Talk:Swedish-speaking population of Finland/Archive 1

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Finland-Swedes in the US

We are Swedish-speaking Finns, that is to say, descendents of Finnish immigrants who spoke Swedish to the USA, specifically the West Coast. Our spare time goes to volunteer for the Swedish Finn Historical Society, which is preserving the traces of Swedish Finnish emigrant culture around the world. SFHS began in Seattle WA and now has members from Australia to Alaska, Japan to Finland. The main reason for that is the informative Quarterly. You can read some of the articles on their web page. Just search Swedish Finn Historical Society. And their Finlander list is also an interesting Talk Page, in which many folks find or offer help locating info on family trees in Swedish Finland. Gott nytt År och Lycka till! D and S

I am one, but in english, I would prefer talking about us as the "finnish-swedish" and not the 'finlandssvensks'. Is there anyone who knows the english language better to tells us which one is the better one? --Tbackstr

I am one too. I think Swedish speaking Finns would be the best wording to use. --P0ppe

I don't quite agree. I'm a 'Finlandssvensk' too and I don't think the term 'Swedish speaking Finn' is quite the same thing. I have some good friends who speak excellent Swedish. Clearly they are 'Swedish speaking Finns' but they are not 'Finland-Swedes'/'Finlandssvenskar'.

In my vocabulary a Finlander (finländare) is basically an inhabitant in Finland, mostly either a Swedish speaking (finlandssvensk) or a Finnish speaker. Since I'm a "finlandssvensk" and not a "finlandsfinsk/finne" it is awkward to be called "finne" or Finn. I use the term Swedish-Finn to describe the Swedish speaking finlandssvensk in the same linguistic way as the constructions anglo american, afro american etc. I agree that all the name variants used all have their weaknesses, but Finlander and Swedish-Finn feels imho as being the "most suitable and descriptive".

I don't like to have to form complete sentances in order to get the message through. /H.

You need to think this in english... I think its best that finnish are called finnish, swedish are called swedish and finlands swedish are called finlands swedish. If you want to go making up new words go with Finnswedes and leave Swedefinns to finnish minority of sweden. (Notice the order of parental country and language minority in there.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.156.119.203 (talk) 20:24, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Are the Finland-Swedes an ethnic minority?

Shouldn't we then rename this page to, uh, something? "Swedish speaking Finns"? "Finnish-Swedish"? I think we should have headers in english in an encyclopedia in english. Anyway, for those not familiar with the topic, we are speaking about both the Swedish speaking people in Finland and the local variant of Swedish spoken in Finland. The swedish term "finlandssvensk" is in a word by word translation "a finnish Swede" and "finlandssvenska" is the corresponding language. Perhapse we should have a page for both. --Tbackstr

I think "Finnish-Swedish" is not as close a translation as "Finland-Swede(s)" (for the people; finlanddsvensk(ar)) and "Finland-Swedish" (for the language; finlandssvenska), but I definately agree that using "Finlandssvensk" in an English article [other than in the introductory definiton] is wholly inaccurate and inconsistent with Wikipedia policies. --217.215.99.203 14:24 Dec 30, 2002 (UTC)

If this is about an ethnic group, shouldn't it be at Finland-Swede according to naming conventions? Tokerboy

I don't think Finland-Swedish are an ethnic minority, but a lingual one. They are finns, not swedes after all.

There are differences between nationality and ethnicity. While the Finland-Swedes are ethnically Swedish their national belonging is to Finland. The term Finn refers to the Finnish ethnical group, which often inproperly is used also as the national designation for all Finnish citizens. The term Finlander is more proper since it includes both Finns and Swedes as Finnish nationals. -- Mic

On what basis do you consider Finland-Swedes ethnically Swedish?

From: http://www.lib.hel.fi/mcl/julkaisut/tutkielma/3.htm quote (in finnish): "Etninen ryhmä on siten vähemmistö, joka poikkeaa enemmistökulttuurista ulkonäöltään, kieleltään ja uskonnoltaan."

translation: "An ethnic group is thus a minority, which differs from the majority of the population by their appearance, language and religion"

Finland-Swedes not only appear Finns, they also have the same religion and almost all of them speak the same language. I have yet to meet a Finland-Swede who thinks of himself as a swede in a foreing country. -- Smicke

This is wrong, most Finland-Swedes do not speak Finnish. Some do, but most of them do not. Most Finland-Swedes feel a greater affiliation to Sweden than to Finland. They watch television, listen to radio from Sweden, read books from Sweden - all this in Swedish. Of course they not feel like they are living in a foreign country, after all, they have lived there for thousands of years - longer than the Finns! But they feel that they are Swedes, and that it is their country at least as much as the Finns. Den fjättrade ankan 01:19 May 5, 2003 (UTC)

I think you ought to support this with some data. It doesn't fit with the limited experience of mine. -- Ruhrjung 01:29 May 5, 2003 (UTC)

Well, that's what all my Finland-Swedes friends says, at least. And what they have written themselves at the Swedish Wikipedia sv:Finlandssvensk, as well as http://susning.nu/Finlandssvenska and http://susning.nu/Finlandssvensk(in Swedish). Den fjättrade ankan 02:16 May 5, 2003 (UTC)

With all respect, but...

Where are there any credible or serious claims of the Swedes having lived in Finland for longer than the Finns?
Regarding books: would you conclude that the German-speakers in Switzerland feel "a greater affiliation" to Germany than to Switzerland from the fact that more German books are written and printed in Germany and Austria than in Switzerland? No, I suppose you wouldn't.
If it were so, that Finland-Swedes really felt closer affiliated to Sweden than to Finland, then I'm sure there would exist sociological surveys and treaties and gallup polls ad infinitum. Do you know of any?
The figures for how the Finland-Swedes distribute their TV consumtion is:

25% Finnish language public service,

25% MTV,

20% Commercial TV in Scandinavian languages,

15% Public Service from Sweden,

10% Public service in Swedish from Finland (and 5% "Other").

-- Ruhrjung 04:20 May 5, 2003 (UTC)

Please note that "MTV" above refers to MTV3, a commercial Finnish terrestial broadcaster that existed long before the "Music" MTV's history began.

Correction: Finnish MTV3 had its own channel many years after Music television MTV had begun. --Lalli 18:13, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

1. Depends on what you mean by credible sources. You won't be able to find any definite sources saying that either group came first - it cannot be proven. Sure, you'll find people claiming that one group (usually their own) was their first but it is impossible to tell. Most probably there were Finns in the area around, say, Viipuri/Viborg before there were any Swedes there. Equally probable, there were Swedes in parts of the western coast of Finland before there were Finns there.

2. Almost no Finland-Swede feels "a greater affiliation" with Sweden. Our country is Finland, we support Finland, we feel for Finland.

3. There aren't any, see answer 2

4. This is an example of lying with statistics. Most Finland-Swedes I know watch only Swedish television and read only Swedish newspapers. According to the statistics you gave, this percentage is 45% - I have no idea why you've split it up into different categories. It all depends on the region, though. About 50% of the Finland-Swedes don't have access to Swedish television. In other words, almost all Finland-Swedes who do have that access watch Swedish television

I have yet to see a Swedish Finn who supports Sweden in ice hockey. - Cymydog Naakka 17:37, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Surely Swedes and Finns are both mostly Lutherans, no? So that doesn't prove anything. john 02:11 May 5, 2003 (UTC)

I am Finlandssvensk, but I now live in Sweden. I feel more like a Finländare, because of the fact that I feel that Swedes and Finlandssvenskar are two different groups. I feel that we finlandssvenskar have more common things with the finns. //Martin

Finland is bi-lingual country, therefore both Swedish and Finnish speaking residents of Finland can be ethnically Finnish - Officially there is no language barrier. Besides suomenruotsalaiset fought along their Finnish speaking brothers in Winter War and Continuation War. For all intents and purposes they are Finns. - G3, 15:32, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Finnic-speaking and Swedish-speaking Finns

The fact that English terminology doesn't seem to distinguish between members of the ethnical majority and citizens of Finland more generally is at the root of the problem discussed here. Can one intuitively distinguish between a Finnish language on one hand, and a Finnish national who is not Finnish, but Swedish? It doesn't really seem possible, at least not intuitively! Let's, for the sake of argument, refer to the language as Finnic instead of Finnish, and repeat the sentence. "Can one intuitively distinguish between a Finnic language on one hand, and a Finnish national who is not Finnic, but Swedish?" This change does seem clarifiy issues to a large extent.

The differences between the Finnic and the Swedish groups should not be over estimated, but neither should differences be neglected. In the discussion so far there has been some nationalistic overtones that I wish that we could do with out. It should be stated that the Finland-Swedes are neither Swedish nationals nor ethnically Finnic. However, as English doesn not make the distinction between Finnic and Finnish, the matter has to be expressed and terminology applied all the more delicately. -- Mic 16:42 May 5, 2003 (UTC)

I wish to second Mic above in the sense that the "ethnic" differences should not be just simply glossed over, as is often done in the official Finnish public discourse. I debate the language issue a lot with Fenno-Swedes -- personally, I believe that the Swedish language is given a lot of undue attention in Finland -- and my general observations on the ethnicity issue is that when it comes to it, the Fenno-Swedes are very skilled at shifting their ground as suits their purposes. If it is beneficial to their case, they are "just like the rest of us" and simply just speak a different language... but if you start to question the position granted to their mother tongue, all of a sudden they turn into this distinctly separate ethnic minority with special qualities that deserve to be protected -- even if it meant forcibly educating the entire rest of the population in their language, which is indeed a measure unheard of in the rest of the world. I wish they were, for once, at least consistent in defending their position.

The Fenno-Swedes were very eager to be recognized as an ethnicity of their own all the way until the last decades... in the old days, they even had leading individuals such as Axel Olof Freudenthal, a notorious racist, who were very eager to prove that the "Finnic Finns" where a lower race and thus deserved to be ruled by the higher-race Fenno-Swedes... their tone changed around 1980 when they realized that by isolation they were just going to go extinct. So, the better course of action was to try to seem as "Finnic" as they possibly could, so that the Swedish language would all of a sudden become the problem of everyone in the country... even of those who never had any contact with it before.

This is not just some random evil nazi attack on a minority... it is a wish that the Finnish language situation would be for once seen in a fair and balanced light, without the prejudice that is too often directed at individuals who wish to defend the rights of the people who speak Finnish as their mother tongue.

I have a serious gripe with "pakkoruotsi" ("mandatory Swedish") being characterized as a derogatory term. It simply just describes the school subject by its real name... that is what most Finnish-speaking Finns experience it as. Calling it "derogatory" is a politically loaded description that could come straight from the Svenska Folkpartiet... the Fenno-Swedish extremist party.

HuckFinn

The poster above is a classic example of an extreme nationalist that harbors an irrational hatred for the swedish-finnish population. They are eerily similar to nazis(note how he himself recognizes it and tries to address the issue before it is even raised) in how they vilify and demonize one minority group. They also have about the same credibility with the populace at large, both finnish and swedish-finnish, that is to say, next to none.

Lots of people might not like to learn swedish and there are tensions but extremist groups like these tries to capitalize on it.

Finland-Swedes appear very much like Finns in visage. The religion is the same, Lutheran, for those who have religion. (a buch of both of course have quitted membership of the church. A vast majority of Finland-Swedes think themselves as Finns (finländare).

