Jump to content

Talk:National anthem of Ukraine

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

correct text of the Ukrainian anthem

[edit]

it is shame that everybody in Ukraine know only the phrase "Shche ne vmerla Ukraina" and no more. Even this rank is not correct and this discrepancy is seen again in the Wikipedia article:

in the same article we can find incorrect "Shche ne vmerla Ukraina" and lower is the correct "Shche ne vmerla Ukrainy...". The difference in the last word, just ONE character is very significant for the Ukrainian as well for other Slavic languages. "Shche ne vmerla Ukraina" can be translated as "Yet Ukraine is not dead", but "Shche ne vmerla Ukrainy..." is just the beginning of the more long phrase "It has not perished the Ukraina's ... GLORY!!!!!!!!!" Just try to read the next text.

Ukraine is the country where citizens sing the own anthems incorrectly.

actaully, the way we sing it is correct, just as it always has been.
The article explains it all. The original poem was "Shche ne vmerla Ukraina" (Ukraine has not yet died) and for the official hymn the first stanca was changed to "Shche ne vmerla Ukrainy i slava i volya" (Ukraine's glory and freedom have not yet died). You can see this easily by the first edition shown in a photograph on this page and the section "post-independence". As of now, the beginning of the article is not consistent. The phrase

The lyrics are a slightly modified version of the first verse and chorus of the patriotic song "Šče ne vmerla Ukrainy", written in 1862 by Pavlo Chubynskyi, an ethnographer from Kyiv.

does not make sense. It needs to be "Šče ne vmerla UkrainA" when talking about the poem of 1862. As noted by others, it wouldn't be even correct grammatically with genitive ending -Y and missing the subject of the sentence (literal translation: "It has not yet died Ukraine's". Ukraine's what? That is NOT a song title, neither in Ukrainian nor in English.) And

Šče ne vmerla Ukrainy" was officially adopted by the Verkhovna Rada—Ukraine's parliament—on 15 January 1992.

needs to be changed to

Šče ne vmerla Ukrainy i slava, i volia.

. If you read the law, it does not even give a "name" for the anthem, it names the author and the lyrics with the changed first stanca.

178.54.9.23 (talk) 14:15, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Why?

[edit]

The majority of national anthems on Wikipedia do not appear to translate their name into an English version, but rather transliterate it. Is this anthem commonly published in translation, or referred by a translated name in published journals? I can only spot the translation given after the actual name of the anthem on other websites. Also, the translations I've spotted are not uniform with regards to what is the proper translation. I mention this not to change the translation, but to point out that with different translations available, I would assume that the most name for this anthem on the web would be its Ukrainian name.--tufkaa 17:41, 25 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that this should be moved... —dima/s-ko/ 22:50, 5 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I will move this article to Shche ne vmerla Ukrainy as most national anthems have their native name as the title as stated above by Tufkaa. Just doing so there won't be any conflicts. —dmytro/s-ko/ 18:59, 17 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Seems like a logical step. Actually, where this English text is coming from? I don't want to fall into copyright paranoia, but back in 2003, when this wikipage was created, and ever since, it seems like the English text literally corresponds to [1]. --KPbIC 01:24, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Will move right now. —dima/s-ko/ 02:14, 22 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Latynka

[edit]

I took the liberty of removing Latynka, as unlike in neighboring Belarus, the Latin alphabet never gained much traction here and doesn't seem relevent enough to include here.

Full text of Shche ne vmerla Ukrayina

[edit]

This article really needs the full text of, but this requiers someone with a talent for translating poetry. --unsigned

Please sign your entries. Also, please do not confuse the song by Verbytsky with the anphem. The latter, while based on the original song, differs from it. It is shorter and is actually codified in the Ukrainian law adopted by Verkhovna Rada. You recent edits obscured that difference. Please correct the article yourself. --Irpen 19:46, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

i don't see where you're comming from. i simply changed a link to point to the former Serbian anthem and pointed as someone has previously said on talk that the original version is in common usage, organized the text, transliteration and translation into a table and commented out the alterante transliteration and a direct translation which are a sort of curuosity, not directly relevent to the article. i haven't deleted anything.
the article indeed doesn't clear stress the diffrence between the two though, only hinting it the last paragraph. in the Ukrainian pedia we have two distinct articles about the National Anthem and about the poem though this doesn't look like a good idea to me.
either way including the full text not only is appropriate in an article about the anthem is a good idea as it is relevent to a song derived from it and will help point the distinction. i'll get around to it myself some time, though i suppose it will come out sounding like the removed literal translation --Teche richka Tysa 21:19, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Having two separate article is a fine solution as well. But since we have one, we need to make it clear that Verbytsky's song and the anthem are two different things. Related but different. --Irpen 21:24, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

i'm afraid you're confused here, the anthem uses the exact song by father Mykhaylo (Verbytsky), only the lyrics by Pavlo Chubynsky have be modified, the last paragraph does state that they ere modified. --Teche richka Tysa 21:31, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I meant the latter. The lyrics are different. The anthem is shorter as well. --Irpen 21:34, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Original text

