Talk:Scythian campaign of Darius I

Opinion

The article author(s) makes repeated claims about the success of the Persian invasion without any textual support. This stance is tendentious, at best. RobotBoy66 (talk) 09:20, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

Unreliable source, one-sided. Denies contemporary Turkish source

Öñre Bıña Başı the Turkish historian from the Turkish Commonwealth is also a source for this conflict. So its not only herodotus, and unlike herodotus. Öñre Bıña Başı and every other historian from the Turkish Commonwealth none of them mix myths and tailes with reality and also they dont write from their own opinion, and even try to write objectifely not even mentioning themselves unless theyre talking about an event in which they take place in themselves. For example; see Tarïat and Şine-Usu inscriptions erected by Öñre Bıña Başı. Öñre Bıña Başı in his work of the Şine-Usu inscription mentions Ürüñ Beg calling for his help against Darius, and afterwards mentions himself using guerilla warfare against Darius and defeating him. I will provide much more in depth information about Öñre Bıña Başı after I have created a page about him and then we will also be able to edit such articles like these. Also Öñre Bıña Başı is not the only source from the Turkish Commonwealth, The Palace historians (Yoluğ Tïgin) by order of the Qağans also mentioned this event of the war against Darius afterwards. HiddenRealHistory19 (talk) 02:04, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Modified result

I'll create this in advance just in case, because there may be a question about the recent edit.[1]

I changed the outcome based on the new WP:RS, to be honest, nowhere in the article does there appear a direct quote that the Persians won, except for a lot of captured lands, which does not correlate with the final result, because the main task of the Persians was to punish the Scythians directly, on p.138 Gulyaev write: The next layer of information about the past of Scythia is associated with the dramatic events of the end of the VI century BC, when the Persian king Darius I decided, at the head of a huge army, to invade the Northern Black Sea region from the west, across the Danube, and "punish" the militant nomadic Scythians for past (almost two centuries ago) "sins", that is, for outrages in Media and Near Asia at the end of the VII century BC. In any case, this was the reason for the outbreak of war chosen, according to Herodotus, the ruler of Persia. Based on this, the main goal of the Persians was not to capture the deserted territory of the Scythians, but to punish the latter, which ultimately failed.

To top it off with a second quote from the same source: However, only the pitiful remnants of a once formidable army left the Scythian borders. So ingloriously ended the attempt of the powerful Persian Empire to conquer the Northern Black Sea region. This war not only brought the Scythians the glory of an invincible people, but also increased the military and political priority of the Scythians in this and in neighboring regions. The victory over Darius had a great impact on the strengthening of the central government in Scythia itself.

I will also quote the second source (Kuznetsova 1992): Having invaded the Black Sea steppes, Darius I hoped to quickly deal with the Scythians, but he failed. The Scythians chose a successful tactic of luring the enemy into the interior of the country and, without engaging the howling Persians in battle, exhausted him in the steppe expanses of the Black Sea region, forced him to flee, leaving the sick and weak warriors to their fate. Thus, the Scythians won, having acquired the name of an invincible people in history. The campaign of Darius against the Scythians is dated by researchers in different ways, but the most likely assumption is the date that relates this event to 512 BC.

With a couple of differences, campaign can be compared to a similar one in Greece, about which a discussion has already collapsed, where it was decided that the most logical results were an indecisive or Greek victory (agreed on the first), so, I will indicate the discrepancies:

1: There was no general battle, which one of the sides was so clearly looking for it.

2: Complete withdrawal of Persian troops from the territory of the Scythian steppes.

3: Availability of WP:RS about Scythians victory.

The previous text was not supported by any sources, except for a quote referring to the time of the campaign, and not its consequences (Boardman 1982), changing the outcome on such a basis clearly violates the policy WP:OR. So I'm changing the result from Persian victory to Scythians victory. Dushnilkin (talk) 18:32, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

so let me get this straight you are changing it cause the final goal of the Achaemenids was to punish the scythians but they kept running away so it was technically a scythian victory? Despite the fact darius conquered alot of land and captured the important cities? MrHappy2020 (talk) 15:52, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

Who won the War in Afghanistan (2001–2021)? Remsense ‥ 论 15:59, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

What kind of response is that? i am talking about this conflict and your argument is that it is technically a scythian victory because they kept running away from the Achaemenid army and let their lands and cities be conquered by darius so he TECHNICALLY couldn't punish them? MrHappy2020 (talk) 16:05, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

My view is that sources see the war as Persia accomplishing none of its objectives while taking much heavier losses than the Scythians. Persian territorial gains were temporary and the Scythians succeeded in ensuring that Persia could never consider another campaign to subjugate them again. Remsense ‥ 论 16:11, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

