Talk:Sri Lankan Moors

Meta79 repeated removing 2 web referenced statement==

Meta79 is repeated removing a referenced statement in 2nd paragraph about Sinhalese and Tamil converts to Islam in Sri lanka". Sri Lanka's Islamic community has converts from both Tamil and Sinhalese communities and I have posted 2 web references to back that up. Kindly seeking PharoehofWizard's help. Kindly please understand (1) Not every Muslim in Sri Lanka is of Middle Eastern ancestry (2) Arab traders and Persian and Jewish traders did come to Sri Lanka as they came to Malabar region of India for trade (3) Some of them settled intermarried with both dravidian women (mostly) and Aryan women (few Sinhalese) (4) Their descendants adopted the primary dominant language of the regions (5) There are no pure blooded Arabs in Sri lanka any more (6) The Muslim community of Sr Lanka now includes the descendants of these Arab traders (a minority) together with Tamil and Sinhalese converts to Islam. While Tamil is widely spoken by the Moors, there are also those who speak Sinhalese (7) Tamils are a small minority in Sri Lanka. Please keep in mind the statistical realities. (8) Please be objective minded about this and understand the existing diversity within the present Sri Lankan Moor community.- Dr Ananda Padmanaban. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DrAnandaPadmanaban (talk • contribs) 19:03, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

"Sri Lankan Muslims have both Tamil and Sinhalese converts, together with a minority who are the progeny of West Asian traders."

The two references that you have cited do not support the above statement you have written, hence why I have removed it.

No where in your sources does it say that 'a minority' are of Arab descent.

No where in your sources does it say that there are pure Sinhala converts to Islam (as opposed to mixed Sinhala-Arab and mixed Sinhala-Tamil Muslim descent.)

Very few Sri Lankan Muslims are simply Sinhala converts as your statement suggests.

Metta79 (talk) 23:31, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

Please understand, Islam is a religion, not an ethnicity. A religion can have converts from any ethnic group on this earth. A religion is not an indicator of an origin. My sentence mentioned a factual statement affirmed by the 2 web links provided that the Islamic community (Islam as a total) in Sri Lanka has both Sinhalese, Tamil converts as well as mixed race people. Tamil speakers form the majority at this point. You have also forgotten that there are Pakistani immigrants, Gujarati migrants (Memons), Pathans (From Afghanistan), Malays in the total Islamic community in Sri Lanka (not Moors alone specifically). What is the genetic evidence that all Moors are descendants of Arab men and Tamil women? It may hold true for some, not all. Sinhalese women also have married foreign men long ago and converted to their religion. There are also new converts to Islam from Sinhalese community as well. If that was not the case, why would Buddhist fundamentalists be up arms about conversions? My sentence reflects a diversity that exists within the Moor community, and this diversity includes mixed race (few), Tamil (majority) and Sinhala converts (minority) - AnandaPadmanaban

After going through this reference sorry to state cannot where it talks about sinhala converts this oneWhy Tamil-speaking Muslims in Sri Lanka broke away from Tamil identity it states "Many islanders, however, reject the idea of any significant Arab past for the Muslims. They say Sri Lankan Muslims are not Arab descendants, but successors of oppressed Tamil Hindus who converted to Islam in the 19th century. They were Muslim by religion and Tamils by ethnicity and hence still share cultural features of Tamils in Tamil Nadu."Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk)

Genetics

Sinhalese and Moors are closely related with each other? If so, what is Genetic studies on Sinhalese? In the article, you could see Sinhalese language is spoken by those Moors whose maternal lineage is Sinhalese and Tamil is the mother tongue of the community whose maternal lineage are Tamil ?!--AntanO 08:04, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

Intro

There are some areas to write clearly.

• What is "Arabic-influenced Tamil". Does Sri Lanka practice such language? Will it switch Arabic-influenced Sinhala too?
• intermarried with local women - Who are they? Sinhalese, Tamil, Vedda, etc?
• ancestry to Arab - But there are Indian, Malays,etc.
• Sri Lankan Muslim community is divided as Sri Lankan Moors, Indian Moors and Sri Lankan Malays. - There are Sufi, Shia and Wahabi sects too.