[edit]

Okay, I've worked a bit on this but it still sounds a bit rough so I'll post it here first for further improvment exposing it to more eyeballs:

orginial version published in 1863 (note the archaic orthography)
Ukrainian English transliteration English translation

Ще не вмерла Україна,
И слава, и воля!
Ще намъ, браття-молодці,
Усміхнеться доля!
Згинуть наші вороги,
Якъ роса на сонці;
Запануємъ, браття й ми
У своїй сторонці.

Shche ne vemrla Ukrayina,
Y slava, y volia
Shche nam, brattia-molodtsi,
Usmikhnet'tsia dolia!
Z-hynut' nashi vorohy,
Yak rosa na sontsi;
Zapanuiem, brattia i my
U svoyii storontsi.

Ukraine has not yet perished,
The glory and the freedom!
Still upon us brave brothers,
Fate shall smile!
Our enemies will vanish
Like dew in the sun;
We too shall rule
In our country.

Душу, тіло ми пложимъ
За свою свободу
И покажемъ, що ми браття
Козацького роду.
Гей-гей, браття миле,
Нумо братися за діло!
Гей-гей пора встати,
Пора волю добувати!

Dushu, tilo, my plozhym
Za svoiu svobodu
Y pokazhem, shcho my brattia
Kozats'koho rodu.
Hei-hei, brattia myle,
Numo bratytsia za dilo!
Hei-hei, pora vstaty,
Pora voliu dobuvaty!

Soul and body we'll lay down
For our freedom
And show that we brothers
Are are of the Cossack nation,
Hey, hey dearest brothers
Onward take to battle
Hey, hey, time to rise,
Time to gain freedom!

Наливайко, Залізнякъ
И Тарас Трясило
Кличуть насъ изъ-за могилъ
На святеє діло.
Изгадаймо славну смерть
Лицарства-козацтва,
Щобъ не втратить марне намъ
Своєго юнацтва.

Nalyvaiko, Zalizniak
Y Taras Triasylo
Klychut' nas yz-za mohyl
Na sviateie dilo
Yz-hadaimo slavnu smert'
Lytsartstva-kozatstva,
Shchob ne vtratyt' marne nam
Svoieho iunatstva.

Nalyvaiko, Zalizniak
And Taras Triasylo
Call us from beyond the grave
To the holy battle.
Recall the famous death of
Chivalarious Cossacks
Not to lose vainly
Our youth.

Душу, тіло ...

Dushu, tilo ...

Soul and body ...

Ой Богдане, Богдане
Славний нашъ гетьмане!
На-що віддавъ Украіну
Москалям поганимъ?!
Щобъ вернути іі честь,
Ляжемъ головами,
Назовемся Украіни
Вірними синами!

Oi Bohdane, Bohdane
Slavnyi nash het'mane!
Na-shcho viddav Ukrainu
Moskaliam pohanym?!
Shchob vernuty ii chest'
Liazhem holovamy
Nazovemsia Ukrainy
Virnymy synamy!

Oh Bohdan, Bohdan
Our great hetman
What for did you give Ukraine
To wretched muscovites?!
To return her honor,
We lay our heads
We shall call ourselves Ukraine's
Faithful sons!

Душу, тіло ...

Dushu, tilo ...

Soul and body ...

Наші браття Славяне
Вже за зброю взялись;
Не діжде ніхто, щобъ ми
По-заду зістались.
Поєднаймось разомъ всі,
Братчики-Славяне:
Нехай гинуть вороги,
Най воля настане!

Nashi brattia Slaviane
Vzhe za zbroiu vzialys';
Ne dizhde nikhto, shchob my
Po-zadu zistalys'.
Poiednaimos' razom vci,
Bratchyky-Slaviane:
Nekhai hynut' vorohy,
Nai volia nastane!

Our Slavic brothers
Already took up arms
No one shall see
That we should stay behind.
Unite together all,
Brothers Slavs:
So that enemies perish,
And freedom comes!

Душу, тіло ...

Dushu, tilo ...

Soul and body ...