You still admit that there were territoral gains which is why the old version was a Persian victory they conquered the cities and the lands around the black sea and i even added the fact that they didnt completely manage to subjective the scythians so it is a more detailed version instead of just saying that it was a total persian victory or a total scythian victory MrHappy2020 (talk) 16:14, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

If territorial gains and victory were equivalent, then |result= and |territory= wouldn't be totally separate parameters. It does not say "total victory" for anyone—that language is specifically disallowed for the |result= parameter. If you would like nuance, peruse the actual section of the article being summarized.Remsense ‥ 论 16:16, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

what do you mean? It should be it was a Persian victory as one of the goals was to conquer land while yes they didnt completely subjective the local scythians the reason for that was that they were nomads that just kept running away from the Achaemenid army rather than in the greco persian wars a very specific persian lose MrHappy2020 (talk) 16:18, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

The Persian goal was not to control those urban centers for a time, it was to subjugate the Scythians and better secure their northwestern flank and the area's trade routes, would would in turn of course result in control of their territory. This was not very valuable land for the Persians, it must be stressed. They failed, and they did not benefit much from their "consolation prize", which arguably overextended them given they had not neutralized the rival powers on their border. Remsense ‥ 论 16:25, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

Those cities would have been valuable for trade thats the whole reason the greeks had set up outposts around that area in the first place and they still did conquer that area and once again i did add the fact they didnt completely subjective the scythians it wasnt a complete persian victory but only a brief territorial one MrHappy2020 (talk) 16:30, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

lets come to a comprise of some sorts what do you say? MrHappy2020 (talk) 16:31, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

Horse trading is rarely a good idea; instead, we should report what the reliable sources say balanced according to the prevalence of each position. Remsense ‥ 论 16:35, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

Horse trading? And thats exactly what i am trying to do just saying it was a complete victory for either side is wrong how about this "Territorial Persian victory" but "Strategic Scythian victory"? MrHappy2020 (talk) 16:37, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

We do not do that, as the infobox is not the place for it; please see WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE and WP:RESULT. Remsense ‥ 论 16:38, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

I know what the info box is supposed to relfext and thats exactly what i am trying to fix your current edit completely ignored the fact that the Achaemenids managed to conquer the area even if it was for a brief period and makes it seem like it was a total scythian victory but it was more like it was a Territorial Persian victory but a strategic Scythian victory as you said yourself darius didnt completely subjective them as he wanted MrHappy2020 (talk) 16:41, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

There's a good reason that such details are not mentioned in such a brief summary: ultimately, they are not treated as important by our sources. We reflect that, and don't highlight what we find to be neglected aspects of the topic. Remsense ‥ 论 16:43, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

tell me that good reason then i am completely open to a comprise that reflects the true result of this war and the previous version of this page before you edited it had it just as a Persian victory which admittedly could have used more detail which i am trying to do now lets try to find some common ground. MrHappy2020 (talk) 16:47, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

I told you the reason. There's no compromise between your preferred presentation and mine; we are obliged to follow what our sources say weighted by how often they emphasize each aspect. Remsense ‥ 论 16:48, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

i am following the sources you yourself said that the persians did conquer the area but only for a brief time meaning it was a territorial victory but it didnt achieve the main goal of subjecting the scythians completely hence it also being a scythian strategic victory MrHappy2020 (talk) 16:51, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

i even added the thing you wanted the fact that they didnt completely subjective the scythians but to leave out the fact they did manage to conquer the area and the cities even if it was for a brief period is gonna make any reader of this article confused MrHappy2020 (talk) 16:21, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

How will this confuse readers? They captured, but could not consolidate the success, in any case, the text in the article is added based on WP:RS, and your WP:OR won't solve anything, the sources say otherwise. Dushnilkin (talk) 17:20, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

they captured the area hence a Territorial victory but they didnt manage to subjective the scythians completely hence a strategic scythian victory and i am not doing orginal research as i am going off what the sources say themselves. MrHappy2020 (talk) 17:30, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

Obviously, if they temporarily seized something and then left (as the sources say), then this does not make them winners. According to Template:Infobox military conflict dividing the wins into "strategic, etc." is inappropriate, respectively, your variation of the infobox except for the violation WP:LIE it also violates the design standards. No source claims that as a result of the war, the Persians captured something, they occupied the territory, but eventually left it at the end of the conflict, according to two specified sources, who also directly call it the Scythian victory. Dushnilkin (talk) 17:34, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

Which are the specifics sources that claim that it was a Scythian victory and what is their reasoning for it? Also i have noticed since then you have removed the fact that the Achaemenids failed to capture any territory in the info box but when i changed that it was removed and i was told it was wrong? MrHappy2020 (talk) 11:45, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

The sources are listed in the article, and the quotes from them are above on this discussion page. The Achaemenids were unable to capture the territory of the Scythians and completely retreated, again, the sources are indicated. Dushnilkin (talk) 12:18, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

Both Shahbazi and Boardman stated that the Achaemenids were relatively successful.

