Talk:Southern Song dynasty coinage
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Why this article is the way it is
[edit]Concerning the articles: Southern Song dynasty coinage, Liao dynasty coinage, Western Xia coinage, and Jin dynasty coinage (1115–1234).
WP:TOOLONG version: Before nominating this article for deletion, think about merging it with Ancient Chinese coinage as the only real reason I made this is because that article stops as “the Northern Song Dynasty” and I wanted to fill the gap between that and the Yuan dynasty coinage article I created so others would be inspired to make a “Qing dynasty coinage” article.
Dear reader(s),
I’ll copy-and-paste this exact message to the talk page of all of the aforementioned articles for a clear reason, in draft they were all supposed to be a single article called “Southern Song era coinage”, now let me explain my reasons as to why things have become the way they have, and why I ultimately decided to split them in 4 smaller articles than keep a single article covering coinage from the same era (pre-Mongol era bridging it to the Yuan dynasty coinage article). In brief it came down to the fact that I would think that a single article would do the readers (read: you, yes, you) a huge disservice, if I’d make it mostly about the Southern Song I’d be doing the Khitans, Tanguts, and Jurchens another disservice, the article would look oddly pasted talking about the different histories of both different people and different countries as if they were extended versions of the Song, this is simply untrue and would make the “Southern Song era coinage” article look extremely sloppy.
My reasons for making these articles is this massive list naming many Southern Song era coins that would otherwise not be on Wikipedia, since the Ancient Chinese coinage article stops at the Northern Song Dynasty I had to go there.
One thing these articles have in common is that they combine the Great work done by the honourable @Davidhartill: from his book “Cast Chinese Coins”, with this link from Primaltrek, obviously having only 2 references (or 1 reference + 1 source) wouldn't make the notability guidelines so I did put in a little more research with each/every article, to follow what I call “the 7 reference rule” where any new article I publish must have at least 7 unrelated secondary and/or tertiary sources/references.
I started to make these articles fashioned after what I would describe as “the sloppily edited” Ming dynasty coinage article. I honestly just wanted to make a very detailed “Qing dynasty coinage” article but the opposite counts for that as for these articles, with the Qing there’s an overabundance (plethora) of sources, while with these sources that meet Wikipedia’s standards are rare to find (which is why I hope that like with TV Tropes 📺 that another user will simply “adopt” these articles and improve them as I’ve noticed that Wikipedia is similar with the whole “withering” thing(, like which had happened after others greatly improved my Bad English at the page I created at “Victimized Bystander”(, also “Disrespectoid’ed Bystander.).).). So far Hartill and Primaltrek are the only detailed sources I could really find. Yeah, it’s my “dream” to start a “Qing dynasty coinage” article which is THE STUPID REASON why I made these, and as I first started collecting Far Eastern cash coins with a Qianlong Tongbao (as my first “cash”) I got Qing coins will always have a special place in my heart, but with these articles the main focus was “indexing” what I would call basically “Wikipedia's missing cash coins”, I prefer for Wikipedia to be a comprehensive list of every cash-style coin ever made, but that requires a lot of work and I don’t simply just want to make “list of...” articles, so here’s my take on what needed to be done, and these 4 articles single-handedly “double” the amount of “[X] dynasty coinage” articles so yeah, Wikipedia now covers every coin EXCEPT for the Qing, but that’s (unfortunately) not on my to-do list, but I digress. These articles are all similar in style because they are all basically “the same article” but then split into 4 early in the drafting (I write e-mails to myself in Outlook Mail and then “mail them to myself” as I can’t sandbox on my Windows Phone without Microsoft Edge constantly renewing and deleting all my progress) so I have to largely base them on the aforementioned 2 sources. The reason I use Wikitables as opposed to the style from Ancient Chinese coinage is because tables are easier for the readers to understand, and easier to uniformly organise. A final suggestion to merging the style would be creating a “Medieval Chinese coinage” article, but the term “Medieval” shouldn't refer to non-European history which is another reason why I eventually decided on splitting these 4 (four) articles early in the draft.
