Talk:Sayonara, Zetsubou-Sensei/Archive 1

Archive 1

絶倫 (zetsurin) does mean "horny"

According to this dictionary.

You do see the definition "unequalled" as well in other dictionaries such as this or this. In fact, that is the original meaning of the word, etymologically speaking. Nowadays, however, the word is mostly used in the "unequalled in sexual stamina" context. If my words (from the native Japanese speaker) is not enough, Google search of the word yields many websites that use the word in that context. (26 of them among top 30 search results.) Yes, it is technically correct to say 絶倫 means "Unequaled", but saying "Absolutely does not mean horney" is a bit off. Kzaral 19:25, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

You're right, I should have been more specific: It absolutely does not mean horny in this context. There is no implication anywhere in the book that the character is sexually promiscuous. Doceirias 19:58, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

As I said, in modern Japanese, zetsurin mostly means "unequalled in sexual stamina", whatever the context. If you see the manga, when Rin first appears (in vol.2, page 101-), Kafuka calls her "Zetsurin Sensei!" and Rin gets angry (saying "I need a sword now."). She won't get angry if zetsurin means "unequalled" in general context, since it would be a compliment. It's true Rin is not horny character at all, but their names don't always reflect their characters, anyway. Right, most characters in Sayonara Zetsubo Sensei have names related to them. I guess that's why there is a misunderstanding here, but she makes an exception.

Quote from JA Wikipedia article:

名前を繋げて読むと「絶倫」となる事から、可符香に「絶倫先生」と呼ばれる。この為、嫁入りして「糸色」の姓を捨てるのを願望としている。

She wants to abandon the family name "糸色", because she hates the fact it can be read as 絶倫 (Zetsurin), hence the joke. Kzaral 09:03, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Kafuka Fūra, not a real name?

"Kafuka Fūra is not her real name." (From this article.)

I added a Fact template to the above statement. Then User:Juhachi removed it, saying that "that was stated at the end of episode 1." I re-watched the first episode of the anime today, and re-read the first chapter of the book, but was unable to find any reference to that. Can you more precisely locate it, like "17:25 of the anime, episode 1" or "page 11 of the manga, chapter 1"? --Acepectif 19:21, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Okay, it was stated at the end of the afk sub release of episode 1 (after the ending credits are over). I trust that he wasn't making it up and got it from some reliable source, such as the manga in later chapters.--十八 20:02, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Lengthy discussion about it here: http://zetubou.hewl.info/wiki/wiki.cgi?page=%C9%F7%B1%BA%B2%C4%C9%E4%B9%E1 Doceirias 20:10, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Doesn't P.N. stand for "pen name?" (21:58 of ep 1)--Bluish wolf 13:48, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I thought so too. It's visable after her name in the credits of each episode, so that should be evidence enough.--十八 17:56, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Cleaned up the second and third episode details

I cleaned up some of the second and third episode details. If anyone thinks they are bad or too long, fix them if you want. I just wanted the summerys to be more accurate. JoseSkinner 02:20, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Who changed the display picture?

The old one which showed Itoshiki was a much better selection. The current display picture looks very unsuited for the topic. It's just lettering.

I did since the convention used most often is to put the logo in the infobox so it doesn't unnecessarily lengthen the box into the body of the article. Don't blame me if the logo is rather bland.--十八 12:47, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

I'd prefer to keep it with the manga cover, myself. Problem was, I didn't have a source for that image, and it was about to be deleted. Doceirias 18:41, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Production section

http://www.p-tina.net/interview/14/04.html http://www.p-tina.net/interview/14/01.html Two part interview with the director, probably has some good bits. No time to go through it myself, sorry. Doceirias 20:10, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Fixed the Komori entry

Did it because there was no mention of her house breaking down. She just can't break her reclusive habit. --68.123.155.254 00:26, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Read the manga. _dk 01:35, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Read it, reread it. Still no signs that her house actually crashed. Her house crumbling is just Fuuka. Unless it's something that's mentioned in later chapters.--68.123.155.254 08:08, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