Notes and historical context —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Teche richka Tysa (talk • contribs).

Small correction on current text

[edit]

I’ve changed "vorozhen’ky" to "vorizhenk’ky" in the new (post-2003) version; I don’t know if it should be changed in the older version as well. My source is the government’s site: http://www.kmu.gov.ua/control%5Cuk%5Cpublish%5Carticle?art_id=1170478&cat_id=31295 (Nice feature, this automatic signing!) Geke (talk) 21:43, 10 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

[edit]

It makes abunch of refrences to people like Taras Fedorovych, and others that most people don't know about. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Burntwaffle1 (talk • contribs) 19:30, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed split

[edit]

Since the 2003+ version has a different name and lyrics, should it get it's own article separate from this, the historical-original anthem? How should we handle the article naming since the name changed? --Львівське (говорити) 23:01, 30 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Lvivske, please read the 2003 Verkhovna Rada Law. Ukrainian anthem is no longer "Shche ne vmerla UkrayinA", "Shche ne vmerla UkrayinY". Also, As per the 2003 law (see the sources in article), the official name of Ukrainian anthem is the "State Anthem of Ukraine". Again check the source on Ukrainian website.
Per alternative translations, they are only given to show different English translations. If you consider that geosites is not a reliable source, I have no objection if you remove that translation. As a matter of fact, feel free to delete that entire "Alternative translations" section, if you feel that it doesn't contribute to the article, but please don't change the name of the anthem (it's simpsly no longer "Shche ne vmerla Ukrayina", it's "State Anthe of Ukraine" with first stanza "Shche ne vmerla Ukrayiny"
-> the lyrics have not been officially adopted by the Verkhovna Rada, so the pre-2003 lyrics should be called draft (and not original). Original is the full length poem of Chybynskyi
-> per you "original research" edit, all the information from the old verson of the first paragraph is now incorporated in the "History" section, so there is no loss of data. Where exactly you you saw Original Research is unclear (sources are present throughout the article, including its 1st paragraph.
pps. Per your split suggestion, feel free to create a seperate article (from the current "State Anthem of Ukraine" article, entitled the "Shche Ne Vmerla Ukrayina". You can use Ukrainian article of the same name on Ukrainian Wikipedia uk:Ще не вмерла Україна as the source --Rkononenko (talk) 16:31, 16 March

2014 (UTC)

this is your own original research, they did not rename the anthem "state anthem of ukraine", it's just a bill on the state anthem. Also, you can't come in here, rename the article to your own title, and then say "if you want the old one back, make a new article" as that's patent WP:OWN --Львівське (говорити) 17:24, 16 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Can you clearly state which sentences do you consider original research? As I have already said, no one is removing sources and information. All of information from the 1st paragraph is incorporated into the history section. If you feel that the information in the 1st paragraph should be preserved (even though it's repeted in length in the History section), please say so.
Per you comment they did not rename the anthem "state anthem of ukraine", it's just a bill on the state anthem.. it's simply pathetic. If you knew Ukrainian language and could actually read sources provided in the article, Ukrainian anthem (from 1991-2003) was NEVER called "Shche ne Vmerla Ykrayina". I repeat NEVER. Officially (i.e. legislatively via the Law of Verkhovna Rada and Artice 20 of Ukrainian constitution) up until 2003 Ukraine ONLY had music as an official anthem. Lyrics were NOT officially established up until 2003. Your claim that "state anthem of ukraine", it's just a bill on the state anthem. shows utter lack of knowledge on the subject.
Lastly, your claim that I have made any original research is simply not true. All my sentences have sources to back them up (if you actually bothered to read).--Rkononenko (talk) 17:44, 16 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
you citing a primary source (the bill itself) and saying they changed the name of the anthem based on...i have no idea...is original research. --Львівське (говорити) 18:37, 16 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
They didn't change the name, it's always been "State Anthem of Ukraine". Think at least for a second: how can the name of UA anthem be "Shche ne Vmerla Ukrayina" if prior to 2003 legislatively Ukrainian anthem consisted entirely and only of Vebytskyi's music. The lyrics were only adopted in 2003. Your claim about original research is clearly made out of thin air.--Rkononenko (talk) 19:06, 16 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Again, this is primary source interpretations coupled with your opinion. That's original research.--Львівське (говорити) 18:03, 17 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I think you are mistaking translation for interpretation. I'm merely translating the facts stated in Ukrainain laws passed by Verkhovna Rada & Article 20 of Ukrainian constitution. You claims about original research have literally no grounds behind them.--BezosibnyjUA (talk) 20:43, 17 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
You have yet to use a single secondary source or anything that qualifies as WP:RS. Your translation is wrong, the document you cite says nothing about the name, everything you have done so far is entirely made up in your head. Provide a source or stop edit warring. --Львівське (говорити) 00:20, 23 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion on whether to include "

[edit]

Below is a proposed section "Variation of English translation". Please express your opinion whether you think it should be included or not.