Personally I would have that all of these 4 articles would use Traditional Chinese, but it would be better for the milliard potential readers that I would also add Simplified Chinese so I did, what’s still missing though are the instances of Jurchen script, Khitan script, and Tangut script, but as my cell.-phone 📞 doesn’t support those I can’t add them so I hope that someone who can would please add these scripts, also for a lot of these coins more images for illustration would also more beneficial for novice readers. As these Wikitables are all derivative from the same “standard issue model wikitable-template” I created they all look quite similar, more similar than they should as separate information isn't quite accurately displayed in this “Southern Song-centric wikitable”, in the near future I would add more content to the individual pages, but as of publishing they’re basically just “4 instances of the same article, slightly modified”. Specific to the Western Xia, the “Tangut script” I found may just as well be displayed as “❓❔❓❔❓❔❓❔❓❔❓❔❓❔ ” to everyone, someone with that font should really check it out.
But all of these articles are “just a work in progress anyhow”, so I hope that you/y’all won’t immediately dismiss them on their similarities. As currently my only resource on finding information is Bing News (as Live Search Books 📚 got discontinued years go), so I can’t find much academic sources to fill in more “missing information 🛈”.
What could still be improved:
More sources could be added, as I don’t have the money to buy every book on Amazon about Chinese coins I can’t simply add those, if someone with those books would please add more content that would greatly improve this article.
My grammar, as my English isn't that great, all of these articles could use some grammar clean up by someone more versed in English grammar.
Possible missing coins, as far as I know David Hartill & Primaltrek provide the most complete lists, as I own the “Cast Chinese coins” book 📚, and read Primaltrek a lot I’d get that impression,,but if I missed any coins then please add them.
More economic background could be added.
Maybe add some Chinese (Mandarin, Hokkien/Southern-Min, Hakka, Cantonese, Etc.) sources as those are more detailed.
A section about mint marks as I often gloss over those.
Detail the specifications (weight, diameter, metal alloy, Etc.) of each coin.
Sent from my Microsoft Lumia 950 XL with Microsoft Windows 10 Mobile 📱.
Yours faithfully, Donald Trung --Donald Trung (talk) 14:30, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
"Northern Song" coins. 🀄💴
[edit]The reason the wikitable in this article (from “publication” looks like this:
The coins produced during this period include:[1][2]
| Inscription | Traditional Chinese | Simplified Chinese | Scripts | Period minted | Emperor |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Zhi Ping Tong Bao | 治平通寶 | 治平通宝 | Regular script, Seal script | 1064-1067 | [[Yingzong |
| Zhi Ping Yuan Bao | 治平元寶 | 治平元宝 | Regular script, Seal script | 1064-1067 | Yingzong |
| Xi Ning Tong Bao | 熙寧通寶 | 熙宁通宝 | Regular script, Seal script | 1068-1077 | Shenzong |
| Xi Ning Yuan Bao | 熙寧元寶 | 熙宁元宝 | Regular script, Seal script | 1068-1077 | Shenzong |
| Xi Ning Zhong Bao | 熙寧重寶 | 熙宁重宝 | Regular script, Seal script | 1068-1077 | Shenzong |