It's in the last chapter of volume 1, from a comment by Kafuka: "Because Komori is here, the school is able to maintain its prosperity. If she leaves the school would be destroyed! Actually, the house Komori-san left a while ago was destroyed. How terrible." (translation mine) _dk 08:30, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Anything verifiable only by Kafuka's stories can't be taken as fact. She's more than likely making it up to coincide with her crazy story. In the case of the anime that makes the most sense, also the manga translation I got said that Kafuka's house was in shambles before Komori came to the school and brought prosperity, which also supports that she's just making it up. Even if she Isn't making it up, it's definitely not clear enough to state as fact.24.20.155.166 (talk) 09:59, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Email vs. SMS

I was under the impression that Japanese phones didn't use SMS, but used real Email. Or at the very least, when I was over there for a few weeks, the cheap as hell phone I rented was able to do email to real email addresses.

So why is it that people constantly translate メール to SMS on articles like this?

203.217.22.128 01:53, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Because that's what it means? Cheap messages done from phone to phone. SMS messages can also be sent to ordinary email addresses in Japan or America, but are clearly a stripped down version of the real thing. For longer messages, you would have to use an actual email. Doceirias 03:02, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

That's not exactly the case. Yes, Japan uses SMS to a certain extent in a modified manner. SMS is an intracarrier feature, for example SkyMail on SoftBank. They aren't compatible with other carriers though. You can't send a SkyMail to a DoCoMo phone for instance. So, if the two people happen to be on the same carrier and their message is short enough, then yes they can use their carrier's version of SMS, if not, then it will have to be a real e-mail sent via the internet. Either way, I personally dislike the translation of メール to SMS. 219.25.41.201 (talk) 02:20, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

I think the technical distinction is irrelevant to the point of the joke. Few people actually understand the difference, and its more a matter of whether saying you're sending email from your phone sounds natural in English. I don't even really know the term SMS, and would have simply called it messaging - I usually translate it that way. Neutral term, carries across what is happening without needing to be explained. Doceirias (talk) 04:48, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Probably right. I've not read any English translations of manga before, so whether it's actually being translated as "SMS" is something that I do not know. I just hope it's not. "seding a message" or "sending a text" seems much more natural. I would gather most English speakers wouldn't know SMS either or what it is. Conversly, though, instances of messaging via cellphone in from foreign sources (movies, books, etc) get translated to メール in Japanese it seems. So they don't make the distinction either it seems. 219.25.41.201 (talk) 08:42, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

I have to agree post. SMS is a very specific term for a very specific use, ie a specific protocal. Using SMS for generic messaging system shouldn't be done. 'Text Messaging' which is a more general phrase is more appropriate.Jinnai (talk) 07:38, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

It's totally different. It's just that it's cheap to send emails from a mobile phone in Japan. If you are an internet savvy person you might use email frequently so your friends could read it on their computer (watch Hell Girl, SE Lain or Death Note), on the other hand why do you use SMS if your phone can receive emails. And besides email is more flexible than SMS. I'm from the Philippines it's not cheap to send e-mails thru phone. ;) Kamuixtv (talk) 09:31, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Episode summaries

The episode summaries are bloated with minutiae, while leaving out helpful context (such as the lack of a mention of the reference to The Metamorphosis in episode 7's title). In other words, they need to be rewritten. I'm going to finish watching the series probably in the next week or so, but anyone else may feel free to work on them in the meantime. Leebo ^T/C 23:03, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Sayonara Zetsubō Sensei - Zetsubou Shōjo Senshū