--AntanO 08:18, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

Removal of X-SRT

@AntanO: Can you please give a valid reason for removing the research results of the x-SRT genetic variance? -UmdP 18:11, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

See above --AntanO 18:12, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

You have not given any reason disputing the research or the results. Thank you -UmdP 18:13, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

Have you seen under "Genetics"? --AntanO 18:14, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

So where is the dispute of the results of the x-srt genetic variance? Do you have any other values on those x-srts that contradict those values? Thank you. - UmdP 18:17, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

It is not notable. Read also Genetic studies on Sinhalese. In the article, you could see Sinhalese language is spoken by those Moors whose maternal lineage is Sinhalese and Tamil is the mother tongue of the community whose maternal lineage are Tamil So, it is dispute and contradiction. Do not baptize an ethnic group by a small report. --AntanO 18:19, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

And that a existing statement in wikipedia invalidates all research data? Also it is not a contradiction because it has no data or research on x-srt that disputes the research results. No one "baptized" any ethnic group by finding the genetic variance of x-srts. - UmdP 18:25, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

Sri Lankan Moors population is 1,869,820 as per 2012. But, research data is based on 838 individuals. Isn't bias? Genetic studies on Sinhalese do not say any link with Moors. So which is right? By the way, article itself say that ... Tamil is the mother tongue of the community whose maternal lineage are Tamil. This is contradiction between maternal lineage and x-srt. --AntanO 18:31, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

If you are going to add those x-srt, I have to tag with issues like NPOV, etc. One article cannot have contradiction itself. BTW, tell me what is X-SRT?--AntanO 18:33, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

The sample size is adequate and they are unrelated. Also no you have not provided any scientific research that contradicts this one. This is going in circles so its better to go for dispute resolution. Thank you -UmdP 18:39, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

Agree with my fellow UMDP. I don't see any problem with the source provided. No counter-source claiming otherwise either. This is only one single study and it's enough to back up words in the section for now. AXONOV (talk) ⚑ 14:59, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

Also my bad. It was a typo from phone -UmdP 18:39, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

You did not answer to my questions.

• \\The sample size is adequate and they are unrelated\\ How could you say?
• \\you have not provided any scientific research\\ Genetic studies on Sinhalese
• ... Tamil is the mother tongue of the community whose maternal lineage are Tamil Are you going to say no?
• what is X-SRT?

--AntanO 18:51, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

If you go to Genetic studies on Sinhalese most research has a far lesser sample size ranging from 200-400. Considering you are trying to dispute this claiming they contradict this one but have not provided the so-called contradicting results.

Which makes no mention of any studies contradicting this or any research on the x-STRs also their sample sizes are also much smaller.

A repeating usually non-coding part of the genome. They are not part of gene expression and tend to mutate a lot so its much easier to see genetic relations on how close groups/individuals are to each other. -UmdP 19:05, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

I have requested for third opinion as you are not providing any source that contradicts the research data but keep on blocking the addition. Thank you. -UmdP 19:51, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

You cannot remove "Disputed section" unless it solved. The article says ... Tamil is the mother tongue of the community whose maternal lineage are Tamil but the report says Moors are most closely related to Sinhalaese. Isn't funny? Genetic studies on Sinhalese is say Muslim-Sinhalese connection and is supported with many reliable source while this new claim is based on just a single source. --AntanO 02:23, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

We are not talking about linguistics we are talking about genetics. The studies in the Sinhalese page confirm the results as they say there is very few variation among Sinhalese, SL Tamils and Moors. Also this is not a single source you can find citation of other research as well, this is research data and this not about Sinhalese and Muslims being close but about x-str variations in populations. Please provide this research data that contradicts it instead of making random claims. You not understanding what is being researched doesn't mean it's wrong. - UmdP 02:29, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

@AntanO: https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard#Sri_Lankan_Moors - UmdP 03:39, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

The entire contradiction is based on a blog post which is not equal to peer reviewed research per WP:SOURCE. The blog post was removed as it was not WP:RS. - UmdP 15:39, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

All Muslims in Sri Lanka Speak Tamil?

Anyone who speaks Tamil language as their sole family language for generations, writes Tamil language fluently, has roots from Tamil regions of Sri Lanka or Tamil Nadu  is Tamil. This is agreed by Scholars and Tamil community as a general. Here are 4 questions I have

1. There are individual Sinhalese who convert to Islam and there are Sinhalese who have converted to Islam. Do they start talking Tamil at once, the moment they convert?

2. What is Moor etc? The Portuguese word Moor originally means Muslim. Sri Lankan moor therefore means Sri Lankan Muslim. If that is the case, do Sri Lankan Malays speak Tamil as their mother tongue? What is their house language they speak at home and families? Where is the evidence they speak Tamil?

3. But do Memons from Sindh, Pakistan and Bohras historically from Gujarat who are now Sri Lankan citizens speak Tamil, have roots to Tamil Nadu, practice Tamil culture? Where is the scholarly evidence they speak Tamil and do all of that?