Since there's no official English translation of the State Anthem of Ukraine, a number of English translations have been done to date.


--Rkononenko (talk) 16:36, 16 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

These aren't reliable sources (youtube, oocities, random kyivpost op ed). The KP one especially is not a translation, but an original alternate version meant to sound better in English, by the person who wrote it for their youtube video.--Львівське (говорити) 17:23, 16 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Well, in many ways non-literate translation is in fact an attempt to convey the meaning/idea of the original and not the exact same words. Especially for something that is intended to be a song, and needs to fit a specific music tune.--Rkononenko (talk) 17:48, 16 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ https://www.kyivpost.com/content/kyiv/ukraines-national-anthem-sung-in-english-video-339533.html KyivPost: Ukraine's rousing national anthem sung in English (2014)
  2. ^ http://www.oocities.org/igorlytvyn1/ukraine-anthem.html GeoCities: Ukrainian Anthem
  3. ^ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__SIpQFAxV4 Ukrainian Anthem Translated onto English

Article name

[edit]

Since 2003 Ukrainian anthem is uses the modified lyrics of Chybynsky. The first stanza is changed to "Ще не вмерла України" instead of "Ще не вмерла Україна". It makes no sense to call the article after this first stanza, since you can't even translate it into English (you need the rest of the stanza for that). That is, by using the 1st stanza as the name (instead of the official name State Anthem of Ukraine) we end up with this: "Shche ne vmerla Ukrainy" (Ukrainian: Ще не вмерла України, or "Ukraine's ? hasn't died"), where we have to put ? in the sentence. Therefore, the article name should be (and in accordance with the Ukrainian law) State Anthem of Ukraine.--BezosibnyjUA (talk) 22:19, 22 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

provide a single reference that isn't a primary source legal document and we'll have something to talk about. So far the only source is the parliament bill that says "state anthem of ukraine" (because its a document about the state anthem) and says nothing about that being its official name. As such, you could imagine a government document about The Star-Spangled Banner having reference to "State anthem of the United States" somewhere in the title. Topic title does not mean official name. --Львівське (говорити) 22:58, 28 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

3 published sources on the name of the anthem:

--Львівське (говорити) 01:28, 29 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The Ukrainian article gives the name as "Держа́вний Гі́мн Украї́ни", so it should be renamed to that. – Illegitimate Barrister (talk • contribs), 02:15, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Decent translation of title

[edit]

Come on, guys. There's got to be a better translation than "Ukraine has still not died", which is an ugly literal translation that either a first-year English major in Kharkiv or Google Translate came up with. How about "Ukraine Has Not Perished" or "Ukraine Lives Still" or something like that? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.71.39.237 (talk) 06:06, 20 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Correct Title

[edit]

The title of Ukraine's anthem should be The State Anthem of Ukraine per Ukrainian Cabinet of Minister (and all other official Ukrainian government sources): https://web.archive.org/web/20070613233953/http://www.kmu.gov.ua/control/en/publish/article?art_id=236020&cat_id=32672 ; Please request an article to be renamed into "The State Anthem of Ukraine"--Rk578 (talk) 00:44, 26 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I'd support move to "National anthem of Ukraine" to be more generic. We can identify the anthem as "State Anthem of Ukraine" in the lead sentence. – Illegitimate Barrister (talk • contribs), 11:54, 2 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 9 March 2022

