Talk:Sotk gold mine

Requested move 27 May 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved per WP:COMMONNAME (non-admin closure) (t · c) buidhe 23:44, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

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Zod gold mine → Sotk gold mine – The WP:COMMONNAME of the gold mine is very obviously the Sotk gold mine, not the Zod gold mine. The town of Sotk, located in Armenia, was once inhabited by Azerbaijanis, but the gold mine itself has always been operated by Armenians in Armenia under the Armenian name Sotk.

Let's do a quick search on Google and Google Scholar: "Sotk gold mine" brings up 33,200 and 116 results on the platforms respectively, while "Zod gold mine" has a mere 772 and 9 results. Interestingly, the lion's share of results that display "Zod" also happen to inhumanely display Armenians as thieves and charlatans. For example, the Iranian Azeri photographer Reza Deghati boasts on Twitter that "the armenian occupants have looted the Azerbaijani part of the ZOD gold mine", even though the gold mine was illegitimately occupied by Azerbaijan after the 2020 NK war ceased. Alternatively, "KavkazPlus", a notorious Georgian far-right site known for denigrating Armenians worldwide, proudly declares, "Zod gold deposit in Kelbajar region is freed from Armenian marauders".

As objectively illegal as the annexation of Az. territories by Armenian forces after the First NK war was by international law, as illegal is the forceful occupation of the Sotk gold mine by Azerbaijan. Thus, the legitimate names should be used in both situations. And the legitimate name for the Sotk gold mine is Sotk and nothing but Sotk. BaxçeyêReş (talk) 20:26, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

• Keep. The larger portion of the mine is located on Azerbaijani territory, and the Azerbaijani name of the mine is "Zod". "Zod" was also the official Armenian name of the mine until 1991. WP:COMMONNAME does not apply. Parishan (talk) 01:25, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

The mine was illegally annexed by Azerbaijan, and it is on Azerbaijani territory now, but has been Armenian territory for eons. Annexations/Occupations do not warrant a name change as if it is "legitimate". And WP:COMMONNAME does apply because the move was unilateral.BaxçeyêReş (talk) 01:48, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

What makes you think it was illegally annexed? Are there any sources stating that Azerbaijan taking control of one part of the mine is considered annexation? Parishan (talk) 02:12, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

Given that the World Bank clearly states that the mine is in Armenian territory, it's safe to say that Azerbaijan taking control of part of it means that its an annexation. KhndzorUtogh (talk) 12:41, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

Here is a Moscow-published Soviet source from 1957 describing the Zod mine as located in Azerbaijan: "В эту полосу входит Ипякское месторождение в Лачинском районе, Гейдаринское, Зодское, Джомартское в Кельбаджарском районе и Шахдагское месторождение в верховье p. Шамхорчай." (М. Кашкай, П. Алампиев. Азербайджанская ССР. Экономико-географическая характеристика. — М.: Государственное издательство географической литературы, 1957). Parishan (talk) 02:36, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

• Support. per nom and WP:COMMONNAME. Sotk Gold Mine is the most commonly used name in English, per Wikipedia policy articles should be named after the most widely used name in English since this is English Wikipedia. WP:OFFICIALNAME does not apply seeing as the mine is split between the territorial integrity of Armenia and Azerbaijan per the article itself. Also, the mine is named after the locality of Sotk, it makes no sense to have that page named Sotk and this one Zod. Analyzing RS that report on this mine they almost all describe it as Sotk (Zod) with Zod being displayed as an alternative name not the common name.[[1]][[2]] even the Pro-Azerbaijani news site Vestnik Kavkaza says “Sotk (Zod).” Per nom almost all the publications that use Zod aren’t reliable sources, it is clear from the google results that Sotk is the most widely used name in English for this mine. TagaworShah (talk) 03:25, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

