Talk:St. Patrick's Cathedral (New York City)

Restoration

Conservation of the building fabric was overseen by Building Conservation Associates, Inc. 74.64.168.150 (talk) 19:58, 15 March 2021 (UTC) am

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:St. Patrick's Cathedral (Manhattan)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Kncny11 (talk · contribs) 19:47, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

Hello! I'll be reviewing this article as part of the July 2021 good article nominations backlog drive! Any section that I've marked with a  Working tag means that I haven't finished leaving comments there, but you're free to begin making changes as soon as you see them! Kncny11 ^(shoot) 19:47, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

Good Article review progress box

Criteria: 1a. prose () 1b. MoS () 2a. ref layout () 2b. cites WP:RS () 2c. no WP:OR () 2d. no WP:CV () 3a. broadness () 3b. focus () 4. neutral () 5. stable () 6a. free or tagged images () 6b. pics relevant () Note: this represents where the article stands relative to the Good Article criteria. Criteria marked are unassessed

Infobox and lede

• Good

History

Early site history

• WL abbot
  • Done.

Planning

• Pipe "Irish" to Irish Catholics
  • Done.
• That being said, I'm confused by the connection between Irish-American Catholics and needing additional dioceses in NYS
  • I've rephrased it. The need for additional dioceses came from the growth of the Catholic population, not the fact that most Catholics were Irish. Epicgenius (talk) 02:33, 3 July 2021 (UTC)
• A chapel "for" the Blessed Virgin sounds not quite right (violent flashbacks to Catholic school and being told we do not worship Mary, we venerate her). "Dedicated to" is more accurate
  • Done. Not being Catholic myself, I knew something like this might come up. Epicgenius (talk) 02:33, 3 July 2021 (UTC)
• "The plans" → "Plans for the cathedral"
  • Done.

Construction

• "though the precise location of the cornerstone remains unclear"
  • Removed.

Opening and late 19th century

• WL Baltimore Sun
  • Done.

20th century

• "intending to consecrate it in 1908, after all debts were paid off" → "with the intention of consecrating it after all the debts were paid off in 1908"
  • Done.
• Comma after "12 female saints"
  • Done.
• The New York City Landmarks Preservation Commission (LPC) considered designating St. Patrick's Cathedral as a New York City landmark in early 1966.[170] Later that year, the LPC designated the cathedral as a New York City Landmark. Currently repetitive, but I'm not sure the best way to reduce said repetition
  • I've rephrased it a bit. Epicgenius (talk) 02:33, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

21st century

• "Retoration" and "renovation" are used interchangeably here. In my mind, those aren't exact synonyms, but you are probably more of an expert than I
  • This particular renovation was mostly a restoration. but I reworded anyway. Epicgenius (talk) 02:33, 3 July 2021 (UTC)
• Maybe include something from this article about how COVID restrictions impacted the church?
  • Done. This is actually a duplicate of the NYT article already on the page. Epicgenius (talk) 02:33, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

Main structure

• Pipe English Gothic architecture and French Gothic architecture accordingly
  • Done.
• "described by CNN in 2020 as being"
  • Done.
• "as well as a parish church" → "and as a parish church" (technically you'd need another as there, and "as well as as a" sounds wrong)
  • Done.
• WL gneiss
  • Done.

Location and dimensions

• "Heat and cool air is pumped" → "Heat and cool air are pumped"
  • Done.

Western facade

• "patron of the church" → "patron of the Church" (lowercase church is a building, uppercase is a denomination)
  • Done.
• WL archangel
  • Done.

Nave

• Four of the first five sentences of this section all begin with "The nave"; should be broken up/reworded
  • Done.
• Double period at the end of the section for Tiffany & Co.
  • Done.

Transepts

• WL Immaculate Conception
  • Done.
• Four Evangelists should be capitalized and linked
  • Done.
• Sacred Heart and Holy Family should also be linked
  • Done.

Sanctuary

• "was three steps above" → "were three steps above"
  • Done.
• Pipe Italian Gothic architecture
  • Done.

