Talk:Tŷ Pawb

Wales Low‑importance

	Wales portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Wales, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Wales on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.WalesWikipedia:WikiProject WalesTemplate:WikiProject WalesWales
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Arts

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Arts, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Arts on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.ArtsWikipedia:WikiProject ArtsTemplate:WikiProject ArtsWikiProject Arts

Vegetable Market

Ty Pawb is not on the site of the old Vegetable market. The vegetable Market had its entrance on Queen Street not Chester street. The vegetable market remained open until the People's market was built. 92.30.169.30 (talk) 07:35, 7 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Wrexham.com stated such. However, understand it is more located on what is now Tŷ Henblas, so if I create that article will slowly move details on the Veg market to there, if sources support such. The old veg market did however extend over quite an area.

But such detail is cited. Is there a source stating it isn't on Tŷ Pawb to override it? Dank Jae 09:23, 7 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I went to Vegetable market every week from 1954 until the 1980s and worked in the CAB office from 1985 to 1988. The Citizens Advice Bureau was located at the Queens Street Entrance. Also visited Doug Mills Bookshop in Vegetable market and People's market- the Vegetable Market was not closed until People's market was built. I was Clerk to Caia Park Community Council (1985-1993) and Joe Wilson (MEP) was a member of that Council for a time he with John Marek MP opened the People Market - the site had been derelict for a number of years because various plans failed to materialise - the most that happened was at one point scaffolding was erected for work that never took place - and Joe Wilson at one point produced a "Not The Mayor's Calendar" which had a picture of the site under the heading of Mature Scaffold trees or something like that. The problem here are not so much sources but Wrexham County Borough Council's disrespect to the proud history of Wrexham Town - which is more than the a benefactor of an American University and a Hanging Judge. 89.243.59.209 (talk) 14:54, 7 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes TY Pawb "the cultural hub" of Wrexham is within the Caia Park Community Boundaries 89.243.59.209 (talk) 14:59, 7 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Please provide sources. Yes the People’s Market wasn’t on the exact same site as the Vegetable Market, but Wrexham.com words it like it was. Unless it can be tweaked to "People’s Market replaced the nearby Vegetable Market" rather than describe it to be on the same site? Dank Jae 16:55, 7 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

ONce again Wrexham demeaned by some self important bunch of windbags. 80.46.220.126 (talk) 03:18, 10 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The importance scale is based on the hierarchy of articles, things like Welsh cuisine and Music of Wales are higher being linked to more articles, followed by Wrexham, and very local and specific things are given lower importance to the project. It does not reflect its personal importance. Dank Jae 10:57, 10 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The space between the Vegetable Market Chester Street was where the old fire station was located and on corner of Lampit Street & Chester Street The Rose and crown Pub.Then it was a car park for a time. 89.243.59.209 (talk) 15:39, 7 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Do you have any sources for this, aside your own research. Yes, I know about Rose and Crown, added it to Chester Street, Wrexham.

Thanks for the tips, it will assist with finding sources, however I cannot add your words until a source is found. Dank Jae 16:50, 7 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You need to find records of Wrexham Maelor Borough Council and the original Wrexham Borough Council. and where exactly is your source that made you think the people's market was built on the site of the old Vegetable Market - and where did that source refer to to make such a misleading version of Wrexham History. Don't bother with the present County borough they have neglected to maintain the proud history of Wrexham Town and the Wrexham Borough Council 1857 to 1974. The problem with personal memories from the 1950s to present I do not store them in Libraries and Museums - there are more people in Wrexham who remember Vegetable Market entrance on Queens Street than one or possibly two publications that have got it wrong. I worked for CAB when its office was at the entrance of the Vegetable market 1985-1987 and I did not need a source to confirm where it was- I did not go to an empty site on corner of Chester Street that's for sure - but if you want to continue with the false information that,s up to do- sometimes the only easily source lie within the realm of oral history - then if someone writes its down then it becomes a source. My problem is I have not written a book. Good luck with your research. 80.46.220.126 (talk) 02:18, 10 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I linked to the Wrexham.com source that states such.

I plan to make Tŷ Henblas/Henblas Street, Wrexham so hopefully then I can find a source that makes all this clearer.

While I won’t accuse the council of anything, they have removed a lot of the history stuff from their website, making research harder.

Wikipedia needs links to sources, not just hearsay no matter if it is true or not as there isn’t any physical proof of your claims without a source. Dank Jae 11:00, 10 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I Just realised it there was a book about Wrexham that had every single detail wrong about the town it it would be legitimate for you to cite it as a Source right. Thought I was helping what a complete waste of time that was!!!!! Try to put the record straight and Wiki pees on ya - Right!- no wrong I don't have a source- Academia Academia so much potential but often such a waste Doubt if you will hear from me again. Will have to create a big stink with the Council for dis-repecting the proud History of Wrexham by totally ignoring it!!! 80.46.220.126 (talk) 03:12, 10 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If a source is incorrect, it would be more helpful to point a source that is correct, no?