There's a special DVD, titled Sayonara Zetsubō Sensei Jo ~Zetsubō Shōjo Senshū~, from what I've seen in comparison, it looks a lot like recap episode but with several minor changes (such as Ichigo 1000% joke becomes the actual Ichigo 100% manga) and a lot of additional scene. Shouldn't we note this somehow? As OVA? --29dupe (talk) 06:00, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Nevermind that. I've added to the article already, as a special summary DVD. Episode listing is needed, though. --29dupe (talk) 13:34, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

In the article it says that this is made up of seven parts with one heroine in each part. Who are those seven and should that be included in the article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.190.182.113 (talk) 02:00, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but I think putting it in List of Sayonara Zetsubou Sensei episodes works better. —29th ((☎)) 19:26, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

About the Titles of Each Episodes

For the first episode of Zoku Sayonara Zetsubo sensei, I've added 当組は問題の多い教室ですから、どうかそこはご承知ください as the title of the first episode as this was the title that appeared immediately after the opening theme song. Meanwhile, the sub-part before the opening theme seemed more like a complementary part to the episode 1. Do you think we should put both of the titles for episode 1 in the episode list like this ほら、男爵の妄言／当組は問題の多い教室ですから どうかそこはご承知ください? Or just the title of the main episode of the episode 1 like it is right now. Stevefis (talk) 21:45, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I've been wondering why we've only had one title each since it seems that every episode has two. Shouldn't both be included?—Ｌｏｖｅはドコ？ (talk • contribs) 22:08, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree that this should be included but if we do this, I think we should have done the same to first season too. Also, all episode title is a parody to something, shouldn't we note this too? --29dupe (talk) 22:20, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

For now, maybe we can use the two title format for each episodes in the second season and also convert the titles in the first season one by one to the two title format.Stevefis (talk) 22:40, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

For formatting, I think if we do something like this mockup, it should be much easier to read. But I don't know if it's possible to request editing for Template:Japanese episode list for something trivial like this. --29dupe (talk) 23:25, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

That definitely looks better; given the number of shows (particularly gag anime) that have this two short episodes equal one episode format, it might be worth either adding to the template, or creating an alternate template that allowed the two titles for each episode. Doceirias (talk) 23:38, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

As with User:TangentCube said below, I guess making a new template for this purpose seems to be a better way. Something like Template:Japanese episode list-compatible multi-line template swappable only when needed. Now for me to learn how to write template... —29th ((☎)) 02:20, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

The episode template has had problems running into the transclusion size limit in the past with the longer lists (One Piece et al.), so the last thing we need is to increase its size; what do you think of the example at Nagasarete Airantō? —TangentCube, Dialogues 23:36, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

That looks nice too, although I prefer two-rows style as it's much easier to scan through the article. But if increasing the template's size will cause problem to long list, then I guess we'll have to use this "<br />" for now. —29th ((☎)) 02:20, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

How does this look for a template? —TangentCube, Dialogues 03:53, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Looks great! I think we can use that without any problems. —29th ((☎)) 04:59, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Created as Template:Japanese episode list multi-part. —TangentCube, Dialogues 06:19, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Now we just gotta get the titles for season one. Eheh.—Ｌｏｖｅはドコ？ (talk • contribs) 07:05, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

I did a quick scan of the first season and only found three episodes with two titles:

• Episode 4, B part: アンテナ立ちぬいざ生きめやも
• Episode 7, A part: 仮名の告白
• Episode 10, A part: 一人の文化人が羅生門の下で雨やどりしていた

I may have read some of those wrong, too. —TangentCube, Dialogues 09:36, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Added. —29th ((☎)) 21:06, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Zoku

The episode summary for Zoku's first episode seems to suggest that it's not really a "second season" so much as a "reimagining" (e.g., the original Negima!: Magister Negi Magi vs. Negima!?). Should we be calling it "second season"? "Second series" is probably a better description – in any case, we should at least say "Zoku" instead of constantly saying "second season."—Ｌｏｖｅはドコ？ (talk • contribs) 01:51, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