Crypt

• Is there a date for when the stone slab was removed?
  • I haven't found an exact date, but more recent coverage doesn't mention the slab at all. Epicgenius (talk) 23:37, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

Cathedral close

• More dates throughout the Lady chapel section would be nice -- when the rear wall of the apse was removed, when it became part of Our Lady of Lourdes, etc.
  • I added some dates. Epicgenius (talk) 23:37, 3 July 2021 (UTC)
• "The original altar, dedicated to the Virgin Mary,"
  • Done.
• "vicar-general" is lowercase and hyphenated here, but title case and not hyphenated above
  • Fixed.
• "it covers a lot measuring 54 by 47 ft"
  • Done.
• The part about the Fitzgeralds' wedding segues awkwardly into the main topic of that paragraph; it would almost be better off on its own as a third, one-line paragraph
  • Done - perhaps I can find a few more notable weddings to round this out. Epicgenius (talk) 23:37, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

Staff

• This would be better served in prose form, I believe (i.e. "Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan has served as the Archbishop of New York since 2009, and as a cardinal since 2012. Other priests at the cathedral include Rev. Donald Haggerty, etc."). Also, King, Haggerty, Golino, and Dougherty should be prefaced with the honorific Rev.
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 23:37, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

Bells

• Link to the appropriate saints in the table
  • Done.

Organs

• I think that a list of every organist and music director, including assistant organists, borders on trivia. Maybe just include prose on the notable ones and what they contributed?
  • @Kncny11: I just trimmed this to just the main organists. I'll probably write up some prose tomorrow. Epicgenius (talk) 23:16, 4 July 2021 (UTC)
    • I've converted this to prose now. Epicgenius (talk) 00:17, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

Funeral Masses

• In its current state, this reads as trivia. Is there more background that can be given as to the history/importance of funerals at the cathedral? (I know what I'm asking is vague)
  • I will look into adding a little context to this. Epicgenius (talk) 23:37, 3 July 2021 (UTC)
    • Strangely, I couldn't find too much context about this in my research. A similar thing occurred when I was considering whether to add marriages, notable speeches, etc. to the article - it was just a bunch of one-off incidents. Therefore I've hidden this section for now. Epicgenius (talk) 00:17, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

Crimes and terrorism

• "the northwest corner of St. Patrick's Cathedral" → "the northwest corner of the cathedral"
  • Done.
• "but there was only one victim" → "One casualty was reported" (with new sentence there)
  • I did this, but instead of "casualty" (which may be confused for a death), I added "injury". Epicgenius (talk) 23:37, 3 July 2021 (UTC)
• "anti-police graffiti" → "the acronym A.C.A.B., or "All Cops Are Bastards""
  • Done.
    • On further thought, Ergo Sum brought up a good point that the refs don't specifically mention ACAB. Epicgenius (talk) 22:54, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

References

• In [7], chicagotribune.com should be replaced with Chicago Tribune
  • Done.
• There's an awkward space in the author name of [9] (Pitts, Carolyn)
  • Done.

General comments

• Stability and neutrality both look good
• All of the pictures check out, as expected
• While no pictures are "irrelevant", the placement of the facade detail image seems out of place within the article itself
• Earwig copyvio score sits at 36.7%, a little higher than I've seen from you, but it looks like it's all proper nouns
  • Yeah. A few of these instances were unfortunately very hard to avoid without making them read awkwardly. Epicgenius (talk) 23:37, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

This is a strong way not just towards GA, but FA! One of the reasons I picked this review is because I am Catholic, and being part of the Church of Rules means knowing all of the hyper-specific terminology and capitalization. Plus, I actually got to go to Mass at St. Patrick's a few years ago! Was visiting a friend in Manhattan and had to pop in real quick for an Assumption Mass. Kncny11 ^(shoot) 20:59, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

@Kncny11: Thanks for the detailed review, especially the pointers about the terminology. I'm glad you seemed to enjoy the article. I've responded or addressed most of the issues and will address the rest over the next few days. Epicgenius (talk) 23:37, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

Kncny11, sorry, it is taking a little longer than I expected to clean up the organists and funeral masses sections. These were mostly from the preexisting article before I expanded it. Epicgenius (talk) 18:31, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

@Kncny11: I've resolved all of the outstanding issues now. Thanks again for your review. I really enjoyed it, particularly the errors you pointed out from your own knowledge as a Catholic. Epicgenius (talk) 00:17, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

Epicgenius Thank you for taking the time to make those revisions, particularly some of the prose conversions! Looks great, and I'll be passing! — GhostRiver 21:46, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

References

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Z1720 (talk) 05:30, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

)