[edit]
The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved to State Anthem of Ukraine. Though WP:CONSISTENT doesn't appear to hold here, due to the general inconsistency throughout Category:National anthems, the move still had a strong justification for support via WP:UE and WP:RECOGNIZABILITY. The nominator discussed both "National Anthem of Ukraine" and "State Anthem of Ukraine" as possible titles for the article. While most supporters of the move were neutral on the "National" vs. "State" wording, there was some disagreement on whether the "National" wording should capitalize the word "Anthem", so I felt that "State Anthem" had the strongest overall consensus behind it. (non-admin closure) ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 19:14, 6 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Shche ne vmerla Ukrainy i slava, i volia → National anthem of Ukraine – There has been several talk page messages about the title and it has been moved a few times without proper discussion. Per WP:ENG also per similar articles such as National anthem of Russia. Alternatively move to State Anthem of Ukraine in line with other articles such as State Anthem of Turkmenistan as that is the official name. - CHAMPION (talk) (contributions) (logs) 23:24, 9 March 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. ---CX Zoom(he/him) (let's talk|contribs) 22:17, 28 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support for "State Anthem of Ukraine" only because it is the official name of the anthem. Not opposed to "National anthem of Ukraine" either. CentreLeftRight ✉ 07:51, 10 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support per WP:UE. BilledMammal (talk) 12:06, 10 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support This is the English Wikipedia. Crossover1370 (talk | contribs) 16:09, 10 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
"Shche ne vmerla Ukrainy i slava, i volia" (Ukrainian: Ще не вмерла України і слава, і воля)
"The glory and freedom of Ukraine has not yet perished"
"Shche ne vmerla Ukrainy"
"Ukraine has not yet perished"
Wiki-psyc (talk) 14:32, 11 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

"Ukraine Is Not Yet Dead" listed at Redirects for discussion

[edit]

An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Ukraine Is Not Yet Dead and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 March 10#Ukraine Is Not Yet Dead until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Liz Read! Talk! 02:43, 10 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

And there was strong consensus there to keep it. Many other redirects were also noted in that discussion, and others were suggested as good additions. Andrewa (talk) 13:56, 5 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

English translation of first line

[edit]

In the absence of an official English translation, we must be careful to translate the current official Ukrainian text accurately. I'm not well-acquainted with Slavic languages nor Ukrainian in particular, but I know quite a lot about grammar in European languages. The current lyrics are different from earlier versions, so we cannot use the same translation as for 1862 ("Ukraine has not yet perished, nor her glory and freedom"), nor of 1992–2003 ("Never perished is Ukraine, nor her glory or will"). 'Україна' was changed to 'України', a comma was deleted, and 'ні, ні' was changed to 'i, i'. That changes the meaning of the sentence significantly. Now, слава, nominative, is the subject of the sentence until the comma; України is genitive and refers to слава. 'i, i' means 'and [A], and (even) [B]' or 'both [A], and [B]', as opposed to 'ні, ні' ('neither [A] nor [B]') in earlier lyrics. Many English translations are possible, but 'Ukraine' is not the subject; '[the] glory' is.

Given the comma between і слава and і воля, the word воля ('will'; 'freedom' is less accurate, and already 'taken' by свободу a few lines down) may not necessarily grammatically refer to України. As a matter of fact, in the original 1862 version Ще не вмерла Україна, і слава, і воля!, all three words are nominative, and as such, each of them function as subjects rather than referring to each other. There is no reason to translate і слава as 'her glory' (which would be її славу or її слава) or і воля as 'her will/freedom' (which would be її воля or її волю), unless one adopts a non-literal translation or incorrectly believes 'і' and 'її' mean the same. What the original sentence literally says is 'Still not (has) died Ukraine, and (the) glory, and (the) will'. The three nouns are equal in the sentence. The only reason why they are not completely separate is that вмерла is feminine singular past tense; if it had been plural, вме́рли, it would have meant '(have) died' and the three subjects were separate, but just grouped together for the purpose of this sentence. Be that as it may, the current lyrics work differently; 'glory' is a possession of 'Ukraine', 'will' may or may not be, but 'glory' and 'will' are still subjects, while 'Ukraine' is not a subject anymore.

Moreover, the English 'neither [A] nor [B]' construct works better for the previous 'ні, ні' negative summation than the positive 'i, i'. Therefore, removing 'neither' at the start brings us closer to a literal translation of the current official text. The best I can come up with is thus 'The glory of Ukraine has not yet died, and even the will,' but that doesn't work well in English, because this rendering suggests the will did die, but the Ukrainian text implies both have not yet died. So we kind of have to imagine that the second 'i' is actually 'ні', i.e. 'nor the will'. That's why I changed the text to 'The glory of Ukraine has not yet died, nor the will,'. Scholars of Ukrainian can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this is far more accurate than simply copypasting the English translation of the 1992–2003 version, because that is surely not accurate anymore. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 11:05, 18 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The verbatim translation would be 'Has not died Ukraine's and glory and freedom' i changed it it 'Ukraine's glory and freedom have not perished"
Her glory comes from 'України' which detonates possession. Translating 'воля' as 'will' doesn't really make sense. In this sentence 'вмерла' refers to all the nouns you wouldn't use 'вмерли' here i don't really know why exactly it's just wrong (sorry i'll have to turn over why in my head a bit)
The verbatim translation would be 'Has not died Ukraine's and glory and freedom' so i changed it to 'Ukraine's glory and freedom have not perished'
'ні' and 'i' are functionally the sameish in this context, in that the meaning of the sentence doesn't change when using one or the other. Also both 'and' and 'or' would be fine as translations of 'i'
I made some other minor tweaks too that hopefully make it more sense in english.
Only big thing is 'Brothers' being in the vocative case is kinda awkward in the middle of sentences in english so moving it to the front might be better but slightly less literal???—blindlynx 19:37, 19 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 30 March 2023