A-Part of the first episode is a "fake summary" joke from sleeve-cover of manga Vol.1. They (kind of) disregard this part by putting it as avant title (before the OP, although I take 8 minutes) and saying "From sleeve-cover of Sayonara Zetsubou Sensei volume. 1". B-Part is just the same Sayonara Zetsubou Sensei as previous season. —29th ((☎)) 02:13, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Oh. So it's one of those confusing episodes where it's kind of difficult to tell whether it's imaginary or not?—Ｌｏｖｅはドコ？ (talk • contribs) 02:17, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

It's more like those spin-off extra OVA that has nothing related to the main story (like Magical Girl Kokoro-chan for School Days). I've changed the article to reflect this already. —29th ((☎)) 21:08, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

More of a dadaist stunt, like the cliffhanger ending that was utterly ignored the next week, or Kafka's real name. (Someone actually calls her An-chan in the first episode of the new season.) Expecting narrative coherence from this series is a fool's errand anyway... Doceirias (talk) 22:44, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

About Zoku Episode 2 Part A

This episode is supposedly based on one of the manga chapter, but the japanese subtitle of script has been so heavily distorted that the whole chapter doesn't make much sense. Should we put the content of original manga chapter or the japanese subtitle that is provided by the anime episode?Stevefis (talk) 16:56, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, of course we're going to use the anime's episode subtitle. If it's the anime's name for the episode, it's what goes into the anime episode list.—Ｌｏｖｅはドコ？ (talk • contribs) 18:54, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

I'd like to follow the anime's episode subtitle, but it's really full of jibberish (looks like some kind of prank) and nonsenses, which cannot be really put into a sensible summary. The manga's script fits nearly perfectly with the animation and its content makes much more sense. If I have to make a summary out of the anime's subtitle, it would be "An alien invades Nozumu's school and messes up everything".. For now, I'll put manga's summary and make note of it. Stevefis (talk) 19:19, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

After reading a translation; seems like the subtitle itself is a parody to Dragon Ball Z and doesn't really make any sense. But anyway, those short summary were to represent the anime episode, anime version of the subtitle should be use in this case. However, I think the original story from the manga, which makes much more sense, should be noted somewhere in the article. —29th ((☎)) 05:44, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Zoku no kanji

I recognize that it may well have been an intentional word play on the part of the manga/anime creators, but just to be sure, is the sequel really entitled using the character 俗 (zoku), meaning vulgar, i.e. not refined, not classy, rather than the more common 続 (zoku), meaning a continuation? LordAmeth (talk) 09:19, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

The easiest way to check it to watch the anime or visit the official website. http://www.starchild.co.jp/special/zetsubou2/ Stevefis (talk) 11:28, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Righto. Sorry for the bother. LordAmeth (talk) 21:55, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Itoshiki name puns

I like to point out that earlier I translated Itoshiki (compressed of course) Hiroshi in one of those translators and came out as 'immeasurable'. I thought I bring that up because in Episode 6 when Nozomu went back to the Itoshiki estate and talked to the kids about Hiroshi who they called "number 0.1 because he's still alive". I thought about altering the article but didn't because a) I'm on a computer than can't use Japanese scripts and b) it might be one of those pun within a pun (like Chiri). Also, I would like to point out that Enshi Itoshiki's name compressed comes out as 'zetsuen' or 'isolated'. I haven't read the manga so I don't know what exactly his fate is so I was wondering if anybody else is able to clarify that it fits his character or anything. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.224.43.78 (talk) 01:46, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

In this case, Zetsuen means all ties have been severed; relations broken off - maybe even disinherited. Zetsudai means supreme or immeasurable; it probably is a little stronger than 'great.' Doceirias (talk) 02:50, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

If you take a look at the family tree in episode 6, you'll see that the line that connects Enishi to his parents is crossed out, and was thus likely disowned as his name suggests. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.171.71.247 (talk) 04:18, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Classroom seats