It is totally wrong to claim that most Finland-Swedes do not speak Finnish. In reality, most of them do. Actually, a MAJORITY of them speak Finnish approximately as well as Swedish, thus being bilingual. (This is particularly true in areas of Nyland and Åboland, except some small villages. It is as true in towns in other provinces too, except Mariehamn.) Most of the rest have good grasp of Finnish language. A small minority of Finland-Swedes are not sufficiently familiar with Finnish, to use it. Most of them reside in Åland, and some rural municipalities of Ostrobothnia.

At hishest, only a small minority of Finland-Swedes feel a greater affiliation to Sweden than to Finland.

Duck: "Of course they not feel like they are living in a foreign country, after all, they have lived there for thousands of years" I must firstly quib stating that no living Finland-Swede has lived in Finland longer than 104 years, and most of them only for a remarkably shorter period. (Partially a joke, but of course very true. Of course, same goes for any living Finnish-speaking Finn.)

Thousands of years seems to be an exaggeration, even if speaking also about dead individuals aggregated as a race or whatever. We know that some archipelagoes got Swedish-speaking population about one thousand years ago, during the Viking raids, but no evidence shows Swedish inhabitation before that time.

However, it is absolutely incorrect to claim that Swddes lived in Finland long before the Finns. There is overwhelmingly vast amount of evidence of Finnic population in Finland already two or three thousands of years ago, and many signs already thousands of years before that.

213.243.157.114 18:17, 3 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Perhaps but the argument I believe was that the now finnish-swedish peoples ancestors colonized the emerging archipelago and west coast before the finnic populations did, not that they got to finland first, only they got to a certain part of what is now modern Finland first.

Finland-Swedish fennomans

Reverted changes in which an anonymous user attempted to remove a number of the listed individuals of Finland-Swedish origin, presumably due to their fennoman affiliation. Practically all of the first generation fennomans where Finland-Swedes, but self-professed affilliation did not alter their ethnic background. -- Mic 13:28, Dec 19, 2003 (UTC)

Dear Mic, the article itself agrees that Finland-Swedes are NOT ethnic Swedes. There is no significant differences in visage, coloration etc between Finns and Finland-swdes. Actually, bigger differences are found between two Finland-swedes, and between two Finns. You should learn that the language is the only thing that separates here.

Furthermore, the header of that list says "Swedish speakers". That is a very god choice, since the language is the difference. I understand the header to mean that those persons used swedish as their only (or at least main) language on their own volition.

jeffery and nihayah alexis and america and brittany and tony and dominique are all invete to my birthday and tre too

reflecting a Finnish nationalist point of view

As now this articel is NOT NPOV. It reflects a Finnish nationalist viewpoint. Finland-Swedes (or East Swedes, which many call themselves) themselves should tell what their feelings are, what they call themselves, etc, not outside people like Finnish nationalists. Den fjättrade ankan 22:26, 11 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Maybe you could elaborate on what it is that you think could be better expressed?
--Ruhrjung 01:11, 12 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Yes, they should tell what their feelings and not outside people like Swedish nationalists. Remember also that some Swedish-speaking Finns spoke first Finnish and then adobted Swedish-language. I don't have years now but "have heard about it once". Kahkonen 10:46, 2004 Jun 12 (UTC)

Ankan's view of how to make this article npov can be studied at http://wiki.riteme.site/w/wiki.phtml?title=Finland-Swedish&diff=4032241&oldid=4025795 which I reverted all-in-all. To put it brief, there might have been parts of his edits which are of any value, but... if so, maybe a step-by-step approach would be to prefer. /Tuomas 10:53, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)

According to Wikipedia:NPOV dispute:

If you add the above code to an article which seems to you to be biased, but there is no prior discussion of the bias, you need to at least leave a note on the article's talk page describing what you consider unacceptable about the article.

I remove that banner now.
--Ruhrjung 12:57, 2004 Jun 16 (UTC)

List of Swedish-speaking Finns

I think there is a factual error in the list of Finland-Swedes: the name of Pehr Evind Svinhufvud. Undeniably, his name is totally Swedish, but I have read that he was chiefly a Finnish-speaking person. One of the signs of his Finnish preference has been the first names of his children. He christened them with Finnic names. He lived in places where practically only Finnish is spoken, such as his home in Luumäki.

Strange, since what I remember from political autobiographies and similar works is that hes mothertongue was Swedish and that it's noted that he (at least at his age) as president spoke Swedish with Swedish speaking politicians. /Tuomas 19:14, 7 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Regarding his refusal to finnicize the surname, there are excellent motivations for such refusal despite of his otherwise Finnish preference: 1) the ancient history of the surname and its position as a protected name, enrolled among the nobility in the Finnish riddarhuset. He actually was the primogenitural head of the said noble house, thus having an inherited place among vote-entitled chairs of the Riddarhuset - which was first of the four estates of the days of Diet, up to 1906. 2) direct translation would be Sianpää, Swinehead, not very nice. He could live with an ancient name (with historical value to counter the not very beautiful content) that he has not personally chosen and that was in language (Swedish) so alien to most of people surrounding him, but he could have been wary to choose himself a Finnish name that says Swinehead to everyone.

Regarding Svinhufvud if he could be called a Swedish-Finn by todays standard or not could be viewed by looking at his genealogy. On his father's side the namelist consists almost totally of nobility names that can be traced to Sweden, the area around Viborg and down towards the continent - many of them with old family brances in Finland. On his mother's side the lines are quite similar. I wouldn't be that sure that the language spoken at home at Svinhufvud's wasn't Swedish, after all also the Timgren family was quite Swedish speaking.

The fact that he was a fennoman doesn't necessary mean that he turned completely Finnish speaking over night and abolished his Swedish language heritage. He simply saw that the Finnish language was surpressed within the administration and should be given the status it should have and worked for this goal. Perhaps it even was politically wise for him to do? He was a prominent man in any case. Nice to be related to him!

Because of this line of thought the Svinhufvud name is a good candidate for a list of "Swedish-Finns" - if such a list is interesting to have. Hasse N.

He chose political parties, firstly "Nuorsuomalainen Puolue", then "Kansallinen Kokoomus" (both of full Fennoman origin) for his political activities, instead of Svenska Folkpartiet. Had he been of Finland-Swedish preference, and in agreement with SFP's goals, why did he not enroll that party? Why did he always chose heirs of original Fennomans, those parties which had advancement of Finnish language as their cultural program in all of his time there?

Therefore, I propose that Svinhufvud's name be removed from the list within two weeks, if no one brings convincing evidence of him being preferentially Finland-Swede on his own volition.

213.243.157.114 07:50, 4 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Interesting that there apparently are so few truly Finland-Swedish notables that a bunch of Finnish-speakers are needed to fill that meager list.

Were I not overly enjoying the situation where our Fnnish citizens are welcomed to yet more lists of notable people around the world (apparently they are seen as national heroes in Sweden), I might suggest that such inclusion is the mark of what sort of success these Sveco-nationalists represent here. 213.243.157.114 21:45, 4 Jul 2004 (UTC)

That's weird. There is many Finnish-speaking Finns in the list. If some Finnish-Swedish speaks Finnish, is he Finnish-Swedish aka. Swedish speaking Finn? Kahkonen 21:51, 2004 Jul 6 (UTC)

If their mother tongue was Swedish, or if they married Finland-Swedish (Lönnrot), and if the Finland-Swedes or the Sweden-Swedes are heppy with including ardent Fennomans, then why not?

I consider the following inclusions as more of pranks than serious additions suitable for an international public, why I remove them:

Markus Drake, a famed Green politician in Finnish politics. Mannequin of freedom of narcotics.
Hans Duncker, a politician of Svenska Folkpartiet, and a famed jailbird because of drug trafficking
Nils Gustafsson, survivor of Bodom massacre, and a suspect
Lennart Hohenthal, political assassin who shot Finnish attorney general Eliel Soisalon-Soininen
Nils Holgersson, world-traveller
Johnny Liebkind, famous Jew civil rights fighter. Spent a couple of years in Isreali prison.
Elias Lönnrot, (1802-1884), author. He did not speak particularly good Swedish, and was from Finnish-speaking rural parts. Finnish has been known to be his native language
- This is of course a typical conception in Scandinavia. I wonder what's said among the Finland-Swedes.
Robert Rossander, former Finnish business magnate.

/Tuomas 19:14, 7 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Would Snellman be a good addition to the list? As far as I know he hardly new any Finnish but was very active in Finland.

the introductory paragraph

The following sentence is simplified, as it according to my judgement is too convoluted for the introductory paragraph:

From the administrative centralization of the 17th century forwards until the mid-19th century it was the sole language of jurisdiction, administration and higher education in Finland, however in some respects only together with Latin. In 1892 Finnish as an official language (already granted 1863) gained a status fully equal to that of Swedish, and at Finland's independence in 1917 Finnish clearly dominated in government and society.

It's of limited relevance to remind an international audience that the then-international language of science, Latin, was used beside the local language in education. The domestic debate in Finland, and particularly its history, makes it motivated to remind about this - in Finland! ...and it's of course not wrong, But we must think on the poor reader who is not to be confused. After reformation, the importance of Latin in Finland were not at all comparable to the situation in the remaining Catholic lands.

The reference to the language edict by Charles XI is here first of all misdated, as the great administrative centralization was during the 30-Years War; and maybe more important, the reference is also misrepresenting King Charles's recasting of judicial procedure, church government, and central administration (including the riddarhuset) which for sure aimed at a unitary nation with one language being used in all parts of government, but it was aimed at the territorial gains in the south Swedish Pomerania, Scania etc, and elitist officials from the Continent who wrote and spoke Danish, Dutch and Low German also in official contexts. References to that language edict, and the interpretations of it, ...and the less benevolent effects of it for Finns in what remained of Sweden after 1808/09... are surely more relevant in the articles on Fennomans, Finland's language strife and the Sweden Finns.

I restore the introductory paragraph to the following wording:

Finland-Swedish is a variety of Swedish. Until 1863 it was the sole language of jurisdiction, administration and higher education in Finland. In 1892 Finnish became an official language and gained a status comparable to that of Swedish, and at Finland's independence in 1917 Finnish clearly dominated in government and society.

/Tuomas 18:16, 7 Jul 2004 (UTC)

The "simplified" introductory above oversimplified the facts into untruthfulness.

Firstly, during the Middle Ages and up to administrative centralization which was completed by Gustav II Adolph's government, administrative language situation in Finland was semi-anarchic. Finnish was much used. German and Latin were approximately as important as Swedish. Finland did actually not have any centralized administration besides the bishopric of Turku, which actually mostly used Latin and Finnish.

Which was not at all unique for Finland, as I am sure you know. /Tuomas 23:53, 7 Jul 2004 (UTC)

So what. We have here an article that purports to describe the position of SWEDISH as language in Finland. Not an article that DIRECTLY deals with position of Finnish as language in Finland. I require that the position of Swedish is presented as truthfully and properly as possible. The fact remains, In Middle Ages, Swedish has a position that was nowhere as high as later after 1600´s. Therefore, those two eras shall NOT be dubbed into one. I believe Finnish as language of administration etc was more important than Swedish up to 1600´s. Do you agree? Or, do you have counterarguments and facts in its support?213.243.157.114 08:23, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Actual contacts with Rikssverige were scarce. Österlandia was very separate from Sweden in almost all practical terms. Gustav Vasa made first attempts towards regular secular administration, but his "fogde"s were compelled to use much Finnish, since taxes were anyway rather difficult to collect from unwilling payers, and use of incomprehensible language (Swedish) in inner areas of Finland would have frustrated tax-collection efforts into failure. Gustav, after all, was a practical guy who wanted the money and was not so eager on principles, language ideologies etc. (Gustav was a Swede.)

