Talk:Second Amendment to the United States Constitution/Archive 27

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Official text

The Text section has been edited to refer to one of the versions of the Second Amendment as being the official version. I believe this is OR. There is no sourcing for one version being the official version and the other version not. I would like to know what other editors think of this issue. SMP0328. (talk) 02:32, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

Well, Certainly there are different versions. (although there appears to be a small edit war on sourcing). Perhaps this link could be a source for the multiple versions (as well as perhaps the sources this site itself used) http://www.archives.gov/publications/prologue/2012/fall/const-errors.html

Here is a nifty article discussing the commas http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/16/opinion/16freedman.html?_r=0, which has a quote bearing on the "official" debate - "Another problem with trying to find meaning in the Second Amendment’s commas is that nobody is certain how many commas it is supposed to have. The version that ended up in the National Archives has three, but that may be a fluke. Legal historians note that some states ratified a two-comma version. At least one recent law journal article refers to a four-comma version."

another book discussing the commas (and weighing in on official) http://books.google.com/books?id=nM4FiKe_XOQC&pg=PT150&dq=second+amendment++comma&hl=en&sa=X&ei=nxamUd2vO-WXiQLqq4DAAw&ved=0CDgQ6AEwAg "The USG is inconsistent in the use of comma in publications. The Statutes at Large (the official permanent record of all laws enacted) does not include the comma. The GPO has produced versions both with and without this comma [...]" This appears to be a circular ref back to wikipedia.

My opinion : Many versions are official, as they were all created through authorized and official processes. This is compounded by the fact that even modern printings are not consistent. However, I do think that calling out the versions as from "The transcript version" or "As written on copy X" or some such is appropriate. Gaijin42 (talk) 15:09, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for your help. SMP0328. (talk) 02:37, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

I think the proper approach would be to use the most consistent version (I'm guessing the national archives version would be the best) and then to add other commas using brackets, and then to have a note indicating the differing versions. Shadowjams (talk) 14:47, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

The following is from a letter to Congressman Tom Campbell, from the Library of Congress. It was later published in: Campbell, Thomas (2004). Separation of Powers in Practice. Stanford University Press. p. 184. ISBN 978-0-8047-5027-1. Retrieved 25 June 2013. (Page 184 is not available via Google Books preview, but you can can get to it on Amazon after logging in and searching):

The Bill of Rights, as passed by both houses of Congress, contained twelve articles. The first two articles failed of ratification, and thus it was article four which ultimately became the Second Amendment. The "official copy of the Joint Resolution of Congress proposing articles to the Legislatures of the States," as exhibited at the National Archives Building contains all three commas. However, to facilitate ratification of the proposed amendments, 13 copies were made by hand for forwarding to the states. At least one of these documents (viewed at the National Archives Building) omitted the final comma. In conveying notice of ratification, some states (e.g. Delaware) merely attached the official state action to the copy received. Other states (e.g. New York) recopied the text of the amendments in its notification. The New York ratification document of March 27, 1790 contains only one comma in the fourth article.

It would seem that the critical documents for final determination of proper punctuation would be the official engrossed copy of the joint resolution as passed by Congress and the document agreed to by each ratifying state. However, the multitude of handwritten copies relied on in the amendment process makes it impossible to determine what the "official" punctuation would be. While there may, in fact, be no "official" punctuation, few have structured their arguments concerning the true intentions of the framers of this amendment around the placement of these commas. The proper use or omission of punctuation may therefore be of little moment in this instance.

— Kent M. Ronhovde, Legislative Attorney for the Library of Congress (undated, circa 1989)

 —Grollτech (talk) 02:28, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

excellent source, very nice. Gaijin42 (talk) 02:43, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

Analysis of Congressional Research Service report

Someone's attempts to mis-use and mis-spin it aside, I think that the Congressional Research Service report has immense quality and value with respect to pre-Heller court cases potentially or actually reflecting on the individual rights question. (the pre-Miller Scotus cases never got anywhere near to dealing with it, they were essentially decided based on general non-incorporation grounds, basically that constitutional amendments at that time protected people against the federal government, but not against state governments) It says that pretty much everyone agrees that Miller was ambiguous on / did not rule on that question. Essentially that it only addressed the collective/militia defense and did not discuss or rule on individual right. It basically said that there was then a approx 60 year fuzzy period where lower level courts were mostly recognizing only a collective right but not saying that an individual right did not exist. The first high level court ruling on the individual right question was Emerson in 2001 saying that an individual right exists. And then another (Silveira) one conflicted with that and another (Parker) concluded that the individual right exists. Parker became Heller (which is where the CRS report ends, prior to the Heller decision.) Heller settled it and McDonald incorporated it.

The scope of the article with respect to the courts is to cover all 2A related Scotus cases, plus some post Heller cases in courts sort of one level down. So this does not include pre-Heller lower court cases. GP's statements were mis-representing mis-spinning that material. If we wanted more comprehensive coverage on that question in the courts, it would probably to add a few sentences to Miller (along the lines of what I summarized, sourced to the CRS report) plus going "one level down" in the courts in the pre-Heller coverage. Not sure whether or not we should do this. I could work on it if we want to. North8000 (talk) 02:28, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

That would be interesting. Such material could give more context as to the legal environment in which Heller existed before SCOTUS ruled on it. SMP0328. (talk) 02:49, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

OK, I'll build it in place piece by piece(no rush). Title would be something like "Individual right and the higher courts" North8000 (talk) 00:25, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

When using a case name use italics and don't say "the ____ case". For example, say Heller, rather than "the Heller case". This is just for consistency's sake. SMP0328. (talk) 02:57, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for catching that. Looks like you fixed those. Thanks. I'm done for now. North8000 (talk) 03:27, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

I've merged the section you created with the section dealing with Court of Appeals dealing post-Heller. Your material is the first subsection, with pre-existing material being the second subsection. Because the two sections dealt with the Courts of Appeals, I felt that they should be one section. SMP0328. (talk) 03:41, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

I'm happy that you are finally considering the inclusion of one of my many reliable sources, but wikipedia is supposed to be a collaborative effort. What right does North have to cherry-pick only the quotations he/she likes rather than a fair and a balanced portrayal of the article? North, if you insert your quotations from the CRS, you have to allow me to do the same.GreekParadise (talk) 05:53, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

The heart of the matter -- as you well know -- is that all of the lower courts post-Miller/pre-Emerson recognized only the collective right, and unless and until you are willing to accurately allow the history of the Second Amendment post-Miller, pre-Emerson to be accurately reflected in the article, the article will never be accurate. You have to allow me to quote from reliable sources, including case law. Also, I have to be able to delete unsourced, unfactual statements.GreekParadise (talk) 05:53, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

To which case are you referring? SMP0328. (talk) 05:58, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

See cases cited above and below.GreekParadise (talk) 06:29, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

Second Amendment article practically useless -- riddled with POV

WARNING: EDITORS REFUSE TO ALLOW INFORMATION FROM HUNDREDS OF RELIABLE SOURCES TO BE CITED REGARDING THE ACCURATE LEGAL HISTORY OF THE SECOND AMENDMENT. Please seek reliable source if you want legal history of the Second Amendment.

If you are reading this article, please be advised that people here pushing a pro-gun agenda have refused to allow the following reliable sources to be used:

1. The Second Amendment itself -- which does NOT protect an unlimited "right to bear arms" but instead in its text modifies the right to bear arms by the dependent clause "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state." The first paragraph is absolutely inaccurate by the express language of the Second Amendment and all US Supreme Court and other Federal court decisions interpreting it, because no Federal Court has ever upheld an unlimited right to bear arms.

2. 60 years of case law by all US Courts from 1939 to 2000 which exclusively found the right to bear arms conditioned on service in a militia. Explicitly thrown out of this article's citations was case law by the United States Supreme Court and case law from every one of the US Court of Appeals from the 1st to the 11th which followed Miller and its progeny until the Heller case.

3. The Library of Congress, the Congressional Research Service, the head Supreme-Court writer for the New York Times, and a large body of Professors have not been allowed to express their views in this article, while obscure gun-advocates have been allowed in. Wikipedia policy expressly allows for data from RELIABLE SOURCES to be included and also allows two sides of a point of view to be expressed.

IN SUM, PLEASE IGNORE THIS ARTICLE. It is inaccurate and the editors here refuse to allow it to be accurate. There has been an on-going edit war that has occurred for several years as editors have pleaded with the NRA-POV-pushers to allow accurate reliable information to be presented here. It has all been unceremoniously reverted even though all had to concede that the deleted information was accurate and reliably sourced.

The article is bullshit. Do not read it. There's a reason why the unsourced paragraphs are unsourced. They are opinion. Reliable information from reliable sources has been deleted. I tried for several months to cite reliable sources such as the Congressional Research Service, the Library of Congress, and direct quotations from US Supreme Court cases. All were rejected in service of a gun agenda.

They want you to believe the Second Amendment allows everyone in America (including the insane and the terrorists) an unlimited right to own guns. It's simply not the case.

If in doubt, read the Second Amendment itself. You'll see why Courts found through more than 200 years of the history of the Second Amendment, found it protects the right of the people to keep and bear arms for service in a well regulated militia but NOT the right to keep and bear arms for murder or for attacks on the Government. Even George Washington put down the Whiskey Rebellion.

It is a shame that the editors of this article are so intent on pushing a gun agenda that they can't follow basic wikipedia policy of allowing reliable sources and showing both sides of a controversy. But sadly the fact remains. For more of the reliable sources that have been excluded, read below:

1. Cases v. United States, 131 F.2d 916 (1st Cir. 1942)

2. United States v. Warin, 530 F.2d 103, 106 (6th Cir. 1976) (“[i]t is clear that the Second Amendment guarantees a collective rather than an individual right.”)

3. Love v. Peppersack, 47 F.3d 120, 123 (4th Cir. 1995) (“the lower federal courts have uniformly held that the Second Amendment preserves a collective, rather than individual right.”)

4. Stevens v. United States, 440 F.2d 144 (6th Cir. 1971) ("Since the Second Amendment right 'to keep and bear Arms' applies only to the right of the State to maintain a militia and not to the individual's right to bear arms, there can be no serious claim to any express constitutional right of an individual to possess a firearm") (citing United States v. Miller).

5. Front page article in Washington Post, March 13, 2013 http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/nra-money-helped-reshape-gun-law/2013/03/13/73d71e22-829a-11e2-b99e-6baf4ebe42df_story.html

In 1977 at a Denver hotel, Don Kates paced a conference room lecturing a small group of young scholars about the Second Amendment and tossing out ideas for law review articles. Back then, it was a pretty weird activity in pursuit of a wacky notion: that the Constitution confers an individual right to possess a firearm.

“This idea for a very long time was just laughed at,” said Nelson Lund, the Patrick Henry professor of constitutional law and the Second Amendment at George Mason University, a chair endowed by the National Rifle Association. “A lot of people thought it was preposterous and just propaganda from gun nuts.” ...

The Second Amendment states: “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.” Before the Heller decision, the Supreme Court and lower courts had interpreted the language as “preserving the authority of the states to maintain militias,” according to a Congressional Research Service analysis.

“It was a settled question, and the overwhelming consensus, bordering on unanimity, was that the Second Amendment granted a collective right” enjoyed by the states, not individuals, Bogus said. Under this interpretation, the Constitution provides no right for an individual to possess a firearm.

Lund [Remember he's the NRA-endowed Second-Amendment professor!] agreed that there was a consensus but said it was “based on ignorance.”

6. Congressional Research Service - http://assets.opencrs.com/rpts/RL34446_20080411.pdf "judicial treatment of the Second Amendment for the remainder of the twentieth century [after Miller] almost summarily concluded that the Amendment conferred only a collective right to keep and bear arms"

7. Library of Congress - http://www.loc.gov/law/help/second-amendment.php "Since United States v. Miller, most federal court decisions considering the Second Amendment have interpreted it as preserving the authority of the states to maintain militias. "

8. Front page article in New York Times - http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/06/us/06firearms.html

"In March [2007], for the first time in the nation’s history [in the Heller case], a federal appeals court struck down a gun control law on Second Amendment grounds. Only a few decades ago, the decision would have been unimaginable. There used to be an almost complete scholarly and judicial consensus that the Second Amendment protects only a collective right of the states to maintain militias."

9. New Yorker - Jeffrey Toobin - http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/comment/2012/12/jeffrey-toobin-second-amendment.html If you think that Toobin is just giving his opinion, then I would suggest it is also proper to remove the comment from Professor Andrew McClurg later in the article.

10. Constitutional Accountability Center - http://theusconstitution.org/sites/default/files/briefs/Where%20Will%20the%20Second%20Amendment%20Revolution%20Lead.pdf

"Twenty-five years ago, it would have been outlandish to predict that the Supreme Court would recognize that the Second Amendment guarantees an individual right to bear arms. The Reagan Justice Department’s version of Crossroads1 did not mention the Second Amendment, and in 1991, no less of an authority than Warren E. Burger, the moderately conservative former Chief Justice of the United States, stated in an interview that the Second Amendment “has been the subject of one of the greatest pieces of fraud—I repeat the word ‘fraud’—on the American public by special interest groups that I have ever seen in my lifetime.”2 Burger’s view, that the Second Amendment’s right to bear arms could not be separated from militia service, was shared by other prominent conservatives, including failed Reagan Supreme Court nominee Robert Bork, who in 1989 argued that the Second Amendment works “to guarantee the right of states to form militias, not for individuals to bear arms.”3 But what Burger viewed to be a “fraud,” and what Bork viewed as a mistaken view of the Constitution’s original meaning, is now the law of the land, courtesy of the Supreme Court’s controversial and deeply divided 5-4 decision in District of Columbia v. Heller.4"

There are many more sources. I have tried to put in at least fifty that have been deleted by editors who concede the sources are reliable but prefer to push their own agenda. Truly sad. But until wikipedia policies are followed, we must keep the disputed tag up. I will not be satisfied until:

a) reliable sources citing factual, relevant, and essential statements about the Second Amendment are allowed to be included in the article, including the text of Supreme Court opinions which must accurately reflect the holdings in those cases; and

b) both sides of the collective/individual controversy are allowed to be presented. "Individualists" can cite any source they want -- even obscure professors endowed by the NRA -- as long as the bias of their sources is made clear. But "Collectivists" should have an equal opportunity to cite their sources as well.

Finally, many of you know I tried mediation but it was rejected by those pushing the NRA-POV here. We are at an impasse.GreekParadise (talk) 05:02, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Those are covered in the article. The issue was that you wanted to insert a particular opinion (and a dubious one at best) as fact into the lead. North8000 (talk) 11:32, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

This was dealt with already. The consensus against you is the same as it was then. You want to insert your opinion into the article as if it is fact. SMP0328. (talk) 17:17, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Sorry folks. You can't have a consensus that 2+2=5. It's false and you know it's false. Reliable sources always trump conjecture.GreekParadise (talk) 05:08, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

I like bulleted lists to break up my logic/arguments, sorry :)

• Miller, the second amendment, the militia act etc are ambiguous

Says who? GreekParadise (talk) 05:08, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

• Some read it as individual, some read it as collective.

No federal court said "individual" until the 21st Century.GreekParadise (talk) 05:08, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

• under wikipedia rules, reliable sources are the supreme authority, but reliable sources from decades/centuries ago are certainly not used in favor of reliable sources using the most up to date information.

For the question of what happened in 1939-99, contemporaneous sources are most relevant. I realize that Brown v. Board of Education overturned segregation in 1954, but to proclaim that no court upheld segregation from 1896 to 1954 would be a lie. And the correct way to determine what courts decided between 1896 and 1954 is to cite decisions in that time period, not to cite current law. I never claimed that the "individual rights" decision was not current law post-Heller. I claimed that it was not law prior to the 21st century. And that is the view universally held by every federal case that analyzed the Second Amendment prior to 2000.GreekParadise (talk) 05:08, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

• Under our form of government, SCOTUS is the supreme authority on what the constitution says, what laws say, and what their own opinions say.

The SCOTUS determines current law. They are not allowed to rewrite history. If the SCOTUS in a 5-4 decision claims that George Washington was never President, it would not be right for wikipedia to delete all claims that George Washington was the First President. It would instead be right to put in all sources (including contemporaneous sources) to show that George Washington was indeed the First President and then to also cite the astonishing SCOTUS decision to claim he was not.GreekParadise (talk) 05:08, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

• In Heller they ruled that the 2nd amendment is individual, and specifically stated that this did not conflict with miller, nor the 2nd

I have no problem accurately reporting the Heller decision.GreekParadise (talk) 05:08, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

• At that moment, all of the collective readers became factually wrong.

A change in the law does NOT make prior history inaccurate. That's why we have classes in legal history. Are you saying that slavery never existed because it is currently illegal?GreekParadise (talk) 05:08, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

• We can still write that some people thought it was collective(its probably notable from a historical perspective (how we got here etc))

We can accurately cite the law as it existed prior to 2000. That's not "some people thinking." It was the law, even though it is currently not the law. And if one justice changes his/her mind and we go back to the collective ruling, I will not want to wipe out the Heller history from this article. I will say that the individual held sway from the Heller decision until the decision that went back to the collective view.GreekParadise (talk) 05:08, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

• All lower court rulings to the contrary immediately are invalidated (again probably historically notable, but must be qualified to say that they are by definition wrong now)

I never claimed they were "right." I claimed they "existed." You cannot wipe out existence. Fact is fact. History is history. It is historically notable. So why are you refusing to allow it in the article?GreekParadise (talk) 05:08, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

• We can still write that some people CONTINUE to think that, and that they think Heller was wrongly decided (less notable unless they get traction)

Sure and you should. But that's not my point. My point is it was the law and it's no longer the law. But it was the law until very very recently.GreekParadise (talk) 05:08, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

• both must be done strongly attributed as peoples opinions, and not as any objective reading/translation of the facts (in light of Hellers giving us the actual reading/translation)

Objectively, it was the law. Objectively it no longer is.GreekParadise (talk) 05:08, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

• but the fact of what miller/2A/law says and means has been indisputably stated (until SCOTUS changes their mind! :) )

Wrong. Miller said what it said and should be reported accurately. What Heller said about Miller should also be reported accurately.GreekParadise (talk) 05:08, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

• Such statement has been reported by many reliable sources since heller.

