Talk:St Olave's Grammar School

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Headmaster Suspension

On 19/10/17 it was stated that due to an investigation by the Local Authority (Bromley), the Headmaster Mr Onac was to be suspended. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-41683012

Please add this to the page — Preceding unsigned comment added by TomSmithy56 (talk • contribs) 22:33, 19 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Added citation. Paul W (talk) 20:54, 30 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Untitled

Who is able to help edit this page?

The school's original site was under what is now London Bridge Station and moved to Tooley Street sometime in the 19th century, does any one know exactly when and the name of the original site? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.135.212.3 (talk) 18:23, 24 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

See 'Carrington' - the answers are the first site was in the vestry hall of the 'new' churchyard close to where the junction of Joiner Street - Duke Street Hill now is from 1571. The second site was on Bermondsey Street north of Crucifix Lane, this part is a tunnel under the railway station, from 1835 (James Field). The third site is that at Tooley Street / Potters Fields from 1855 (Henry Stock). In 1892 this building was replaced, in situ, by the present building (Edward Mountford) Grade II Listed exterior and some interiors. 79.75.50.148 (talk) 10:49, 19 May 2008 (UTC) Tony S[reply]

Ummmm, Hugh Broadbend is not the School chaplain anymore. Conveniently, I've forgotten the name of the new chaplain. Im a student at St Olaves btw

The current Chaplain is Andrew McClellan. JJE (talk) 11:24, 4 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Notable alumni

I'd minded to rid of the dates here. If people want to find out when somebody lived, they only have to click on a hyperlink to follow the relevant bio. See, for example, the entry on Haberdashers' Aske's Hatcham College Astral Highway (talk) 11:54, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Title/Name

The title of this article should really be "St Olave's and St Saviour's Grammar School", which is to my knowledge still the official name of the school. Does anyone object to renaming it? --Pavlos Andronikos (talk) 13:17, 16 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Old Olavians renaming

At present there is a discussion relating to the renaming of this category. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at this discussion page. Please note that the discussion is not a majority vote so contributions should be based on Wikipedia policies and independent sources. Cjc13 (talk) 13:39, 12 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 5 September 2017

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

change chair of governors from "The Revd Professor Peter Galloway" to "vacant" 81.151.88.66 (talk) 15:34, 5 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. jd22292 (Jalen D. Folf) (talk) 15:58, 5 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Parking a reference

The story seems to be developing. Weale, Sally (12 September 2017). "St Olave's chair of governors resigns after exclusion controversy". The Guardian. Retrieved 12 September 2017. ClemRutter (talk) 20:29, 12 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed it does, this is bizarre and obviously wrong.

In the meantime, could someone deal with "The revelation has revealed" in the lede, please? That is obviously wrong too. MPS1992 (talk) 21:36, 12 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I have made an attempt MPS1992.SovalValtos (talk) 22:13, 12 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

"Highly" selective

There are two problems with the use of this word in the lead sentence;

It is supported by two cites that neither use the word "Highly", nor mention St Olave's Grammar School. They therefore verify nothing on this article and shouldn't be there.
It is an opinion. As far as the reader can tell, someone, who knows who, has looked at the school's selection process and decided that it is "highly" selective. Unless it is the opinion of an authority on the subject, and cited appropriately, it is a worthless opinion.

I also am unclear why this aspect of the school is so important that it needs to be the very first thing mentioned about the school, even before its location. If their selection process is notable there is plenty of space lower in the article to fully expand and explain it in a factual manner.

--Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 17:58, 30 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. There is a further mention of highly selective in the third paragraph of the lede. If this assessment can be supported by a verifiable source, this might be an appropriate place to mention it (and then expand in a later section), but, in my view, not in the opening sentence (there is also another issue relating to "boys' secondary school" in that sentence - the school has admitted girls to its sixth form since 1998, as is mentioned, eventually, under "General information".) Paul W (talk) 19:32, 30 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I agree it shouldn't be in the lead and summed up like that – it would better be summed up in prose in the main body of the article with info about how the selection process works. – filelakeshoe (t / c)  20:09, 30 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

OK. I've removed the "highly" from the lead sentence. It's mentioned and explained better later in the lead. Also removed the cites that verified nothing said in the article. Happy to hear any further comment. --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 21:17, 5 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