[edit]
The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) ❯❯❯ Raydann(Talk) 09:02, 6 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

State Anthem of Ukraine → National anthem of Ukraine – For a long time it has been in fact only national (anthem of the nation), now it is both national and state anthem. VSL (talk) 20:14, 30 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move: State Anthem of Ukraine → National anthem of Ukraine. @Amitchell125 @Andrewa @Blindlynx @Champion @DDima @Hvn0413 @Illegitimate_Barrister @Lvivske @ModernDayTrilobite VSL (talk) 18:02, 2 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support, for the WP:CRITERIA of naturalness, and precision over the long run.  —Michael Z. 04:37, 5 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Commentary on the reverting

[edit]

1st source (Горбань О. А., … / Запорізький національний університет):

  • “15 січня 1992 року Президія Верховної Ради України затвердила музичну редакцію Державного Гімну України «Ще не вмерла Україна»…”,
  • “Кошовенко В. В. Пісня, приречена на безсмертя : [історія Державного гімну України «Ще не вмерла Україна»]…”,
  • “Побірченко Н. С. Чубинський Павло Платонович (1839-1884): видатний діяч українського національного відродження, педагог, етнограф, юрист, організатор Південно-Західного відділу Імператорського Російського геогр. тов-ва, автор державного гімну "Ще не вмерла Україна"…”,
  • “Михайло Михайлович Вербицький (1815-1870) - автор музики державного гімну України «Ще не вмерла Україна»…”.

2nd source (Байкєніч Г., … / Український інститут національної пам’яті):

  • “Нинішні символи України – тризуб, синьо-жовтий прапор, гімн “Ще не вмерла Україна” обрані державними ще тоді…”,
  • “Державним Гімном України є пісня “Ще не вмерла Україна” на слова Павла Чубинського і музику Михайла Вербицького…”.

3rd source (Заславська Л. В., … / НДІІП НАПрН України):

  • “Здобуття незалежності України у 1988-1991 рр. супроводжувалося активним відродженням та поширенням місця і ролі національного гімну «Ще не вмерла Україна»…”,
  • “Проте, за часів незалежної України в період з 1991 до 2003 року і до моменту прийняття Закону України «Про Державний Гімн України» слова національного гімну «Ще не вмерла Україна» широко звучали…”,
  • “Президент Л. Кучма вніс, а Верховна Рада України прийняла вкрай усічений варіант слів національного гімну «Ще не вмерла Україна» (лише перший куплет та приспів) як слова Державного Гімну України…”.

From the official webportal of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine: “Under the Resolution, celebrations of the 200th birth anniversary of Mykhailo Verbytskyi should be held on March 4, 2015. MPs sang the Ukrainian anthem "Shche ne vmerla Ukraina" ("Ukraine Has Not Yet Died"), the music of which was written by Mykhailo Verbytskyi.”

And, *.gov.ua sites and a number of books in Google search results are valid sources.