Gaijin42 (talk) 17:53, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

The collective right interpretation is covered here, here, and here. SMP0328. (talk) 18:20, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Wrong here too. I have been unallowed to CITE FROM MILLER in the wikipedia article on Miller. Why would wikipedians refuse to allow a citation from a case as evidence for what a case said unless they had an ulterior motive?GreekParadise (talk) 05:08, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

So then ... if the above editor and POV dispute submitter is incorrect (evidently, yet again), can we remove the POV/NPOV tag(s) ? 10stone5 (talk) 23:40, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

Nope. Because I'm right and you folks can't find a single source to say I'm wrong.GreekParadise (talk) 05:08, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

I say yes. They didn't even describe it accurately. That stuff is all covered. North8000 (talk) 23:51, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

North's opinion has no weight in wikipedia.GreekParadise (talk) 05:08, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

I'm waiting until tomorrow. If there is no further discussion regarding this alleged POV violation, then I will remove the tag. SMP0328. (talk) 01:21, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

I will continue to replace the tag unless and until reliable sources are allowed to be cited here on this issue. I have suggested mediation, and the "keepers of the article" have sadly refused.GreekParadise (talk) 05:08, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

The thing SMP0328, North8000, and Gaijin42 have in common is that they assert absolute falsehoods as truth with NO EVIDENCE TO BACK UP THEIR FALSEHOODS. This is against wikipedia policy which allows reliable truthful information to be posted. They have made this article useless. To read the true history of the Second Amendment, I suggest reading any of the sources that I have tried to post, from the LIbrary of Congress to the Supreme Court to case law to commentary -- all of which SMP0328, North8000 and Gaijin42 refuse to allow to be posted here.

Why do these wikipedians refuse to allow the truth be posted? Because they want you to think that the Founders idiotically put information in the Second Amendment about militias that has no meaning whatsoever. But the truth is, prior to Heller, the Courts of the United States and Presidents and Congresses of the United States found consistently that the words of the Constitution have meaning and that the Founders were not idiots in believing there was an unlimited individual right to bear arms. There's a very long and undisputed history here that these three editors want to hide from you. Presumably it's to enforce a political agenda which claims that the 5-4 Heller decision less than a decade old and decided by one justice was always the law. But the truth is that the Heller view was considered even by gun advocates to be ridiculously out of the question until very recently.

How do you know that I'm telling the truth and the others are lying? Easy. I cite sources. They do not. Here's another way to tell. The VERY FIRST SENTENCE of the article is a lie. They say; "The Second Amendment (Amendment II) to the United States Constitution is the part of the United States Bill of Rights that protects the right to keep and bear arms." But it does not do this. I modified the first paragraph to reflect what the Second Amendment actually says, that it provides a limited right to bear arms to serve the purpose of a well regulated militia. Even Heller does not claim the Second Amendment protects the right to keep and bear arms because it cites a series of limitations to that right.

If you are new to wikipedia, you should know that in certain articles, this happens all the time. Unscrupulous editors refuse to compromise to allow reliable sources to be presented that do not conform to their political agenda. Their goal is to post propaganda to trick you into believing a lie is true. There is unfortunately no way to discipline these charlatans except by posting messages such as these. I have repeatedly sought mediation and they have repeatedly refused.

In wikipedia, one is required to assume good faith until proven otherwise. That's why for several months, I urged, begged, and pleaded with these wikipedians to review my impeccable sources. They not only refused to read my sources; they claimed that their PERSONAL OPINION has more merit than the Supreme Court, Court decisions from virtually every Federal Circuit Court of Appeals, the Library of Congress, the New York Times, the Congressional Research Service and scholarly opinion (including opinion from honest NRA representatives who nonetheless concede that the "individual rights" theory is a very recent legal interpretation. These editors must know they're wrong, because rather than dispute my sources -- or provide their sourced opinions in addition to mine (difficult to do because my sources are true and theirs are non-existent), they simply unceremoniously reverted everything that they did not wish was true. And they still do this. They still claim their personal opinion has more value than actual language from Supreme Court opinions. One must assume good faith until bad faith is objectively proven. I believe that now bad faith has been objectively proven. And that makes me sad.

I'm afraid this warning is the only way to let people know the article is useless. Unless these editors are willing to follow wikipedia policy and allow reliable sources to be cited, I will continue to post this warning.

Ask yourself why these editors are fighting so hard not to allow objectively true legal history to be presented. Why not simply allow the history to be presented objectively and then talk about their current views in the opinion section? Why? Because they want to mislead you. Just remember: 2+2=4. And no matter how many times they tell you 2+2=5, don't believe them.

I again challenge the "keepers of the article" to allow objectively true information backed up by hundreds of reliable sources to be cited in the article, even if it does not fit your personal agenda. I firmly believe Wikipedia should be objective.

GreekParadise (talk) 04:22, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Greek Paradise, your descriptions above do not match what you were trying to do which to war in a dubious highly spun unsourced POV statement into the lead. This is getting disruptive. North8000 (talk) 10:02, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

• One other comment. Greek Paradise, please refrain from changing user comments on a talk page, whether it is for formatting purpose or otherwise. In this case, there was no change to context. Still, that is a first for me on wikipedia.

Further, as one who has not been involved in any of the edits for this article, I simply can not see the point of this above statement, 'The thing SMP0328, North8000, and Gaijin42 have in common is that they assert absolute falsehoods as truth with NO EVIDENCE TO BACK UP THEIR FALSEHOODS.' While I won't invoke any sort of wiki rules on that statement, I will make the general comment that Greek Paradise's POV argument is bordering on stage four and five, from the dispute resolution page, using Graham's Hierarchy of Disagreement as a guideline -----

https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/File:Graham%27s_Hierarchy_of_Disagreement1.svg

The next step down is ad hominem, if this dipute does not get resolved amicably. 10stone5 (talk) 23:44, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

SMP, not I, changed the user comment headers from his original "Synthesis" and my original "Second Amendment article practically useless -- riddled with POV" to "POV Dispute". I have returned the headers in the comment section to how he and I originally wrote them. I ask that no one edit talk page comments or headers further.GreekParadise (talk) 06:27, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

I have also laid out specifically below what I want to edit on the page, just as I did three months ago. I ask all to agree that I be allowed to edit the article based on my contentions so long as all agree that my sources are correctly cited, unimpeachable, and relevant. I don't dispute other editors' rights to include relevant facts and quotations backed up by reliable sources. I do dispute their right to delete mine.GreekParadise (talk) 06:27, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

@GreekParadise: If I can make an observation as an uninvolved editor... I can honestly say that I have yet to take the time to read this page so as to understand the crux of the argument, and to make an informed decision as to whether or not I agree with one side or the other. The unfortunate reality of human nature is that more often than not, a successful argument is successful not because of what one says, but because of how it is said. In other words, the content matters less than its packaging, and I can see several things wrong with the packaging as presented on this page.

For one, a vast majority of people will take one look at this page (which looks like somebody puked all over it) and then say, "WP:Too long; didn't read". Already, your pool of potential allies and converts has been sharply reduced. Next, the few that stick around a little longer will scan the page to get an overall sense. That won't help you either, I'm afraid, because the overall sense is one of aggressiveness and intolerance of anyone who disagrees with you. As soon as they read statements like "Nope. Because I'm right and you folks can't find a single source to say I'm wrong" or "North's opinion has no weight in wikipedia", you've lost the rest of them, and they haven't even gotten to understanding the content of your message. Whether it's founded upon an impassioned belief in a clear right vs. a clear wrong is immaterial, because few will tend to align themselves with an approach that has the appearance, even if only on its surface, as that of a "fanatical fringe".  —Grollτech (talk) 15:01, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

Disruption & worse

The last edit that GreekParadise was trying to hammer in was wanting to put a dubious, unsourced POV statement into the lead. Including wanting to a lack of addressing (until modern times) of high level courts as to whether an individual right exists as being a statement that it did not, and statements that a collective right exists as saying that an individual one did not. They also pasted in the same thousands and thousands of words again and again into talk. This time that haven't even put in any proposal with the huge amount of rant, accusations and insults that they have put in above. And if it ends up being the same edit, then the above provides no support for it and bears little relation to it. Including that most of the areas ranted about are already in the article. This is getting disruptive, is full of insults and personal attacks, and the above paste and rant is not even a discussion. GreekParadize, please stop disrupting insulting and attacking. North8000 (talk) 00:30, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

The so-called dubious, unsourced POV that North complains about (that the Second Amendment has a militia clause that used to be respected by the courts) is backed up by hundreds of sources including the Library of Congress, the New York Times, several Supreme Court cases, numerous Court of Appeals cases, and the language of the Second Amendment itself. North continues to hate the truth but has no sources to challenge mine. Thus the claims of "disruptive editing." North, if you disagree and you think the Second Amendment does not in fact include a militia clause or that no court ever held it so, the right wikipedia decision is to allow me to post my sources and you post yours. My sources include dozens of cases. Do you have a single court case to back up your claim post-Miller and pre-Heller? If you do not have any source to back up your claims, I ask that you cease discussion and editing and personal attacks.GreekParadise (talk) 05:00, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

I'll be honest, I've not bothered to read the full dispute here. I did review the article, then as is my custom, turned to the talk page. The article overall seems relatively balanced, though there could be more on the controversy throughout US history, with inconsistent SCOTUS and inferior courts rulings over the centuries. That said, what is operable is that Congress found it necessary to create a second amendment, that was well documented in this article. Their reasoning and the debate was sketched out, for details one goes to the references, which is proper for an encyclopedia. As for the argument as to individual or collective right, history shows clearly enough that it was both, as shortly after the second amendment was ratified, the militia act defined the militia under federal law. The only primary things changed in the various militia acts were the age of service and various qualifying factors (initially, only white men, later that was removed) until the militia act of 1903 created the organized militia as the National Guard and the unorganized militia, which was every able bodied male between 18-45 and prior service men to age 61 as the unorganized militia and also eligible for membership in the National Guard. Later amendments changed the status of women serving in the National Guard. One does not define the majority of the service age populace as militia and then claim that that large segment is the only segment of populace permitted to keep and bear arms, especially as people did hunt for subsistence then and even now in remote areas of the country. Indeed, Daniel Boone wasn't an outlaw, but did keep and bear arms outside of a military context of any sort. The number of other references throughout US history would be extensive. The key idea was that a significant number of the populace would be available in time of regional or national emergency. The militia act of 1903 was written due to the spectacular failures of the militia when mobilized in time of war, ill equipped, poorly equipped, shoddy training, lousy discipline, inept officers leading the rabble contributed to extremely high casualty counts on the part of the mobilized militias. Hence, the segmenting of the militia and there is some consideration of the creation of the Civilian Marksmanship Program as a nod toward training of the unorganized militia. That will require further research before it can be utilized either way, as it is part of a general discussion elsewhere on the history of the militias overall. Much of this I learned while doing the research of a local National Guard unit that turned out to have been founded by Benjamin Franklin, during that research I encountered much of Scalia's research, which is quite readily available. The fact is, at the time, the usage of keep and bear arms was dual use, both in a military capacity and in bearing arms for home and community defense (there was no organized police force at the time) and also for hunting. That said, the notion proposed by far right types who proclaim it remains possible "to repel tyranny" is absurd in the face of our modern military. For, they believe that their AR15 can somehow overcome 105 and 155mm howitzers, M1A tanks, B52 bombers, MLRS, various fast attack aircraft, mortars, armored personnel carriers, infantry fighting vehicles, smart bombs, guided missiles, drones, electronic warfare units, Special Operations teams, ad absurdium to success. Ignoring the fantastic inability of the Taliban, who have equipment far in excess of the majority of armed US citizens (including RPG's galore) to eject the US Armed Forces from Afghanistan or the Iraqi military's inability to prevent the US Armed Forces from entering Iraq and removing its government, regardless of how one feels about said military operations, the fact remains that the concept of the past is the absurdity of the present in that context, even if one managed to succeed in recruiting the majority of militia age men and women and managing to equip them with modern military style firearms. However, said people could augment the National Guard, under the orders of their local or state government in time of a major disaster, as has repeatedly happened in the past, though their ability to exercise police powers would be dubious at best today, even under posse comitatus conditions, as today, there is a greater burden of knowledge of the law for those exercising police powers.

Still, the fact is, back when the second amendment was penned, firearm ownership was relatively high, compared to the majority of US history. The nation was still partially frontier, hunting, threats from Native Americans was high, international tensions were still rather high, as 1812 quite well proved and citizen ownership of firearms was both common and important. However, military type muskets or rifles were rather expensive and rare, typically only the wealthy possessed said firearms and most certainly only the wealthy could possess a field piece (aka cannon)! To properly understand what the second amendment was meant to be for and what the thinking was behind it requires study of the history, reading of both sides of the argument's writings, which are extensive and knowledge of the concerns of the time regarding threats, both internal and external. For sources, I'd regrettably stay away from NRA pages, I'd go with papers at the Constitution Center, National Archives, Library of Congress and various educational institutions. In short, those without a political agenda, but do have the hard documentation of the era. Lest a reader become mislead by either our frontiersmen were armed with guns that had a bang flag pop out of the muzzle when fired or that the Founding Fathers wanted every home to have a 155mm howitzer in the front yard, neither of which is anywhere near the truth. I hope that this helped a bit.Wzrd1 (talk) 00:41, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

What a large amount of thorough work you have done! North8000 (talk) 01:03, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

Synthesis

I have reverted a series of edits that claimed that suggested that the collective right view of the Second Amendment was the one followed by the federal court and that the Supreme Court's Miller decision interpreted the Second Amendment this way. These edits also removed sourced material that showed that the amendment's meaning was uncertain before District of Columbia v. Heller. This was synthesis by an editor who believes the Second Amendment only protects a right of the States (i.e., a collective right). He is entitled to his opinion, but not to have this article promote his opinion. SMP0328. (talk) 23:42, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

I hereby lay down the gauntlet and challenge SMP0328 to find a reliable source -- such as case law any time in the six decades following Miller -- that supports his position. I've provided 10 sources that expressly say that "the collective right view of the Second Amendment was the one followed by the federal court and that the Supreme Court's Miller decision interpreted the Second Amendment this way." He has provided ZERO sources to the contrary. That means, according to wikipedia rules, that the view supported by 10 reliable sources (and frankly, 100 more) gets in the article and SMP0328's view has no right to be in the article.GreekParadise (talk) 06:27, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

"If African Americans were citizens, observed Chief Justice Taney in Dred Scott v. Sandford,[1] 'it would give to persons of the negro race ... the full liberty of speech ...; to hold public meetings upon political affairs, and to keep and carry arms wherever they went.'" --US Supreme Court Chief Justice Taney, Dredd v Sanford, 1857

Countless examples abound if you are willing to research. collectivism in a relatively new aberration in logic and one clearly refuted by the highest court. It's clearly an individual right, Always has been. I fail to see why GreekParadise shows up here month after month with the same accusations and tired flawed arguments. Please read Freedmen, the Fourteenth Amendment, and the Right to Bear Arms, 1866-1876 in its entirety and the laws of reconstruction. Federalist papers and early colonial and revolutionary history also clearly show it as an individual right as has the US Supreme Court affirmed in Heller and McDonald recently, I tire. -Justanonymous (talk) 22:04, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Are people really still arguing the collective/individual right thing? Was this not put to bed by the supreme court? Not even the brady campaign argues this anymore. That pretty much makes the collective argument fringe, and unworthy of recognition on wikipedia. ∴ Naapple TALK|CON 22:10, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Ahemmmm.....

....might I just remind in the friendliest fashion everybody involved here that there seems to be another edit-war brewing....one user is over 3RR already. Calm down, again. Lectonar (talk) 19:50, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

I actually think that an RfC might be the only way forward here....negotiation and discussion seem to be leading nowhere. Lectonar (talk) 19:54, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

There is no specific question. GreekParadise just carpet bombs. Once we have a specific question we can have an actual discussion. For a first attempt, see my question above on the Lewis case. North8000 (talk) 20:03, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

If I might say so: frankly, this article has been a mess virtually for years, and I really think much greater community input might be a way forward here (but I am almost always too optimistic...); I saw good work in March this year and the following months, but this seems somewhat forgotten now...Lectonar (talk) 20:26, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

I honestly think that an RfC would be a good idea, as an SME can easily dispel misconceptions on both sides. Even money, even some parts of my own opinion. It is a contentious subject, hence it demands a greater consideration to the law, case law and culture that would require more informed input. There are unsettled case law issues present, though none I've viewed suggested said case law. There are other matters that confuse some, as comments are considered case law, which they are most certainly not. So, clear guidance is required.Wzrd1 (talk) 04:39, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

We need to be clear about our disagreements.

Please respond specifically to any disagreements you have with the following statements. I think it is disruptive to refuse to allow truthful, reliably sourced relevant information to be placed in a wikipedia article on the grounds that certain editors "believe" without any evidence that reliable sources are untrue. So if you disagree with the statements below, please provide a reliable source to back up your disagreement. As you all know, I have a large number of unimpeachable sources to back up every statement I make below. If you're in doubt, check out our prior discussion for months on the talk page dating back to January 2013. And if you respond respectfully and ask me for a source for any of the statements below, I will re-state my sources yet again.

The heart of my disagreements are as follows:

1. I contend the Second Amendment confers a limited rather than an unlimited right to bear arms. Does anyone here disagree?