| Yuan Feng Tong Bao | 元豐通寶 | 元丰通宝 | Regular script, Seal script, Running script | 1078-1085 | Shenzong |
| Yuan You Tong Bao | 元佑通寶 | 元佑通宝 | Seal script | 1086-1094 | Zhezong |
| Shao Sheng Tong Bao | 紹聖通寶 | 绍圣通宝 | Regular script, Seal script, Running script | 1094-1098 | Zhezong |
| Shao Sheng Yuan Bao | 紹聖元寶 | 绍圣元宝 | Regular script, Seal script, Running script | 1094-1098 | Zhezong |
| Yuan Fu Tong Bao | 元符通寶 | 元符通宝 | Regular script, Seal script, Running script | 1098-1100 | Zhezong |
| Sheng Song Tong Bao | 聖宋通寶 | 圣宋通宝 | Regular script, Seal script | 1101 | Huizong |
| Sheng Song Yuan Bao | 聖宋元寶 | 圣宋元宝 | Regular script, Seal script | 1101 | Huizong |
| Chong Ning Tong Bao | 崇寧通寶 | 崇宁通宝 | Regular script | 1102-1106 | Huizong |
| Chong Ning Zhong Bao | 崇寧重寶 | 崇宁重宝 | Regular script | 1102-1106 | Huizong |
| Da Guan Tong Bao | 大觀通寶 | 大观通宝 | Regular script | 1107-1110 | Huizong |
| Zheng He Tong Bao | 政和通寶 | 政和通宝 | Regular script, Seal script | 1111-1117 | Huizong |
| Chong He Tong Bao | 重和通寶 | 重和通宝 | Regular script, Seal script | 1118-1119 | Huizong |
| Xuan He Tong Bao | 宣和通寶 | 宣和通宝 | Regular script, Seal script | 1119-1125 | Huizong |
| Xuan He Yuan Bao | 宣和元寶 | 宣和元宝 | Regular script, Seal script | 1119-1125 | Huizong |
| Jing Kang Tong Bao | 靖康通寶 | 靖康通宝 | Regular script, Seal script | 1126-1127 | Qinzong |
| Jing Kang Yuan Bao | 靖康元寶 | 靖康元宝 | Regular script, Seal script | 1126-1127 | Qinzong |
| Jian Yan Tong Bao | 建炎通寶 | 建炎通宝 | Regular script, Seal script | 1127-1130 | Gaozong |
| Jian Yan Yuan Bao | 建炎元寶 | 建炎元宝 | Regular script, Seal script | 1127-1130 | Gaozong |
| Jian Yan Zhong Bao | 建炎重寶 | 建炎重宝 | Seal script | 1127-1130 | Gaozong |
| Shao Xing Tong Bao | 紹興通寶 | 绍兴通宝 | Regular script, Seal script | 1131-1162 | Gaozong |
| Shao Xing Yuan Bao | 紹興元寶 | 绍兴元宝 | Regular script | 1131-1162 | Gaozong |
| Long Xing Tong Bao | 隆興通寶 | 隆兴通宝 | Regular script, Seal script | 1163-1164 | Xiaozong |
| Long Xing Yuan Bao | 隆興元寶 | 隆兴元宝 | Regular script, Seal script | 1163-1164 | Xiaozong |
| Qian Dao Tong Bao | 乾道通寶 | 干道通宝 | Regular script | 1165-1173 | Xiaozong |
| Qian Dao Yuan Bao | 乾道元寶 | 干道元宝 | Regular script | 1165-1173 | Xiaozong |
| Chun Xi Tong Bao | 淳熙通寶 | 淳熙通宝 | Regular script | 1174-1189 | Xiaozong |
| Chun Xi Yuan Bao | 淳熙元寶 | 淳熙元宝 | Regular script, Seal script | 1174-1189 | Xiaozong |
| Shao Xi Tong Bao | 紹熙通寶 | 绍熙通宝 | Regular script, Seal script | 1190-1194 | Guangzong |
| Shao Xi Yuan Bao | 紹熙元寶 | 绍熙元宝 | Regular script, Seal script | 1190-1194 | Guangzong |
| Qing Yuan Tong Bao | 慶元通寶 | 庆元通宝 | Regular script | 1195-1200 | Ningzong |
| Qing Yuan Yuan Bao | 慶元元寶 | 庆元元宝 | Regular script | 1195-1200 | Ningzong |
| Jia Tai Tong Bao | 嘉泰通寶 | 嘉泰通宝 | Regular script | 1201-1204 | Ningzong |
| Jia Tai Yuan Bao | 嘉泰元寶 | 嘉泰元宝 | Regular script | 1201-1204 | Ningzong |
| Kai Xi Tong Bao | 開禧通寶 | 开禧通宝 | Regular script | 1205-1207 | Ningzong |
| Kai Xi Yuan Bao | 開禧元寶 | 开禧元宝 | Regular script | 1205-1207 | Ningzong |
| Jia Ding Tong Bao | 嘉定通寶 | 嘉定通宝 | Regular script | 1208-1224 | Ningzong |
| Jia Ding Yuan Bao | 嘉定元寶 | 嘉定元宝 | Regular script | 1208-1224 | Ningzong |
| Sheng Song Zhong Bao | 聖宋重寶 | 圣宋重宝 | Regular script | 1210 | Ningzong |
| Bao Qing Yuan Bao | 寶慶元寶 | 宝庆元宝 | Regular script | 1225-1227 | Lizong |
| Da Song Tong Bao | 大宋通寶 | 大宋通宝 | Regular script | 1225 | Lizong |