As you have suggested I bringing over the existing discussions from mu talk page

Using the adverb "highly" is voicing an opinion, so the same really applies if you had added "ridiculously" or "barely". If you have sources that define how they are selective in a factual manner, then feel free to add. I'm not certain why this needs to be in the lead sentence though, calling them selective would appear to be adequate. --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 21:03, 29 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Escape Orbit: I was just on your talk page- I think the comment stands, but we can discuss it here:

"Greetings. I agree 'highly' could be seen as POV. However I don't believe you had time to read Peter Read's article and the Telegraph article, or to google further before you, in good faith, reverted. This has been a serious issue in Kent and Bromley since 1968! Would you like to study the literature and suggest an alternative wording that will not be seen as party political. If you read the current controversy at Olave's you will see that this little word was deliberate. I hasten to add I did not write the original text."--ClemRutter (talk) 21:08, 29 October 2017 (UTC)

Its all in the references, on receiving Circular 10/66 and 11/68. the 2 local authorities fought tooth and nail not to introduce comprehensive education. Kent did so by looking at the wording, and putting forward a scheme- where it would trial comprehensive schools in 4 small areas saying if the experiment was successful then they would roll them out gradually. Bromley introduced comps- but redefined two schools as super-selectives, a term no-one had heard off, these were 'locally' described as highly selective schools with their own entrance exams. The reference tell the story, and provide the source WP needs for use of one of the words.

The dilemma is that for the general reader, super-selective is just an obscure technical term, that would need a lot of explanation while 'highly' is a common (albeit POV-laden) word. Missing it out would suggest that Bromley was breaking the law (a deeply held Labour Party belief). As a former governor of a Kent Comprehensive, I daren't go too deep as that could generate a WP:COI allegation. -- ClemRutter (talk) 21:34, 29 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I understand the problem. "Highly" appears to be an opinion, "super selective" is obscure, and appears to be something a pupil might jokingly add. My question is; does this need to be in the lead sentence? Can the school's selection process not be covered later in the article, where it can be explained properly? Why does it need to be the very first thing said about the school? --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 17:47, 30 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Escape Orbit and Black Kite: If I had an answer- I would have quietly been "bold". Pupils in Bromley, Bexley, NW Kent would not joke about this- though they might elsewhere. A thousand sets of parents compete to get their nice kids into one of the 120 places- by extreme coaching, tutoring Saturday and Sunday classes, memorising past papers- buying test questions- all so they won't end up going to a grammar (sic) school. The other side of the problem is that Olaves is not a 'selective' school. It does not appear on the list of 'selective' schools they may go to if they pass the Kent test (Eleven Plus). These would include Bexley Grammar School, Dartford Grammar School, Betts, Syd and Chis etc. Comparable Direct grant grammar schools in the north of England such as Manchester Grammar School went independent. In short, it is the most significant fact that a parent needs to read- it is the most significant fact that a journalist needs to read before they try to explain the nature of the existing scandals. Sadly it needs to be in the lead.

So, back to 'highly'. A solution may be to use a hyphen, highly-selective may work, or just leave be and attach a {{efn}} that could contain a synopsis of this discussion. ClemRutter (talk) 20:37, 30 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

If it is, as you say, the most significant fact then it should be easy to find a source to cite. I've yet to see one that supports this description for either school. It also can't be emphasised enough that Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia, not a parents' guide to good schools. (I also doubt any parent with designs on sending their child to either school is using the lead sentence on Wikipedia articles to instruct them.) Your suggestion of a {{efn}} also looks like a suggestion that original research and synthesis may function as a cite. It may not. Please find a source to directly support what is appearing on the article. --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 21:48, 30 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Here, just trying to be helpful- If I had the solution I would have done it. You could try this its not a site I have probed for RS. Now Chelsfield this is RS]- and may be what you are looking for. A blog in a RS Huffingdon Post is possible too. A commercial site talks about coaching for super-selectives but adds Dartford Grammar to the list (which personally I query) along with Skinners and Judds that I can accept. [The Telegraph] attempts to define super-selectives (note hyphen) in terms of scoring on the Kent Test (417 out of 420), and the good school guide links to a description of pass marks on the Kent test.