I'm just wondering if it's a good idea to include the seat number in the student's info. I know it seems pointless, but it is info nonetheless. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.190.182.113 (talk) 04:37, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Pointless fancruft. Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. Doceirias (talk) 07:28, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Doceirias. If it's pointless, then it shouldn't be included.--十八 08:23, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Also the problem is that the numbers seem to be inconsistent between the anime and the manga. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.224.43.78 (talk) 23:21, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Episode list split

Should we split the episode list to List of Sayonara Zetsubō Sensei episodes already? Since the current page is really long. And Zoku list is getting longer and longer every episode (since it has three titles). —29th ((☎)) 08:27, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I completely agree. If anyone wants to take a crack it, go right ahead.--十八 08:29, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

OK, done. —29th ((☎)) 09:43, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

About Ikkyū-san

I just saw an edit that remove honorific from Ikkyū-san. But in character introduction page in Manga and Animation Staff credit, his name is always written as Ikkyū-san instead of simply Ikkyū. I know that you don't put honorific in character's name in the wikipedia articles, but I think his name could be exempt from this rule. Give your thoughts! :D Stevefis (talk) 17:36, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

The name origin of Wataru Manseibashi

Could somebody add the origin of name Wataru Manseibashi? (The otaku character) Thanks! Stevefis (talk) 17:37, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Someone has already done the job regarding this matter! Thanks Stevefis (talk) 00:32, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Character Page Split?

I think that the character part of the article is taking too much space and I suggest to split the article and make a separate article for detailed descriptions of characters in the Zetsubo sensei. The front page could contain about the 8~10 most frequent characters and their brief description and it could have a link to a character page with more characters and detailed description.Stevefis (talk) 19:05, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

I thought of splitting the character page for a while, but the individual character detail isn't very long yet (avg. 4 lines.) So I don't really know if it's appropriate to split or not. But considering the length of the whole character list, I guess it's really time to split (and expand them later). So if you would like, please do so. —29th ((☎)) 08:03, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't have much experience with splitting an article and I messed up couple of times before. :p If no one is doing it today, I'll consider it though.Stevefis (talk) 18:04, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

The character information, while short for individual characters, is long enough to be collected into a separate page. I could split all that out into Characters of Sayonara Zetsubō Sensei if you don't feel confident doing it yourself. Hewinsj (talk) 18:24, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Nah, it should be List of Sayonara Zetsubō Sensei characters —29th ((☎)) 18:41, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I like yours better. Hewinsj (talk) 18:53, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Yeah Go for it! List of Sayonara Zetsubō Sensei characters:DStevefis (talk) 20:03, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Done. Now the character section (here) needs a paragraph describing the cast as a group rather than individuals. Since the detail has been moved the article should discuss the cast as a whole, or specific key members of it and then if the reader wants more detail they can go to the cast list. Unfortunately I've only seen 2 episodes of the show so I don't know enough about it to write anything significant here. Would someone else mind taking the reigns? Hewinsj (talk) 20:53, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

If we're going to do it like that, might as well keep it under a singular "Plot and characters" header.--十八 23:49, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

The character page split is fine however major characters such as Kafuka and others should have a summary on the main article page. -Vcelloho (talk) 05:21, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Now to define who's the major characters. If we have to put nine major characters on the main page, it would (kind of) defeat the point of page splitting. I suggest: Nozomu, Kafuka, Chiri, Matarō and Abiru or Nami. Chiri is a must because she's a Tsukkomi character. —29th ((☎)) 06:41, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

I think we should stick with Nozomu, Kafuka, and Chiri. There's a clear line between them and the rest, and adding anyone else would just lead to people pointing out that, say, Mataro has less screen time than Harumi. Doceirias (talk) 06:47, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

