Talk:Surgeon's knot

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External links

There are several other different knots commonly known as the surgeon knot. The knot shown here is not one that I have encountered before. Here are some examples in common use:

http://www.basspro.com/servlet/catalog.CFPage?appID=84&template=knot5.cfm :this link doesn't work
http://www.flymartonline.com/article211.html :this link doesn't work
http://www.killroys.com/knots/surgeon.htm :this link doesn't work

There are also knots referred to as a surgeons loop, useful for creating a loop in a fishing line, for example:

http://www.animatedknots.com/surgeonsloop/index.php?LogoImage=LogoGrog.jpg&Website= :This is an double-overhand-knot with a Bight
http://www.basspro.com/servlet/catalog.CFPage?appID=84&template=knot6.cfm :this link doesn't work

...and the double surgeons knot or surgeons join knot:

http://www.animatedknots.com/surgeonsjoin/index.php?LogoImage=LogoGrog.jpg&Website= :This is also a double-overhand-knot with two single opposing strands --StromBer (talk) 10:14, 6 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I moved the above section off the article page to here because of the first-person comment, and because some of the external links added may not meet the criteria of Wikipedia's exsternal links guideline. -- Donald Albury 00:19, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

@StromBer: Your edit above has mangled the formatting of the existing comment in violation of the talk page guiidelines. Please revert your edit, and then, if you still wish to comment on the above material, please do so following the advice at Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines#Editing others' comments. Please note, though, that the above material was removed from the article and copied here thirteen years ago, and so it is not surprising that some of the links no longer work. - Donald Albury 15:56, 6 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I have only commented on the lines, but did not change anything in the text, so that anyone who wants to rest this page can immediately see that they no longer work.--StromBer (talk) 16:04, 6 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@StromBer: Please note the guidelines say, "Generally, you should not break up another editor's text by interleaving your own replies to individual points; this confuses who said what and obscures the original editor's intent. In your own posts you may wish to use the {{Talk quotation}} or {{Talkquote}} templates to quote others' posts." And again, I do not understand why you are commenting on material that was removed from the article thirteen years ago. It has gotten rather stale. - Donald Albury 17:04, 6 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

You-tube videos

(Following comment moved from User talk:Donald Albury)

Good man, there was a reason for changing Surgeon's knot video. The English version is wrong! This knot is shown incorrectly at the base with just a simple overhand knot. The first knot must be started with a Double overhand knot. If you want it to be an English-language video, you have to pay attention to it. Thank you. --StromBer (talk) 15:47, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

If the video is incorrect, then it should be removed. However, I have some concerns about replacing it with a German language video.

While non-English sources are allowed, they are discouraged. Most readers of the English Wikipedia do not know German (I took 2 years of German [50 years ago], but I am certainly not fluent).
Wikipedia is not a how-to guide. While we are talking about the External links section, where a link to a how-to guide might be acceptable, there is no pressing need to include such a link.
How do we judge whether a video is a reliable source for how to tie the knot?

In short, I would prefer to remove the current link to You tube and not replace it with the link to the German language video. - Donald Albury 17:29, 30 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The video is wrong. The second sentence already writes this. ....Adds an additional twist when tying the first throw and forms a double overhand knot.... And in "your" video just a simple overhand knot is shown, no matter how many surgical hand movements are shown there. Even in the different German videos, the correct processes are not always shown. --StromBer (talk) 19:34, 30 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

As I tried to indicate above, I have no objection to removing the video from The Brain Sturgeon. I would like to see opinions from other editors on whether the German language video is appropriate as an external link. - Donald Albury 21:58, 30 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

There are so many videos that just don't show it properly. And I think it's important that here in Wiki is shown correctly.

Surgeon's startknot =Double overhandknot While this video says it was made for a surgeon's knot, it shows ONLY the first double overhand knot with different finger movements.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Av2gp-3mKwE?t=216 This demonstration is fundamentally correct. In the end, he doesn't just tie an overhand knot. But again two more overhand knots, i.e. a total of 1x double overhand knot and 3x one overhand knot. So there are 2 overhand knots 'too much'.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATe4Tw23Etk This demonstration is also fundamentally correct. Finally, he makes several overhand knots. These are correctly knotted cross knots (square or reef knots).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGygK6sbIC4?t=61 This is a fishing knot with 6 x inside overhand knots and has nothing to do with a surgical knot & Squarknot.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rN3ZNiRge8 And finally three variants, including a shoe knot version with a double overhand knot.--StromBer (talk) 12:22, 31 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I have asked for input from others at Wikipedia:External links/Noticeboard#Linking to a video on how to tie a knot. - Donald Albury 18:49, 31 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I saw the note at ELN. It doesn't matter whether the video is a reliable source, because ==External links== are not supporting article content. Non-English links have to be marked and are discouraged (even more than a non-English source), but they are not prohibited.

I think there might be several good options, and I've left at note at WT:MED to see if anyone can help identify a good one. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:55, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

How about I simple create a video of a double tie followed by 4 single ties. Which is described as a surgeons knot here.[1]

Specifically the ref says "The first throw in the knotting sequence is often looped or twisted twice, producing the surgeon's knot." This is the technique I standardly use.

I can do one as a tool tie and one as a hand tie. We can get this on either a real person or on a suturing practice device. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 08:32, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

seems like a very good idea, I would be in favor of Doc James suggestion--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 10:19, 5 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Can either of you find such a video? (It doesn't have to be on YouTube, but it should work for people all over the world.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:46, 7 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I could make one eventually... Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 08:42, 7 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That could be uploaded to commons, then no longer an external link --valereee (talk) 14:04, 8 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I associate surgeon's knots with walking boots, which aren't mentioned in the article for some reason. There are videos for using them with boots.[2] Doug Weller talk 12:17, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]