The terrotory of the mine was under de-facto Armenian occupation/control for almost 30 years thus the Armenian name appears to be more used in the Internet, but as it was mentioned above, the most part of the mine is located on the terrotory of Azerbaijan, and the name Zod was also the official name of the mine during the Soviet times. Argumentation that "Kalbajar is occupied by Azerbaijan" is not applicable as 1) that is not true 2) it clearly demonstrates pro-Armenian bias to everyone who thinks this way --Mastersun25 (talk) 10:09, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

Sorry, but who ever suggested that "Kalbajar" was "occupied by Azerbaijan"? BaxçeyêReş (talk) 15:48, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

• Keep. per the above --Mastersun25 (talk) 10:09, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

• Support. Per nominator's points and also that per the World Bank, Sotk is in Armenian territory, which you can see here, go to page 8 KhndzorUtogh (talk) 19:13, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

Yes, about 1/3 of the mine is on Armenian territory. Rest 2/3 is on the territory of Azerbaijan's Kalbajar district. [3] --Mastersun25 (talk) 19:41, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

Did you really just link to a wikimedia commons image to prove that the mine is in Azerbaijani territory? Literally the world bank says it is in Armenia and you link to an image on commons. KhndzorUtogh (talk) 19:56, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

It is not "just a link to Wikimedia commons" but a satellite image sourced by European Space Agency. The mine is and has been located mostly on Azerbaijani territory since the Soviet times, also the World Bank report does not say that the mine fully lies on Armenian territory as well. Honestly you trying to challenge obvious and well-known facts makes this discussion totally nonsensical. --Mastersun25 (talk) 21:28, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

• support: per nominator, TagaworShah and WP:COMMONNAME. - Kevo³²⁷ (talk) 12:32, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

• support: am / might be coming out of my temporary Wikipedia retirement to support the motion - i've watched for far too long. i can only reiterate the nominator, TagaworShah, KhndzorUtogh, Kevo327. Thank you. ClassicYoghurt (talk) 16:10, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

• Support Per the nominator. Common name now is Sotk. Sotk also has more Google search results, and the town to which after the mine is named, again is also called Sotk. Seems like a clear case to me. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 08:28, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

1) "Sotk" is the common name of the mine only in Armenia; 2) I just checked with the Google, and the combination "Zod gold mine" has more Google results than "Sotk gold mine". 3) The Armenian settlement near the mine is not a town, but a village, and it was also called "Zod" before being renamed in 1995. Given the fact that most of the mine is located on Azerbaijani territory as well as the arguments above, I'm not sure how this case is "clear" to you. Regards, --Mastersun25 (talk) 11:45, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

Also I love how @Kevo327: who is accusing me of sockpuppeting, has a tandem partnership with @ZaniGiovanni: on every possible discussion on the AA-topic on Wikipedia. Isn't that a canvassing? Regards, --Mastersun25 (talk) 11:57, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

I chuckled a bit, not going to lie. This is kind of funny and sad at the same time. "Canvassing" based on what again, @Mastersun25: ? I'm going to warn you to stop casting aspersions on other editors, or your account will be reported. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 12:04, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

I'm glad I made you laugh, but you can as well keep your passive-agressive rhetoric by yourself, since you're not the one to decide whether I should be banned or not, instead you could have made an effort trying to answer my argumentation above, but I know you don't want to since it would weaken your partisan view on the issue. --Mastersun25 (talk) 18:08, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

Very well then, please be aware of this notice. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 19:33, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

Mastersun25, I duly suspected it and filed an investigation because your conduct was problematic at best, by comparison you are making worthless WP:ASPERSIONS without understanding what canvassing is, assuming bad faith in this way isn't a good practice, I advise you to read WP:AGF as well. - Kevo³²⁷ (talk) 12:12, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