St. Patrick's Cathedral

• ... that New York City's St. Patrick's Cathedral (pictured), designed with a marble roof, instead received a "temporary" plaster and wood roof that was never replaced? Source: Thompson, Ginger (November 24, 1996). "`An awesome place to pray'; Church: St. Patrick's Cathedral on Fifth Avenue has drawn visitors through the century, from the pope from Rome to city dwellers right across the street". The Sun. Baltimore. p. 2A.
  • ALT0a:... that New York City's St. Patrick's Cathedral (pictured), designed with a marble ceiling, instead received a "temporary" plaster and wood ceiling that was never replaced?
  • ALT1:... that New York City's St. Patrick's Cathedral (pictured), praised upon completion as the "finest church edifice on the American continent", was funded mostly by poor Irish Catholic parishioners? Source: Thompson 1996; Stern, Robert A. M.; Mellins, Thomas; Fishman, David (1999). New York 1880: Architecture and Urbanism in the Gilded Age. Monacelli Press. p. 317
  • ALT2:... that no one knows where the cornerstone for New York City's St. Patrick's Cathedral (pictured) is located? Source: Roberts, Sam (October 13, 2011). "At St. Patrick's, a Cornerstone That Has Long Eluded Searchers". The New York Times
  • ALT3:... that New York City's St. Patrick's Cathedral (pictured) took 20 years to build and another 30 years to consecrate? Source: "Mgr. Farley Officiates at the Consecration: Princes and Prelates of Church Gather at St. Patrick's in Honor of Occasion". New-York Tribune. October 6, 1910.

• Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Bourton-on-the-Water model village

Improved to Good Article status by Epicgenius (talk). Self-nominated at 18:44, 9 July 2021 (UTC).

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Adequate sourcing: Neutral: Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
Cited: Interesting:

Image: Image is freely licensed, used in the article, and clear at 100px.
Freely licensed: Used in article: Clear at 100px:

QPQ: Done.

Overall: Very nicely improved article. Significant overlap with a website that appears to be a WP mirror, per Earwig. AGF on some of the hook sources. Just awaiting QPQ. Ergo Sum 19:41, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

@Ergo Sum: Thanks for the compliment and for the review. I have done a QPQ now. Epicgenius (talk) 16:48, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

Good to go. Ergo Sum 18:26, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

Substituted ALT0a for ALT0 after consultation with Epicgenius. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 18:41, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

Can I recommend ALT1 with an image slot Kingsif (talk) 18:38, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

To T:DYK/P3 Z1720 (talk) 05:30, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Vital status

FYI Wikipedia talk:Vital articles/Level/5#Remove St. Patrick's Cathedral (Midtown Manhattan) czar 08:19, 28 November 2022 (UTC)

Change relagen

My name is Ali or I'm Muslim so I can change my relagen 2A02:CB80:4248:9119:1CA:1FD0:A519:491C (talk) 07:47, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 31 January 2025

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved to St. Patrick's Cathedral (New York City). SilverLocust 💬 06:54, 16 February 2025 (UTC)

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St. Patrick's Cathedral (Midtown Manhattan) → St. Patrick's Cathedral (Manhattan) – Currently redirects to this page. The disambiguator "Midtown Manhattan" is needlessly specific as there is nothing with the same name in the rest of Manhattan. — Vigilant Cosmic Penguin 🐧 (talk | contribs) 01:45, 31 January 2025 (UTC)

I believe the "Midtown" detail is meant to distinguish it from St. Patrick's Old Cathedral, which is in Lower Manhattan. I'm not really taking a position on whether we should keep "Midtown" in the article name or not, but just clarifying that that is the likely purpose of it. Ergo Sum 14:22, 31 January 2025 (UTC)

Ergo Sum is correct about the old cathedral being the reason for the "Manhattan" disambiguator. That said, I'd support a move back to St. Patrick's Cathedral (Manhattan), as the Midtown cathedral is already sufficiently disambiguated from the older cathedral in lower Manhattan. – Epicgenius (talk) 16:40, 31 January 2025 (UTC)

I also have no problem with St. Patrick's Cathedral (New York City), for what it's worth. – Epicgenius (talk) 18:54, 10 February 2025 (UTC)

• Move to St. Patrick's Cathedral (New York City), which also currently redirects to this article. Disambiguation by city rather than borough is preferable if the borough doesn't actually disambiguate. The other church is a former cathedral, not a current one, so this isn't an imprecise title. Ham II (talk) 11:20, 1 February 2025 (UTC)
• Support St. Patrick's Cathedral (New York City). -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:57, 3 February 2025 (UTC)
• Support St. Patrick's Cathedral (New York City). Agree buildings/churches should be disambiguated by city unless there's more than one of the same name in the city. The old cathedral is naturally disambiguated. Station1 (talk) 03:35, 12 February 2025 (UTC)
• Weak support for the move as proposed; stronger support for St. Patrick's Cathedral (New York City) if that's allowed. Andrew11374265 (talk) 02:52, 15 February 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.