2. I contend the Second Amendment is the sole Amendment in the Bill of Rights that gives a purpose for its declarative statement, rather than a flat-out prohibition/requirement. Does anyone here disagree?

3. I contend I have a right to accurately quote verbatim from the Miller case. I want to say the case held the Second Amendment "must be interpreted and applied" with its "obvious purpose" in view: "to assure the continuation and render possible the effectiveness" of the Militia. The Court found therefor that the Second Amendment does not "guarantee[] the right to keep and bear" a firearm that has no "reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia." (United States v. Miller, 307 U.S. 174, 178) Does anyone here disagree? I am happy to quote the case more at length if anyone believes these quotations are taken out of context.

4. I contend that post-Miller and pre-Emerson, the United States Supreme Court and all of the U.S. federal courts unanimously found the Second Amendment to be limited to a collective right to bear arms in a well regulated militia rather than an invidual right. And I want to cite a dozen or so of these cases in the footnote, including many direct quotations, because so many of you seem to think this obvious fact is somehow untrue. I also want to cite scholarly sources and the Library of Congress which say the same thing, mostly because most of you continue to dispute this. Does anyone here disagree that I have a right to do this?

5. I contend I have a right to say what the Cruikshank court "upheld a state's restriction on firearm possession." Does anyone here disagree?

6. I want to quote the U.S. Supreme Court case of Lewis v. United States (1980), which says at 445 U.S. 55, 65 n.8 (1980) verbatim as follows: "the Second Amendment guarantees no right to keep and bear a firearm that does not have 'some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia.'" Does anyone here disagree I have a right to do that? (Hint: not liking or agreeing with Lewis is not grounds to prevent me from citing a Supreme Court opinion. You are allowed to distinguish Lewis if you want, but I should be allowed to quote from it.)

7. I want to be able to edit this article without being summarily reverted. If you don't like the facts I show in my sources, you are welcome to add some of your own (backed up by reliable sources of course). But arguing that federal courts, the NYT, the US Supreme Court, and the Library of Congress are not reliable sources is a non-starter. You are free to add to any quotations you believe I take out of context. But you are not free to delete quotations from reliable sources just to keep generally-accepted facts from being posted in a wikipedia article. Does anyone disagree with me on this?

Wikipedia does not entrust articles to the hands of specific editors. It is a collective enterprise. It is not supposed to reflect a specific point of view. To that end, people of different points of views should be able to edit the article to add relevant, factual information from unimpeachable sources.

Continually reverting my edits without addressing the seven points above will lead me to continue to contest the neutrality of this article forevermore.GreekParadise (talk) 06:30, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

8. I contend I have the right to make clear that no federal case prior to Heller found an individual right to bear arms (which is why it was a landmark case) and that no case prior to McDonald found the Second Amendment restricted State Governments (which is why it was a landmark case). These undisputed facts used to be in the article. There was no good reason to take it out except, I fear, to intentionally mislead. Does anyone disagree with putting back this accurate information?GreekParadise (talk) 06:43, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

Your quest has never been about putting in information, it has been about putting in spin via an array of methods. In essence the article already presents everything that you are describing in a neutral manner, and you want it covered in a spun manner. THAT is the disagreement Also that you want to insert your personal commentary into the article. To take one of many examples of the former, Miller was addressing the "militia" route and the quote was saying that there is not a right to unlimited weapon types under that route. You have been wanting to present stuff out of context in a way that would mislead readers into thinking that they had addressed and ruled on the individual right question; sources on both sides of the issue agree that they didn't do that. North8000 (talk) 11:34, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

Your ad hominem attack is strong evidence that you cannot refute my claims. You cannot read my brain, don't know my "quest" better than I do, and frankly, my intentions are irrelevant. The question is can a reliable relevant source be quoted in context and verbatim or can it not be? And if your answer is a reliable relevant source cannot be quoted in context if it does not serve the express interests of the National Rifle Association, then it is you -- not me -- that has a bias problem and should refrain from editing wikipedia further.GreekParadise (talk) 07:15, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Here is the crux of the problem : "reasonable relationship to maintenance of a militia" does not necessarily mean collective. Having individuals have the rights to weapons could further that goal. Miller was ambiguous as to this point. SCOTUS is the 100% arbiter of what their own rulings mean, and they have explicitly said that Heller does not contradict Miller or Cruikshank. Secondly, although it states a preface, there is no indication that the right is limited to the preface (as again, explicitly ruled in Heller). I do not disagree that lower courts ruled as if the right was collective, and we mention that in the article already. Heller said they were wrong. They were always wrong, we just didn't know it until Heller, as Heller is the first time to directly address the question (and that is what makes it a landmark). Gaijin42 (talk) 15:10, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

I'm glad we agree that SCOTUS is the 100% arbiter of what their own rulings mean. I assume this means you'll let me give the SCOTUS interpreation of Miller cited in Lews (1980)GreekParadise (talk) 07:14, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

• re: 'We need to be clear about our disagreements'

Again, I'd point out that this article's talk page has gone beyond the recommended Wikipedia Dispute resolution, into stage four / five -- Contradiction & Responding to Tone -- WP:DISPUTE

So that would signify an impasse in 'Dispute resolution', 'Avoiding conflict'.

I'd suggest 'Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard' -- but things have moved beyond that.

One avenue, which seems likeliest, would be 'Wikipedia:Requests for comment' WP:RFC, where outside editors could judge the dispute, the article content, and / or user conduct, in a formal setting.

The other option, Wikipedia:Dispute resolution requests, WP:DRR, seems pre-mature, and much too formal a process, based on where this article and where this talk page stands right now. Looking briefly at the archives, this wouldn't be the first time this article went up for RfC. Also, this dispute, at least the content of this dispute, dates to March of this year. This should have been resolved by now. Lastly, GreekParadise, I searched in Wikipedia:Requests for mediation WP:RFM & Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests WP:RFAR, and found no formal requests for mediation/arbitration though the wiki community. Please post links of this mediation, if available. 10stone5 (talk) 20:27, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

GreekParadise either carpet bombs the article or carpet bombs the talk page, both impossible to specifically deal with. There is no dialog or specific proposals of changes. (By "specific" I don't mean the whole carpet bomb) A good next step for them would be to propose a specific change. If pretty solid and sourced and factual (and the lead is not the place to start) and not too huge even try it on a BRD basis. And if it's an opinion, trying it in the opinions section. North8000 (talk) 01:20, 28 June 2013 (UTC) North8000 (talk) 11:36, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

GreekParadise’s comments are merely a massive rehash of the same unpersuasive arguments presented on this Talk Page and DRN [1] back in March 2013. IMHO further discussion is not worthy of any serious editor’s time as a consensus was reached not to include his attempts at POV. Grahamboat (talk) 18:08, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

Not uncommon for someone to carpet bomb when they feel strongly and know no better. That said, let's address a few of GeekParadise's points:

1: Considering that those who penned the second amendment did personally, in many cases, purchase cannon for their militia units, I'd suggest that there was no limitations considered at the time. That was largely because only the wealthy could afford military type muskets, rifles and cannon and the wealthy wished to not lose their wealth by creating a public hazard with said weapons, hence were responsible people. 2: It's been well discussed in the article, by Scalia in Heller and by historians who give all sides of the argument. It was a compromise, as the militia act later clarified precisely who the militia was, every able bodied white male between 18 and 45 at the time. The act was changed various times, the greatest change being in 1903, which divided the militia into the organized militia named the National Guard and the unorganized militia, which was every able bodied male between 18 and 45, as well as prior service men to age 61, who could be in either group as they desired. Meanwhile, there as not even a suggestion that a man of 46 should dispose of his firearm, as it was rather common for men to possess a firearm for home defense and for hunting, depending on their station in life and where they lived. 3: Miller was a bit more complex than you hint at. The NFA had recently been enacted, due to the horror over Dillinger, the St Valentine's Massacre and the carnage of other criminals throughout the land using short barreled rifles, short barreled shotguns and Thompson sub-machineguns. The defendants in Miller did cross state lines with NFA restricted firearms in a manner that was unlawful. Short barreled shotguns were not common in military use, save for trench action during WWI and not since, due to a lack of accuracy at combat ranges beyond the short range of trench fighting. As said weapons were not kept as part of the Department of War inventory of arms, they were not permissible as militia arms and they most certainly had no sporting usage, hence their only purpose in civilian hands could be considered at that time as only for the use in criminal activities. Just as relatively recently, the "Street Sweeper" shotgun was defined as a destructive weapon, with no sporting purpose and most certainly not in the US military arsenal at that time or currently. 4: Actually, it's been largely silent, the desire appears to be twofold. On one part, it really is a political question and should be politically decided. On the other part, some degree of confusion on the part of the justices, as evidenced by Steven's revisionist history model, which really is a living document opinion. 5: You can say anything that you wish to, right or wrong. That said, a state can regulate what is permitted within their borders with only few restrictions and that includes firearms and classes of firearms. That has long, long been held as a states rights issue that devolves to the states with only rare exceptions that would impact interstate commerce. 6: Erm, I really don't know whereinhell you're going with this one. A convicted felon cannot be a member of the militia at all under any militia act. I also don't see the quote you gave anywhere in the SCOTUS opinion. That said, I did see this in the opinion: "So, under Title VII, every citizen could possess a gun 63*63 until the commission of his first felony. Upon his conviction, however, Title VII would deny every assassin, murderer, thief and burglar of the right to possess a firearm in the future except where he has been pardoned by the President or a State Governor and had been expressedly authorized by his pardon to possess a firearm." 114 Cong. Rec. 14773 (1968)." Can't agree to what I can't read in the SCOTUS decision. 7: Considering the acrimonious discussion and the above error, I'd suggest you sandbox your changes on your user page and solicit input on the changes. 8: Again, I suggest you sandbox your proposed changes and seek consensus. I suspect that you have something worthy to contribute, but the approach made only ended up in mutual antagonism. Sandboxed revisions can be discussed, worked on mutually and a consensus achieved that can improve the article.Wzrd1 (talk) 01:24, 30 June 2013 (UTC).

Wzrd1, I have tried a dozen times for months to do things that would seem uncontroversial in other articles, such as directly quoting from a Supreme Court decision. All my attempts have been unceremoniously reverted. I attempted dispute resolution here:http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard/Archive_67#Second_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution And it has been tried by others here:http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard/Archive_28 Not to mention the many attempts on the talk page for several years going back.GreekParadise (talk) 18:59, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

And there has been no attempt to address my arguments either. There's not a single article or scholar in the nation that would say the American people have an unlimited right to bear arms. Editors here (including unfortunately yourself) claim they can refute my highly sourced undisputed factual material with opinions of their own. I ask you to provide a single citation for any claims you make. I know of no court opinion, no scholar, no published work anywhere in the world that says that the American People have an unlimited right to bear arms. If they did, machine guns would be legal. So you can say what you wish, but a mere say-so has no weight. Of course, even if you found a citation to say that the Second Amendment does not contain the words "A well-regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state," that would not make it true. The claims I make are unexceptional and there are literally thousands of sources to back them up. The contrary claims are simply false and have no citations to back them up. Got a citation to dispute any of my eight points? Then I should be able to put them in with my citations and you could put in your contrary citations. That is the wikipedia way.

But just to prove to you that the editors here refuse to allow obviously accurate material to be added, I will go step by step. My first step will be to add a direct quote from a Supreme Court decision that the "keepers of this article" don't want people to know about. Think they will leave in a verbatim quote from a Supreme Court decision? They will not. They will revert it immediately. You watch.GreekParadise (talk) 18:59, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

You are setting up a straw man "the American people have an unlimited right to bear arms." which nobody here has said and which the article does not say (in fact it says the opposite) and insulting / attacking the editors here by pretending that they have said it, or making a smoke screen by pretending that the article says it. Neither of which is the case. So why don't you show us where the regular editors or the article says that there is an unlimited right to bear arms?

If you have an edit which you think would be controversial, you could either try it (a specific edit, not another carpet bomb) on a BRD basis (and "R" is common, not persecution) or discuss it here first. North8000 (talk) 19:09, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Then you should have no problem if I add the word "limited" which I will do. I get it. People don't want to read of a dozen problems with the article. I can go one by one. Baby steps.GreekParadise (talk) 19:29, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

All rights are limited.North8000 (talk) 19:37, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

If we're missing a 2A related Scotus case, let's talk about it here because we'd want to get it in in a neutral enclyclopedic manner. Starting in the body of the article. North8000 (talk) 19:26, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

I've added Lewis v. United States (1980). I don't think this Supreme Court should be in the body of the article, precisely because so many editors here don't believe to be true what the Lewis case says about Miller. Editors here have claimed -- without a single source to back up these claims -- that the holding in Miller was considered by the courts to be ambiguous. In fact, Lewis -- and dozens of lower court decisions -- explain exactly how the Supreme Court and federal courts viewed Miller throughout the 20th Century. Until Heller, Miller was settled law. And since the Supreme Court said so in 1980 -- and it did -- and all the lower courts said so from the 1940's to the 1990's -- and they did -- these facts should be included in the article notwithstanding the wish by some editors here and perhaps even some scholars who wish that the legal history of the Second Amendment had been different. It is true Heller criticized this 60-year body of case law, and that should be pointed out as well. But to pretend 60+ years of legal history did not happen is Orwellian.GreekParadise (talk) 19:37, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Let's focus instead of carpet bombing. Are you saying that Lewis v. United States is a 2A-related US Supreme Court case? If so we should get it into the article. The lead is a summary of what is in the body of the article and so the starting point would be the body of the article.

I added a direct quotation from Lewis which cited Miller for the proposition that I cited in the article. I'd be happy to edit the body, but as you know, no matter how well I source my statements, they are reverted. I will respect your wishes and add it to the body first. But I would ask that nothing be reverted unless you dispute either my sources or my characterization of my sources and you explain on the talk page prior to reverting.GreekParadise (talk) 20:01, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Back to my actual question which you just evaded, are you saying that Lewis v. United States is a 2A-related US Supreme Court case? North8000 (talk) 20:05, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes, of course. And if you want it in the body, you could have put it there. Your removal of a United States Supreme Court case on the Second Amendment without reviewing the case to see that it was in fact accurate is in bad faith. I would ask you respectfully to act in good faith by returning the citations of Lewis and the other eleven cases I cited in the footnote, if not to the header than at least to the body of the article, and that you not revert any future edits that you know to be accurately sourced.GreekParadise (talk) 20:27, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

First, Lewis v. United States 445 U.S. 55 (1980) was not quite a second amendment case per se, it was regarding the prohibition of a convicted felon possessing a firearm which was a violation of 1202 (a) (1) of Title VII of the Omnibus Crime Control and Safe Streets Act of 1968. Pp. 60-68. Relevant in the decision, '"So, under Title VII, every citizen could possess a gun [445 U.S. 55, 63] until the commission of his first felony. Upon his conviction, however, Title VII would deny every assassin, murderer, thief and burglar of the right to possess a firearm in the future except where he has been pardoned by the President or a State Governor and had been expressedly authorized by his pardon to possess a firearm.' 114 Cong. Rec. 14773 (1968)." Further discussion in the decision mentioned the remedies available to the convicted felon to remove his disability that were not attempted.