• Support Sotk Gold Mine produces about 32,400 results in Google Search whereas Zod Gold Mine produces only 2,950 results as of today. It is APPARENTLY the most commonly used name. Zod Gold Mine can be mentioned in the article too, but not as the main one, sorry. Just because Azerbaijan has now got part of Sotk does not mean that the mine name should be Azerified in Wikipedia this aggressively - Wikipedia is not Aliyev's dükkân. If an Azeri astronaut lands on the Moon one day and decides that it should be 'Ay' and not 'Moon' from now on, it does not mean that English Wikipedia should adopt that uncommon name. The very disputable redirect from Sotk gold mine to Zod Gold Mine made by Parishan was apparently dictated by his POW and not by consensus and hence does not have legitimacy. --Armatura (talk) 13:20, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

Funny. Try changing word "Azerbaijani" to "Armenian" in your moon example and you will get the quintessence of this very discussion. --Mastersun25 (talk) 18:08, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

I don't find the practice of falsification of history by Azerbaijan funny and all of us should aim to keep this article and other articles on Wikipedia out of its scope. Each of us has some bias, but it does not mean you should ignore that the Sotk gold mine is used in world wide web 32,400 : 2950 = 11 times more than Zod gold mine, it's common sense to use the more prevalent name as the main name of that mine. Amicus Plato, sed magis amica veritas is a good principle to stick to, both in wiki and in life. --Armatura (talk) 18:43, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

By the way, I find your statement I just checked with the Google, and the combination "Zod gold mine" has more Google results than "Sotk gold mine". extremely strange, as Google is Google in all countries, and should show the same thing... unless it turns out Azerbaijani i-net providers are blocking everything that is Armenian, inclusive of place names... you may want to try using TOR or non-Azeri proxy instead of whatever you are using now. --Armatura (talk) 23:12, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

References

Anglo-Asian Mining

ZaniGiovanni, I am not sure what are you referring to but whatever it is, this is not the right way of going about it. This is not an explanation, this is edit-warring and random throwing of content guideline links without addressing any issues having to do with the source. You are referring me to WP:BURDEN. According to WP:BURDEN, "The burden to demonstrate verifiability lies with the editor who adds or restores material, and it is satisfied by providing an inline citation to a reliable source that directly supports the contribution". Now please be specific as to why the cited source is unreliable. Parishan (talk) 04:50, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

The onus to achieve consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content. now please, show how your source is reliable. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 04:55, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

ZaniGiovanni, I am afraid WP:ONUS has nothing to do with reliability, and (I must repeat) random dispensing of WP links does not produce a discussion. I hold that the source is reliable because Anglo-Asian Mining is a third-party (London-based) company, which has been involved in mining in Azerbaijan for the past 24 years. Its estimate is also cited by a third-party investor company website [4], as well as by an independent news publication [5]. Parishan (talk) 05:25, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

The Company’s key operations span three active contract areas in Azerbaijan covering 1,062 square kilometres.

The Company started to produce gold in May 2009 at its open pit mine at Gedabek in Western Azerbaijan.[6].

According to their website, they're a profit making mining business in Azerbaijan A leading copper & gold producer in Azerbaijan with a range of assets from exploration to full production. The Group is profitable and pays regular dividends to its shareholders.[7].

Your edit claims Estimated 75% of the mine is lying within Azerbaijan based on an "About Us" page of that company. If you think an “About Us” page of a profit making business website, which operates in Azerbaijan, is a reliable source on controversial post-war area split between Armenia and Azerbaijan, “estimating” said area, I have nothing else to tell you. Unless you can show me a reliable source saying "Estimated 75% of the mine is lying within Azerbaijan", than we can add it. Other than that, this conversation is over. If you still somehow think that your added source is reliable, please go to Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard and ask there. I'd actually love to the reaction of 3rd party editors to your question. P.s Don't forget to link this conversation if you'll decide to ask in RS noticeboard, some lovely context. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 18:54, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

The PSA grants the Company a number of periods to exploit defined licence areas, known as Contract Areas, agreed on the initial signing with the Azerbaijan Ministry of Ecology and Natural Resources (‘MENR’). The exploration period allowed for the early exploration of the Contract Areas to assess prospectivity can be extended[8].

Leadership positions in management – Abduljabar Ahmadov, Vice-President Government Affairs. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 19:01, 3 October 2021 (UTC)