I would go just with Nozomu and Kafuka. For almost every episodes, it's the Nozomu that sets the theme or topic of the story, and it's always then Kafuka, who counters it with her own positive-sounding argument. Stevefis (talk) 10:49, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Only early on; Chiri ends up countering him far more often. Doceirias (talk) 20:00, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Need New a section for Audio CDs

I think there are four albums of Audio CDs for Zetsubo Sensei. (OP, ED, OST, Character Songs) There is another one (OP/ED) for Zoku Zetsubo Sensei. Like many anime articles in wikipedia, I think the article needs a section for Audio CDs. I'll do some more research before adding the section, but someone else could do it earlier if he or she has sufficient knowledge about it. Thanks!Stevefis (talk) 19:08, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

As far as I know, there're at least two CDs for Zoku (OP/ED1 and ED2/ED3). Two CDs for Sayonara Zetsubō Hōsō and one drama CD. —29th ((☎)) 08:30, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Writing style

The page reads as if it was written by a Japanese English student. Most dishonorable.. Kestasjk (talk) 12:20, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Reather then insult other editors, fix it. --Farix (Talk) 12:39, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Btw, what's the definition of Japanese English student? Japanese students studying in England? Stevefis (talk) 18:21, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

...a Japanese student studying English.—Ｌｏｖｅはドコ？ (talk • contribs) 04:10, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Talking about themes

Since the series is full of themes. How exactly can we add this information without needing sources? I mean the characters themselves represent many social criticism, and the show follows and episodic nature about themes that aren't represented by the characters. I think there should be a mention of these things in the "Plot and setting" section. -- Psi edit (talk) 03:01, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

You need sources. There's no work around for that. Juhachi and I disagreed on this when the page was first created, but I think the Sayonara Zetsubo Sensei Moto Neta Wiki - which appears to be the Kumeta Koji World Wiki, now - would be an excellent source for that sort of thing; it exists to explain the jokes and references the series is making, and the collaborative nature and general professionalism to it makes it look pretty reliable. http://wiki.kumetan.net/ Doceirias (talk) 03:08, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

But couldn't we at least say that the series talks about themes of society? I would. But I don't know how to write it without sounding too technical. -- Psi edit (talk) 03:33, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't think it does; I think it makes fun of the language used to discuss those themes; the target of the humor is the catch phrases and buzzwords of the day, overextending and distorting them, and frequently coining an opposite. Any focus on the actual themes is usually incidental to linguistic humor. Part of why the series is nigh impossible to translate. Doceirias (talk) 04:04, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Opening parodies

what about all those opening parodies that popped up on youtube? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.56.177.153 (talk) 23:12, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Fan made work, probably not notable. Every popular show gets a similar flood. Maybe if you found a really good source article for it, but otherwise... Doceirias (talk) 23:15, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

requesting a separate page for the second season

well i dont know for what reason both the seasons are mashed up together on one page but wouldnt it be better if each season got its own individual page, since even the title changes in the second season as well as there are more audio/visual gimmicks and character development in the second season when compared to the first. maybe the entire summary, plot, media and episode list could be redone for the new season and give the readers some breathing space when moving from one season to another?
also, its rather annoying that when searching for Zoku Sayonara Zetsubo Sensei you end up on a search page rather than the content page... Was†ed(Ag@in) 13:44, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

There's not really any reason to split them. Both anime seasons are based on one manga (which this article covers); it's not like this is a huge page anyway.—Ｌｏｖｅはドコ？ (talk • contribs) 13:46, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Zoku Sayonara Zetsubo Sensei should at least be redirected to it's portion of this article. I'll take care of that shortly. Hewinsj (talk) 14:18, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Bah, somebody beat me to it. Hewinsj (talk) 14:21, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't like using this as an example, but look at Naruto. Naruto: Shippuden is a second series of Naruto anime, yet there is no seperate article for it as they are both from one manga series. I think this logic also applies to Zetsubou sensei manga. Stevefis (talk) 14:19, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Oh well. Atleast the second title doesnt end up on a search page now, after all searching for something you already know is like an.......oxymoron. On a second thought, this series is filled with similar puns and the works. Befitting maybe, well not anymore.Was†ed(Ag@in) (talk) 19:17, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

