks. Bneu2013 (talk) 03:16, 18 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      • From an international perspective, Tennessee Valley is a local matter, certainly not of international significance. Several items on the DAB page are international. The MARVEL thing is international, and popular, and very likely long term popular. As much as I prefer to down weight commercial topics, which includes movies, the MARVEL thing has a 35 year history and is kind of big. As big as the Tennessee Valley Authority is, I think it is pretty obvious that it will be astonishing to get that for most of the world, even for most of the US. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 03:30, 18 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • @SmokeyJoe: - I think you're underestimating the impact the Tennessee Valley Authority had, it has been around for nearly 90 years and has been cited by academic journals and history publications regarding its influence on a global scale in terms of economic development and energy in the modern world. It also been the highlight of international news stories such as the Kingston Fossil Plant coal fly ash slurry spill and the Supreme Court case 'Tennessee Valley Authority v. Hill', which was landmark case on environmental policy. So your point that it is a local matter is greatly invalid. Regarding the Time Variance Authority, it is a 'fictional' organization, and it is also seen more popularity because of its impact in the 'Loki' television series, but shows lose their popularity overtime and new Marvel shows will emerge that will take away from the one regarding the Time Variance Authority. The show will not see long-term popularity because there will always be something new too replace it. The Tennessee Valley Authority has been around much longer than the fictitious group, and it has held a much bigger impact in terms of a global scale than the Time Variance Authority. --AppalachianCentrist (talk) 16:04, 18 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. I was going to Support but compared page views with the MARVEL usage and was shocked to see they’re about the same. One could argue historical significance, but I reject that criteria per WP:IAR. Stunningly, no PT. —В²C ☎ 05:06, 18 May 2021 (UTC) see new !vote below --В²C ☎ 17:10, 18 May 2021 (UTC).[reply]
  • Oppose Time Variance Authority gets more views (22,548) than Tennessee Valley Authority (15,823)[[1]] and the DAB pages lists some items called "TAV" rather than just acronyms. Crouch, Swale (talk) 11:28, 18 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • @Crouch, Swale: - Time Variance Authority has only received more views recently due to its involvement in a MCU television series, television shows will end operations eventually and decrease in popularity since it is typically temporarily, plus it is also a fictitious organization. The Tennessee Valley Authority has been in existence for nearly 90 years and has been influential on a global scale on terms of energy and economic development, one of the sources I cited in another reply is a academic journal article that states from government officials the acronym is synonymous with the Tennessee Valley Authority because of its global influence on economic development and energy in the modern world. Also take for reference the landmark environmental Supreme Court case 'Tennessee Valley Authority v. Hill'. --AppalachianCentrist (talk) 16:04, 18 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Basing page hits at a point when the interest in the Time Variance Authority is probably at its zenith is extremely short-sighted and is essentially putting your finger on the scale of the argument. The Time Variance Authority as an entity has been around for over 50 yrs and garnered essentially no interest until the Loki series was released. As the show progresses, interest in the organization will probably fall similar to the spikes and fall in interest in pages on famous people when they die. Arguing that the Time Variance Authority will stay in the public consciousness in a historically similar manner to the Tennessee Valley Authority is non-NPOV and crystal balling. Ckruschke (talk) 16:55, 18 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      • Indeed. Look at the page views over a longer time span. Until a few months ago the MARVEL thing usually got under ten hits a day while the real agency consistently gets on the order of 1,000 a day. --В²C ☎ 17:20, 18 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
        • TVA (Canadian TV network) also gets 1,031 views so even ignoring the Marval meaning I don't see a primary topic. I'd also point out regarding Born2cycle's point that even if most readers are either looking for Tennessee Valley Authority or the Marval that this move would require hatnotes at Tennessee Valley Authority and I don't think that's the case anyway given the Canadian TV network's name is "TVA" while for Tennessee Valley Authority its only an acronym. Crouch, Swale (talk) 19:26, 18 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
          • What? The Canadian TVA gets more like 50 a day. There is no issue with using "TVA redirects here; for the xxx see yyy" hatnotes. --В²C ☎ 21:49, 18 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
            • But its called "TVA" while "TVA" for "Tennessee Valley Authority" is only an abbreviation, leaving aside all the other uses we need to ask how often "Tennessee Valley Authority" is called "TVA". Crouch, Swale (talk) 16:17, 19 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
              • The question is not how often "Tennessee Valley Authority" is called “TVA” but how likely someone searching for it will use “TVA” (close to 100% I bet). And given that it regularly gets 20x the hits of the Canadian TVA, it’s practically a moot point. —В²C ☎ 16:41, 19 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per WP:IAR. By page views there is no primary topic here. By historical significance it's definitely Tennessee Valley Authority. But I just want to make it work well for our readers. If we leave the dab page at TVA then everyone searching with "TVA" is taken to the dab page and must look for their desired article listed there and click again. But if it redirects to Tennessee Valley Authority then about half the searchers will be taken to their desired article, about half will need one more click on the hatnote link to Time Variance Authority, and a small minority will need to click twice more: first on a hatnote link to get to the dab page, then once more on the link to their desired page. But far more will be better off (no extra clicks) than if we leave the dab page at TVA. So I say we WP:IAR the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC technicalities for the good of the encyclopedia; have everyone searching with "TVA" be taken to Tennessee Valley Authority so about half are better off, about half are no worse off (one extra click to get to Time Variance Authority either way), and a tiny fraction are one extra click worse off. Or, if you prefer, call likelihood a wash and give historical significance extra weight favoring a historically significant agency over a fictional entity. Either way, you have to support. --В²C ☎ 17:10, 18 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Upon further consideration I think the proposal is supported by PRIMARYREDIRECT/PRIMARYTOPIC after all. The high page view count at the MARVEL article is all very recent and likely to dissipate over time, while the Tennessee Valley Authority high page view count is stable for the foreseeable future. —В²C ☎ 17:06, 19 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. According to massviews ([2]) since 2015 Tennessee Valley Authority has had 2.2 million views which dwarfs the runner up (Transverse abdominal muscle at 678,000) and is more than everything else combined, satisfying the criterion for primary topic by usage. Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 19:21, 18 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per nom. Hardly "local interest". I'm British and I would think of the Tennessee Valley Authority first and foremost. Extremely notable organisation in history. -- Necrothesp (talk) 00:03, 22 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support In terms of long term significance this seems to be the strong primary. In terms of usage, while page views for the Marvel institution make that fuzzier, this is one of those cases where looking at a wider time range makes very clear that recentism is at play.--Yaksar (let's chat) 21:50, 24 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. By any reasonable standard, the primary topic for TVA is the Tennessee Valley Authority. -- Calidum 17:28, 25 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - educational significance gets this one Red Slash 23:05, 25 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
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