This is stupid anti-Swedish arguments which reflects poorly on us if allowed to take up space in an article on a 5%-minority in Finland. Finland and the Finns have the moral high ground on our side until we start to demonize the Finland-Swedes. /Tuomas 23:53, 7 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I have not suggested adding Gustav's fogdes into the article. Those facts are to feature the context in this TALK, in order to let discussants understand what happened - regarding to use of administrative language. I do not bother with moral grounds etc. I require factual correctness.

Of course, you are welcome to present a case of pity - however, some elsewhere, thank you. Factual encyclopedia is not a place to twist facts to say that even before 1600´s, evil Swedes succeeded to use their language as sole one in Finland. Since that simply was not true.213.243.157.114 08:23, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I oppose saying that before 1600's Swedish was anything like SOLE administrative language. The key word here is "sole".

This is (almost) perfectly allright. But as you point out yourself, there wasn't much of administration beside the (Catholic) Church and the governor in Viipuri before Reformation. The point is, you have to keep the introductory paragraph brief and inviting for the reader. And as the

Then, a chapter of history is needed in the article.213.243.157.114 08:23, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)

language of laws was Swedish, not Finnish, and the language used in communication from the state administration out to the provinces was mainly Scandinavian and in any case not Finnish, there is

Actually, I have believed that even throughout 1600-1860´s, judges needed to explain the court proceedings to their Finnish-speaking listeners, such as the accused (convicted), plaintiffs, and Finnish-speaking juries, in Finnish. Therefore, I somewhat doubt how correct is to say that the language of jurisdiction has been Swedish. Perhaps, "language of protocols of jurisdiction", would be a correct expression...213.243.157.114 08:23, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Comm outside (adm): You need firstly to understand that before Gustav Vasa, there actually was very little communication between Finland and Sweden. Whereas there was much administration inside Finland, or more properly, inside a castle province, inside a parish, etc. E.g, tax-collection on behalf of castle lord and by fogdes. And I am rather sure that most of that communication took place in Finnish.213.243.157.114 08:23, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)

no reason to go into specific details in the introduction. You do surely know as well as I about the first occurences of translations to Finnish. /Tuomas 23:53, 7 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Daily administration has all the time been made orally to large extent. You speak much about written language.213.243.157.114 08:23, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)

in 1860´s Finnish already became an official language, thus is is not correct to cite that as to 1893. 1893 was the point when Finnish as official language became fully equal with Swedish.

While I do understand what you mean, I beg to disagree strongly on the point of wording. Finnish became fully equal with Swedish in the administration after it had got a legally equal position in 1892.

Actually, I did not check that 1892/93 earlier (I was too trusting). Yesterday I went to pages of Suomalaisuuden Liitto. In their dateline listing, actually next to nothing happened in 1892 or 1893. The equalization happened in 1902. Please check the facts, and furnish the claims with evidence.213.243.157.114 08:23, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)

It's questionable exactly when the languages de facto were equal in standing, but it's undisputable that it was at least some years into the 20th century, like after the parliamentary reform of 1906

Crap. Prlm reform had nothing to do with legal equalness. In dateline of SL, there was a legislative act of equalness in 1902. I think that date shoulde be used.213.243.157.114 08:23, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)

for instance. But I must admit that the wording I restored was[1] unlucky: It's of course not the year 1892 but 1863 that's relevant for the status as official language, although the Language Ordinance required a gradual introduction of Finnish – over a period of twenty years, was it? /Tuomas 23:53, 7 Jul 2004 (UTC)

It was 20 yrs, intended to completed 1883. But unsurprisingly some delay took place, thus 1886 (three yrs late) a new act was in force. However, against the original intent, it did not guarantee full equalness. Equality was waited upon up until 1902.

(And, 1892 was nothing in this history, sorry.)213.243.157.114 08:23, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Swedish was nothing like SOLE language of higher education even after the reformation, since in Academy of Turku, master's theses and bachelor's writings, as well as debate events etc, were conducted in Latin. I recommend the previous writer to check something as easy as the list of titles of master's theses during that period. My great-great-etc-greatgranduncle Simon Fretin's Master's thesis was titled in Latin. And so was H.G.Porthan's and of others, too. Please check.

This is undisputable. The question remains: what is appropriate to put into the introduction of this article. What would you say about the wording "Swedish, not Finnish, was the language of..."? On the other hand, I think the wording with "sole" has a merit as it highlights the reason, need and mandate for the fennomans (and the language strife). /Tuomas 23:53, 7 Jul 2004 (UTC)

If Swedish was not the only, then an attribute "chief" or "main" should be used instead. Sole means actually the only, if you understand.213.243.157.114 08:23, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)

There are clear indications that Swedish actually had a rather minor role in the Academy of Turku.

Yes, but still we would lead the reader astray if we gave the impression that Latin had an importance comparable with in for instance Poland. You remember that it was first in 1828 that a Finnish lectorate was introduced? /Tuomas 23:53, 7 Jul 2004 (UTC)

No one has mentioned Polish universities in the article. Please do not direct the discussion into irrelevancy. In my opinion, it is not truthful to present Swedish even as "main language of higher education 1600-1860", since it was not. Rather, it should put forward that Finnish language was not present at all in higher education up to 1800´s...213.243.157.114 08:23, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Somehow I could agree to a narrow formulation: from 1600's up until 1863 it was the sole language of jurisdiction and administration in Finland.

213.243.157.114 18:44, 7 Jul 2004 (UTC)

List of Swe... criteria

What sort of criteria we want for the list? For reasons I can't fathom, IP-addressed editors have added numerous Finnish-speaking Finns to the list, such as Minna Canth, the first Finnish-speaking female journalist. It seems that it's enough that there is some, however tenuous, connection to the Swedish language, to classify the entire person as Finland-Swedish, as in real-world politics. For example, these criteria might be used:

Swedish surname; many purely Finnish-speaking people have Swedish surnames. For one, the Swedish royal government refused to record Finnish names. Later, having a Swedish surname was a status symbol. Also, some Finnish noble families had to have a Swedish name to be recorded to the Swedish knight house, such as Svinhufvud.
entirely Swedish name, again, the same story
one Swedish-speaking parent
went to Swedish-speaking school — the catch being that the only possible "not Swedish" school used to be a Latin-speaking school "in the olden days"
bilingual, even if the achievements are literary works in Finnish, not Swedish

This is a bit similar to the "one drop of coloured blood" case in the USA, except for the motivation.

Names have nothing to do with it... language and identity, I'd say. I can imagine cases where it would make sense to call someone whose major work is in Finnish a Swedish-speaking Finn (if that is the best term), but generally no. OK I am a Swede (rikssvensk) and I shouldn't pretend to know all about these matters but is there really much confusion here? Outside of the Wikipedia list, that is. If you see people on the list you know as Finnish-speaking Finns, I suggest you take them out. /Habj 00:58, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

One problem is that in the olden days, Swedish used to be the official language. This meant that purely Finnish-speaking people had to learn it in order to end up in a list of "notables". Also, I wouldn't call anyone who publishes exclusively in Finnish and not in Swedish a probable Swedish-speaker. (There were also obvious cases of vandalism, like Larin Paraske, a Karelian poem singer.) Even if I have tried to prune the list, it's still not reliable. --Vuo 01:50, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I didn't have other intentions than alphabetising the list - it was an abvious mess. I can't understand that I didn't react on Mika Waltari, though. The longer a list on Wikipedia is, the less reliable it tends to be... /Habj 19:10, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Swedish-speaking Finns?

I lack an English word to translate finlandssvensk/suomenruotsalaisuus, i.e. what you call a person of Finland whose mother tongue is Swedish. It deserves an article, but what is the terminology in English? Is Swedish-speaking Finn a widely accepted term? How do the Finns - here meaning of both languages - feel about the term? /Habj 00:53, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Finlandsvensk would translate into Finland-Swede, that is the most used word. I guess "Swedish speaking Finn" works too and is used when you want to use a simpler and more describing word. I created a redirect from Swedish-speaking Finn to Finland-Swedish. bbx 23:47, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Finland-Swede is not used in English. You cannot concatenate two nouns like that in English.

Tensions?

Can anybody back up the claim of tensions between the Swedish minority and Finnish majority? I've spent one year as an exchange student at the Swedish School of Economics and Business Administration in Helsinki and according to what I heard and read (in Swedish-language newspapers in Finland) the only reason for disagreement with some of the Finnish-speaking majority is the language issue. In brief: Some Finnish-speakers consider studying Swedish a waste of time that could be spent studying other (in their opinion more useful) languages whilst the Swedish-speakers are concerned about the future of their language (which as far as I could tell is a quite legitimate concern). Whilst speaking in English with exchange students the Finnish-Swedes referred to themselves as "Swedish-speaking Finns" - often complemented with explanations that they do have their own traditions and culture (i.e. different from what the Finnish-speaking majority has). Some of the traditions are the same as in Sweden whilst others are entirely their own. One year of studies has obviously not been enough to expose me to all Finnish-Swedish opinions but everyone I encountered felt as affiliated to Sweden as Americans to Great Britain (and before I learnt to immediately imply that I knew it they were easily offended and very quick to point that out to me immediately since I'm from Sweden). Since my contacts with Finnish-speakers were fairly limited I cannot compare their patriotism with that of the Swedish speakers so I don't know what the "average level of patriotism" in Finland is but the Swedish-speakers were very pro-Finland patriotic. Their pro-Finland patriotism was much stronger than e.g. the Swedish patriotism in Sweden and I believe that it's due to the history of the country since virtually everyone has an ancestor that has shed blood for the country and e.g. the school building (like all school buildings that existed during the war, I was told) have memorial plaques with names of students that died for the country.