As for limited rights to the possession of firearms v unlimited, in the past, there were no limits. Indeed, artillery and firearms used by the southern states during the civil war were privately acquired weapons. The same was true of militias arms before the inception of the United States and continued intermittently and currently exists today, under the NFA tax stamp scheme. One can purchase an artillery piece even today, as well as fully automatic weapons and other destructive weapons by purchasing a BATFE tax stamp and passing the background investigation. The only realistic barrier that exists now is due to the Orwellian named Firearms Owner Protection Act, which banned the sales to civilians machineguns that were not registered before May 19, 1986 (that is the Orwellian part), though to be honest, I have no heartburn over that limitation. I just have a dislike when an act restricts a right when its title proclaims protection. As that is POV, I'd not ever consider adding such a POV to an article. As the law stands today, I can lawfully purchase an M4 or M16, M60 machinegun, M2 .50 caliber machinegun, mortar, artillery piece and the rounds to accompany said firearms. That I have no use for such things is irrelevant, that I lawfully could acquire said weapons is telling of limitations. The limitations come into effect when one is a convicted felon, substance abuser, insane, a subject to a court order that restrains the person from harassing, stalking, or threatening an intimate partner or child of such intimate partner, an illegal alien, a dishonorably discharged service member, a convicted domestic abuser, or under indictment or information for a crime (misdemeanor) punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding two years cannot lawfully receive a firearm. Such person may continue to lawfully possess firearms obtained prior to the indictment or information, and if cleared or acquitted can receive firearms without restriction. Its all on Form 4473. The vast majority of the populace do not fit in those prohibited disabilities, so therefor can purchase a firearm and most of those can also pass an SSBI and acquire an NFA firearm if they do desire. As a point of fact, I personally own a dozen firearms, about half were inherited, the rest being competition firearms or hunting firearms, many of the inherited firearms are antique firearms, though one that I inherited was infamous self-disassembly upon firing.Wzrd1 (talk) 00:57, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Interesting OR, Wzrd1. Of course it doesn't change what the Lewis Court said about Miller, but it is interesting. Thank you.GreekParadise (talk) 04:26, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

GreekParadise,I would have moved it except there was no Lewis material there. There was a Miller item that you described as Lewis, (again, out of context / without analysis so as to confuse it's meaning) plus some POV characterization of ensuing years. North8000 (talk) 01:34, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

North, you claim *I* misstated Miller "out of context/without analysis so as to confuse its meaning". But your complaint is not with me. It's with the Supreme Court. I directly quoted Lewis verbatim. So your real complaint is that the Supreme Court in Lewis misstated Miller "out of context/without analysis so as to confuse its meaning". And you have a right to say so. After we quote Lewis in the article, you can say that some commentators think Lewis misstated Miller. And then provide a source. (Even though I note that none of the nine justices disputed Lewis' rendition of Miller but four of the justices disputed Heller's rendition of Miller.) But the one thing you cannot do is refuse to include Lewis' statement of Miller just because you disagree with it. What did Lewis say about Miller in footnote 8? I will repeat it for the third time and keep repeating it until you acknowledge having read it, reviewed it in the original, and determined that I am quoting it accurately. Here is the full context:

"These legislative restrictions on the use of firearms are neither based upon constitutionally suspect criteria nor do they trench upon any constitutionally protected liberties. See United States v. Miller, 307 U. S. 174, 307 U. S. 178 (1939) (the Second Amendment guarantees no right to keep and bear a firearm that does not have "some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia");"

Whether you agree or disagree with the Lewis Court's description of Miller is irrelevant. It happened. It has a right to be included in this article. Please read Lewis case: http://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/445/55/case.html GreekParadise (talk) 04:26, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Erm, let me get this right now. Whether Lewis was a second amendment case or not, it is a second amendment case. Lewis was a convicted felon who complained about the fact that convicted felons cannot possess firearms, but never at all invoked the second amendment at all, hence the case was of the law prohibiting convicted felons from possessing firearms, which is only remotely second amendment related by two degrees in a court of law, which seems to also be irrelevant to you. Frankly, I don't know *where* you are coming from, as you come up with tangential cases that are not even remotely under the pleas second amendment cases, take one singular remark as the primary cause of the day and proceed boldly forth. You're a nice person, we can debate offline from Wikipedia, but you're beyond off base on Lewis. It was NOT a second amendment case, due to the pleas of both parties, hence a remark is only a remark, not an opinion of the court. Something the court itself remarked upon repeatedly over the centuries, though I'll admit to not have a citation available right now, as it's late, I'm exhausted and I must arise tomorrow morning to care for my elderly father. The fact remains, Lewis was NOT a second amendment case, incidental remarks do not make it so, per repeated case law. Do your own homework, I have no time to do it for you. Your view is fundamentally flawed, but somewhat correct based upon case law, but your POV is incorrect in general, as you do not know other items that were perfected in actual case law, since you consider incidental comments as case law, which they are most certainly not. It is annoying, true, it is inefficient, true. It is what we have to operate under and what is effective in a court of law, for better or worse.Wzrd1 (talk) 04:35, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Wzrd1, can you check the second sentence in your post? I can't understand it / maybe has a typo. North8000 (talk) 11:18, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

It was as I intended, as the one party in this discussion wanted to make Lewis a second amendment case when it clearly was not a second amendment case, save for only one singular remark made by one SCOTUS jurist. In short, a remark upon circular logic that always ended up being an argument that the case itself never was, except in the mind of one person.Wzrd1 (talk) 12:02, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Not one person. This was not a concurrence. This was the full opinion of the Supreme Court. Six justices agreed. (And the other three in dissent did not dispute it either.) This should be unsurprising, as every one of the eleven circuit courts of appeal had the same opinion of Miller in 1980.

Actually it was a footnote, probably inserted by a law clerk, referring to another case that referred to Miller – very circular and definitely cannot be quoted. You are correct this was not a 2A case. It was a 5A case under the Due Process Clause issue about a supposed wrongful conviction. Neither 2A nor Miller were discussed. This is just another example of GreekParadise’s mischaracterization of his “reliable sources”. Cheers. Grahamboat (talk) 18:50, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Miller on individual right

GreekParadise you just took out of the lead that Miller is considered ambiguous on the question of individual right. This is far out of line for multiple reasons:

• Folks on both sides of the debate agree that it is ambiguous
• You said that the reason for deleting it from the lead is that it is unsourced. It IS sourced, in the body of the article. The sourcing is customarily not doubled up when it is summarized in the lead. If you want to call for the sourcing to be duplicated in the lead you can do so. But you can't just immediately zap the material from the lead based on that, doubly so when it clearly IS sourced in the article.
• 3RR violation

North8000 (talk) 19:59, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

1. There's no 3RR violation when I haven't edited 3 times in 24 hours. I've edited twice.

2. I contend that the United States Supreme Court and eleven appellate court decisions are a more reliable source on what the law was from 1930-99 than a weaselly claim by a law professor that contradicts a large body of case law, particularly a claim hidden in the body of the article.

3. But if you insist that a single law professor's dubious claim has more weight as to what the law was from 1939-99 than the United States Supreme Court and eleven appellate courts, then I am willing to submit a formal request to the reliable sources noticeboard. Let me know if I should proceed in that route. I will submit my dispute to the noticeboard if you continue to allow the word of one law professor in the article while refusing to allow in the article evidence from a dozen courts.GreekParadise (talk) 20:19, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Right now my contention is the article should be allowed to include a Supreme Court case (Lewis v. United States-1980) that characterized the Second Amendment and Miller. The first sentence you deleted was In United States v. Lewis, 455 U.S. 55 (1980), the Supreme Court described Miller 's holding as follows: 'the Second Amendment guarantees no right to keep and bear a firearm that does not have 'some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia.'" We can dispute over where you think the case belongs (in the header or body of the article) later. But you have deleted the case entirely. So, assuming you agree I have accurately quoted the case verbatim, our first dispute is whether or not this case can appear anywhere in the article. If you agree it belongs, I'll begin by putting this sentence in the body. If you disagree, I will go to the reliable sources noticeboard for a resolution. But I will not make an edit or seek resolution for at least 24 hours to give you time to read the case and respond.GreekParadise (talk) 21:00, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

If Lewis is a 2A-related United States Supreme Court case, let's start by neutrally getting it in. Extracting a quote out of context in a way that tends to change it's meaning is not good coverage and is mis-use of primary sources. I don't know about Lewis, but you were certainly doing that with Miller. Miller ruled on whether the "militia justification" forbade restrictions against certain types of firearms, and the court said "no". You are wanting to put a quote in out of context in a way that makes it look like they were ruling on the individual right route.North8000 (talk) 21:22, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

That's an interesting interpretation of Miller, North. But contrary to all US court rulings from 1939-2000 and completely unsourced. What's your source?

My source is the United States Supreme Court in 1980 (United States v. Lewis, 455 US 55 footnote 8) -- see http://www.constitution.org/ussc/445-055a.htm -- and dozens of appellate court decisions in at least eleven circuit courts of appeal from the 1940's to the 1990's -- see cases I tried to add in a footnote in the article which you deleted. Every one of these cases hold, as the Supreme Court said in Lewis (and I'm quoting verbatim), that Miller held: "the Second Amendment guarantees no right to keep and bear a firearm that does not have 'some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia.'" I want to quote this verbatim. The Supreme Court said it. And it's relevant. And it directly contradicts your unsourced claim. Can you find a single court case from 1939 to 2000 that confirms your description of the ruling in Miller? If so, name it. If not, I believe that this uncontradicted body of 60 years of US case law trumps your personal opinion.

You say you don't know about Lewis. Please read it. You'll see that your unsourced interpretation of Miller is simply not the way American courts at all levels (including the Supreme Court) viewed Miller for at least 60 years. You may not agree with how the Lewis court and other courts characterized Miller, but it's the contemporaneous Supreme Court and other courts opinions that matter when talking about legal history. Not yours or mine. And not subsequent opinions either. If you want to say how Heller recharacterized Miller, go ahead. But that belongs in the Heller decision. Not the Miller decision. Five guys in black robes can change the law. But they have no power to change history.GreekParadise (talk) 23:20, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Once you read the Supreme Court opinion in Lewis and see that I have accurately quoted it, I would ask that you allow it to be included in the article. As I have long argued, an article that gives ample history from the 18th century but fails to include how the Second Amendment was uniformly interpreted by US Courts in the 20th century is simply not an accurate historical record.GreekParadise (talk) 23:20, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

So far you have given one broken link the Lewis, and another to a source that doesn't even say it was a Scotus case, and doesn't support what you were trying to put in.

Context matters. Court of Appeals decisions saying that the Second Amendment protected only a collective right doesn't mean those decisions were correct. For almost 30 years, courts and police departments interpreted New York v. Belton (1981), as permitting police to search an arrestee's vehicle automatically. Despite this interpretation, the Supreme Court ruled in Arizona v. Gant (2009), that this interpretation of Belton was wrong and that Belton was a much narrower decision. Heller did the same thing regarding Miller. To me, it seems you want to frame Heller as wrongfully repudiating the correct interpretation of Miller. That wouldn't be proper, any more than it would proper to put in the article that "the Courts of Appeals misinterpreted Miller as ...". I'm open to putting the Court of Appeals decisions you cite in a footnote together with material referring to those decisions. Under no circumstances should the article refer to those decisions as being correct or Heller being incorrect, or vice-versa. SMP0328. (talk) 02:43, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

We are finally getting somewhere.  :-) I strongly AGREE with you that "correct" is a subjective term that none of us should ever make in a wikipedia article. "Correct" in the law changes over time. Segregation was "correct" after Plessy (1896) and incorrect after Brown (1954). All we can say objectively is what the law was at various dates in time, including the present. I do not and have never contended that the law in 1933 or 1980 was the same or should be the same as the law today. I do, however contend that in an article purporting to be about the history the Second Amendment, I have a right to say what the law was in 1933 and 1980. I would be happy to cite the Court of Appeals opinions in a footnote and summarize them in the text. Indeed I have tried to do that at least a dozen times, but it always summarily reverted. Is this a compromise everyone can accept? I summarize the Court of Appeal articles and Lewis and cite them in a footnote?GreekParadise (talk) 08:32, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

There was no 2a challenge in Lewis. The case was about the constitutionally of a felony conviction. The obscure point is in a footnote referring to another case referring to Miller. IMO a far reach best summarized by Scalia:

Miller was briefly mentioned in our decision in Lewis v. United States, 445 U. S. 55 (1980), an appeal from a conviction for being a felon in possession of a firearm. The challenge was based on the contention that the prior felony conviction had been unconstitutional. No Second Amendment claim was raised or briefed by any party. In the course of rejecting the asserted challenge, the Court commented gratuitously, in a footnote, that “[t]hese legislative restrictions on the use of firearms are neither based upon constitutionally suspect criteria, nor do they trench upon any constitutionally protected liberties. See United States v. Miller … (the Second Amendment guarantees no right to keep and bear a firearm that does not have ‘some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia’).” Id., at 65–66, n. 8. The footnote then cites several Court of Appeals cases to the same effect. It is inconceivable that we would rest our interpretation of the basic meaning of any guarantee of the Bill of Rights upon such a footnoted dictum in a case where the point was not at issue and was not argued.

I understand Scalia disagrees with the SCOTUS in Lewis. Indeed, it is precisely Scalia's disagreement with the SCOTUS footnote re Miller in Lewis that required him to write an opinion challenging it. But the fact that Scalia does not like the SCOTUS opinion in Lewis does not mean that Lewis never existed. We should relate in a neutral verbatim quote what the Lewis court said in 1980 and then also relate what Heller said against Lewis 2008.GreekParadise (talk) 08:32, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Regarding Miller – Scalia summarizes:

Miller did not hold that and cannot possibly be read to have held that [collective only view]. The judgment in the case upheld against a Second Amendment challenge two men’s federal convictions for transporting an unregistered short-barreled shotgun in interstate commerce, in violation of the National Firearms Act, 48 Stat. 1236. It is entirely clear that the Court’s basis for saying that the Second Amendment did not apply was not that the defendants were “bear[ing] arms” not “for … military purposes” but for “nonmilitary use,” post, at 2. Rather, it was that the type of weapon at issue was not eligible for Second Amendment protection: “In the absence of any evidence tending to show that the possession or use of a [short-barreled shotgun] at this time has some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia, we cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear such an instrument.” 307 U. S., at 178 (emphasis added). “Certainly,” the Court continued, “it is not within judicial notice that this weapon is any part of the ordinary military equipment or that its use could contribute to the common defense.” Ibid. Beyond that, the opinion provided no explanation of the content of the right.This holding is not only consistent with, but positively suggests, that the Second Amendment confers an individual right to keep and bear arms (though only arms that “have some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia”). Had the Court believed that the Second Amendment protects only those serving in the militia, it would have been odd to examine the character of the weapon rather than simply note that the two crooks were not militiamen. Miller stands only for the proposition that the Second Amendment right, whatever its nature, extends only to certain types of weapons

.

Cheers. Grahamboat (talk) 05:28, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

I got it. Scalia disagrees with Lewis. But Lewis happened. Surely you are not contending we should never cite Second Amendment law that is not current law? Because if that's the case, we need to wipe out the vast body of legal history in this article that pre-dates the Heller decision in 2008.GreekParadise (talk) 08:32, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Obviously, you don’t get it. Scalia didn’t disagree with Lewis – he pointed out that Lewis was not a 2A case – there was no argument about 2A or Miller and points out It is inconceivable that we would rest our interpretation of the basic meaning of any guarantee of the Bill of Rights upon such a footnoted dictum in a case where the point was not at issue and was not argued. Where’s the retort to disruptions, misrepresentation and insults attributed to you? Cheers. Grahamboat (talk) 23:44, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Disruptions, misrepresentation and insults

GreekParadise, each time you write it is a barrage of false accusations, misstatements of what people said, misstatements about what the article, mis characterizaiton of the points at hand. And you trying to structure it so that failure to refute each point each time you paste it in (conveniently "forgetting" that it has been refuted multiple times) again and again is a license to put your highly POV's statement in the article. I'm tired of all of the above, and I'm sure other are two. Please STOP! North8000 (talk) 00:20, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

If you're going to personally attack me, you're going to have to name the misstatements you claim I have made. I'm tired of this too. For months, I have been trying to include accurate information in this article. And for months I've been told that undisputed case law will NOT be allowed in the article while certain unsourced highly-biased opinions of various editors will be claimed as fact. I contend that under wikipedia policy, you cannot reject accurate well-sourced information just because it makes an article balanced. It's a crazy article. It spends pages and pages on the 17th and 18th Centuries that pre-dated the Second Amendment itself (and are therefore arguably irrelevant) while refusing to allow the consensus of the courts for at least 60 years in the 20th Century to be mentioned! Yet, I have not attempted once to remove the 17th Century information. I have merely tried to include the 20th Century information and been rebuffed on the surprising claim that I'm not allowed to cite the Supreme Court of the United States and eleven appellate courts and the Library of Congress and the New York Times. Editors here claim the verbatim language of the United States Supreme Court can't be cited because it's POV, but a single NRA "hired-gun" may be cited as accurate without naming the source or qualifying the bias! If you continue this silliness, we will have to end up in formal mediation.GreekParadise (talk) 04:50, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Let's try once again at compromise. North, I have two very simple questions that I believe you can answer yes or no:

1) Have you read footnote 8 of the Supreme Court in Miller? (455 US 55)

2) Do you agree that I quoted accurately verbatim from the case?

Please, in good faith, answer these questions. If the answers are both yes, please explain why you refuse to include the quotation from Lewis about Miller. If you've been unable to find a working link to the case, I would be willing to post the entire case on the talk page. Should be unnecessary, though, because the link I provided works for most of you. But if someone asks me to post the entire case, I will. If you have not read the case, I would ask you to cease commenting on the case or removing it from the article until you've read it.

Unless Lewis is allowed to be quoted verbatim, I will do a RfC on whether or not a Supreme Court case on the Second Amendment may be cited in a very long article on the Second Amendment that mentions virtually every other Supreme Court case on the issue.GreekParadise (talk) 04:50, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Regarding Lewis see Miller on individual right above.

Regarding Disruptions, misrepresentation and insults - here is a list of the comments that you have made in the last week:

• "IN SUM, PLEASE IGNORE THIS ARTICLE. It is inaccurate and the editors here refuse to allow it to be accurate"

• "The article is bullshit. Do not read it".

• "I tried mediation but it was rejected by those pushing the NRA-POV here"

• "North's opinion has no weight in wikipedia"

• "and the others are lying?"

• "Unscrupulous editors"

• "discipline these charlatans"

• "You are exactly what is wrong with wikipedia"

• "Until you know what the hell you are talking about, you have no right to comment here"

PLEASE Stop. Grahamboat (talk) 05:50, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

There is also discussion relevant to this at my talk page. North8000 (talk) 10:44, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Limited right

Currently the article cites Heller for the proposition: "the right is not unlimited. It is not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose". No one has disputed that this is current law. Therefore, I changed the first sentence in the header to note the right is limited. After all, the synthesis in the first line should reflect the truth as cited in the article. Miguel Escopeta claims that this limitation from the Heller opinion is "original research" and he removed it. If you agree with me that a holding of the Supreme Court is not original research -- please undo Miguel's unsourced reversion.