4. Based on the above questions, is it logical to say every Sri Lankan Moor (Muslim) speaks Tamil ?

Since when did Muslim (a religion) become an ethnicity speaking one language alone?

The wikipedia article should therefore reflect that Sri Lankan Muslims come from all ethnicities, and that Sri Lankan Muslims consist of Tamil Muslims converts who are the majority with a minority of non-Tamil speaking Muslims as well.

My classmate a Sinhala Buddhist born man, converted in 2005 to Islam to marry a North Indian Urdu speaking Muslim woman whom he met in India, where he had gone to study. His mother tongue Sinhala didn't change to become Tamil. He is however officially a Sri lankan Muslim legally, where he and wife now live in Sri Lanka. His Muslim children speak both Sinhala and Urdu. How did Tamil become their mother tongue?

Please stop claiming non-Tamils as Tamils repeatedly. It makes us Tamils look cheap.

This article on Sri Lankan moors needs major updates to clearly state

1. Only Tamil converts to Islam speak Tamil 2. Only those with Tamil lineage mothers, speak Tamil.

Rest of Muslims outside of the 1 and 2 don't. Sri lankan moor has been falsely been considered as an ethnicity by Sri Lankan government.

Gabrielasirwatham (talk) 11:27, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

None of what you say is currently supported by the references. This is all original research which is forbidden on wikipedia. Wikipedia just says what the reliable sources says. Oz346 (talk) 11:52, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

\\Anyone who speaks Tamil language as their sole family language for generations, writes Tamil language fluently, has roots from Tamil regions of Sri Lanka or Tamil Nadu is Tamil. This is agreed by Scholars and Tamil community as a general.\\

This is your subjective opinion. Not an objective fact or even supported by scholarly consensus. Majority of Sri Lankan Muslims who fit this criteria explicitly deny being Tamil.

\\is it logical to say every Sri Lankan Moor (Muslim) speaks Tamil ?\\

The article does not say this. It says the majority of Moors speak Tamil, which is a fact supported by references.

\\Please stop claiming non-Tamils as Tamils repeatedly. It makes us Tamils look cheap.\\

No where in the introduction is this claimed. I don't know where you read that. Oz346 (talk) 11:58, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

1. It is a fact that majority of Muslims speak Tamil because they are Tamil converts

There is no disagreement on that fact

2. However, you have refusing to allow for a statement that "there are Sinhalese and Malay speaking Muslims". For whatever reason known to you.

3. You are refusing to allow the entry of "Most Muslims in Sri Lanka are Tamil converts".

4. If they are non-Tamils as you claim, you have failed to explain how did majority of Muslims adopt tamil as their mother tongue? Where is the explanation for that in this article?

4. Define who is a Tamil by ethnicity. Can you define that here for me using scholarly consensus? Gabrielasirwatham (talk) 21:56, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

What is a Tamil? - See officially verified wikipedia entry defining what is a Tamil, and the scholarly reference below

The Tamil people, also known as Tamilar (Tamil: தமிழர், romanized: Tamiḻar, pronounced [t̪amiɻaɾ] in the singular or தமிழர்கள், Tamiḻarkaḷ, [t̪amiɻaɾɡaɭ] in the plural), Tamilians, or simply Tamils (/ˈtæmɪlz, ˈtɑː-/ TAM-ilz, TAHM-), are an ethnolinguistic group who natively speak the Tamil language and trace their ancestry mainly to India's southern state of Tamil Nadu, to the union territory of Puducherry, and to Sri Lanka.

1. Frank Rennie, Robin Mason, ed. (December 2008). Information Age Publishing. p. 247. ISBN 9781607528241. "Tamilians, a group living in the southern state of Tamil Nadu."

2. Stein, B. (1977), "Circulation and the Historical Geography of Tamil Country", The Journal of Asian Studies, 37 (1): 7–26, doi:10.2307/2053325, JSTOR 2053325, S2CID 144599197

Based on the above scholarly definition, as to who and what is a Tamil, are those Muslims in Sri Lanka who natively speak Tamil, part of tamil ethnicity?

And therefore, are those Muslims who do not speak Tamil and are of Bohra, and Memon and Malay lineages Tamil? Gabrielasirwatham (talk) 23:05, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

In wikipedia, you need to support your assertions with reliable sources. So each of the points you make, you need to find reliable sources which state the same thing. You have not done that. Refrain from your own analysis which fits original research. Oz346 (talk) 23:12, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

But to give you a more detailed reply.