The Swedish-speaking Finns are Finns. It's rather confusing to associate them with the Swedish. Only Åland Swedish-speakers have had any interest in joining Sweden. Tensions, though, are real. The language problem is rather simple, namely that the Finland-Swedes attempt to keep a 5% minority language, a local majority language only in some rural areas, as a national language. Attempts of conservation are highly expensive, e.g. keeping 10-student schools in rural areas (which costs 10 times more per student than bigger schools) or teaching everyone Swedish (which, again, takes time and money away from learning German, French, Russian etc.). They also want Swedish-speaker quotas for education, permitting inferior Swedish students in (seen that, it's not pretty → ended up taking an extra year for a 3-year programme). In effect, a small, but loud minority. In all other respects, the Finland-Swedish are just as the Finnish-speakers; you already mentioned patriotism. --Vuo 13:10, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

No. The Swedish-speaking minority in Finland are ethnic Swedes. The only difference between them and the ethnic Swedes living in Sweden is their citizenship. There are for example larger differences between Swedes in Västerbotten and Småland than between Swedes in Västerbotten and Finland-Swedes in Österbotten. Den fjättrade ankan 11:39, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I have to say that this might give a wrong impression that is almost "dangerous" since many of the Finland-Swedes I met quickly stated that they weren't the same as I was and some were, frankly, offended by the thought that they'd e.g. support Sweden in sports and that wasn't what I'd learnt to expect from reading this page prior to leaving for Finland last autumn. My experience is of course limited but a clarification on such issues might be in place since recognizing that they have their own identity is important (especially if you're from Sweden - othwerise you easily get accused of "storsvenskhet"). (unsigned)

I disagree with Ankan, who apparently is rikssvensk, with the POV which that implies - no offense intended ;-)
I definitely don't consider myself an "ethnic Swede"! I am a Finn, with Swedish as my mother tongue, thus I consider myself a finlandssvensk (Finland-Swede), or finländare (Finlander), but these are not well-known terms in English, and I never use them. To me, "Finland-Swede" implies Swedish ethnicity, which is totally foreign to me.
No, in the English language, I am definitely a "Swedish-speaking Finn". This is the term I always use myself, even though it is somewhat clumsy.
The differences in Swedish-language dialects within both Sweden and Finland are huge - I understand a Swede from Stockholm or Gotland much better than a Swedish-speaking Finn from, say, Nedervetil in Österbotten, Finland. But I'm pretty sure the latter would not consider himself an ethnic Swede! (I bet the Ålanders don't either, they're Ålänningar, and proud of it! ;-)
--Janke | Talk 30 June 2005 22:20 (UTC)

There are som small tensions, but these are not to be exaggerated. I as a Swedishspeaking Finn, or Finland-Swede, do not feel that my finnishspeaking brothers would be against me, in any way. Offcourse there are some nationalistic movements in Finland, who don't like the idea of having Swedish as a national language, as we are only 6% of the population. But from my personal point of view, these arguments aganist Finland-Swedes are baised on:

Some Finnishspeaking people feel that we don't like to be in Finland
Some Finnishspeakers have a steroptyp view on Finland-Swedes, that we are "bättre folk", or "Better People"
Some Finnishspeakers think that we nag to much when we want service in Swedish
There is a negative feeling aganist Sweden (and some Swedish speakers), from a)historic things b) pakkoruotsi, our plainly, the fact that Finnsh speakers have to read Swedish in every school in Finland
Some Finnish speaking feel that we feel more like Swedes, when we say that we are Finlandssvenskar

In my own opinion, and I come from a very Finnish town, are that many people are only positive towards Swedish speaking people. As many Finnish speaking know that the Finland-Swedes have lived in Finland for hundreds of years and that many have Finland-Swedes fought for Finland in the wars and acctualy built Finland togehter with their Finnish speaking brothers.

Talking about the diffrences between Finnish and Swedish speakers, there are some. Finland-Swedes have some other traditions and just speak Swedish, but mostly the cultural thing is not more then that we select Swedish as subtitile on a DVD or go to look at a Swedish language theather. Like, if I would go and have a beer with a Finnish speaker, we would not be arguing with eachother about culture or something, we would propablly get drunk and look at hockey or do something stupid. But, okeay, there are also some Finland-Swedes that feel negative against Finnish speakers, as many feel that they are threath or something. But, the absolut majority within both group are positive to eachother, or just don't think about it. I don't feel that we make so much diffrence between Finland-Swedes and Finnishspeakers.

Finland-Swedes and Finnishspeakers have lived side-by-side in many years
Both groups fought for Finland
Both groups have built Finland, and both groups have made large countributions to Finland

I live now in Sweden, but I can say that I do not feel that I am a Swede. I am maybe proud of myself, that I live in Sweden and share something with them and just live here. But I have been thought to be proud of my country, Finland. For me it feels very natural to celebrate the Independence Day of Finland and do support Finland in hockey and sports. I remember how my grandparents told me stories about how they or there parents fhought in the wars and how the survived. So I think that the arguments that Finland-Swedes feel more as Swedes, it totally wrong and I don't feel like I would have to defent myself, or explain why I feel as a Finlander. For me it is very natural to be a Finlander. Dr.Poison 11:11, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

The problem with the term "Swedish-speaking Finn"

It seems that some believe that the usage of that term (in English) by Finnish-speakers is political whilst it IMHO is entirely linguistical. I'm a Finland-Swede but speak Finnish virtually flawlessly too and think that I can explain why the term is problematic and why Finnish-speakers fail to see the problem (and thus I don't think their use of it is political). The Finnish language only has one word for a member of the population in Finland and that is "suomalainen" and consequently think that "Finn" is a correct translation. Finland-Swedes, however, make a distinction between "finne" and "finländare". The word "finne" is used to refer to a member of the population in Finland that has Finnish as his/her mother tongue (and a Finnish surname and so on). "Finländare" is instead used to refer to every member of the population in Finland - i.e. regardless of mother tongue and surname. Thus even though "finn" = "suomalainen" is an acceptable translation for Finnish-speakers the translation "finn" = "finne" about a Finland-Swede is not preferable and "Swedish-speaking Finn" = "svenskpråkig finne" is quite misleading. Finland-Swedes would use the latter to refer to a Finn that can speak Swedish but isn't a Finland-Swede. I might also add that for this very reason it is quite inappropriate by Swedes in Sweden to refer to the population in Finland as "finnar", which unfortunately is quite common - "finländare" is much more preferable. The word Finlander would be better in English as well but unfortunately it hasn't caught on (13 900 hits on Google vs. 6 940 000 "Finn") since few foreigners even know that Finland-Swedes exist and I'm reasonably sure that the general use of the word on the Internet is to refer to members of the population in Finland and not only Finnish-speakers. As far as affiliation is concerned I don't think there's any factual basis for a claim that some would feel more affiliated to Sweden than Finland. We do feel some affiliation to Sweden since that's our origin but that's all. I have relatives in Sweden that despite living there, speaking Swedish like they do and having Swedish names consider themselves Finlanders living in Sweden and not Swedes moving back. /Mathias_Johansson (Added afterwards because I registered myself now.)

Finländare (Finlander) is a relatively recent term even in Swedish. It was artificially created in the 19th century to make a difference between Finnish-speakers (finnar)and Swedish-speakers. Before that ALL inhabitants of Finland were called Finns (finnar in Swedish, suomalaiset in Finnish). Therefore I think it is only natural, that this term has not gained popularity in other languages. It would be better, furthermore, if Swedish-speakers reverted back to the earlier tradition and called themselves Finns (finnar) in the cases when it is not important to pay special attention to the mother-tongue of the speakers.128.214.205.4 11:48, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Incorrect English

The problem is that you are inventing a word here - Finland Swede is simply not correct English even though you think it may describe you more accurately.

A secondary problem is that Finland Swede in English (were the term actually to exist) would mean a person of Swedish nationality living in Finland.

The conjuction of two nouns in English simply doesn't work in the way you are trying to use it - you perhaps should be talking about "Finnish Swede", and "Finnish Swedish" (compare the correct English description of the language spoken in Scotland: "Scottish Gaelic, or in Ireland: Irish Gaelic). But again Finnish Swede would actually suggest someone of Swedish nationality

From Forskningscentralen för de inhemska språken:
"Laurén använder i sin artikel Finland Swede om person, Finland-Swedish som adjektiv och Finland Swedish om språkvarianten. Efter att för säkerhets skull ha konsulterat engelsk expertis kan jag rekommendera de termerna för allmänt bruk i texter på engelska om finlandssvenska förhållanden."
Enough said. Den fjättrade ankan 22:33, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Translated to English (from Swedish): In his article, Laurén uses Finland Swede about a person, Finland-Swedish as an adjective and Finland Swedish about the variant of Swedish language. Having checked with English expertise just to be sure, I can recommend these terms for general use in texts in English regarding Finland-Swedish things. The web site belongs to an official research institute in Finland that deals with the languages of Finland. /Habj 08:31, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Yes, that translation should be used throughout the article. "Reuters ruta" is _the_ source for questions regarding the Swedish language in Finland and he made the same note as I did regarding the problem with "Swedish speaking Finn". Thus such corrections should be made everywhere in this article for starters but there are several other issues as well that I consider very strange. /Mathias_Johansson

Interesting discussion... Well, being a Swedish-speaking Finlander myself, I did add the term finländare to the ethnicity sector, and I also changed it to more NPOV. Looking at older edits, I see many versions, some very POV.
PS: See my comments in the previous section, too.
--Janke | Talk 30 June 2005 21:37 (UTC)

Why on earth does this article have this name? It is wrong and clearly goes agains the recommendation of The Research Institute for the Languages of Finland [2] (30/1 1987: Finsk formgivning). They have even consulted English experts on the naming issue. --MoRsE 00:31, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

"Affiliation"

I've been thinking about the presentation of "affiliation" here and consider it quite awkward. The Swedish wikipedia page is much better and although it seems to be written mostly for Swedes from Sweden, parts of it could be translated as such but the problem is the word "finländare" (which has been noted previously).

My point is that whilst it due to the aforementioned translation issue is difficult to translate the Swedish text as such it is also very strange to write "affiliated to" since in Finland the issue is obvious and should thus be presented as such here as well. That is, the following translation of the Swedish text makes perfect sense to anyone familiar with the terms but it probably seems strange to the vast majority of wikipedia readers that aren't: "In general, Finland-Swedes consider themselves to be just as much Finlanders as the Finnish-speaking majority..."

On the one hand wikipedia could do a small contribution to make the word "Finlander" more common by using it but on the other the problem is that because the word is unusual it could thus be perceived as poor quality.

I think that the following - more elaborate translation - could be used but preferably after a native-speaker (of English) has commented on it (I'm unsure whether the noun "national" has the right meaning):

In general, Finland-Swedes consider themselves to be just as much Finnish nationals as the Finnish-speaking majority, i.e. they support Finland in sports, consider Finland their home country and themselves a part of Finnish society but they have their own identity, which is distinct of that of the majority (and wish to be recognized as such).

Possibly, the word "Finlander" could be made more common by including the following (opinions, please!):

Preferably, Finnish nationals should be referred to as "Finlanders" since it encompasses all - regardless of native language. In English, however, the word "Finn" is more commonly used but Finland-Swedes, might dislike it because the accurate Swedish translation of it ("finne") usually implies a speaker of Finnish. In Swedish the word "finländare" is thus more commonly used (especially in Finland) and the accurate English translation of that is "Finlander", but that is - unfortunately - rarely used. Finnish-speakers usually fail to make this distinction in English (and have thus made the word "Finn" more common) because the Finnish language only has one word for Finlanders or Finns ("suomalainen").

The current version of the article is the first time ever that I encounter someone claiming that a Finn could perceive "Finlander" as offensive. What is that statement based on? As I've stated above there's a linguistical explanation why Finnish-speakers usually say "Finn".

I'd also add following part from the Swedish wikipedia, since it clarifies things (it's not an exact translation but a more elaborate continuation to the translation I made above and it's stated in conjunction with the same part on the Swedish wikipedia page): Even though their culture bears a stronger resemblance to that in Sweden than to that of the Finnish-speaking majority, they do not feel affiliated with present-day Sweden.

Furthermore I think that the sentence "Today, it's often stated that Finland-Swedes are not Swedes in any other sense than that of language, and that the history (from 1714 and on) gives them no reason to feel any obligation or allegiance to Sweden." is quite pointless for a couple of reasons: (1) What does obligation or allegiance really mean in this context (what are you trying to express)? (2) Stated by whom? In previous versions it was "the Finnish speakers" but I don't see why their opinion is relevant in an article about Finland-Swedes.

I also wonder whether the sentence "...the exception may be the monolingual Åland islands." only adds confusion? A friend of mine from Åland said that a poll that was recently conducted there showed that 7 % wish for independence, 2 % that Åland was part of Sweden and the rest are satisfied with its current status. The poll was, however, conducted by "Fria Åland", which strives for independence and might thus be a little bit biased - I have, however, been unable to find it online but only searched briefly since I really don't think the matter is very important. If others think it is, you should most definitely not just include those figures as such but instead first find the poll to use as a reference.