If no one discusses or undoes this change in 24 hours, I will begin a formal request for comment solely on the topic of whether a formal decision of the Supreme Court trumps an editor's unsourced private opinion.GreekParadise (talk) 23:35, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Your use of "limited" is redundant, because the quote from Heller in the Introduction says the right is "not unlimited". SMP0328. (talk) 00:06, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

The point is the Second Amendment does not protect "the" right to bear arms. What source says that? Such a weasel word begs the question: what "right to keep and bear arms"? Surely not the right described by Aristotle and Cicero in the wikipedia article that it links to. Heller says the right is qualified, i.e. a limited right for some people to keep and bear certain arms as defined by the Supreme Court. Even if the first sentence is a synthesis, it has to be accurate. Miguel's claim that Heller is "original research" is clearly wrong. Please show some good faith by allowing a word you concede is accurate into the article (that was accepted in this sentence last March). If the first sentence is not a synthesis but is redundant then let's remove the whole thing and say: "The Second Amendment (Amendment II) to the United States Constitution was adopted on December 15, 1791, along with the rest of the Bill of Rights." Then we can remove a heckuva lot more redundant words than "limited." And the sentence would remain indisputably accurate. If you feel you cannot compromise by allowing an accurate first sentence, I will add a disputed tag to the first sentence and begin my first RfC on this first sentence.GreekParadise (talk) 04:11, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

In sum, I'm willing to accept in the first sentence:

a limited right to bear arms

or

a qualified right for some people to keep and bear arms

or

no mention of bearing arms at all

or

a restatement of the Second Amendment (i.e. "a well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not infringed"

I'm not willing to accept that the Second Amendment protects "the" (undefined) right to bear arms with a link to what Aristotle and Cicero had to say about it. That is inaccurate and unsourced original research. No court has ever found that to be true. Aristotle did not determine the scope of the Second Amendment.GreekParadise (talk) 04:11, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

After much hard work and compromise there was a consensus reached on this back in March (see Archive 35) . You chose not to participate at that time. It is not fair that you ask us to rehash this issue. Cheers. Grahamboat (talk) 06:08, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Wrong, we had a consensus in February and it was changed from a truthful statement to a statement that implies the right is unlimited. I disagree with the change. Are you denying the right is limited?GreekParadise (talk) 07:22, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes, its also a given that no right is unlimited and unconditional. We can say "right to vote". We don't have to say "a limited right for some people to vote" because its only people who are registered, not convicted felons, at least 18 years old, US citizens etc. etc. North8000 (talk) 10:54, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Every right has preconditions attached to them. I have the right to free speech, save for seditious speech, treasonous speech or speech designed to spur imminent lawless action. More simply, I can speak my mind until I make speech designed to overthrow the government, make actual plans to overthrow the government or something insane, such as drop the "N-bomb" at an NAACP convention. I have the right to keep and bear arms, however, I do not have the right to carry a firearm onto federal property, including the White House. I do not have the right to open carry in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania on the streets of a city of the first class, of which there is only one in the Commonwealth, Philadelphia. I can open carry everywhere else in the Commonwealth. Though, I'd make the acquaintance of every law enforcement officer I'd pass through doing so. I have the right to worship as I choose, however, I may not make a human sacrifice. Once registered to vote, as I am not a convicted felon, am over the age of 18 and was born in this nation, I have the right to vote, be it for "Buggs Bunny" or even myself. Indeed, in my area, there was a "conspiracy" to elect a state representative that was a republican, but even the democrats worked to elect one republican young man who was controversial in that he was also serving in the National Guard, something that the democratic party of the county objected to and was told to sod off by the populace. As he was deployed, he was unable to be duly entered in time for the ballot. He was hand written in by the majority of the voters of both parties and now remains seated in the state assembly. Every right has its limitations. Some of the examples I listed are obviously outlandish, but are also well defined in case law.Wzrd1 (talk) 12:22, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

rights are unlimited and are intelligently outside the reach of government. People confuse rights with things that appear similar at first blush but which are not covered under the right.....spuriously yelling fire in a crowded theater or threatening someone with physical harm has never fallen under the protection of free speech. It's not a limit on the right.....nobody has a right to assault another and it's inane that some call such assaults as alimit on free speech! A careful scrutiny of the arguments by those who claim that rights are limited reveals faulty logic. I am free to yell fire at the top of my lungs while alone in the middle of my 3,000 acre ranch in Montana but that is not freedom of speech because nobody is there to listen. I most certainly don't have a right to such a declaration in a crowded theater if a fire threat is not present and that limit is not a denial of free speech nor is it a limit on free speech it is an assertion of the rights of others to not be assaulted, but I most certainly have a right to yell fire if a fire is present and I also have a right to say nothing! scary as that may sound....i am bound by no duty to act unless i am duly deputized. Freedom of speech is all about freedom to voice political opinions or offer any opinion in public settings without fear of repercussion from the government or threats from others. Similarly if I'm hiking in a remote area in alaska, I have a right to self defense and in that instance I would only feel safe with a SW500 or similar revolver And a competent high powered rifle given the very dangerous fauna....to deny me or limit that ability to bear arms is a grave transgression on my rights and indeed endangers me. To limit me in bullet caliber or capacity or firearm in that setting is a threat to me and unconstitutional! Similarly if I'm traveling cross country on the interstate, I feel a need to be armed, probably with something more discrete than a SW500 perhaps a PPK or something bigger if im going through wild territory but i dont have a right to scare every gas station teller on I10 with a rocket launcher but i most certainly have a right to be armed, no telling if I might break down at night and or who might stop....to deny me that is to endanger me and society has no power to deny me that right nor to endanger me. Bill Cosby's son was shot by lawless people when his car broke down on the 405 interstate in los angeles at 1am.....one of the busiest roads in the US in a state with very tight gun laws! I can understand that a bar owner might not want drunks with guns in his bar, and he has a right as a private property owner to keep people out but, out in public, i have a right to bear arms as needed to defend myself. Wherever i can legally exist, i have a right to bear arms. at the NRA gathering i carry my locked and cocked 1911 in a very nice holster proudly open carrying but im not going to wear that gettup to the local mall in the summer, id likely scare to death the soccer moms and all the 13 year old teeny boppers - disturbing the peace comes to mind. i dont have a right to scare people but discretely carrying a very small .380 in a pocket is very reasonable particularly if im a store manager for a jewelry store at that mall and i have to clse my shop late at night, deal with money, and hav to walk a huge parking lot late at night in a deteriorating part of town.. When politically active well meaning but, ignorant people deny us our rights they both oppress us and endanger us. If you want to go unarmed, please by all means, but don't come on here and try to massage the meaning of the text, the amendment text is very clear. Sorry for the long post bu it's important to clarify that many of the so called limits on our rights are not limits at all bu rather fallacies in logic. Justanonymous (talk) 20:42, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Agree 100% and your post is worthy of posting on my wall. But here we're dealing on a more mundane level. An amendment is basically a prohibition against the government restricting a certain freedom. And the definition of that freedomn is not infinite North8000 (talk) 22:01, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

You confuse the first amendment right of freedom of expression as a limitless right, where it is quite plainly limited by the examples you gave. You have no right to yell fire in a crowded theater when no such danger exists, that is risking the lives of others in the ensuing panic. You have no right to make speech designed to spur imminent lawless action, such as shouting racial epithets at an NAACP convention. You have no right to make speech to overthrow your government, that is sedition. You have no right to make speech in planning the overthrow your government in an imminent way, such as planning an attack, that is treason. As for Alaska, I'd stick with my 45-70 rifle, it's more than sufficient for dangerous game. I did consider getting a BFR 45-70, but I'm far too attached to my hand and prefer it where it is currently located. In the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, one may not drink in a bar while carrying a firearm, concealed or open carry (open carry is prohibited in Cities of the First Class, of which Pennsylvania has only one, Philadelphia). You are prohibited in every state under federal law from possessing a firearm on a K-12 school property. Many states prohibit the possession of a firearm inside of a church or similar religious structure. That said, the restrictions on what kind of firearm one may lawfully own under federal law are few, one can purchase that rocket launcher under the NFA. That said, some states do prohibit NFA firearms, many do not. Rights do have limitations to ensure the peace and safety of the public, whether they are enumerated rights or common law rights.Wzrd1 (talk) 00:25, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

the examples you cite are not examples of free speech. It's not free speech to spuriously yell fire in a crowded theater, never has been and its not a limit on the right either. They are actually infringements on the rights of others and in some cases crime. The right is limited but it is about political speech not driving cars, it is bound by the common language.. -Justanonymous (talk) 01:30, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Lets all remember this is not a forum J8079s (talk) 05:09, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

J8079, quite true, but it is a contentious subject and requires elaboration on. Under Justanonymous notions, the civil war was predicted upon free speech and ignores how it was first seditious speech, then later, treasonous speech. The speaker ignores the reality of both case law and overall reality in the attempt to accomplish a single right that is not encumbered, while also admitting to the fact that said right is encumbered. Sorry, but one cannot both HAVE the cake and EAT it. They are mutually exclusive practices.Wzrd1 (talk) 05:33, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

The term "right" is ambiguous. For example, sometimes it means an entitlement which compels other people to do stuff so that I can have it (e.g. a "right" to an education or medical care). In the case of this amendment (as with most of the constitution) we are talking about restrictions of governmental action. And the defined protected or partially protected behavior or condition is called a right. It is taken as a give no "right" is unlimited and unconditional. If you add unusual qualifiers to it (e.g. say "The right of certain people under certain conditions to vote" instead of "right to vote") you are particularly denigrating the statement of that right, which is what a POV warrior is trying to do here. North8000 (talk) 14:17, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

agreed, the bill of rights was put there as a no go area from government interference and the list of rights is not comprehensive, government overreach was a great concern to the founders....if the government is curtailing it, it's not a right or the government is engaged in unconstitutional actions. It's like saying I have a right to privacy except when the sheriff decides to drop by or that you have a right to free speech without retribution except when the IRS decides otherwise or that you have a right to remain silent except when the fbi questions you. As it stands, i have a right to keep and bear arms except when in illinois, When traveling between some states, or in my home in some states (notably chicago, dc, until very recently)? Ludicrous. That IS government overreach. I'm not of the mind that rights are ambigous....provided my actions are not depriving another of a right, then I am free to do that action (silly tenous contortions of logic do not apply like suggesting that choices make me unhealthy.). I can wear a cross in public as a display of my faith and I can drink a 64oz big gulp. Limits on rights ARE infringement and unconstitutional. Government's primary reason for existence is to protect rights not to curtail them! Justanonymous (talk) 21:31, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

It sounds like we all agree the right has been limited by the Supreme Court. Therefore we all agree that the first sentence which implies the right is unlimited is false at least in its implication. In March, we discussed using the word "involves" the right to bear arms since it is a neutral term. I would support "involves" if we cannot agree on "limited." Or I would support paralleling what we did with other Bills of Rights -- simply paraphrasing the entire Amendment.GreekParadise (talk) 08:47, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

no we don't agree. The other amendments' descriptions in Wikipedia are similarly tightly worded. All of this has been hashed ad nauseum with GreekParadise and the discussions are in the archives. The correct wording is prohibits government or protects but not the verbal contortions GreekParadise is advocating.Justanonymous (talk) 13:04, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

SCOTUS is the supreme authority on what the constitution means. They have said explicitly "The Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess a firearm unconnected with service in a militia, and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home" Gaijin42 (talk)

GreekParadise regarding your claim “Wrong, we had a consensus in February and it was changed from a truthful statement to a statement that implies the right is unlimited” [GreekParadise (talk) 07:22, 8 July 2013 (UTC)] you must be dreaming, as there was never a consensus on the use of “involves” in February. Perhaps, that is our current problem – you don’t know what a consensus is. Cheers. Grahamboat (talk) 18:39, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Is the Supreme Court description of the Miller case in a published opinion in 1980 (Lewis) a reliable source for how the Supreme Court viewed Miller in 1980?

For six months, editors have, for whatever reason, struck all reliable relevant neutral sources quoted verbatim that I have provided. Many have speculated on why only one extremely biased POV is allowed to be presented here. Others have speculated that citing reliable relevant sources verbatim is an unfair tactic on my part. But I believe it's best for both sides to ignore intentions and start with logic. Because we've disagreed for six months on dozens of issues, I believe we should start out by stating our disagreements very simply.

Let's start with a tautology, the simplest question in all of logic. Does A=A? Here's the question I pose:

Is the Supreme Court description of the Miller case in 1980 a reliable source for the state of the law re the Supreme Court's legal interpretation of Miller in 1980?

I contend it is.

Most of the editors on this board appear to contend it is not. Grahamboat, for example, claims the Supreme Court citation of Miller was "probably inserted by a law clerk" and therefore unquotable. I contend a published opinion of the United States Supreme Court in 1980 is a better source for the view of the Supreme Court in 1980 than Grahamboat's completely unsourced rank speculation that the US Supreme Court did not mean what they wrote.

Please state whether you agree with Grahamboat or me. If you agree that a 1980 SCOTUS opinion is a good reliable source for the opinion of the SCOTUS in 1980, then I will cite the case. If you disagree, I will forward this issue to the reliable source noticeboard and/or a request for comment.GreekParadise (talk) 08:01, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Your assertion that "reasonable relationship to a militia" means "collective-only right" is original research. An individual right may (by some) be considered to have a reasonable relationship, as (legally, and historically) the militia is everyone, and would need to be armed to be useful. Heller specifically said that it did not overturn Miller. Is not in conflict with Miller. Further says there is an individual right. Therefore, with SCOTUS being the supreme authority for the constitution, and their own opinions, Miller does not rule for a collective-only right, otherwise Heller would be overturning Miller. A footnote quoting Miller does not give any insight into what the quote from Miller means( and further, a footnote carries no legal weight whatsoever). Lewis says nothing that wasn't word for word in Miller. Repating an ambiguous statement does not clear up ambiguity. "None of the Court’s precedents forecloses the Court’s interpretation. Neither United States v. Cruikshank, 92 U. S. 542 , nor Presser v. Illinois, 116 U. S. 252 , refutes the individual-rights interpretation. United States v. Miller, 307 U. S. 174 , does not limit the right to keep and bear arms to militia purposes, but rather limits the type of weapon to which the right applies to those used by the militia, i.e., those in common use for lawful purposes. Pp. 47–54." Gaijin42 (talk) 14:41, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Plus this thread is a tangent with false implied premises. Lewis was not a 2A case and did not rule on 2A/individual right. Even sources which extensively examined Scotus during this period (e.g. extensive Congressional Research Service source) do not even mention Lewis! This is GP's creative crusade, not something from sources. This is getting disruptive. North8000 (talk) 16:27, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Lewis was not a 2A case it was a 5A case. Neither Miller nor 2A were argued in Lewis. The cases that were discussed were: Marshall v. United States, 414 U.S. 417, 422 (1974), quoting from McGinnis v. Royster, 410 U.S. 263, 270 (1973), and Baxstrom v. Herold, 383 U.S. 107, 111 (1966). See Vance v. Bradley, 440 U.S. 93, 97 (1979).[8] In none of those cases was Miller or 2A discussed. Trying to hammer in an excerpt from a footnote implying the Lewis court concurred with Miller is ludicrous – not worthy of consideration and definitely too POV for Wikipedia. BTW I noticed you have not responded to your own request to name any disruptions, misrepresentation and insults that you made. Cheers. Grahamboat (talk) 16:41, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

also, your interpretation of Miller is refuted by SCOTUS again in Printz "The Court did not, however, attempt to define, or otherwise construe, the substantive right protected by the Second Amendment." Gaijin42 (talk) 16:47, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

agree with my esteemed editors Gaijin42, Grahamboat, North8000 and I applaud their civility in patiently refuting months/years of attempted agenda driven editing. GreekParadise, please no more tautologies or 10,000byte entries. The group has been very patient and they actually study all sides of this vs just the one side you want to drive. -Justanonymous (talk) 01:53, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Consensus?

I see that GreekParadise removed the POV tag from the article. Does this mean we have a consensus that the article is not biased? This wouldn't mean that any of us think the article is perfect. It would be a big step for the dispute about neutrality to be resolved. SMP0328. (talk) 00:22, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

I did not remove the POV tag at the top of the article. It was forcibly removed against my will. On several occasions. I tried in good faith to edit a small portion at the bottom and removed the POV tag while I made one last attempt to act in good faith. But as usual, my own reliable sources were unceremoniously reverted without any reason given (because editors here continue to sadly believe their personal opinion trumps the findings of the Supreme Court and other reliable sources).

This article is hopelessly biased. I will replace the tag and ask that it not be removed again absent formal mediation, which I support. You're simply not supposed to remove the POV tag without addressing in good faith the issues of extreme bias I have repeatedly brought up for more than six months on the talk pages.GreekParadise (talk) 01:34, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

I believe we had a consensus since the end of March 2013. This latest rehash presented nothing new. Cheers.Grahamboat (talk) 03:41, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Bullshit and you know it. It's not a consensus when you stifle debate and forcibly prevent factual material from being presented.GreekParadise (talk) 01:34, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

• Propose then this talk page be archived, we turn the page on this latest and greatest 2nd amendment kerfuffle, and set up with a new talk page. 10stone5 (talk) 20:31, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

I've changed auto-archiving to 14 days (from 45). That gives enough time to confirm that we have consensus and it prevents the need to unarchive if it turns out we don't have consensus. SMP0328. (talk) 20:56, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes. I won't repeat the above. North8000 (talk) 00:49, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

No consensus. Just railroading. As usual. I'll try to remember every 14 days to repeat my warning to all who read this article that it is hopelessly biased. If only you folks had been willing to address my arguments or go to mediation or just allow me to cite undisputable sources, this wouldn't happen. Instead the article is a hopeless failure and every reader should know it is completely unreliable.GreekParadise (talk) 01:34, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

WARNING TO ALL WHO READ THIS ARTICLE: IT IS PROPAGANDA. Editors here refuse to allow undisputed sources to be presented when they interfere with their personal and false narrative of how they wish history had been. They are trying to claim that the new post-2008 interpretation of the Second Amendment has always been the law in America. That claim is irrefutably false.

THERE HAS NEVER BEEN A CONSENSUS ON THIS ARTICLE FOR MORE THAN FIVE YEARS. Check out the talk pages. Indeed, THIS ARTICLE IS THE SINGLE MOST BIASED ARTICLE I HAVE EVER READ IN WIKIPEDIA. The editors have acted in extreme bad faith. In wikipedia, you are supposed to assume good faith until proven otherwise. But after six months of these editors refusing to allow to be cited any eminently reliable sources such as the Supreme Court itself(!), dozens of lower court opinions, the text of the Second Amendment(!) or reportage of the New York Times that does not fit in with their propaganda, I have no choice but to be absolutely clear they are acting in bad faith.