All this providing of references seems too close to OR and WP:SYNTH for the purist. Do you find what you need there? Failing that I see that there is another solution emerging, that may work. Write a stub on super-selectives, written from the perspective of the Kent test criteria- then link to super-selective from the Olaves ans NW page- it would satisfy my objection to writing a falsehood, and your objection to 'highly'. It would be time consuming to work that up past a 'B' though. ClemRutter (talk) 23:53, 30 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Of the links you provide, I think this one] gets closest to what is needed, and it's not brilliant. This one has the air of a personal website to it. It offers no indication of who runs it and doesn't look professional. The others, as you indicate, merely discuss what a super-selective school is and provide no verification about Olave's or Newstead Wood.

I ask again; why do you think that this confusing definition has to be in the lead sentence at all? If it requires explanation and a factual demonstration of accuracy then there is plenty of space in the article to expand on it. Your idea of a super-selective stub may work, but an easier solution is simply to remove it from the lead. It's not essential that it appears there.

Could we also continue this discussion on Talk:St_Olave's_Grammar_School, so that other may better contribute? --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 13:41, 31 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I am sorry but your solution just doesn't work. By removing the ugly word 'highly' we are reducing information in the article, in the lede and in the first sentence of the lead. Paragraph 3 uses the word 'highly' in an entirely different context- as an explanation of L6/U6 transition, while the lede needs to explain that this is a super-selective. Before family duties dragged me away, I started to look at writing a simple stub on this- but in brief, found the term is used differently now than it was in the 1990s. Then (Olaves and Newstead Woods) were the only two of a type of school, now that is still true in Bromley but it is used in Kent, to describe any Grammar school where the entry procedure involves passing the Kent test (pass mark 320 out of 420) then additional requirements. This can be a second exam, or a higher pass mark on the test (Tonbridge- 415 out of 410)."Secondary 2018/19: List of individualcriteria". www.kent.gov.uk. Retrieved 6 November 2017..

in the meantime so we retain accuracy I can change the lede to super selective as a holding position. ClemRutter (talk) 10:35, 6 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I understand your position ClemRutter, but if you want this information to be in the article, and prominently so, you really need to source it. Is there a source that identifies the school in this way? If you don't have a source then it can't be in the article. Researching the meaning of the word in this context, and Kent's admissions criteria is all very well, but it's all original research until you have a source that directly uses it in relationship to St Olave's. All this applies to "super selective" in exactly the same way. And that's even before we get to a discussion about why it is so significant it has to right there in the lead sentence. --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 17:57, 6 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I have, for now, created a section on Admissions (sub-divided into initial entry and 6th form), and collated content from the lead and main body into that section. This at least eradicates the mentioned conflation of two separate issues from the lead's 3rd para. Paul W (talk) 18:14, 6 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The Judd School

While working on the Wikipedia:WikiProject Schools/Article guidelines I looked for a FA school that could be used as an example. there is one- the The Judd School which is similar in its history, ethos and selection procedures. Both are worth looking at. If text is added it important to wikilink all the technical terms particular ones that are UK specific. --ClemRutter (talk) 20:36, 6 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Grade II listed

The school buildings have been listed at Grade II by Historic England.[1] Kelly ^hi! 22:15, 21 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Bromley Enquiry

Parking a reference.

Weale, Sally; Adams, Richard (10 July 2018). "Inquiry condemns school that barred A-level pupils". the Guardian. Pupils treated like collateral damage

Weale, Sally; Adams, Richard (11 July 2018). "Parents rebuke Ofsted for failing to inspect St Olave's pupil welfare". the Guardian. Retrieved 11 July 2018. Parents rebuke Ofsted for failing to inspect St Olave's pupil welfare

"led by educationalist Christine Whatford"- she has a CBE, and been involved with a UTC but how does that make her an educationalist? (what ever that may be?) Christine Whatford could help to explain.ClemRutter (talk) 21:24, 16 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

School song

What is the source for the school song being Jerusalem? It is certainly a better song than Olaf to Right the Wrong, but as far as I'm aware the latter is still the official school song. Tim (Xevious) (talk) 12:29, 24 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]