| Da Song Yuan Bao | 大宋元寶 | 大宋元宝 | Regular script | 1225-1227 | Lizong |
| Shao Ding Tong Bao | 紹定通寶 | 绍定通宝 | Regular script | 1228-1233 | Lizong |
| Duan Ping Tong Bao | 端平通寶 | 端平通宝 | Regular script | 1234-1236 | Lizong |
| Duan Ping Yuan Bao | 端平元寶 | 端平元宝 | Regular script | 1234-1236 | Lizong |
| Duan Ping Zhong Bao | 端平重寶 | 端平重宝 | Regular script | 1234-1236 | Lizong |
| Jia Xi Tong Bao | 嘉熙通寶 | 嘉熙通宝 | Regular script | 1237-1240 | Lizong |
| Jia Xi Zhong Ba | 嘉熙重寶 | 嘉熙重宝 | Regular script | 1237-1240 | Lizong |
| Chun You Tong Bao | 淳佑通寶 | 淳佑通宝 | Regular script | 1241-1252 | Lizong |
| Chun You Yuan Bao | 淳佑元寶 | 淳佑元宝 | Regular script | 1241-1252 | Lizong |
| Huang Song Yuan Bao | 皇宋元寶 | 皇宋元宝 | Regular script | 1253-1258 | Lizong |
| Kai Qing Tong Bao | 開慶通寶 | 开庆通宝 | Regular script | 1259 | Lizong |
| Jing Ding Yuan Bao | 景定元寶 | 景定元宝 | Regular script | 1260-1264 | Lizong |
| Xian Chun Yuan Bao | 咸淳元寶 | 咸淳元宝 | Regular script | 1265-1274 | Duzong |
Sent from my Microsoft Lumia 950 XL with Microsoft Windows 10 Mobile 📱.
Is very specifically because I took this page where the Ancient Chinese coinage article left off, maybe a part of this table should migrate there as it concerns the Northern Song, but My intention with this article is to bridge Ancient Chinese coinage 🌉 Yuan dynasty coinage. If this version of the list needs to be changed then please migrate the Northern content to the Ancient Chinese coinage article, I will leave it unchanged for now.
--Donald Trung (talk) 14:37, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
References
- ^ Numis' Numismatic Encyclopedia. A reference list of 5000 years of Chinese coinage. (Numista) Written on December 9, 2012 • Last edit: June 13, 2013 Retrieved: 17 June 2017
- ^ Charms.ru [http://www.charm.ru/coins/vn/ch-vn.shtml Coincidences of Vietnam and China cash coins legends.] Francis Ng, People’s Republic of China, Thuan D.Luc, United States, and Vladimir A. Belyaev, Russia March-June, 1999 Retrieved: 17 June 2017.
Northern Song Dynasty coins getting a separate list, explaining my actions. ⚠
[edit]I would like to explain why I (will) split the list, the title and a unified list could mislead the readers, and I do not wish 🌠 for that to happen, also excluding Northern Song Dynasty coins would equally be a disservice as these coins still circulated in the "Southern" Song Dynasty. As I'm busy I won't complete the list today (July 21st, 2017) but will continue with it later, I'm already working on the draft. Further of note 📝 O changed the name of the section to reflect this and since the Ancient Chinese coinage @article stops abruptly without reason I shall add the Northern Song here only in list form. --58.187.171.100 (talk) 14:20, 21 July 2017 (UTC)
Do not remove the "Northern list".
[edit]The Northern Song Dynasty coins are included because I had made the list about both, the rest of the article only talks about the monetary history of the Southern Song Dynasty, but the list is for the entire Song Dynasty. Factually the Song Dynasty was only one dynasty but the "North(ern)-South(ern) divide" was coined by historians afterwards, the coinages are a straight continuation. Also this is akin to the style of the list of Emperors article, both Nortj ans South can be in the same list. --58.187.171.100 (talk) 15:19, 21 July 2017 (UTC)