/Mathias_Johansson

Mathias - I totally support your suggestions. I've marked a few passages with bold type in your text above that I think should be incorporated in the article. Would you want to do it yourself? If I don't see the changes in a week or so, I'll do it myself. PS: Do create a user page, so we can send messages to you! --Janke | Talk 07:58, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

I started my discussion page now (I wanted to do that yesterday but I had forgotten my login and the new password e-mail was somehow infinitely delayed). /Mathias_Johansson

"widely established tacit agreement"

In my opinion that part should be removed for several reasons: (1) It's quite likely based purely on the personal experience of the individual that wrote it and I can immediately say that my experience has been the complete opposite: Finnish-speakers frequently want to speak Swedish with us so that they can use the language and also improve it through practice (2) If it isn't obvious enough already due to the different experiences; it's ridiculous to state that there is any "tacit agreement" for choice of language in a group since it's simply case-by-case: varying language skills + context (eg. business meeting / party) + promille level (all Finns speak Swedish when they're drunk ;) (3) I don't see how an encyclopedia should include such an explanation of something so vague and irrelevant for people to whom this article should teach something new (i.e. foreigners that presumably speak neither Finnish nor Swedish).

/Mathias_Johansson

Well, this is a matter of opinion. It is a fact, at least in my own experience, that a group tends to speak Finnish if there's even one Finn present. (My girlfriend "listens fluently", and speaks Swedish pretty well, even though a bit shyly, but still all my Finlander friends always speak Finnish in her presence!) So, this part could be re-written somewhat. Can we reach consensus here? I will wait a few days before doing anything... --Janke | Talk 08:05, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean with concensus but I think it should simply be omitted - it's not relevant for foreigners reading this unless they speak both languages and visit Finland - and in that case they'll have their own experiences (which, as I noted, vary).

Finns or Finlanders

A few points regarding my changes:

I made the changes that I previously proposed and removed most parts regarding ethnicity - Janke suggested it and I agree; I think that the link to the article "ethnic Swedes" is enough. Even though I'm not familiar enough with that subject to assess that article I think that everybody agrees that the content here was a mess (ethnicity + status + politics all-in-one). I don't object if someone wants to re-enter some of that under "History", though.

I'm still unsure whether "Finnish nationals" has the right meaning - perhaps it should be replaced with "Finnish people". As I stated previously, if a native speaker of English can comment, it would be greatly appreciated. The question I'd like to get answered is whether the explanation "support Finland in sports, consider Finland their home country and themselves a part of Finnish society" is redundant or not - if it is, then the sentence would reflect the right meaning better without the explanation since the issue is obvious in Finland and thus explaining it is awkward (i.e. it shouldn't be "surprising" to anyone).

Personally, I'm unsure whether any Finland-Swede really would dislike being referred to as a Finn abroad but since some users here make claims that that is the case I included it. The difference is important in Swedish (when spoken in Finland) but I doubt that many even know of the word "Finlander" - perhaps it should be added to both Wikipedia and Wiktionary since it does exist in dictionaries (I just checked Norstedts). Swedes from Sweden: Please adopt our use of the words "finne" and "finländare", we'd really appreciate it! (Apologies to those who know the difference, but I read too many Swedish newspapers that don't.)

I kept the content regarding tensions almost intact but the statement "occupy unproportionally many administrative positions" is somewhat POV because: Good language skills (due to many being bilingual and Germanic languages being easier to learn for Swedish-speakers) + good education (due to well-educated parents, which of course is a consequence of past developments and an advantage but hard to see as unjust treatment of Finnish-speakers at present) = good job (and thus there's nothing unproportional about it unless there's discrimination against Finnish-speakers with identical skills). Such content could be included if reformulated to include explanations.

/Mathias_Johansson

Looks good now. Thanks for cleaning it up - that whole "ethnicity" stuff bothered me. --Janke | Talk 13:27, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
PS: I added a copyright-fee map - the old one was a copyvio! --Janke | Talk 14:24, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

Speaking as your everyday run-of-the-mill finne, I'd like to point out that I have an issue with the word 'Finlander'. First of all, it is not an English word, and is in my opinion a very crude loan. I haven't found it in any dictionary, and it doesn't get very many Google hits on English pages. - ulayiti (talk) 00:45, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

Really? Check http://lexikon.nada.kth.se/cgi-bin/sve-eng or http://mot.kielikone.fi/mot/ (the latter requires subscription). /Mathias_Johansson

Secondly, the existence of the distinction in Swedish between finne and finländare does not, in my opinion, justify artificially creating such a distinction in any other language. I find the whole distinction very artificial anyhow - why segregate between two groups of Finns who are nearly identical apart from the language they were raised in? I don't see any beneficial cause as to why this distinction should be artificially enforced on Wikipedia - either the English or the Swedish one. It's not one based on any actual difference, and thus applying a label to a group of Finns that seems to question their 'Finnishness' can only feed prejudice. - ulayiti (talk) 00:45, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

You should also read my previous comments about the issue ("The problem with the term 'Swedish-speaking Finn'" and "Affiliation"). As far as the Swedish wikipedia is concerned the difference between "finländare" and "finne" is a valuable contribution since many in Sweden are unaware of it and the words contribute to the language. They're used consistently in Finland-Swedish to distinguish between different groups of Finnish people, whenever necessary - you would say "finsk kultur" rather than "finskspråkig kultur", wouldn't you? That doesn't constitute any "segregation" or "artificial distinction". /Mathias_Johansson

It does, because it gives the impression that finländarna aren't 'real' Finns, they just happen to live in a country called Finland. By the way, I just found out that according to the Swedish Academy the use of finländare to refer to Finland-Swedes has developed 'through misunderstanding of the views that the word's creation was based on' and that it really should mean 'citizens of Finland regardless of their race' (see [3] for the entry). And Finland-Swedes aren't exactly a 'race', are they? - ulayiti (talk) 09:12, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

What comes to your phrasing of 'Finnish nationals', I think it's not a suitable expression to use when talking about Finland-Swedes. It seems to suggest someone who's only recently attained the nationality, and so using 'Finnish people' instead would be infinitely better to me. - ulayiti (talk) 00:45, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

Tensions between Finnish and Swedish speakers

I removed two paragraphs here - they really don't belong in this article at all. See Mathias' comments above. --Janke | Talk 20:02, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

"Tacit agreement"

This paragraph actually said the same thing twice. So, I removed the "tacit agreement" part. --Janke | Talk 20:06, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

That change took into account my previous objections as well (I definitely agree about "more convenient") so that's good too. /Mathias_Johansson

Removal of persons-lists

I took the liberty of removing the list of prominent people. These lists really don't serve much purpose, are hardly encyclopedic and notoriously difficult to effectively delimit. If you really want to dabble in name-dropping, try to do it in the actual article text and not merely to list names. That these people are prominent isn't reason enough to mention them here.

Peter ^Isotalo 21:46, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

'Ethnic minority' is POV

The very first sentence of this article says that Finland-Swedes are an 'ethnic minority'. This is a very controversial claim, and is actually denied by most Finland-Swedes themselves, at least according to my personal experience as well as this document from the city of Tampere (the only thing I could find with a quick Google search). The ethnic group article, which is linked to from here, says as follows,

Ethnic groups share a common origin, and exhibit a continuity in time, that is, a history and a future as a people. This is achieved through the intergenerational transmission of common language, institutions, values and traditions. It is important to consider this characteristic of ethnic groups if we are to distinguish them from a group of individuals who share a common characteristic, such as ancestry, in a specific point in time.

Most of this certainly suggests that the Finland-Swedes are not an ethnic group (I mean, they don't even have a common origin, and don't try to claim there's such a thing as Finland-Swedish values).

Now, this has been discussed before (even on this page), but I'm creating a new topic to awaken people to the fact that the last discussion didn't actually result in anything being done. The article is still highly POV, and should be changed to reflect the fact that Finland-Swedes are nothing but a linguistic group (and one that's easy to become part of and disassociate oneself with as well). The ethnic Finn article is problematic as well, since aren't Finland-Swedes ethnic Finns as well? - ulayiti (talk) 15:57, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

I totally and absolutley agree with you, being a finlandssvensk myself. I definitely don't consider myself belonging to any ethnic minority, only to a linguistic one. (Wikipedia doesn't even have a Babel code for Finland-Swedish! ;-) I usually call myself a Swedish-speaking Finn (or even Finlander) when I correspond in English. Last time around editing, we tried to work around this problem by using weasel words, but I think a total rewrite would be in order. Shall we start a subpage where we can try it out? --Janke | Talk 09:34, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

That would be a good idea. I'd start it myself right now if I had the time, and access to Wikipedia from my home, which I unfortunately haven't got at the moment. But you go ahead and start it and I hope to be able to contribute as well at some point. - ulayiti (talk) 11:07, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

The temporary page is at Finland-Swedes/sub. I'll copy the entire article there, and make some changes. Others who follow this talk can contribute. After some time we can copy the stuff over to the article. OK? --Janke | Talk 13:18, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

Recent addition to previous section on this page: I am Finlandssvensk, but I now live in Sweden. I feel more like a Finländare, because of the fact that I feel that Swedes and Finlandssvenskar are two different groups. I feel that we finlandssvenskar have more common things with the finns. //Martin (copied here by--Janke | Talk 20:05, 21 October 2005 (UTC))

Well, more than two weeks with no opposition on this talk page, so I moved the section from the sub-page here. I also removed the active-discuss tag. --Janke | Talk 13:21, 6 November 2005 (UTC) (Svenska dagen... ;-)

I don't quite see the problem with defining Finland-Swedes as an ethnic group. "Ethnicity" is a very broad concept, and as far as I can tell "intergenerational transmission of common language, institutions, values and traditions" is exactly what Finland-Swedes have, even if it doesn't differ vastly from Finnish traditions. Just the fact that Finland-Swedes have their own language separate and unique from Finnish is more than enough to define them as a separate ethnicity. Calling Finland-Swedes just a "linguistic minority" is overlooking the fact that language is one of the primary common denominators of many ethnicities.

Peter ^Isotalo 20:16, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Swedish is an official language of Finland, alongside Finnish. Therefore officially there is no language division. - G3, 15:43, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Finno-Swedes, not "Finland-Swedes"

This and the related articles are basically a joke, as long as proper grammar isn't used for the naming convention. There's no such real word as "Finland-Swedes" or "Finland-Swedish", because there's a more correct and proper naming convention for cases involving two nationalities or nationalility adjectives spelled together as one word with a hyphen. Just look up in a professional encyclopedia like Britannica how Finno-Swedish is written. The main point is that both words get the right form, just like in Finno-Ugric (eg. Finno-Ugric peoples, Finno-Ugric languages) or Sino-Japanese (eg. the Sino-Japanese War). This note applies to also to eg. the "Finland-Swedish" page.

Just a note, the fenno-prefix is, to me at least, mainly used as an adjective, and I would interpret Fenno-Swedish as "Finnish-Swedish", which clearly has a quite different semantic meaning than "Finland-Swedish". 81.232.72.53 20:26, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

The equivalent of "Fenno-Swedish" or "Finno-Swedish" in Swedish would be finsk-svensk as in finsk-svensk diplomati ("Finno-Swedish diplomacy"). The term in Swedish is finlandssvensk, so I can see nothing wrong with current translation. The use of finlandssvensk has clearly been the most relevant because it makes a point about Finland-Swedes being ethnic Swedes (defined by culture, not genetics) who live in Finland and that Finland-Swedish is primarily Swedish spoken in Finland, not an equal merger of Finnish and Swedish.