If you read the talk pages, you will see that for five years before my attempts for six months since January, these particular editors have worked very hard trying to rewrite history. Don't let them. DON'T READ THIS ARTICLE. I have cited dozens of Supreme Court case law and lower court cases objectively showing that prior to 2008, the Second Amendment was strictly construed to protect only people serving in a militia. But these editors don't want you to know that is undisputed fact. They reduce almost a century of legal history into a part of a sentence hidden at the end of a long article. In their view, the entire 20th Century legal history of the Second Amendment deserves half a sentence (which I fought strenuously to include) while the article devotes dozens of paragraphs pages to an irrelevant discussion of history prior to the Second Amendment that has little or nothing to with it but serves to support their narrative of what they wish the Second Amendment said, rather than it what it actually says.

Editors have repeatedly removed unrefutable citations dozens of times when it did not fit their propaganda. Even the noticeboard has condemned their actions -- see https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_151 -- in refusing to allow even a United States Supreme Court decision to be reported if it disagreed with their personal agendas.

Want to know the legal history of the Second Amendment? DON'T READ THE PROPAGANDA PORTRAYED HERE. Here's the truth about the Second Amendment: http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/comment/2012/12/jeffrey-toobin-second-amendment.html. This is one of the articles they rejected. They only allow commentators who oppose gun regulations to be cited in this article, not legal historians who point out the obvious: that the Supreme Court, every US President and even a conservative Chief Justice of the Supreme Court (Warren Burger) once thought the ideas presented in this article with a straight face as if it were always the law for hundreds of years emphatically rejected this article's conclusion. In fact Burger specifically mocked the propaganda theories presented here as a "fraud." But you won't find his quote in this article. I have tried more than 100 times to cite facts like this and dozens of cases and the Library of Congress and the New York Times. The fact that I have given up any hope of any editor acting to achieve consensus in good faith does not mean anything in this article is true or fair or accurate or a consensus.

According to these editors, the entire body of law 200 years before 2008 must be censored from this article, except as stated falsely from the mouths of NRA-hired commentators. But the truth censored from this article by these editors-with-an-agenda is undisputable: Prior to 2000, Federal Law held that the Second Amendment means exactly what its language says: that because a well-regulated militia is necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms in service to that well-regulated militia shall not be infringed. It did not then -- and does not now -- guarantee an unlimited right for any person (particularly not the insane and the violent felon) to bear arms.

This legal view -- which the editors refuse to allow to be described to you in the current article -- was the solid view of the Supreme Court, the lower courts, American Presidents, American Congresses, and the vast majority of legal scholars from 1791 to 2008. It is the current view of four of the nine justices who currently sit on the Supreme Court. If one of the majority five resigns, it will again be current law. But sadly you would not know this highly pertinent fact from reading the extremely biased propaganda in this article.

This article is proof -- if ever you need any -- that wikipedia is a failure when it comes to hotly contested issues. I had thought you could simply present "both sides of a controversy" with each side sharing its sources. I would share my Supreme Court cases and Library of Congress cases and they would share the opinion of some NRA-bought-and-paid-for mouthpiece at some obscure university and we'd be done. But I was not aware they could simply delete my reliable sources on the grounds that they do not personally "agree with" the Supreme Court or the New York Times or the Library of Congress.

In sum, a determined group of editors can keep out a fact that is undisputedly true just to serve their own biased agenda and there is nothing that wikipedia editors can do about it. Indeed, these same editors could write the earth was flat and no one could stop them.

I strenuously object to this nonsense and propose formal mediation. But there's no point in going around in circles for months. All of these editors believe that reliable sources should be deleted if it doesn't fit their personal agendas. And I say ALL reliable relevant sources should be included. We will sadly never agree. But it's not for my lack of trying.GreekParadise (talk) 01:34, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Neutrality Dispute

For reasons I state above and elsewhere on this talk page, I suggest that any reader that wants to be well-informed about the legal history of the Second Amendment avoid the nonsense provided here. The sources here are misused. Editors cite their personal opinion and claim it is sourced when it is not. And reliable sources have been deleted. All to claim that the Second Amendment has never changed when it fact it has. For a good short article on actual history of the Second Amendment, read this: http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/comment/2012/12/jeffrey-toobin-second-amendment.htmlGreekParadise (talk) 01:37, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

We have continuously tried to work with you. Yet you seem to believe that consensus means we unconditionally surrender to your belief that the article should be about how Heller and McDonald were wrongly decided. That won't happen. The fact that the article doesn't perfectly reflect your opinion does not mean the article is biased. Wikipedia functions on consensus. It looked like we had consensus. We found a way for you to add your desired reference to preHeller Court of Appeals decisions. So why do you return to ranting about the article being biased and attacking fellow editors? SMP0328. (talk) 02:04, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

I have NEVER once asked you to say Heller and McDonald were wrongly decided. You can look at pages and pages of what I have said for six months and you will never once find me saying that. I dare you to find that. I want you to search for it. And when you can't find it (because I never said it), I believe you owe me an apology. Apologize to me for this personal attack and we might actually be able to work together. You can fight all the straw men you want. But I'm not that straw men, and unless and until you address my actual arguments, we will get nowhere.

I have only asked (repeatedly) that I be allowed to state the law as it existed from 1939-2008. I do NOT want my opinion mentioned. I want THE LAW mentioned. Your determination to hide the actual law from the reader as it existed in the Twentieth Century is the essence of our dispute.

I will lay out in detail all the many biases I see in this exceptionally biased article.GreekParadise (talk) 03:19, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

I've suggested several different versions, but nothing I suggest has been accepted, including direct quotations from the United States Supreme Court, because editors don't want YOU the reader to know the true legal history of the amendment. Here's one version of many I proposed of how the beginning of the article should read if reliable sources were allowed to be included. (Frankly, as written, it is biased in favor of the individual rights theory because I've seen no reliable evidence any court seriously entertained this theory until the 21st century. But I claim that people have disagreed for two centuries. Someone will need a source to show that anyone argued the individual rights theory two hundred years ago)

The Second Amendment (Amendment II) to the United States Constitution is part of the United States Bill of Rights which protects the right of the people to keep and bear arms from infringement and cites a prefatory reason therefor: “a well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state.” [Citation: Second Amendment] It was adopted on December 15, 1791, along with the rest of the Bill of Rights.

For more than two centuries, Americans have disagreed on the meaning of the Second Amendment, the impact of its prefatory militia clause, whether it is an individual right to bear arms or a collective right to serve in a militia, and the extent to which the United States or State Governments were prohibited from infringing on this right. [citation: CRS article http://assets.opencrs.com/rpts/RL34446_20080411.pdf]

From 1791 to 2007, no federal appeals court struck down a single gun control law on Second Amendment Grounds. [citation article by the Supreme Court Correspondent for the New York Times: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/06/us/06firearms.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0] In the Nineteenth Century, the Supreme Court limited enforcement of the Second Amendment to the Federal Government alone and thus allowed the States to enforce gun regulations. [citation Cruikshank] By the Twentieth Century, the Federal Courts had virtually summarily concluded that the Second Amendment was limited to a collective right to service in a well regulated militia and found the Government could limit any weapons not having a “reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia.” [citation Miller and CRS]

In the Twenty-First Century, a Federal Court first rejected the collective interpretation and held instead that the Second Amendment confers an individual right to keep and bear arms, notwithstanding lack of service in a militia. In 2008, the Supreme Court of the United States officially adopted this view, holding expressly that the Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess and carry firearms.

In District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008), the Court ruled that the Second Amendment protects an individual's right to possess a firearm, unconnected to service in a militia and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home within many longstanding prohibitions and restrictions on firearms possession listed by the Court as being consistent with the Second Amendment. In McDonald v. Chicago, 561 U.S. 3025 (2010), the Court overruled its earlier decisions limiting the Second Amendment's impact to a restriction on the Federal Government and expressly found that the Second Amendment limits state and local governments to the same extent that it limits the federal government.

There are a myriad of problems with the current article. They've been discussed at length for years and no consensus was reached. I'll keep repeating them so that people who read the talk page will have an idea as to why the entire article is faulty. Also these can serve as points for mediation. I recognize after six months of concerted effort that nothing I write will be even read, much less taken seriously, no matter how many sources I cite. So I officially give up but will continue to post this warning so that no one actually takes this article seriously unless and until it's formally mediated.

First Paragraph - false; not what Amendment says and not what it does. Everyone agrees it is a limited right but pro-gun folk refuse to allow this basic fact to be in the lede. Nor will they allow a simple citation of the Amendment. Nor will they allow the neutral word "concerns."

Second Paragraph - irrelevant opinions of editors; no source cited - no proof that Second Amendment was based on Blackstone. A commentator's view should not form the second paragraph of the article. The actual legal history of the Second Amendment excluded from this piece is more important than what some commentator believes about its prehistory

Third paragraph - Should say what Cruikshank actually held. These editors love to quote Supreme Court dicta to suggest a narrative. But the ruling is more important: we need to say what the case did. The Court "upheld a state's restriction on firearm possession." This fact has been removed dozens of times despite it being undisputedly true.

Fourth paragraph on Miller is ABSOLUTE BULLSHIT and these editors know it. That was not the holding of the case. Plus there was no debate afterwards. It was settled law for almost 70 years and cited dozens of times by lower courts and the Supreme Court to state emphatically that it meant you had to serve in a milita to get the protections of the Amendment. This may be Scalia's view of Miller , but it is not what the Miller court said or how it was interpreted from 1939-2008. That was not the holding nor the language of Miller. This is the most intellectually dishonest paragraph in the entire article.

Fifth Paragraph - Should mention the Lewis decision proving that the Supreme Court REJECTED the personal opinion of the editors in the Fourth Paragraph above

Sixth Paragraph - Fails to mention that Heller overturned this prior body of law (which is why it was a landmark case) by being first case to establish individual right. You can say that the case denied it was overturning Miller, but you cannot deny it changed the law.

Seventh Paragraph - should point out it was new right overturning Cruikshank

LONG DISCUSSION PRE-RATIFICATION

This at best should be a separate section. Lots of pro-gun scholars views but the scholars who believe in strict construction of the Second Amendment's militia clause are not represented at all. This is an interpretation of history and not fact. It's way too long, particularly when you give the post-Miller period less than one sentence. How the Courts interpreted the Second Amendment is far more reputable than how a few scholars believe it was constructed. Other scholars disagree.

Facts should be here rather than opinion. For example, in the Whiskey Rebellion, President George Washington made clear that he did NOT believe that people had the right to keep and bear arms against the Federal Government. This is a fact, not supposition. It is not in the article, but all these NRA-scholars are. Strong proof of bias.

SO-CALLED "SCHOLARLY COMMENTARY"

This of course is nothing of the sort. The article only has NRA-scholars. None that advocate reasonable gun regulation. It repeatedly cites Heller as if it were scholarly commentary! But it doesn't cite the many scholars who opposed Heller and supported Miller. Extreme proof of bias in article.

SUPREME COURT CASES

Now we're getting somewhere. Deep in the article you finally begin to start mentioning the actual legal interpretation. But again hopeless bias. You should say what the cases said and how they were viewed and interpreted CONTEMPORANEOUSLY. Not what five justices in 2008 claim they meant (disregarding the 100's of jurists that disagreed). The Miller case is particularly absent of its very important language. Here's what it should say

Miller was a unanimous Supreme Court case that held the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution "must be interpreted and applied" with its "obvious purpose" in view: "to assure the continuation and render possible the effectiveness" of the Militia. The Court found therefor that the Second Amendment does not "guarantee[] the right to keep and bear" a firearm that has no "reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia."

This should be in the article. Failure to include it is evidence of the bias replete in this article.

On Heller, the article should point out that the dissent argued that the 70-year-body of law since Miller should remain undisturbed. That would show you're not hiding this very real view of the law -- established law in the 20th Century (that will likely become the law again if one of the five-justice majority is replaced)

BEFORE HELLER -- Interesting how 200 years of law and dozens of cases get a single small disparaging paragraph by a commentator rather than the actual holding of the US Courts for 70 years. (This is all I get after six months of fighting for detailed mention of the law pre-Heller?)

Then there's a second paragraph on Emerson, the one and only case pre-Heller that disagreed with Miller. Get it? One paragraph on the hundreds of cases that found one way (including the Supreme Court in Lewis but it's not mentioned here at all!). And one paragraph on the one lone case 60 years later that found the other way. That's like, in an article on the Supreme Court giving a single paragraph on hundreds of justices and a second paragraph on Antonin Scalia. Seems biased to me. There should at least be mention of how Emerson disagreed with 60 years of dozens of cases, including the Supreme Court in Miller and Lewis.

AFTER HELLER --

Lots of paragraphs post-2008. Of course. As if the legal history of the Second Amendment began five years ago. Silly obvious bias.

IN CONCLUSION -- This article devotes at least fifty paragraphs to mostly irrelevant information predating the Second Amendment, at least fifty paragraphs to pro-gun commentators, and at least fifty paragraphs to the law post-2008. But the law from 1791 to 2008 gets short shrift. And the entire law in the Twentiety Century for seventy years from 1939-2008 gets barely a paragraph and only a disparaging one at that. Hardly NPOV.

For all these reasons -- and sadly many others -- this article is a waste of your time if you're trying to get a fair and balanced view of the legal history of the Second Amendment that follows wikipedia rules.

If, however, you want the "NRA view of the Second Amendment," feel free to read this article. Indeed, I'd have no problem if this article were simply titled such. I believe a new article on the Second Amendment legal history should be written that allows all reliable sources to be cited, including prior case law that disagrees with the current opinion of five justices of the Supreme Court. It would allow scholars from both camps to be represented: the pro-gun regulation camp (strict constructionist view that every word of the Second Amendment, including the militia clause, has meaning) and the anti-gun regulation camp (the individual rights interpretation that holds the Second Amendment's militia clause should be ignored as irrelevant surplus language). The new article could then cite to this old one when asked for "History of the Second Amendment as Described by Those Who Oppose Any Gun Regulation" and perhaps there would also be, to be fair a "History of the Second Amendment as Described by Those Who Support Some Gun Regulation" that would point out, for example, all the citations to the militia in the ratification debates rather than the current (typically unsourced!) view that it was a "personal right".

This will sadly never happen. For that to happen, it would require a dedicated group of editors committed to upholding wikipedia's principles of neutrality, respect for reliable sources, and avoidance of original research and personal opinion. Such editors are not yet working on this article. But one day, I hope they will.

I formally request mediation.GreekParadise (talk) 03:19, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

The Congressional Research Service says, p. 1, "On the other end of the spectrum is the "collective right model" which interprets the Second Amendment as protecting the authority of the states to maintain a formal organized militia."[2] That is not the same as saying it is a "right to service in a well regulated militia ", which would be an individual right. TFD (talk) 05:31, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

TFD It is perhaps enlightening to look at the dissent of Heller, where the dissenters did not argue a true collective right, but all went with the "limited individual rights" model. (In two separate dissents, in which all 4 dissenting judges signed) "The question presented by this case is not whether the Second Amendment protects a “collective right” or an “individual right.” Surely it protects a right that can be enforced by individuals. But a conclusion that the Second Amendment protects an individual right does not tell us anything about the scope of that right." and "“I take as a starting point the following four propositions, based on our precedent and today’s opinions, to which I believe the entire Court subscribes: (1) The Amendment protects an ‘individual’ right—i.e., one that is separately possessed, and may be separately enforced, by each person on whom it is conferred.". In essence, the court unanimously ruled that it is an individual right, but differed on the scope of that right. Gaijin42 (talk) 15:38, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, I think GreekParadise is not clear on this. As the article says, "The first, known as the "states' rights" or "collective right" model, holds that the Second Amendment does not apply to individuals; rather, it recognizes the right of each state to arm its militia." IOW it reads the amendment as saying, "The right of each state to maintain an armed militia shall not be infringed." TFD (talk) 19:27, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

I think we should clarify what (right or wrong) the the short hand meanings we have been using here. "Collective right" has been meaning "militia-related right" and "individual right" has been meaning "right unrelated to militia". And sometimes "collective right" has meant "collective right only". North8000 (talk) 19:37, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

A militia-related individual right is different from a collective right, so calling it one is confusing. TFD (talk) 21:28, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

I agree. The right to serve in a militia, or having the right significantly limited by relation to militia service is the "limited individual model" (dissent in Heller) vs the full individual "standard model" (endorsed by the majority in heller). The true collective right is the right of states to have a militia but no right enforceable by an individual. The true collective model was last given (afaik) in the oral arguments in Emerson, where the govt argued that the govt could even dismiss the state militia, as the collective right to a militia was fulfilled by the national guard. Gaijin42 (talk) 00:58, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Request for Comment - Include Prior Law?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Currently the article spends several pages stating the law as it existed prior to the Second Amendment being ratified and several more pages on legal commentary, but it only gives one short disparaging paragraph hidden at the end of the article to the law as it existed between the Miller decision of 1939 and the Heller decision of 2008. Citations to Supreme Court and appellate court decisions from 1939-2008 been deleted as well as information from articles such as this one stating how it was the prevailing view of the time: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/06/us/06firearms.html. The article pretends that there was never disagreement about the Second Amendment's militia clause rather than clearly stating the two schools.

1) Should we (A) state the law as it existed from 1939-2008 and cite the post-2008 law as well? Or (B) should we ignore all prior law that conflicts with current law?