According to them Not only they damaged The Scythians reputation and Lands but they annexed Thrace and Occupied Coasts of the black sea until The Greco_Persian wars when the left the region.

It is also stated that after this campaign the Scythians started respecting Persians and never again raided their lands. Kasra hp81 (talk) 19:39, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

I don't see an exact quote anywhere about the Achaemenid victory. We also have two quotes about the fact that the Scythians gained fame as invincible after this campaign. Give an exact quote from the source where it says that the Achaemenids achieved at least some success. Dushnilkin (talk) 19:42, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

Shahbazi states the Scythian fame was damaged their allied lands destroyed and they didn't raid Persian lands Again. Kasra hp81 (talk) 20:01, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

Those are several statements, none of which are "the Scythians were defeated". I am not going to try to prove to you that negative outcomes resulting from a conflict are not the same thing as defeat. Please do not edit articles if you cannot properly interpret what sources say and do not say. "Persian victory" is a claim you yourself are making, not the sources. If you cite these sources to the statement "Persian victory", you are lying and putting words in your sources' mouths. Remsense ‥ 论 20:03, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

It is literally in the campaign section Kasra hp81 (talk) 20:12, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

Are we reading how we've summarized the sources, or what the sources actually say? Because it is possible we should adjust the prose in the article body as well, given we're trying to best represent the views held by all of our sources. Remsense ‥ 论 20:13, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

"Represent the best views held by all of our sources (the way we like)" the sources that you state here are articles while Shahbazi wrote a book about the Achaemenid Empire Kasra hp81 (talk) 20:22, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

Right. They damaged the Scythians' reputation, overextended themselves by making themselves responsible for guaranteeing security in some crummy land even further beyond their previous frontiers, accomplished none of what they actually wanted to accomplish, and lost the war. Please stop holding out territorial gains as evidence, because it doesn't matter here at all, especially considering the steppe nomad roots of the Scythians. Remsense ‥ 论 19:42, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

They did accomplish making the Scythians to Stop harassing their trade and not ever again daring to raid their lands Kasra hp81 (talk) 19:54, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

It was not the main goal of the campaign, see the page above Dushnilkin (talk) 19:56, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

The main goal of the campaign was punishing the Scythians for their raids and they did.

Also it's better than achieving some of the goal than nothing at all unlike the Scythians. Kasra hp81 (talk) 19:58, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

They didn't do it, why are you lying? Above there are two quotes from WP:RS, who claims that Darius failed the campaign. The main task of the Scythians, respectively, is to reflect it, they really did it. Dushnilkin (talk) 20:02, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

"The initiative still lay with him. As the tactics of evading Darius' army and scorched earth were continued by the Scythians, they had failed however completely, though Darius had failed too as still he wasn't able to bring it to a direct confrontation. He had conquered enough Scythian territory to force the Scythians to respect the Persian forces"

This is literally in the Campaign menu Kasra hp81 (talk) 20:11, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

If we refer to the text next to the infobox, there is no exact verdict on the campaign, both sides suffered heavy losses, but someone fulfilled their tasks, this someone is Scythians, we have sources for this. Stop dealing WP:OR. Dushnilkin (talk) 20:18, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

What task did they fulfilled !? You mean Not being completely wiped out by the Persians !!! Kasra hp81 (talk) 20:20, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

Well, yes, that's what I mean, the reflection of the Persian invasion, which ended, according to Shahbazi, with nothing "except raising the authority of the Persians in the eyes of the Scythians," although these same Scythians simultaneously gained fame as invincible. Obviously, Shahbazi does not claim anywhere that the campaign ended with any success, so stop referring to it. Dushnilkin (talk) 20:23, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

You are really wasting our time. Cite a source that directly claims a Persian victory—not anything else you've conflated with a direct claim of victory so far—or there's nothing left to discuss here. Remsense ‥ 论 20:26, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

Darius never wanted to completely annex the Scythians,

but I'm not going to argue anymore cos you have decided to do whatever you think is right and called me layer several times while I'm saying what is literally written in our sources. Kasra hp81 (talk) 20:40, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

Neither of your sources also directly claim a decisive Scythian victory.

But I'm not going to argue anymore cos I don't want to "waste your (Priceless) Time" anymore; Edit the infobox however you like as you feel is right. Kasra hp81 (talk) 20:43, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

The discussion page was created in order to facilitate the verification of the sources I have indicated, I have quoted verbatim from where it is explicitly written "Scythians won". Dushnilkin (talk) 22:14, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

but your edit makes it seem like it was a complete persian loss instead of a more subject take i even added the fact they didnt completely subjective the scythians MrHappy2020 (talk) 16:07, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

Hello are you gonna respond back? MrHappy2020 (talk) 16:09, 13 December 2024 (UTC)