1. It is a fact that majority of Muslims speak Tamil because they are Tamil converts. There is no disagreement on that fact

You need to find an up to date reliable source which states that the majority of Muslims speak Tamil because they are Tamil converts. That's how wikipedia works.

"2. However, you have refusing to allow for a statement that "there are Sinhalese and Malay speaking Muslims". For whatever reason known to you."

The page already states that SL Moors speak Sinhala too. Whereas Malays are designated as a separate ethnic group on Wikipedia from SL Moors and have their own page. This is a page on Sri Lankan Moors not all Muslims in Sri Lanka.

"If they are non-Tamils as you claim, you have failed to explain how did majority of Muslims adopt tamil as their mother tongue? Where is the explanation for that in this article?"

I never claimed anything. I for one agree with the quote from Ameer Ali which is later in the article . The dominant ancestry in SL Moors is without doubt the Tamil ancestry. But that is not the same as ethnic identity, which is largely self identification. Oz346 (talk) 23:20, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Muslims in Sri Lanka are called Moors. Moor is simply another word for Muslim.

Since when did Muslim/a religious membership become an ethnicity? That is not a scholarly fact. Gabrielasirwatham (talk) 00:45, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

Read up on Ethnicity, Sri Lankan Moors or Sonakar as they self identify as, is their primary ethnic identity. They largely do not self identify as ethnic Tamils, and see themselves as one community. Oz346 (talk) 00:49, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

So what happens when of them decides to convert to Buddhism or Christianity, what happens to their ethnicity? Could you clarify? Since moor is tied to Islam, what happens when one of them leaves islam to become a Christian or a Buddhist? Gabrielasirwatham (talk) 09:27, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

What is the ETHNICITY of Sri lankan Moors (Muslims)? Why can't you clearly state that answer?

In Tamil Nadu, there are Tamil Muslims. Their religion is Islam and ethnicity is Tamil speaking Tamil language as mother tongue

In Gujarat, there are Gujarati Muslims. Their religion is Islam and ethnicity is Gujarati speaking Gujarati language as mother tongue

In Sri Lanka there are Sri Lankan Muslims. Their religion is Islam and ethnicity is speaking what language as mother tongue ????????

Please fill n the blanks. Gabrielasirwatham (talk) 00:49, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

your latest additions are not warranted, but I'm not going to revert/edit war with you. It's already mentioned that there are Moors who speak Sinhala, so why repeat the same? Moors speaking Tamil is also already mentioned. Them being identified as Tamils for this reason is not so important for it to be included in the introduction. No doubt someone will eventually revert your unnecessary changes. Oz346 (talk) 01:42, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes, they speak Sinhala, but not as second language as the article states. There are Muslims who speak Sinhalese as the first language too. Gabrielasirwatham (talk) 08:47, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

• Agree with Oz346 the latest additions are not warranted. Please get consenus before adding.Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 11:53, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

  A news report quoting that there are also Muslims who speak other languages is not allowed? Wikipedia allows addition of published information. Gabrielasirwatham (talk) 23:40, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

• "Linguistically, most have Tamil as their mother tongue, often leading them to be categorised as part of the island’s Tamil minority, alongside Hindus and Christians. There are, however, Muslims who speak the majority Sinhala language." is what the news report states

It does not state Muslims speak Sinhala as there mother tongue and as per WP:BURDEN one needs bring a reference for the same.It is already mentioned that they speak Sinhalese as a second languagePharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 00:40, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

It does not say they speak Tamil as ther mother tongue. It first states Most Muslims speak tamil as mother tongue and it then goes on to state that THERE ARE (also) Muslims who speak Sinhaless, in light of the first half of the statement. Gabrielasirwatham (talk) 02:01, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

So all Muslims in Sri Lanka, including someone from Sinhalese community who decides to convert to Islam start talking Tamil at once? Bohras from Gujarat also speak Tamil? Malays also speak Tamil? Gabrielasirwatham (talk) 02:02, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Article states : - there are, however, Muslims who speak the majority Sinhala language.

It does not say "also" speak (dual linguism), it states "they speak the Sinhalese language".

which means as their primary language. Gabrielasirwatham (talk) 02:04, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

The web article's statement verbatim should be allowed as entry, for the views and scholars to make up their own mind as to what that statement means.

Wikipedia is about expanding knowledge.

Why are you not permitting the exact quotes of that article? Gabrielasirwatham (talk) 02:06, 18 April 2024 (UTC)