I suggest “Shche ne vmerla Ukraina” for the infobox’s title, because this anthem’s name is more common and recognizable ([5], [6] / [7], [8] / [9], [10] / [11], [12]), traditional (as a state anthem’s title, since 1917 vs. 2003 for “Shche ne vmerla Ukrainy i slava, i volia”), and is shorter. VSL (talk) 10:45, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Why don't you take a gander what the Ukrainian wiki says about it.--Aristophile (talk) 12:30, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
User is already blocked indef in RuWiki for destructive editing in Ukraine-related articles (like edit warring in the same article with absurd argument "consensus can be unachievable, so there is no need in consensus to change an article") and blocked indef in Wikidata 'cause of spamming to evade his block in RuWiki. If he starts to show such behavior here too, makes sense to get admins' attention. Siradan (talk) 06:46, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Unlike Siradan’s unjustified rollbacks due to “no consensus”, my editing in Russian Wikipedia never was destructive. By the way, Russian-speaking users here may check out the similar discussion that I started there. VSL (talk) 08:42, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I therefore have strong suspicions that Siradan is an WP:SPA, and VSL practically operates as an WP:SPA. Both are showing signs of knowing way too much about the policies and guidelines for what should be relatively inexperienced users, and seem to be treating this and other pages as WP:BATTLEGROUNDs. Perhaps they are WP:NOTHERE to build an encyclopaedia, but to WP:RGW? In any case, while VSL may have started out as a legitimate account, the tagging they did on me and other users could violate WP:CANVASS, and Siradan might need to be checked for WP:SOCK. I think those are issues we need to work out first before discussing contents. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 15:27, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for that summary.
I was invited. I haven’t even figured out what the content dispute is about (apparently the correct title, but other stuff too?) and don’t have an opinion on what or who is right.
Can we pick a stable version to revert to for now? Once the disputing parties are sorted out, then can the points of the dispute be described clearly?  —Michael Z. 15:38, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Good suggestion, I agree. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 15:41, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There was stable version of a title before VSL's edits. Siradan (talk) 17:12, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
We should stick to the version that reflects the Ukrainian law apropos the subject. Alternative wordings are mentioned in the article. Basically - no change was needed before VSL came along.--Aristophile (talk) 17:23, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
See Wikipedia:COMMONNAME. VSL (talk) 17:35, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That's about article title, not about infobox. More so, if you're referring to this rule as a reason to change info in template, you must rename whole article at first. Siradan (talk) 17:41, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I consider this a general recommendation for titles. Anyway, “Shche ne vmerla Ukraina” is the most common name, which is its advantage. VSL (talk) 18:17, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
No, it is not. And the Ukrainian law is clear.--Aristophile (talk) 18:23, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
[13], [14] / [15], [16] / [17], [18] / [19], [20]. And the 2003 law doesn’t set the anthem’s title. VSL (talk) 19:01, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The only user who has violated the policies in the context of this topic is @Lute88 with his two unjustified, not explained and rollback-abusive reverts. The mentioned users made edits to this article or talk page, so they were pinged as probably interested in this discussion. VSL (talk) 16:41, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"Both are showing signs of knowing way too much about the policies and guidelines for what should be relatively inexperienced users" — Answer to this is that I'm an active user of Russian Wiki, so yeah, I'm knowing too much for inexperienced user. The reason for my activity on this particular article is that while I was editing Russian version I became aware of VSL's crosswiki activity, which included spam on Wikidata. Siradan (talk) 16:50, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
WP:HOUNDING. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 18:18, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Precisely speaking, this user’s disruptive behavior is not hounding but snitching in Ru-Wiki and now, after my total blocking there, across other wikis. VSL (talk) 10:01, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nope, not in this case. As I explained earlier, VSL used Wikidata as a way to evade their indef block on RuWiki. Actually, my first interaction with them happened when VSL was already blocked indefinitely and was anonymously editing this article. So, when I saw the same changes on other Wikis, I just edited articles 'cause I'm familiar with a topic. Siradan (talk) 18:27, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I think this only confirms both of you should be investigated for conduct. That's all I have to add. I'm going to leave this pointless rule-breaking battleground until the conditions are apt for discussing the contents. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 21:33, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I explained to you why your claim about sockpuppeting was false from the beginning. If you just want to see bad faith — well, I have nothing to say. Siradan (talk) 21:43, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Shche ne vmerla Ukraina
English: Ukraine has not yet perished
Ukrainian: Ще не вмерла Україна
National anthem of Ukraine
Also known asUkrainian: Ще не вмерла України (н)і слава, (н)і воля (English: Ukraine's glory and freedom/will have not yet perished)
Shche ne vmerla Ukrainy i slava, i volia
English: Ukraine's glory and freedom/will have not yet perished
Ukrainian: Ще не вмерла України і слава, і воля
National anthem of Ukraine
Also known asUkrainian: Ще не вмерла Україна (English: Ukraine has not yet perished)
Shche ne vmerla...
Ukrainian: Ще не вмерла…
National anthem of Ukraine
Derzhavnyi himn Ukrainy
Ukrainian: Державний гімн України
National anthem of Ukraine
Also known asUkrainian: Ще не вмерла Україна / Ще не вмерла України (н)і слава, (н)і воля (English: Ukraine has not yet perished / Ukraine's glory and freedom/will have not yet perished)

The following wordings are suggested to select from for the infobox’s title:

1. Shche ne vmerla Ukraina
Support. This title is confirmed by reliable (including official) sources (see above) as both national and state anthem’s name, is more common and recognizable (see the links above), more traditional (as a state anthem’s title, since 1917 vs. 2003 for “Shche ne vmerla Ukrainy i slava, i volia”), and is shorter. VSL (talk) 10:01, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Simplest and most recognizable version. This is an identifying title header, not a transcript of the lyrics nor a breakdown of their variations. The version with parenthesized (n)i is least desirable here. —Michael Z. 17:49, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
(The translations do not need the legend “English:”.)  —Michael Z. 17:50, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think we need any transliterated title in the infobox at all. The "National anthem of Ukraine" is perfectly sufficient.--Aristophile (talk) 18:05, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There is much simpler and less controversial title, which was in article before VSL's changes: "Derzhavnyi Himn Ukrainy". Siradan (talk) 20:52, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I think the title should be in English, as this is English wiki.--Aristophile (talk) 13:13, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
And come to think of it: all other anthem pages don't use 1st line tranlit in the infobox titles. They all say National anthem of X in the original language.--Aristophile (talk) 13:51, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This is how the infobox works: if the transcription is set, it will be used for the title. And note that the description “National anthem of…” is in any case generated by the infobox below the image, so it would be redundant to use it in the title. VSL (talk) 15:57, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It should say The National Anthem Of, but in the original language. That is standard.--Aristophile (talk) 18:07, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
2. Shche ne vmerla Ukrainy i slava, i volia
Rather oppose. Neither popular nor short. This variant should not be preferred only because it is official, since the national anthem was not created by the Ukrainian state and existed long before the 2003 law. VSL (talk) 10:01, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
3. Shche ne vmerla Ukrainy ni slava, ni volia
The most commonly performed variant. VSL (talk) 10:01, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
4. Shche ne vmerla Ukrainy (n)i slava, (n)i volia
Combined wording. Would be my 2nd choice. VSL (talk) 10:01, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
5. Shche ne vmerla...
Unified name. Use cases in reliable sources: [21], [22], [23], [24], [25], [26], [27], [28], [29], [30], [31], [32], [33], [34], [35], [36], [37], [38], [39]. VSL (talk) 06:09, 15 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
6. Derzhavnyi himn Ukrainy
Oppose. Not the anthem’s proper name; less common and recognizable for English readers; not informative; incorrect because the anthem is also national, not state only. VSL (talk) 06:09, 15 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is that some kind of poll? It can't be legit, 'cause you totally ignored previous version of infobox, which you tried to change: Derzhavnyi Himn Ukrainy. Siradan (talk) 20:49, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    That’s a description in a foreign language, not any title. You might notice it’s actually uncapitalized державний гімн України in the uk-wiki article, for example. Per WP:USEENGLISH we’d just write Ukrainian national anthem.  —Michael Z. 22:38, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    It's not so trivial, "Derzhavnyi Himn Ukrainy" sometimes used as a title with capitalization, see example. But even if we ignore that, there is no problem in using description for infobox. Well, VSL still didn't show the reason why changes were made. Siradan (talk) 05:21, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I don’t doubt that there are plenty of counter-examples. That one is government affiliated and refers specifically to a law, and Ukrainian laws are likely to use the official form from the Constitution of Ukraine,[40] where the name of this national symbol is in all initial caps. (I believe in conventional Ukrainian style, song titles normally only have the first word capitalized, not every word.) I don’t believe that justifies us capping the English translation when referring to the anthem in encyclopedic style, but one could debate the nuance. —Michael Z. 19:47, 2 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    My main point is that title "Ukrainian national anthem" is good and should be considered. Caps or not, Ukrainian or English — not a big deal imo. I would rather not discuss such nuances, so I'll accept any opinion on that matter. Siradan (talk) 20:35, 2 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    In the anthem infobox, anthem’s titles should be used, not descriptions, which make no sense there. And the word “гімн”/“himn” should not be capitalized in these designations: [41], [42], [43]. VSL (talk) 07:22, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    So you started campaign to involve people in the discussion, which was designed by you as a poll of some kind, and excluded variant, which, as you think, should not be used at all, am I right? Siradan (talk) 08:13, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/National_anthem_of_Austria --Aristophile (talk) 13:52, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Lead paragraph

[edit]

I've moved transliterations, pronunciations and the Cyrillic script of the name(s) into footnotes, which cleans up the lead paragraph. I'm not sure about whether the Cyrillic script versions or transliterations should be the first thing visible, so I've gone ahead and moved the Cyrillic versions into the footnote seeing to match the infobox title. I don't speak Ukrainian myself so feel free to move the Cyrillic version back if that's what would fit better. Thanks! Splatterxl – talk 14:11, 3 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Retrieved from "https://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=Talk:National_anthem_of_Ukraine&oldid=1256973051"