Peter ^Isotalo 14:49, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Slight disagreement, if I may, as a finlandssvensk myself: Finland-Swedes are not ethnic Swedes, however the word "ethnic" is defined. The only thing separating us from the Finnish majority is our mother tongue, and indeed, our culture, but that is not the culture of Sweden-Swedes. There are significant differences, in some cases more marked than between us and the Finnish majority. --Janke | Talk 15:03, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

You're right. I didn't mean to equate them with Sweden-Swedes. Just to separate them from Finns. However, I don't think that speaking a different language is as superficial as is claimed. See above for further discussion.

Peter ^Isotalo 20:20, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Terminology

I'm not sure if it means anything but the Swedish Assembly of Finland (svenska Finlands folkting), "a semi-official body representing the Swedish-speaking population" (direct quote from their publication, see later), uses the English term Swedish-speaking Finns and the French term les suèdophones de Finlande in their own communications. Please see [4]. The principle of the right for self-designation should of course be followed, whatever is decided on this issue... Clarifer

This is indeed the term I prefer, being a Swedish-speaking Finn, myself. It is totally inambiguous, while "Finland-Swede" is not - it could be applied to Swede who has moved to Finland... --Janke | Talk 22:03, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

I agree. The people should be called 'Swedish-speaking Finns' and the language 'Finnish Swedish' (by analogy to 'American English', for example). We should try and establish consensus for a consistent set of terms to be used within the project. I propose a straw poll on the subject. - ulayiti (talk) 22:16, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

I think that the term Swedish-speaking Finn is actually ambiguous. To me this could mean any Finlander who speaks Swedish, regardless of their mother-tongue, e.g. one could say that Tarja Halonen is a Swedish-speaking Finn, as she is a Finn who is able to speak Swedish. However, this does not make her finlandssvensk of course. I agree that the terms Finland-Swede and Finland-Swedish are slightly confusing in English, especially as most English people will hear them with little context or understanding the first time, however, I think they are the best that there is. --94pjg 13:32, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
I agree with 94. Finland-Swedes are quite clearly defined as a group in Swedish-language encyclopedias and to a Swede it would seem very strange to call a person from, say, Malmö or Västerås who has moved to Finland a "Finland-Swede". Even people who confuse Finland-Swedish and Finnich-accented Swedish would probably make the distinction. Personally, I can only perceive "Finland-Swede" as being a confusing term for people who've never heard it before. The solution to this is obviously to encourage people to read the article for clarification, not to invent new hyper-correct terminology.

As for the right for self-designation, I am skeptical that the Swedish Assembly of Finland is representative of all Finland-Swedes, and it really seems more like politically correct POV than a relevant or intuitive self-designation. / Peter ^Isotalo 15:12, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Germanic language influence in Finnish

There is no doubt that Finnish has Germanic influence and many loan words. However, a few points may perhaps be allowed. 1. Not only Finnish but also all other Baltic-Finnic languages have Germanic loans. Therefore, the real source of such words in Finnish may not be directly a Germanic language itself but one of the close relatives of Finnish. 2. There are many layers of loans that can be considered Germanic and they do include also 'basic' words. 'Ja', however, cannot be found in any lists (at least I couldn't). Chronologically, loans from the postulated influence from the Corded Ware Culture would probably fall more on a pre-Germanic, pre-Baltic phase of the Indo-European languages in northern Europe. It has been estimated that from this period, words like 'kesä' (Summer) 'kasvaa' (grow), 'soutaa' (row) could have entered the (at the time) proto-Finno-Samic languages. 3. Words that look Germanic are in fact older Indo-European loans (i.e. from a pre-Germanic period). These would include 'nimi' (name, ancient Indian 'näma' Gothic 'namo'), 'kuka' (who, ancient Indian ku-tah, Gothic 'hvas') etc. There's no doubt that the Germanic languages (Swedish, which separated from 'eastern Norse' by the 13th century, inclusive) have influenced also Finnish over an extensive period of time. However, as with everything, this influence should not be exaggerated. The Baltic languages of the Indo-European group (with their own Germanic loans) may have had a far deeper and an older impact on Finnish, which might have earlier been interpreted as "Germanic" due to historical reasons. Clarifer

1, OK, but then the words are at least originally Germanic. 2. "Jah" is found in Gothic with the meaning "and". 85.226.122.205 16:55, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

the Finland-Swedish standard language

There's more to Finland-Swedish than just unofficial regional dialects... FST newscasters (who supposedly speak non-colloquial language) sound totally different from the Swedish ones. I think this deserves to be mentioned.

In what way do they sound totally different? They obviously have a Finland-Swede accent, which lacks the sing-song nature of a lot of Rikssvenska speakers that you will find on SVT or TV4 or other channels from Sweden. But, essentially, the language itself is virtually the same. Of course, many governmental system terms are different between Finland and Sweden, but that's largely because in Finland, the Swedish terms for the Finnish authorties will largely follow their Finnish-language versions (e.g. using ministry instead of department in describing the government's sub-units etc). --94pjg 00:20, 14 January 2006 (CET)

In Finland Swedish-language terms do actually not follow Finnish terms as such, but both the Finnish and the Swedish terms follow tzarist Russian terms. This is because the foundations of the Finnish administative system was built during Finland's time as an autonomous part of Russia during the 19th century. As for more modern terms Swedish language terms do follow the Finnish example in Finland, but after some akward translations in the 1960s-1980s, there is a very strong effort to follow the development of the language in Sweden.

(Primary) ethnic identity

Claiming that nearly all Finland-Swedes are simply ethnic Finns with an "alternative linguistic preference" is like saying that Russian-speaking residents of Latvia are merely Letts who happen to speak Russian. This may be the self-designation of some and the label given to these groups by some in the surrounding societies, but it is definitely not a universally accepted fact. See Talk:Finnish people and Talk:Swedish people. //Big Adamsky 07:12, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Well, after starting contributing to this subject on Wiki, I've asked dozens of Finland-Swedes what they themselves think. They come from all over Finland: Åland, Osthrobotnia, Uusimaa and so on. Not a single one could identify with being an ethnic Swede, not even the Ålanders! They all considered themselves Finns who speak Swedish. I know this is not a large sample, but since it is geographically diverse, I think it's valid. However, saying Finns with an "alternative linguistic preference" isn't right, either - they were "born into the language", even though born as Finns. --Janke | Talk 07:36, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

I completely agree with Janke. I have never met a Finland-Swede who considered themselves to be an ethnic Swede either. Every single Finland-Swede I have ever met has considered themselves to be a Finn and indeed invariably are very proud of their 'Finnishness'. 94pjg 21:15, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

I have never met or even heard of Finland-Swedes who refer to themselves as ethnically Finnish. (Being "proud" of where one lives or belongs doesn't affect ethnic identities radically.) But surely there are bound to be some who will self-identify as ethnic Finns with an exotic twist. =] //Big Adamsky 02:48, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Note here that there are many citizens in Sweden which do not consider themselves as ethnic swedes. I am not only referring to immigrants and non-scandinavian speaking minorities (like samis and Tornedalen finns) but also to e.g. scanians (from Skåneland/Scania), guts (from Gotland), jamts (from Jämtland) etc. I am a jamt myself, and do not label myself as ethnic swede, but rather ethnic jamt. This is probably analogous to how the Ålanders label themselves as being Ålanders rather than finns or swedes, ethnically. To me, the ethnic swedes are those who live in Svealand and southeastern Norrland. The rest are geats, guts, jamts, scanians, vestrobothnians/norrlanders etc.

Jens Persson, jepe2503 at hotmail dot com (30 Jan 06)

It's deeply rooted into the mindset of the Finland-Swedes that they are not (i.e. no longer) "Swedes". The current wording "Finland-Swedes and the Finnish-speaking Finns are usually considered one ethnicity" is however not the best, since Finns do not go around and feel ethnic - one may have nationalist feelings and patriotic feelings and political identity and religious identity and often a weak feeling of belonging to one or some of a set of different cultural regions (West, East, Far North, Woods, Lakes, Coasts, Archipelago, Capital, Province), but ethnic identification is of no relevance except with regard to the Saami people.

If now ethnicity is what necessarily has to be mentioned, then for sure it would be the best to word it more along the lines of "Finland-Swedes and Ethnic Finns in Finland have during some periods felt reason to exaggerate their differences, and at other times to emphasize unity and similarities. Today in Mainland Finland Finland-Swedes overwhelmingly consider themselves to be closer affiliated with the Ethnic Finns than with Ethnic Swedes, although with somewhat closer cultural similarities and ties to Sweden than what's the case for the Ethnic Finns in Finland." 81.236.184.210 10:45, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Well said! I absolutely agree with the above, and won't object if you put that into the article. - If I'd have to choose an "ethnicity" other than "Finland-Swede", it wold naturally be Finnish. However, I do also feel that "ethnic" is a bit too strong a distiction between our two language groups - in many bilingual families, it is simply a matter of choice, i.e. what one reports to the authorities. Sami, Roma, immigrants - they are of different ethnicity, naturally, as is a Swede born in Sweden, but who happens to live in Finland. --Janke | Talk 12:31, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

So, what [some of] you are essentially saying is that Finnish society on the whole is actually a lot more coherent and "naturally" bilingual in the "private sphere" (many mixed marriages and kindergartens, etc) than what is the case in, say, Ireland or eastern Canada or southern and western Switzerland? Interesting... //Big Adamsky 15:28, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

It's a bit difficult to compare, because in actual fact the only difference between Finland-Swedes and other Finns is what language they've reported as their mother tongue to the authorities. Anyone living in Finland can become a Finland-Swede simply by going to the registry office and giving Swedish as your native language. You don't even have to be a citizen (though I think actually being able to speak Swedish helps). And yes, people who change from Finnish to Swedish (or vice versa) are actually considered 'real' Finland-Swedes just as much as the next person. - ulayiti (talk) 02:01, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

I'll make yet another attempt to state what I perceive is the totally dominant view:

Finns, regardless of mothertongue, do not consider the difference between Finland-Swedes and "Finland-Finns" to be one of ethnicity, but chiefly one of language and of geographical region within Finland. This difference is to some degree also considered to be a difference of "culture" but not sufficiently much so to motivate a feeling of difference with regard to ethnicity. The concept of ethnicity is spared for other uses.

Åland is a particular case, some people, particularly them from Åland, might object against calling native Åland inhabitants for "Finns" - and let's now for the sake of simplicity forget about them.

There are a set of stereotypes connected to the minority, and the minority has as every minority reasons to protect its security and survival, but this does not affect the issue.

Minority status per se does not create separate ethnicities. At least not in Finland.

This is not to say that ethnicities are totally beyond the thinking of the Finns.

Saami people and Gypsie people are domestic ethnic minorities (although much smaller than the Finland-Swedes).

Then there are non-Finnic immigrants. They are considered "ethnic" too. :-)

But often not their children.

Where it gets really tricky is when discussing the Sweden-Finns. I do not know what proportion of Finns feel them to be ethnically different from the (Sweden-) Swedes, but I would guess that quite a few do so.

Who said people must follow logics?

81.236.184.210 15:27, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes, there are many mixed marriages.