2) Should we (A) fairly state the militia v individual rights controversy? Or (B) only state the individual rights theory on the grounds that the individual rights theory has been the law since 2008 and therefore the older theory should be excluded from the article?GreekParadise (talk) 04:39, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

The wording is too faulty to be anywhere near viable. it includes huge false assertions as implied premises, clearly-false assertions about the current state in its opening paragraph, argues against non-existent straw men and straw man mis-summaries of the actual points made. And it has no specific requested edit, it seems to be seeking some vague cart-Blanche. North8000 (talk) 11:43, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

• suggest speedy close I agree with the carte blance issue north8000 raises, and think that DR is a better venue for resolution. Since this RFC will force the DR to be automatically closed, I suggest we close this, so that the DR can proceed. Gaijin42 (talk) 14:04, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

• The issues involved are too complex for an RfC. DR would be better, but will not be accepted if the RfC is open. So I suggest GreekParadise close the RfC to allow DR. TFD (talk) 18:02, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Added the disputed template to the top of the article

Hopefully, potential editors will go to the link to this talk page before editing.Wzrd1 (talk) 00:41, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Lead

The Manual of Style clearly states what should and should not be in the Lead of an article. Aside from the concept that this article should be encyclopedic entry that talks "about" the 2nd Amendment (its origin, its history, and such), the rest of the rhetoric associated with it should be kept to a minimum. Yes, the controversies, the court cases, public outcry, the NRA, the Brady Center, and the like should be mentioned, but why any of them deserve more than a sentence or paragraph (linked to their INDIVIDUAL ARTICLES) confounds me.

This article should be just be about the 2nd Amendment. Every issue (gun control, gun rights, school shootings, etc.) has its own article and rightly so because the issues are just too varied, complex, and numerous for one article. Please stop trying to make this article a collection of every subject on the matter. There's a reason that this article is "A delisted good article." --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 18:50, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

To tell the truth, I was quite annoyed to see that the article was delisted WP:GA. I wonder if it would be a good idea to gain consensus on reverting back to the version that was listed as a GA again.Wzrd1 (talk) 18:58, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Your belief that the Introduction violates MOS should be brought here before you make any changes to the Introduction. This is a disputed article, so consensus should be reached regarding any changes that are not minor. You basically are trying to rewrite the Introduction, so your edits are not minor. SMP0328. (talk) 19:02, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

It does violate the MOS, if for no other reason, the listing of selected case law in the lede. That is something that belongs in the body of the article. Still, perhaps changes could be sandboxed and consensus on the lede achieved and implemented then?Wzrd1 (talk) 19:49, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Exactly. There should be a consensus for any substantive changes to the Introduction. SMP0328. (talk) 20:11, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

I have a lot of respect for Scalhotrod and they do good work. But I think that the two Scotus court cases (Heller/McDonald) which made huge rulings on the 2A belong in there. Miler being narrow and not on any of the main questions IMO shouldn't be in there but I think was put/left in there anyway as an olive branch to somebody. So I respectfully disagree with 2/3 of Scalhotrod's deletions. North8000 (talk) 23:47, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

The lede should be to introduce the general subject, not immediately drill down into case law. Case law should be discussed in the various case law entries that are already listed, rather than duplicate them in the main article and clutter the lede with case law that could easily be considered POV. As an example, in the article on DNA, the lede does not mention alteration of DNA, sense and antisense or base pairing. Those have their own sections and are included in those sections. As there is already a section on case law, case law belongs there, lest we give undue weight to a sparse few cases individually and ignore the entire history, culture at the time and since, the fact of firearms ownership and private militias throughout colonial history and well into US history and more in favor of four items of case law. My own opinion on the rest of the article flow would be remove the case law from the lede, leave Heller for its case law section and impact toward the end of the article, as Heller did not influence the English Bill of Rights or English common law, the converse is true far, far, far later. The discussion that goes on in the Influence of the English Bill of Rights of 1689 section errs in including a singular modern SCOTUS decision, as that discussion should be under the decision itself and its impact. In its place should be an abbreviated (and wikilinked as needed history of the English Bill of Rights of 1689, English common law of the time, English self-defense and communal defense practices of the time as well as abuses of the Crown that were considered by those who penned the second amendment. One cannot comprehend things of the past in a vacuum or in a vacuum filled with ancient and modern at the same time. I'd also suggest that the Conflict and compromise in Congress produce the Bill of Rights should not use green as a highlight of two commas, but something more in common with the page theme, it's a bit jarring. Red may suffice, as that is used in dead links or some other form of annotation that isn't jarring and distracting. I'll not go into militia performance throughout colonial history and well into US history other than to remark that the National Guard was created for a reason, the incredibly high death count of federally called up militiamen throughout the existence of militias in the US. Even back during the French and Indian war the militia's quality and competency was lousy, with militias being rescued by English regulars being the norm. I learned of that in embarrassing detail when I was unit historian for a historic National Guard unit that traced its direct lineage to a militia unit founded by Benjamin Franklin. The fact is that the Dick Act split the militia into the organized militia, aka National Guard and the unorganized militia, aka the male populace between the age of 18-45 and prior active duty servicemen to age 61. Any arguments for against the majority or against how the second amendment is perceived should be left out of the article, as that is a POV. The history could provide mention of private ownership of firearms, as men did own firearms that they used for both hunting and defense against those who would cause them harm, be it a brigand or a hostile Native American. The trick is to avoid undue weight on either side of the argument, lest a reader be mislead by an editor's POV, rather than tradition, practice, legal standards that have been in place before we were even a nation and continues on today. We must also recognize that even if one disagrees with any SCOTUS decision, it is the law of the land, regardless of one's wishes and one must edit in that way.Wzrd1 (talk) 00:43, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Actually "the lede should be to introduce the general subject" is not correct. (although the first sentence typically does that) The lead is supposed to summarize the article. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 01:30, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

North, thank you for your kind and respectful words, and to Wzrd, thank you for appreciating my view of how WP policy applies. I agree with the points that both of you have made including the court cases. My edits to the lead were with the intention of making it summary and I never intended it to be a unilateral effort. I'd truly like the Lead to cover the 2nd's full history very briefly and tacitly touch on recent events.

Much like the Constitution itself, the Bill of Rights is a living document and needs to ebb and flow with the times while maintaining its integrity. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 04:33, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

I can see how the lead could use some clipping on the supreme court stuff. I think it just sorta grew out of compromises. It should cover all aspects, including (non scotus) history of the 2nd amendment. ∴ Naapple TALK|CON 05:20, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Is the article not about the general subject in most cases, where more specialized areas of a subject tend to have their own articles? Hence, the lede describes the "mile away view" and specifics go in their own sections in, hopefully, a logical flow. I think we do have some degree of consensus on the SCOTUS cases not being in the lede, as they don't really add to the lede and they do have their own sections. Perhaps we can have editors sandbox suggested changes and a consensus arrived at out of those? Indeed, why not utilize our current DRN to spur an effort to reacquire the lost WP:GA that was lost a half decade ago? What we each must guard against is introducing our own POV into the article and stick with the history, traditions, common law and especially case law, whether we agree with the case law or not. If I were to be editing on Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission, I'd do my best to avoid my personal POV, even to the point of discussing that POV on the talk page in asking for other editors to review suggested changes to avoid injecting my own POV into the article. I'd do that because I have especially strong feelings about a legal fiction that is necessary for a corporation to acquire property and negotiate contracts being extended to become a fundamental right that could then potentially be abused to the point of granting corporations the right to vote, even outvote their employees. The same is true here, so I'd ask input for significant changes beyond punctuation or changing words in a sentence for improved clarity and flow. That assists in avoiding introducing POV, improves the prose itself and collaboration tends to create a superior version than unilateral work, especially when done section by section.Wzrd1 (talk) 11:16, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

I think that there has been only one specific dispute, which is GreekParadise wanting to put their creative spin characterization on (roughly) the second half of the 20th century,and to put that in the most prominent places. Here (and at DRN) I'm seeing items which have not really been thoroughly discussed (much less really disputed) being proposed for elaborate processes. I am concerned about a huge process being created that would die under it's own weight. I think that for most items we should start by discussing specifics on specific changes (not on giant bundles of changes) and see where the normal processes can take us. North8000 (talk) 11:47, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

I could support removing all court cases from the lead. State that the amendment protects both an individual and state right. A brief history – roots in English bill of rights – reasons for enactment -meanings – controversy – small number of challenges. Short paragraph on major restrictions – NFA - GCA68 - FOPA. I could also support leaving the lead as it is. Cheers. Grahamboat (talk) 16:57, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Here's my thoughts:

1. 1 choice (best) Same as now except remove Miller
2. 2 As it is now
3. 3 Remove all cases from the lead. Not a good idea, but I could live with it.

Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 17:03, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

I think we are mostly in agreement, we just have to work out the details. One of the sources I located recently (a research paper by a law professor and granted its a controversial one) stated in its introduction that the 2nd Amendment is the 2nd least contentious Amendment in terms of court cases challenging its authority or efficacy. This is true in light of the Heller case and the like. The impact of these cases is nonetheless critical and significant and thus they should be mentioned, and yes to some extent in the Lead.

That said, I think we just need to figure how to construct the Lead versus what should be in it. Like the Racism or Abortion articles, this article should be able to talk about and describe the topic without including or being mired in the debate by 'opposing sides'. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 17:31, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Absolutely agree that we shouldn't be getting into "sides" arguments. the problem is that the second amendment protections as applied (as opposed to any particular side's interpretation) are somewhat ambiguous, and defined by moving boundaries of the court cases (As is true of many rights or protections - the extent of that right/protection is defined by whatever SCOTUS rules, unless explicit in legislation (and even then...) Therefore, to accurately state what it is the amendment does (or protects), one must talk about the cases that are mapping out its boundaries. To compound this issue, those case-defined boundaries themselves are often ambiguous (as our extensive debate regarding Miller shows). It is my personal opinion, that Heller pretty much washed away the previous case law (IE, there is no remaining right or limitation of that right that is not covered/discussed by heller. ) Therefore, the "current state" of the law can be adequately described by heller (or better, reliable sources describing heller). The other case law is certainly very important both in supporting struts of heller, and in various historical moment in time interpretations. However, If someone can show part of the right, or limitation on that right that is discussed exclusively somewhere else, then I am more than happy for it to also be included in the lede (assuming it is a sufficiently important right or limitation, and not some theoretical edge case). Gaijin42 (talk) 18:18, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

All very well and true observations, but that shouldn't stop us from talking about the 2nd in its entirety and equally. WP:NEWSPAPER et. al. notwithstanding, the article has over 200 years of evolution and issues to cover. The "current state" should not be emphasized above and beyond any other stage of its existence. The "current status" could just as easily change with the next SCOTUS appointment and when that happens we'll update the article again, but in the meantime the facts are just the facts including what is or is not ambiguous if its appropriate to include. If not, then there's likely another (and more specific or directed) article that does. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 19:26, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

• One minor point, not intended to take away from the larger, more worthy issue of returning this article to Wikipedia:Good articles, is the issue of the 2nd and its application to a 'Living Constitution'. Loose Constructionism is one of several methods of judicial interpretation, likely represented in Justice Stephen Breyer's opinions -- while Scalia is a fairly obvious adherent to Textualism. Just a note to stay away from those sorts of debilitating side issues, in attempting to re-construct this page to Good status. 10stone5 (talk) 00:24, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Article protected

This article has been protected from editing for three days to try to generate talk page discussion of the disputed content. Please follow the WP:BRD guideline. You may also wish to consider dispute resolution (WP:DR). Mark Arsten (talk) 20:18, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Thank you, this is usually a prudent move on this and similar articles. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 04:16, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Dispute resolution

As already noted, the discussion above has been submitted to the Dispute Resolution process. Interested editors will want to see that, so here's a link:

• Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard/Second Amendment to the United States Constitution

— Mudwater ^(Talk) 19:08, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

thanks for the link here. ∴ Naapple TALK|CON 02:56, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Notified other active editors who should have been included – hope I didn’t miss anyone. Cheers. Grahamboat (talk) 23:59, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the notification. I've placed my 2 cents there, with mention of archived comments that are quite lengthy.Wzrd1 (talk) 00:03, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

resolution

Per administrator TransporterMan:

Welcome to the Dispute Resolution Noticeboard. Though I am a regular volunteer here, I am neither "taking" this case nor opening it for general discussion at this point in time, but I do want to ask everyone a question. When there is only one editor who wants to do something and many who do not, the first question we have to ask here at DRN is whether consensus has already been reached. If consensus has already been reached, then a listing here should be closed because there is nothing to talk about and engaging in dispute resolution would be inappropriate. It sometimes happens, however, that despite the disparity in position that the more-numerous side doesn't feel settled about the matter and is not yet willing to declare consensus without further discussion or, and this is slightly different, does feel that there is probably a consensus but wants an evaluation by a neutral party. Could everyone note in their opening statement sections, above, where they feel that this is on the question of consensus? Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 13:46, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

I believe we have reached a de facto consensus and should close the dr. Cheers. Grahamboat (talk) 17:55, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

This is a great start, why are we not using this?

User GreekParadise gets the credit for this...

The Second Amendment (Amendment II) to the United States Constitution is part of the United States Bill of Rights which protects the right of the people to keep and bear arms from infringement and cites a prefatory reason therefor: “a well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state.” [Citation: Second Amendment] It was adopted on December 15, 1791, along with the rest of the Bill of Rights.

For more than two centuries, Americans have disagreed on the meaning of the Second Amendment, the impact of its prefatory militia clause, whether it is an individual right to bear arms or a collective right to serve in a militia, and the extent to which the United States or State Governments were prohibited from infringing on this right. [citation: CRS article http://assets.opencrs.com/rpts/RL34446_20080411.pdf]

From 1791 to 2007, no federal appeals court struck down a single gun control law on Second Amendment Grounds. [citation article by the Supreme Court Correspondent for the New York Times: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/06/us/06firearms.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0] In the Nineteenth Century, the Supreme Court limited enforcement of the Second Amendment to the Federal Government alone and thus allowed the States to enforce gun regulations. [citation Cruikshank] By the Twentieth Century, the Federal Courts had virtually summarily concluded that the Second Amendment was limited to a collective right to service in a well regulated militia and found the Government could limit any weapons not having a “reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia.” [citation Miller and CRS]

In the Twenty-First Century, a Federal Court first rejected the collective interpretation and held instead that the Second Amendment confers an individual right to keep and bear arms, notwithstanding lack of service in a militia. In 2008, the Supreme Court of the United States officially adopted this view, holding expressly that the Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess and carry firearms.

In District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008), the Court ruled that the Second Amendment protects an individual's right to possess a firearm, unconnected to service in a militia and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home within many longstanding prohibitions and restrictions on firearms possession listed by the Court as being consistent with the Second Amendment. In McDonald v. Chicago, 561 U.S. 3025 (2010), the Court overruled its earlier decisions limiting the Second Amendment's impact to a restriction on the Federal Government and expressly found that the Second Amendment limits state and local governments to the same extent that it limits the federal government.

It's not perfect, but can't we start with this? I feel a bit like a dolt as this is exactly the kind of Lead I was attempting to assemble. My apologies to GP for not seeing this more promptly. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 19:43, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

It is extremely biased, and speculative, and also states a host of suppositions that are extremely contrary to documented historical facts. WP is not supposed to be a crystal ball and be speculating on what the "correct" interpretation would have been had the Supreme Court ruled on the 2A long prior to Heller. The Supreme Court ruled in the landmark case Heller for the first time on the individual vs. collective rights meanings of the 2A. We cannot hypothecate on what the Supreme Court might have ruled, had it ruled prior to when it did. We can only report what actually happened, according to cited and verifiable sources. I don't think we should start with an extremely biased and speculative opening to this article. Miguel Escopeta (talk) 19:53, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

It is a workable starting point, but in particular I think that the phrase "By the Twentieth Century, the Federal Courts had virtually summarily concluded that the Second Amendment was limited to a collective right to service in a well regulated militia and found the Government could limit any weapons not having a “reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia." contains WP:OR and misrepresentation of Miller. The ruling does not say "collective right" or "right to service in a militia" but in fact says "... some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia, we cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear such an instrument" which is open to interpretation. - However I think a weaker version of that statement along the lines of "Lower interpreted Miller to protect a collective right" or some such is probably neutral and sourcable - but we should also bring to bear the many sources that describe miller as ambiguous. We should also mention that SCOTUS twice said (Printz, Heller) that Miller was not an examination of the right, or creation of a general rule etc (obviously top of my head wording here, and not something I think should actually be used) Gaijin42 (talk) 20:40, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

I think that there are many many many problems in there. It would take an hour to detail and discuss all of them North8000 (talk) 22:15, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

As I discussed above, strictly speaking a collective right is a right given to a group, in this case the individual states, but that has rarely been argued and was not used in the dissenting opinion in DC v Heller. The CRS article defines it as a right given to each state. Also I think the lead should be shorter, and just capture the key points. TFD (talk) 23:01, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Any condensed Introduction should include SCOTUS decisions, because those decisions provide the official meaning of the amendment. Also, we need to avoid synthesis. For example, the Introduction should not include a claim that the U.S. Courts of Appeals were interpreting the Second Amendment in a certain way pre-Heller. SMP0328. (talk) 23:22, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

I find many problems with the suggestion. Starting with the unexplained prefatory clause is confusing. I don’t think "more than two centuries disagreement" is correct. What is the point of "no federal appeals court struck down a single gun control law"? All the cases were about restrictions - not rights. "Federal Courts had virtually summarily concluded… limited to a collective right" – sounds speculative and a misrepresentation of Miller. Cheers. Grahamboat (talk) 04:47, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

OK, fair enough, so how about...

The Second Amendment (Amendment II) to the United States Constitution is part of the United States Bill of Rights which protects the right of the people to keep and bear arms from infringement and cites a prefatory reason therefor: “a well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state.” [Citation: Second Amendment] It was adopted on December 15, 1791, along with the rest of the Bill of Rights.