I’ll take any comments if there are any errors, and try and find sources to correct them, but in absence of any sources so far, the current wording stands. Dank Jae 11:02, 10 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If a source is incorrect it is INCORRECT and I note clicking the link for source you provide there's no reference to the Vegetable market whatsoever. So which authoritative source is there about site of Vegetable Market. If Someone has published a poorly research statement about something and there are no other sources immediately available, the poorly researched source is classified as valid even if it is totally wrong - Frustratingly Wrexham County Borough Council are too lazy to dig into records in their possession and have instead relied on the false information from your Wikipedia entry and put it on large display board giving a history of Wrexham Markets as a part of the reopening of the Butchers Market after its refurbishment. So FALSE information is ok by you. What utter nonsense -

Ty Pawb is not on the same site as the old Vegetable Market on that I am 12 million percent positively absolutely certain. So if you feel its ok to display false information (sourced or otherwise) then you do the history of Wrexham a grave dis-service. The Vegetable Market was on the site where the newish mainly empty Shops are on Henblas Street are, can't remember the name of store there now but it was originally British Home Stores that is near where the Queen Street entrance to the market was located.

Source or no source histories tend to get written by first speaking to people. A good example of that is Paul Oliver's books on the History of the Blues (following from the work of the Hammonds and others. Actually talking to people to obtain information that had not seen the light of day up until that point. So Paul Oliver on an entry to Wikileaks can be quoted as a source, but not none of the hundreds of people he interviewed would be able to make an acceptable entry. 80.46.220.126 (talk) 12:30, 10 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia follows sources not necessarily the truth, WP:NOTTRUTH, unless a source corrects it.

The Wrexham.com source I linked states:

The People’s Market is the newest of Wrexham’s indoor markets having been built in 1992 as part of the redevelopment of the town. It was originally home to the Vegetable Market which was established in 1898, however the building along with its mock Tudor facade was demolished in 1990 to make way for the People’s Market.

If the council is too lazy, then that is on them.

Please tone down with long comments and personalised tone, is there any small wording changes that would work?

Such as

The site can trace its heritage to the former Vegetable Market

or

The People’s Market replaced the old Vegetable Market

Reducing info taken from the source but not adding anything contradictory? Dank Jae 14:41, 10 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

And their source was? Wrexham.com are a contemporary News outlet who who have not been around that long -what checks did they make on the accuracy of a history. Actually none because it gathers most of its content from people who contact them using various internet and social media platforms - their "History" is usually "off the hoof", which means well but is put together to inform a "News" story. I tried to correct one of their stories once but at the time by anti virus and various anti malware programs deemed their site unsafe and I did not pursue it.

OK Using that source still misinforms perhaps say in notes -more research is required to verify the accuracy of Wrexham.com article and include it as a quote from Wrexham.com instead of as a part of the narrative you have put some effort into to provide relevant information on the Ty Pawb site. As you are aware I would rather you did not mention the Vegetable market at all in relation to the site of Ty Pawb and just say The people's Market was built to replace the Vegetable market in the same manner you would would say the Police HQ in Llay was built to replace the one in Wrexham (pic of tower being demolished etc) As I have made very clear I feel very strongly about this. With Wrexham.com being a news outlet they might be reluctant to re consider their version of the "story" I shudder to think of one source Wrexham .com might have obtained information from -if true then there should be one almighty public row. Now i am over thinking it - at my age would not have the stamina for a Public row. can you give me a direct link to that Wrexham .com article. Thanks 80.45.95.131 (talk) 18:01, 10 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

All I am asking is one source if you have it. If not, then this discussion concludes until I find one. Dank Jae 18:43, 10 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The link is in my first reply and the article itself. Dank Jae 18:43, 10 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

OK I have had my say promote false history if thats your mission Bye!!! I will send emails to everyone I know warning them of the FALSE information you justify in peddling because it has a source and so far no one has written anything about The Vegetable Market since 2011. I have felt passionate about this issue- Bye to you one of the NEVER WRONG BRIGADE and puveyor of false information SHAME ON YOU !!!!!! Delete the Vegetable Market reference at once FULL STOP 80.45.95.131 (talk) 20:44, 10 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I’ve change the wording to The market replaced Wrexham’s Vegetable Market, anything else? While the Wrexham.com source may have gotten the connection to the Veg Market wrong seems fine in everything else. Dank Jae 05:52, 11 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A number of pictures of Veg Market entrance on Queen Street through its history here- as well as photographic record of nearly all streets in Wrexham Town Centre over the years:

https://johnmills.wales/wrexham-a-pictorial-history/

Firefox browser will not access site. I have used Vivaldi and Opera 78.150.166.39 (talk) 09:57, 19 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Here it is

“It was recommended, on the motion of Alder- man Samuel, seconded by Councillor Bevan, that the borough surveyor prepare and submit to this Committee a plan of a cartway to the Fruit and Vegetable Market from Queen-street. “ Wrexham Advertiser Saturday June 1900

https://newspapers.library.wales/view/4594370/4594376/68/Wrexham%2BOR%2BVegetable%2BOR%2BMarkets%2BOR%2B1898

evidence that Vegetable Market was on Queens Street not Chester Street 80.45.95.131 (talk) 01:42, 11 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Finally something, thanks. Not exactly connected to this article, but will consider. Definitely helpful for a Vegetable Market article however. Diolch. Dank Jae 05:54, 11 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Problem with sources for markets is they are addresses in themselves and street names are rarely mentioned. 92.30.168.78 (talk) 11:24, 11 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]