No, there are not many mixed schools or pre-schools. Or at least not mixed classes. Education is the most prominent locus for segregation between the language groups. This segregation is considered a good thing that ensures the minority rights that go beyond them in any comparable country.

The society as such puts pride into its bilingualism, and not being fluent in both languages is a considerable disadvantage for politicians, corporative executives and that lot. Approximately 50% of the electorate voted for a Finland-Swedish woman for president a few years ago. Her Finnish is quite good, of course, but correspondingly were all serious presidential candidates in this year's election eager to show off their competence in "the other domestic language".

In the officially bi-lingual parts of Finland, the legal rights of the minority are not always equally accessible, for instance when visiting a police station in the evening you may discover that your knowledge in the majority-language is superior to their knowledge in the minority-language, why you conveniently give up your legal rights of communicating with governmental authorities in your mother tongue. This affects also Finnish speakers. Very few make a fuss about it.

From knowing very little about Canada or Belgium, it seems as the minority rights are far superior and also far better implemented in Finland. Similarly, the tensions are much more lenient.

There exists a strand of resent among the native Finnish speakers, that to its character is easiest to compare to populist xenophobic movements in other European countries. It's often mixed with a general anti-authoritorian antipathy against "the elite" in posh Helsinki officies. The strength of this current is hard to assess.

81.236.184.210 15:27, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Anon user's additions

An anonymous editor (apparently pushing an agenda against Finland-Swedes and the Swedish language in Finland; see contribs at Special:Contributions/84.231.217.70), repeatedly re-inserts POV material here. In the article Apartheid_outside_South_Africa the same anon. repeatedly inserts a section about Finland, claiming our country's constitutional bilingualism constitutes "Åpartheid". This is utter nonsense, and has been repeatedly removed by logged-in editors. The anon. also posts mock vandalism warnings on reverting logged-in users' talk pages. Please keep an eye on this, thank you. --Janke | Talk 22:07, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Hate mongering

I have no strong feelings about whether "Apartheid" as a political slur is used in very creative ways (I've given up on that). But when referencing phrases like "pampered minority" that needs to be followed by a general discussion of minority-majority relations. Otherwise it is just hate speech with an external source. Cf. Model minority and Consociational state. //Big Adamsky 21:12, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

The reference the anon. points to, as having appeared in several papers, is one opinion piece by one journalist, reprinted in other media. --Janke | Talk 07:38, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Back again

The same anon. is back again, inserting his/her POV, and doing a minor edit after that, to cover up. Just so you know. --Janke | Talk 06:54, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Today, the coverup was the edit summary itself: (I'm glad to finally see an accurate map, instead of propaganda). I agree about the map, though. The new one is better, the previous was just a quick fix I did to avoid a copyvio - not "propaganda", however! --Janke | Talk 14:10, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Terminology again

I can neither speak Finnish or Swedish, English is my mother tongue.

The term "Finland Swede" is simply not correct English. Whatever the political connotations, "Swedish-speaking Finn" is the correct term. You just cannot say Finland Swede - it's like saying "England Frenchman". It sounds like a typical error from a foreigner.

It is the best there is in English, it's not perfect. However, "Swedish-speaking Finn" could refer to any person from Finland who can speak Swedish, as many Finns with Finnish as their mother tongue can indeed do. Finland Swede makes the distinction that the individual is a Finn with Swedish as their mother-tongue. 94pjg 19:15, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Finland Swede is gramatically incorrect in English. Moreover it is simply not the correct term. The term used in the English language for many years for the Swedish minority in Finland is "Swedish-speaking Finn". "Finland Swede" says nothing about language the person speaks in any case. (IP: 85.210.29.96)

I removed the "disputed" tag you put up - you only dispute the terminology, not the actual article, right? Swedish-speaking Finn already redirects to this article, so anybody looking for that term will get to the right place. (In fact, I myself prefer "Swedish-speaking Finn", but I'm not so bold as to change it everywhere... PS; Please sign your posts, even just with your IP, or preferably, sign in with a username - thanks! --Janke | Talk 20:50, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

How About:

Finnish Swede
Fenno-Swede
Finno-Swede

The "Swedish-Speaking Finn" sounds so stiff, and they never refer themselves as Finns (finnar) in Swedish. Finlanders (Finländare) is a usable word, if they mean all the Finnish people. If they talk about only the Swedish-speaking residents of Finland, they say "Finland Swedes" or "Finland's Swedes" (finlandsvenskar/finlandssvenskar) or only "Swedes" if it can't be confused with the Swedes living in Sweden. So let's choose one of the above terms. I'd like to point out that the term "finn" in Swedish language means also "acne". --84.231.134.30 09:50, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Finnish Swede, Fenno-Swede, Finno-Swede - They are no better than Finland-Swede. I'm not a Swede! I am a Finnish citizen, who happens to have Swedish as my first language. The best alternative is Swedish speaking Finn, but there seems to be opposition to that, and it is somewhat clumsy. BTW, it's not finn that is acne, it's finne. --Janke | Talk 11:21, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

What I meant was that "En finne" is "acne", as well it is "a finn". Finnish-speaking people are sometimes offended about this. --84.231.134.30 18:06, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

"Swedish speaking Finn" is correct, although clumsy. Look prior in discussion to see why your three proposed alternatives all are incorrect: [[5]] 惑乱分からん 22:38, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

"This is wrong, most Finland-Swedes do not speak Finnish. Some do, but most of them do not. Most Finland-Swedes feel a greater affiliation to Sweden than to Finland. They watch television, listen to radio from Sweden, read books from Sweden - all this in Swedish. Of course they not feel like they are living in a foreign country, after all, they have lived there for thousands of years - longer than the Finns! But they feel that they are Swedes, and that it is their country at least as much as the Finns. Den fjättrade ankan 01:19 May 5, 2003 (UTC)"

None of that is correct... Finland-Swedes would laugh at that if they would read this!

Wouldn't "Swedish Finns" be the best English description for these people. If you wanted to specify the majority, you could call them Finnish Finns. This terminology is more in line with normal English, I think. Since most Swedish Finns feel they are Finns (and now I mean Finn in the normal English use, not ethinicity), the description Swedish Finn would tell us that, indeed, this is a Swedish Finn. Think of French Canadians (5 060 000 hits in Google) - same thing. We don't call them Canada Frenchmen.

The dialect (but not the people speaking it) could be called "Finland Swedish".

By the way, Finlander and Finland-Swedes are words that won't survive in the English usage.

Cheerio from Sweden --Wahlin 01:40, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't think 'Swedish Finns' would be a good description, since they're not 'Swedish'. In my opinion, 'Swedish-speaking Finns' would be the best option, but 'Finland-Swedes' is all right too, as it's based on the actual Swedish usage. - ulayiti (talk) 10:08, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

And Finnish usage: Suomenruotsalaiset.

As another mother-tongue English-speaker, I have to mildly disagree with 94pjg. The term 'Finland Swede' is at least totally transparent: it means a Swede of Finland (i.e. neither a Swede of Sweden nor a Finnish-speaking Finn). True, it's not the term I would have been most likely to volunteer myself, which is 'Swedish-speaking Finn', but it's not really wrong, if we want to stress the territorial aspect of Finnishness. 'Finnish Swede' doesn't pack the same territorial punch, and 'Swedish Finn' – well, that makes sense to me by analogy with 'English Canadian', but it may confuse others. Anyway, 'English Canadian' is just conversational shorthand for 'English-speaking Canadian', which brings me back to 'Swedish-speaking Finn'... Quartier Latin1968

01:24, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually, you've convinced me: I'd even prefer 'Swedish Finn' over 'Finland-Swede'. But 'Swedish-speaking Finn' still sounds best. Should we have a straw poll to get a clearer view on what the majority opinion is on this? - ulayiti (talk) 15:04, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Best to call these people Swedish Finns in English

We are discussing the best English term for a minority of Finnish citiziens.

Saying that someone is a Swedish Finn does not mean that they are "Swedish". If a boxer is light heavyweight, he is not "light", but light heavyweight. Someone who lives in British Columbia is not "British", but a British Columbian. A Russian Jew (who lives in Israel) does not consider himself to be a Russian, I think, but a Russian Jew.

In the construction Swedish Finn, the Finn is the noun, and the adjective Swedish adds a property to this noun.

French Canadians are not "French", but they are, in fact, French Canadians. The French Canadian is actually a good example of a large majority in an otherwise English-speaking country. The French Canadians by the way, support Canada in ice hockey, not France (no surprise, of course). These French Canadians can be quite well corresponded to the Swedish Finns. And French-speaking Canadians and Swedish-speaking Finns are too clumsy constructions. Words must be efficient if they want to be used. Let's call them French Candadians and Swedish Finns. Nice constructions of adjective + noun, easily understood by everyone.

I think the Swedish term "Finlandssvensk" is an unhappy one, and svenskfinne would be better. But since finlandssvensk has been throroughly rubbed in by now, I guess we have to stick with it in Swedish. Especially since conversely a Finnish Swede is called "Sverigefinne". Just don't try to spread these terms into English. They are not typical for Swedish either. A man of Swedish descent in the US is called "svenskamerikan" (Swedish American) and not "amerikasvensk". The good old French Canadians are called "franskkanadensare", not "kanadafransmän".

--Wahlin 17:58, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

These things seem difficult to standardize. Your idea is good and logically sound in an American English (sic! ;) language context of course. Could it be that in Swedish the term 'finlandssvenskar' (the people) has originally been derived from 'finlandssvenska' (the name of the Swedish language variant) rather than from 'Finland's svenskar'? (svenskar as an ethnic group is fairly modern?) If so, it follows the pattern of language variants like e.g. "Swiss German" (Schwyzerdütsch), "Swiss French" etc. etc. I'm not sure, but I've never heard of German Swiss people or French Swiss people. The people are just Swiss who speak a certain language as mother tongue ;) (Similarly: French Belgians for Walloons? Dutch Belgians for Flemings? Would seem a bit strange?) In Finnish, the relevant term is 'suomenruotsalainen' which is in line with the pattern of e.g. 'kanadanranskalainen' (French Canadian) or 'ruotsinsuomalainen' (Finnish Swede? Sweden-Finn?). These are nouns with a meaning of their own. E.g. 'suomenruotsalainen' is very seldom understood as 'Suomen ruotsalainen' which means 'Finland's Swede'. Should we now introduce the use of lower-case letters into the English language in this context? ;) Clarifer 08:42, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Swedish Finns can be confused to Sweden Finns. --Lalli 10:57, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Discussing what is best is irrelevant. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and should thus reflect common usage and not invent new terms. Common usage in English, whether you think it is logically correct or not, is "Swedish-speaking Finn". Noone knows what a Finland Swede is whereas plenty of people know the term Swedish-speaking Finn. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.178.105.9 (talk • contribs) 14:55, 12 September 2006 (UTC).