From 1791 to 2007, no federal appeals court struck down a single gun control law on Second Amendment Grounds. [citation article by the Supreme Court Correspondent for the New York Times: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/06/us/06firearms.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0] In the Nineteenth Century, the Supreme Court limited enforcement of the Second Amendment to the Federal Government alone and thus allowed the States to enforce gun regulations. [citation Cruikshank] By the Twentieth Century, the Federal Courts had esablished that the Second Amendment was limited to a collective right to service in a well regulated militia and found the Government could limit any weapons not having a “reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia.” [citation Miller and CRS]

In the Twenty-First Century, a Federal Court first rejected the collective interpretation and held instead that the Second Amendment confers an individual right to keep and bear arms, notwithstanding lack of service in a militia. In 2008, the Supreme Court of the United States officially adopted this view, holding expressly that the Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess and carry firearms.

Two cases were instrumental in establishing this new interpretation. In District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008), the Court ruled that the Second Amendment protects an individual's right to possess a firearm, unconnected to service in a militia and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home within many longstanding prohibitions and restrictions on firearms possession listed by the Court as being consistent with the Second Amendment. In McDonald v. Chicago, 561 U.S. 3025 (2010), the Court overruled its earlier decisions limiting the Second Amendment's impact to a restriction on the Federal Government and expressly found that the Second Amendment limits state and local governments to the same extent that it limits the federal government. These decisions notwithstanding, the debate between the 'gun control' and 'gun rights' movements and related organizations continues.

Hi Scalhotrod – please remember to sign your posts – I thought it was someone else. You seem to have adopted GreekParadise’s arguments which we spent a lot of time disputing most recently at. dr

Regarding your suggested lead changes

• I don’t see the value of adding the prefatory clause.
• I don’t understand why you want to remove the English history.
• “no federal appeals court struck down a single gun control law” is misleading. The reverse is more true - No law enforcement agency, law, or court ruling was able to keep a qualified individual from owning a qualified firearm. Qualified individuals make up 75% (95% if you remove the underage) of the population. Qualified firearms make up over95% of guns in the country.

• “Federal Courts had established that the Second Amendment was limited to a collective right to service in a well regulated militia” also not true and misleading – a synthesis of Miller. None of the cases dealt with Individual or collective rights – they were all about restrictions on rights. For example:

• KONIGSBERG v. STATE BAR, 366 U.S. 36 (1961) – plaintiff refused to answer questions about Communist affiliations
• Heart of Atlanta Motel Inc. v. United States, 379 U.S. 241 (1964), civil rights case involving refusal to admit Blacks
• Adams v. Williams (1972) - limited protective search for concealed weapons
• Lewis v. United States (1980) – wrongful conviction does not remove someone from GCA68 list
• Printz v. United States (1997) - congressional action compelling state officers to execute federal law - Act’s interim provisions to be unconstitutional

In summery I think we need a better starting point. Cheers. Grahamboat (talk) 19:47, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

another try

The Second Amendment (Amendment II) to the United States Constitution is part of the United States Bill of Rights which protects the right of the people to keep and bear arms from infringement. and It reads (text of 2A) cites a prefatory reason therefor: “a well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state.” [Citation: Second Amendment] It was adopted on December 15, 1791, along with the rest of the Bill of Rights.

From 1791 to 2007, no federal appeals court struck down a single any gun control laws on Second Amendment Grounds. [citation article by the Supreme Court Correspondent for the New York Times: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/06/us/06firearms.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0] In the Nineteenth Century, the Supreme Court limited enforcement of the Second Amendment to the Federal Government alone and thus allowed the States to enforce gun regulations. [citation Cruikshank] ByDuring most of the Twentieth Century, the lower Federal Courts had established ruled using the interpretation that the Second Amendment was limited to a collective right to service in a well regulated militia. In Miller, SCOTUS and found the Government could limit any weapons not having a “reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia.” [citation Miller and CRS]

In the Twenty-First Century, a Federal Court first rejected the collective interpretation and held instead that the Second Amendment confers an individual right to keep and bear arms, notwithstanding lack of service in a militia. In 2008, the Supreme Court of the United States officially adopted this view, holding expressly that the Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess and carry firearms.

Two cases were instrumental in establishing this new interpretation. In District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008), the Court ruled that the Second Amendment protects an individual's right to possess a firearm, unconnected to service in a militia and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home within many longstanding prohibitions and restrictions on firearms possession listed by the Court as being consistent with the Second Amendment. In McDonald v. Chicago, 561 U.S. 3025 (2010), the Court overruled its earlier decisions limiting the Second Amendment's impact to a restriction on the Federal Government and expressly found that the Second Amendment limits state and local governments to the same extent that it limits the federal government. These decisions notwithstanding, the debate between the 'gun control' and 'gun rights' movements and related organizations continues.

• One particular issue I still have with this version is the "From 1791 to 2007" portion. We know that until McDonald the 2A was not incorporated against states. When was the first Federal gun law passed? Was there any before 1934? It seems deceptive to say that between 1791 and 2007 no laws were struck down if no laws even existed to attempt to be struck down until 1934 (or whenever a law was first passed)

Gaijin42 (talk) 20:08, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

There was the mail order thing in 1927, Miller Act, and another prior to that, but I can't find the reference at the moment. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 20:35, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure what GP's stance is, I'm just trying to figure out a neutral lead that summarizes the article. Soooo...

The Second Amendment (Amendment II) to the United States Constitution is part of the United States Bill of Rights which protects the right of the people to keep and bear arms from infringement adding the preface that “a well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state.” [Citation: Second Amendment] It was adopted on December 15, 1791, along with the rest of the Bill of Rights. The Second Amendment was based partially on the right to bear arms in English common-law, and was influenced by the English Bill of Rights of 1689. This right was described by Sir William Blackstone (commonly referred to simply as "Blackstone") as an auxiliary right, supporting the natural rights of self-defense, resistance to oppression, and the civic duty to act in concert in defense of the state.

This is about as basic as it gets and is similar to the other Amendment articles. Is the English reference OK or "enough"?

From 1791 to 2007, no federal appeals court struck down a single gun control law on Second Amendment Grounds. [citation article by the Supreme Court Correspondent for the New York Times: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/06/us/06firearms.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0] In the Nineteenth Century, the Supreme Court limited enforcement of the Second Amendment to the Federal Government alone and thus allowed the States to enforce gun regulations. [citation Cruikshank] By the Twentieth Century, the Federal Courts had established that the Second Amendment was limited to service in a "well regulated militia" and found the Government could limit any weapons not having a “reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia.” [citation Miller and CRS]

It might be awkwardly worded, but its factually true according to the cited source. Stating the reverse is fine with me, but we need a source for that too.

In the Twenty-First Century, a Federal Court first rejected the collective interpretation and held instead that the Second Amendment confers an individual right to keep and bear arms, notwithstanding lack of service in a militia. In 2008, the Supreme Court of the United States officially adopted this view, holding expressly that the Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess and carry firearms.

Two cases were instrumental in establishing this new interpretation. In District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008), the Court ruled that the Second Amendment protects an individual's right to possess a firearm, unconnected to service in a militia and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home within many longstanding prohibitions and restrictions on firearms possession listed by the Court as being consistent with the Second Amendment. In McDonald v. Chicago, 561 U.S. 3025 (2010), the Court overruled its earlier decisions limiting the Second Amendment's impact to a restriction on the Federal Government and expressly found that the Second Amendment limits state and local governments to the same extent that it limits the federal government. These decisions notwithstanding, the debate between the 'gun control' and 'gun rights' movements and related organizations continues.

These are seemingly OK?

My apologies for not signing previously... --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 20:31, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

I still have issues. Rational for adding the prefatory clause? We agreed earlier not use the text of 2A. in the lead. The Miller Act obviously didn’t hold as Oswald mail ordered his gun. The 1791-2007 dates must be synthesize from “for the first time” written in 2007, Liptak forgot Emerson – better to say from Miller to the rest of the twentieth century. More correct to say “gun control law restrictions to individual right of 2A”. “Amendment was limited to service in a "well regulated militia" is a synthesis of Miller. I have more but will be away for a few days. Cheers. Grahamboat (talk) 00:04, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

What is the purpose of adding to the lead “no gun control law was ever overturned” in the lead? It seems POV to me. You have claimed the lead should be a synopsis of the article. I don’t see this information in the article. It might be true but it is so complex to explain it should be in the body: not the lead. “I'm not sure what GP's stance is” your comments here and on his talk page seem to contradict that. Cheers. Grahamboat (talk) 01:35, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Scalhotrod, why are you mentioning "collective rights". TFD (talk) 04:28, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Combined draft

New version that incorporates comments here (to the extent that the citation will allow) and in keeping with the style/format of the other Amendment article Leads. Please forgive my formatting, the inline citations still need cleanup and proper WP coding...

The Second Amendment (Amendment II) to the United States Constitution is part of the United States Bill of Rights which protects the right of the people to keep and bear arms from infringement. [Citation: Second Amendment] It was adopted on December 15, 1791, along with the rest of the Bill of Rights. The Second Amendment was based partially on the right to bear arms in English common-law, and was influenced by the English Bill of Rights of 1689. This right was described by Sir William Blackstone as an auxiliary right, supporting the natural rights of self-defense, resistance to oppression, and the civic duty to act in concert in defense of the state.

The Second Amendment is unique among the Bill of Rights.[1, 1a] While in recent years it has been the source of controversy and renewed Supreme court interest, only the Third Amendment (which prohibits the quartering of troops in homes without the owner's consent) has received less judicial attention.[2] Prior to the landmark 2008 Heller case, the United States Supreme Court handed down only three opinions dealing directly with the Second Amendment,[4] the last in 1939 (with the Miller case),[5] and no federal statute or administrative regulation had been invalidated on Second Amendment grounds.

In the Nineteenth Century, the Supreme Court limited enforcement of the Second Amendment to the Federal Government alone and thus allowed the States to enforce gun regulations via the 1875 Cruikshank case. [citation Cruikshank] By the Twentieth Century, the Federal Courts had established construed that the Second Amendment was limited to 'militia' service and found the Government could limit any weapons not having a “reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia” via the 1939 Miller case. [citation Miller and CRS]

In the Twenty-First Century, a lower Federal Court determined that the Second Amendment confers an individual right to keep and bear arms, notwithstanding lack of service in a militia. In 2008, the Supreme Court of the United States officially adopted this view, holding expressly that the Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess and carry firearms via the Heller case. In McDonald v. Chicago the Court overruled its earlier decisions limiting the Second Amendment's impact to a restriction on the Federal Government and expressly found that the Second Amendment limits state and local governments to the same extent that it limits the federal government. These decisions notwithstanding, the debate between the 'gun control' and 'gun rights' movements and related organizations continues.

Need to be converted to inline cites

1. Commencement Address at Yale University, Pub. Papers 470, 471 (June 11, 1962).

1a. [citation article by the Supreme Court Correspondent for the New York Times: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/06/us/06firearms.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0]

2. See Douglas O. Linder, Trends in Constitution-Based Litigation in the Federal Courts, 63 U. MO. AT KAN. CITY L. REV. 41, 69 (1994) (stating that third amendment cases were least litigated). Compare U.S. CONST. amend. II with U.S. CONST. amend. III.

3. Compare U.S. CONST. amend. I with U.S. CONST. amend. II (totaling pages in bound volumes and 1996 Supplementary Pamphlets).

4. See United States v. Cruikshank, 92 U.S. 542 (1976); United States v. Miller, 307 U.S. 174 (1939); Presser v. Illinois, 116 U.S. 252 (1886). Gun control supporters like to call attention to Lewis v. United States, 445 U.S. 55, 65 n.8 (1980) (noting that Second Amendment does not guarantee right to either keep or bear firearms if there is no relationship to militia), while gun control opponents often cite United States v. Verdugo-Urquidez, 494 U.S. 259, 265 (1990) (suggesting that term "the people" as used in First, Second, and Fourth Amendments may all refer to "persons who are part of a national community"). However, neither of these cases presented a Second Amendment issue, and the court's brief and passing comments about the Second Amendment in both of these cases are clearly dicta.

5. See Miller, 307 U.S. 174.

--Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 16:43, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

We do not know if the right to bear arms existed under common law, Blackstone was referring to the right that the 2A protects or if the 1689 act influenced the 2A. I also think that we should use secondary sources explaining what the amendment means, rather than relying on SCOTUS rulings. TFD (talk) 18:42, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Then what wording do you suggest, the rest of the WP Amendment articles cite sources and influences for their creation? I was following suit. And I'm always fine with additional sources. We likely have ample to select from already... --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 19:04, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

I have issue with the "federal courts established" part. Heller (and printz) were very clear and explicit that Heller was not overturning prior precedent. Therefore, Miller certainly did not establish anything. To what degree do lower courts have the ability to establish anything? (Particularly when there were 2 circuits that disagreed). Did (most) lower courts rule under that interpretation? Yes. Did they establish anything? No. Gaijin42 (talk) 19:17, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

I "hemmed and hawed" over using the word 'established' as well. I'm open to suggestions as well as specificity. As far as that paragraph is concerned, I have some idea of what GP was going for but I think additional detail and references would be helpful. It was the standard back then that if a gun was more "military-like" (versus intentionally concealable), then it was allowed, hence the laundry list of firearms (i.e. gangster weapons) that the 1934 NFA made illegal. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 19:45, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

I think it's good. Good enough. It should be chucked in the lede. There's nothing there that isn't unworkable at this point, and it's way better than the current one. We can continue editing/tweaking from the article now. ∴ Naapple TALK|CON 23:06, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Thank you Naapple, but lets try to get it as polished as we can before going live. Tweaking and perpetual edits are part of what set off this drawn out mess. At the very least I want to post a version here that's coded and cited properly. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 01:33, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

Now I think we have a good starting point. In light of past disputes over lede changes, I agree we need more tweaks to reach a consensus before releasing. Nice work Scalhotrod. Cheers. Grahamboat (talk) 17:42, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

Many thanks Graham, I hope that we can get a few more of the more active editors to comment, but I too am happy with the direction we have taken. Time permitting, I will work on the citation cleanup and the coding. After we load the new Lead, I would very much like to see about returning this article to its previous "Good" status. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 19:01, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

There are several issues with the proposed text. Here is my attempt to address these issues:

The Second Amendment (Amendment II) to the United States Constitution is the second part of the United States Bill of Rights and protects the right of the people to keep and bear arms from infringement. [Citation: Second Amendment] It was adopted on December 15, 1791, along with the rest of the Bill of Rights. The Second Amendment was based partially on the right to bear arms in English common-law, and was influenced by the English Bill of Rights of 1689. This right was described by Sir William Blackstone as an auxiliary right, supporting the natural rights of self-defense, resistance to oppression, and the civic duty to act in concert in defense of the state.

The Second Amendment is unique among the Bill of Rights for historically having elicited very little judicial attention.[1, 1a] In recent years, though, it has been the source of controversy and renewed Supreme court interest; only the Third Amendment (which prohibits the quartering of troops in homes without the owner's consent) has received less judicial attention.[2] Prior to the landmark 2008 Heller case, the United States Supreme Court handed down only three opinions dealing directly with the Second Amendment,[4] the last in 1939 (with the Miller case).[5]

In the Nineteenth Century, prior to the incorporation of the Second Amendment, the Supreme Court limited enforcement of the Second Amendment to the Federal Government alone.

In the Twenty-First Century, a lower Federal Court determined that the Second Amendment confers an individual right to keep and bear arms, notwithstanding lack of service in a militia. In 2008, the Supreme Court of the United States officially verified this view, holding expressly that the Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess and carry firearms via the Heller case. In McDonald v. Chicago the Court overruled its earlier decisions issued prior to the incorporation of the Second Amendment, formerly limiting the Second Amendment's impact to a restriction on the Federal Government alone and expressly found that the Second Amendment limits state and local governments to the same extent that it limits the federal government. These decisions notwithstanding, the debate between the 'gun control' and 'gun rights' movements and related organizations continues.

With the edits made above, the speculation that was present in the original proposed text has been removed, leaving only the verified and unspeculative text. Comments? Miguel Escopeta (talk) 19:49, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

I think you meant a word other than "verified" above, and it was more than "a" lower federal court, it was 10/12 circuits, but I am not sure how best to describe that accurately (Perhaps just saying 10 circuits ruled that way). Gaijin42 (talk) 20:04, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

In the 3rd paragraph about the 19th century, when (what year?) was the incorporation you are referring to? And why did you remove the other sentences, what was stated was noted only cited, but was the actual court standard for the era. Court cases substantiate this. Its not speculation. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 16:27, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

• Incorporation of the Bill of Rights -- I'm assuming this. 10stone5 (talk) 23:19, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

This is quite good so far, however we must include:

1. some mention of the academic research in the late 20th century.
2. Of interest in the 19th century: State supreme court decisions, commentary, the debates over adoption of the 14th amendment, and two SCOTUS decisions
3. That "Heller" is the first in depth look at the 2nd amendment by SCOTUS

I'm glad such progress has been made lets remember to be in the lede all (or most) sources should agree. J8079s (talk) 22:45, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

I'd suggest well established limitations on what classes of firearm one may possess, in short, a brief blurb and wikilink to the National Firearms Act of 1934. This is to correct any misapprehension that firearms covered under the NFA are unlawful, but that restrictions are in place to insure that the most potentially dangerous of our firearms are possessed by those of known mental, moral and community good status. It should be not too difficult to make such an addition in two sentences or so, with wikilinks to send those interested to the detailed article.

That said, the rest of the proposed prose is good. It gives the general outline and lets references and wikilinks "do the heavy lifting" for those who desire further detail. I'll help if I can, but time is precious of late since my father became ill again.Wzrd1 (talk) 03:53, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

Just a few vague comments. The first draft had some severe problems which the second draft fixed. Wzrd1's comments are good, but mostly look like stuff for the article rather than the lead. North8000 (talk) 11:26, 9 August 2013 (UTC)