Yes, you are right, and most of the comments by all the apparently mostly non-native speakers above are unfortunately not correct or relevant. Please see discussion below. --Espoo 17:32, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Tampere not bilingual

The map shows Tampere as a "bilingual city with Finnish speaking majority". This is not true: Tampere is really unilingually Finnish.--80.186.100.180 12:26, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

To my understanding the Language Act defines a bilingual municipality as one with at least 3000 registered speakers of the second domestic language. I'm pretty sure that in a city of ca. 200000 inhabitants this holds true. [6] Clarifer 07:42, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

In this link: http://www.kotus.fi/kielitoimisto/nimisto/paikannimet/kaksikiel.shtml#2suomi Tampere is not on the list of bilingual cities and it IS mentioned on the list of Swedish names for FINNISH speaking cities. Anyone visiting Tampere can also see that it is not bilingual, since the street names are only in Finnish. 80.186.100.180 01:06, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

I stand corrected. The map should be edited then. Clarifer 06:36, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Tammerfors is definately unilingual Finnish. There are some Finland-Swedes living there, for instance there are church services and a (possibly private) Swedish school. However, the number is just a handfull; too low to make Tampere bilingual. 94pjg 10:09, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Didn't anybody read the info on the map's image page? It clearly states Tampere is unilingual, but has 1,000 Swedish speakers. I've copied that text into the map's caption. --Janke | Talk 15:13, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Why then is Tampere marked on the map at all?81.175.134.236 21:46, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

I laughed a bit when I read this. And now I want to know how to mark this whole article as politically biased lies.

Swedish missionaries

"Christianity was introduced to Finland from the east a couple of hundred years before)"

This is very a simplistic and partial view. Of course, there were some early influences of Eastern Christianity, but sure as hell there were Swedish and other western missionaries too. This is elementary knowledge of Finnish medieval history, so there is no reason to ask for citations.--217.112.242.181 10:45, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Crosses and Christian tombs have been found 100, 200 years before the alleged crusade in 1150s. So, if the land was under Christian influence, why would there be need for missionaries? I think it seems quite likely that the Swedes only (later?) described the conquest as a crusade to justify their aggression towards Finns. --Jaakko Sivonen 13:59, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Archaeologically documednted Christian influence during the 11th century or possibly before was exactly that: "influence", not a complete conversion. Of course, it did not eliminate the need for missionaries later. The crusade myth probably is a later construct, but it has nothing to do with missionary thing. Finland had some Christianity already before the Swedish takeover, but the process certainly was not finished, and missionaries certainly were involded even later stages. Please read some books of this and avoid making your own conclusions.--217.112.242.181 16:42, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Jaakko is right in mentioning a most probable occurence of Christianity in Finland before the 'crusades' but that does not mean that the Swedes did not bring missionaries. Once again, it's pointless thinking of Finland as a modern state almost a thousand years ago. The presence of Christianity in some parts of the country does not mean that the whole area that constitute Finland today was Christian, nor was it after the Swedish 'crusades' were over. JdeJ 18:12, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

BTW, could give some sources for the claim that large numbers of immigrants from Sweden arrived with the missionaries? --Jaakko Sivonen 20:58, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

I tried to give a more neutral formulation for it.--217.112.242.181 11:08, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was Move. Duja^► 15:31, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Finland-Swedes → Swedish-speaking Finns — Despite widespread use in Finland, "Finland-Swedes" is not correct English; it is an incorrect translation of the Swedish and Finnish terms that have "Swedes" as the noun for historic reasons. (Arose prior to birth of concept of nation-state, so "Swede" meant "speaker of Swedish", not "citizen of Sweden". In addition, historical and genetic studies have shown that Swedish-speaking Finns and Finnish-speaking Finns are not different ethnic groups and have intermarried and switched language use back and forth extensively.) The correct English term for the Swedish language minority in Finland would be "Swedish Finns" (similarly to "French Canadians", who are also not called "Canada French(men)"), but this is not possible because "Swedish Finns" is also incorrectly used, especially in Sweden, to refer to Finns that have moved to Sweden and to the Finnish minority that has lived there for a long time (which should be called "Finnish immigrants" and "Finnish Swedes" respectively.) Therefore the only correct English term that is unambiguous is "Swedish-speaking Finns". Espoo 18:45, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

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Support - I am a PhD student in linguistics and a native speaker of English who has lived in Finland using Swedish as my main language, and with social networks consisting mainly of Swedish-speaking Finns. I do not feel strongly about making the change, but I do agree that "Finland-Swedes" is a simple translation of the terms "finlandssvenskar" and "suomenruotsalaisia" and sounds a little funny in English - the same way the "France Canadians" (as opposed to the better-sounding French Canadians) would sound strange. I suppose the reason "Finland-Swedes" is parsable is because most people who use it are familiar with the terms in the other languages. So more grammatically correct English might be "Finnish Swedes," but then this doesn't seem to be the right term, since these people don't self-identify as being from Sweden. I think "Swedish-speaking Finns" is the most appropriate, since it neither sounds like non-native English nor creates ambiguity about which group of people is meant. I have heard the term "Swedo-Finns" which I also think is fine, but it is less transparent and might be harder to find in a search. Yuni123 21:06, 24 October 2006 (UTC)Yuni
Support. Being a Swedish-speaking Finn myself, that's the term I've used in English correspondence. Note however, that the person(s) doing the change will have to edit about 80 pages that refer to "Finland-Swedes" in order to be consistent (see "What links here"). A simple page move won't fix this. --Janke | Talk 06:56, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

I'll gladly volunteer to do that. It's high time this remnant of the cultural isolation of Finland during the Kekkonen era disappears, and it's a disgrace to the Swedish Finns (especially since they have always had more international contacts than the Finnish Finns) that they're still described by erroneous terms in the most international language. I'd advise any Swedish Finns that want to help get rid of this disgrace to send their feedback to Forskningscentralen för de inhemska språken. (They're primarily responsible for this mess.) --Espoo 08:43, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Support "I agree that the use of "Finland Swedes" should be discontinued. In spite of the fact that it is widely used in Finland and Sweden, it is not proper English and would likely be confusing to English speakers hearing the term for the first time. "Swedish Finns" would not be confusing (except for the fact that most people seem to be surprised to learn that there are Swedish speakers in Finland!), and "Swedish-speaking Finns" would be equally clear." -- statement made by David Jansson, professor of geography at Vassar College in Poughkeepsie, NY, for this discussion and sent to me by private correspondence. He adds "Feel free to use that in my name. (And in case you need to know, I was born and raised in the US, am a professor of geography at Vassar College in Poughkeepsie, NY, and I have roots in Åland, Finland, and I have recently learned how to speak Swedish.)" And as explained on http://geologyandgeography.vassar.edu/jansson.html, "he is currently working on a research project in Scandinavia examining geographic identity among Swedish Finns." (My emphasis) --Espoo 06:53, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Support the term "Swedish speaking finns" is more correct than "Finland-Swedes", which would mean the swedes (svensson :) ) living in Finland. While it is exactly what is used in Swedish (Finlandsvenskar) or Finnish (Suomenruotsalaiset), but a literal translation to English loses its meaning and is not correct.--A Jalil 22:23, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Discussion

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As noted in the discussion above, the most representative organisation of Swedish Finns uses the term "Swedish-speaking Finns". (http://www.folktinget.fi/pdf/publikationer/SwedishInF.pdf

http://www.folktinget.fi/en/index.html)

The Society of Swedish Authors in Finland also uses "Swedish-speaking Finns"
Despite apparently incorrect English use in Sweden, "Swedish Finns" in academic English use means what it should, namely the Swedish speaking minority in Finland (compare Swedish Americans, Finnish Americans, Italian Americans, etc!), as all the search results for http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&lr=&q=site%3Aedu+%22Swedish+Finns&btnG=Search seem to indicate:

http://www.emich.edu/symposium/abstracts2002/students/long.html

http://cognition.clas.uconn.edu/~jboster/research/working_papers/maltseva.pdf

http://davidwit.bol.ucla.edu/biography1.htm

http://ohioline.osu.edu/~ockint/countries/Finland.doc

http://www.naha.stolaf.edu/oldsite/publications/volume27/vol27_15.htm http://209.85.129.104/search?q=cache:D-fw4twXi8MJ:www.naha.stolaf.edu/oldsite/publications/volume27/vol27_15.htm+site:edu+%22Swedish+Finns&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=24

(This one may be an exception due to the writer apparently being a visiting professor from Finland or Sweden: http://geologyandgeography.vassar.edu/jansson.html ) Edit: I've corresponded with the author and he also uses "Swedish Finns" in the normal English way that means "Finnish citizens that are native Swedish speakers" (which corresponds exactly to hundreds of other designations in English such as Finnish Americans and Italian Americans).

http://www.cambridge.org/catalogue/catalogue.asp?isbn=052183225X&ss=ind (uses "Swedish-speaking Finns" throughout book)

--Espoo 18:59, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

This has been discussed earlier - but frankly, does it matter? There's already a redirect with that name, so anyone searching can find it, and get a redirect here. If you do change it, you'll have to change the link names on a lot of pages (check the "What links here" on this article). I won't oppose, but I won't do it either... --Janke | Talk 18:56, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, i know it's been discussed before, but the result was that the incorrect name is still there. "Finland Swedes" and especially "Finland-Swedes" is incorrect English and therefore does not fulfill Wikipedia:Naming conventions --Espoo 19:02, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Swede-Finns?

Sorry if this has already been discussed... this is a long talk page! I just wanted to say that I'm half "Swede-Finn" through my mother, and have never heard any term for this other than "Swede-Finn". My grandfather was born in Finland and came to the United States. Even in old age when I knew him he spoke Swedish and little to no Finnish. But I never heard him or anyone else say he was a "Swedish-speaking Finn". He was a "Swede-Finn". And I've met other Americans with this ancestry who also call such people "Swede-Finns". So I wonder, is there something wrong with this term? Is my experience unusual? Is "Swede-Finn" not the common English term for the people this article describes? Just wondering.. I don't know that much about it, despite my heritage. (and btw, although my mom's family were Swedish speaking, they always identified with the country of Finland and not Sweden. My mom's side of the family is from Finland -- they are Finnish... but happen to be Swedish-speaking Finns, as I understood it. What I personally got from this heritage was a feeling of connection to Finland, not Sweden. Pfly 08:52, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

That's a good point, but it seems to reflect an older language situation, and a situation in which a small group of immigrants spoke about itself without majority input to correct the language error. In English, we say "Spanish American" and "Turkish American", and it's plain bad English to say "Spaniard American" or "Turk American". (And adding a hyphen doesn't help; on the contrary, it's probably a second error. UK English likes to add hyphens more often than US English to compound nouns, but it's usually avoided whenever possible in UK English too.)

More importantly, the expression is very confusing to most English speakers who don't already know a lot about the situation. "Swede-Finn" would make most people think "huh, what are they now, Swedes or Finns?". I would go so far as to say that the inherent ambiguousness of noun+noun instead of adjective+noun is not only bad or at least very unconventional English for describing a people; it may even have been a prime factor in causing the confusion about Finland and its relationship to Sweden and Swedish among the few English speakers who even know where Finland is... The following Googles on edu sites and Google Scholar searches give an indication of usage frequency among careful and educated English speakers although they of course need to be analysed in detail before making any real deductions:

46 hits for site:edu "Swedish-speaking Finns"

41 hits for site:edu "Swedish Finns"

13 hits for site:edu "Swede-Finns"

207 hits for "Swedish-speaking Finns"

60 hits for "Swedish Finns"

13 hits for "Swede-Finns"

--Espoo 09:18, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

In defense of the English language skills of these usually not well-educated immigrants (as were most US immigrants), i should add that due to "Finn" being in the noun position, "Swede-Finns" is still much better English (despite the idiosyncratic use of the wrong demonym for the modifier) than "Finland Swedes", which is not only linguistically incorrect but also sociologically and logically erroneous and nevertheless used by many even highly educated Finns in English... --Espoo 08:17, 26 October 2006 (UTC)