OP title

I'm a bit curious as to why "人として軸がぶれている" is translated as "As a Person, I am Twisted to the Core". That's not what it means literally, so is it an idiom? A source for this translation would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.--Tally Solleni (talk) 04:14, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

It's an idiomatic usage, and the translation extrapolates the meaning of it from the context of the series and the song lyrics, replacing it with a similar phrase that sounds more natural in English. Doceirias (talk) 20:18, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

The term is also quite incomprehensible to any ordinary Japanese person. I'm quite sure the artist composed the title that way. We shouldn't put 'interpreted' title in the translation, unless there is official american version or it has a specific reference to something else. We should put the 'literal' translation in wikipedia and let the audience (fan) interpret its meaning.Stevefis (talk) 23:49, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Interpretation is a standard part of translation; the literal translation doesn't, to my professional eye, work in English the way it does in Japanese. Either translation is equally accurate, so there is no reason not to default to the one more readers would be familiar with, until such time as the song acquires an official English title. Doceirias (talk) 23:57, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

The expression "人として軸がぶれている" is not commonly used in Japanese, just like its literal English translation does. Besides, the lyrics of OP is not about a person 'twisted to the core', which apparently means the person is corrupted to the core or (literal) rotating around the core, which even makes no sense at all. Rather, the person is shaking or in unstable (vulnerable) position as there is no one supporting his 'axis'; this is literally mentioned in the lyrics if you look at it carefully. The concept of a person shaking to the axis is directly explained in the lyrics. The protagonist of the song also talks about 'shaking of the axis' bringing wave to the world, in which something 'twisted' could not do. Stevefis (talk) 00:08, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

If you really insist on 'interpreted' translation, then find something other than 'twisted to the core'. The term is associated with sickness, corruption, evil, etc. However, the protagonist in the lyrics admires other people's success, possibly mentally unstable, requires support from people around him, and wishes that he could influence the world so that the world can notice him. I'm sure 'twisted to the core' is not appropriate translation for the case. I admit that 'my axis shaking' is not the best translation that we could come up with, but literal translation should be used if suitable interpreted translation could not be found.Stevefis (talk) 00:18, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Please do not lecture me on Japanese; I am actually fluent. (Don't think you intended that tone, sorry I snapped at you.) My point here is that the English title we use doesn't matter, and doing a new translation for the Wikipedia entry is just going to lead to it constantly changing back and forth every time someone sees a different title and assumes it is a mistake. It just seems like a waste of time to constantly revert that sort of thing, in the absence of any sourceable versions. While translation isn't considered original research, I'd say you need to have something stronger than an opinion on your side to justify overriding the popular fan translation. If we want to work up a new translation here, and claim consensus supports it (assuming we do get consensus; the two of us can't decide it on our own) then maybe we could find a better translation for it than the fansub used that we could use instead, but it seems like a lot of work to me of little real benefit to the article as a whole. Doceirias (talk) 00:24, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Thinking about it more, the latter option might be worth doing. Let me think on it a bit. Doceirias (talk) 00:32, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Please refrain yourself from using the experssion "Please do not lecture me on ____" from next time on. This could sound little bit condescending to some wikipedian users, regardless of the topic discussed in the article. I don't really mean to offend you in anyway and I admit that you are a fluent speaker, so please just take it as my personal suggestion. Anyway, I was just not satisfied with the translation "twisted to the core". I hope we could come up with something better. For now, I will just leave the article just as it is until there is a better suggestion. Stevefis (talk) 00:50, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

That's why I crossed it out and apologized. Shame you couldn't simply accept the apology. 'Please refrain yourself' is every bit as condescending. Doceirias (talk) 01:52, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

I didn't see the crossing out while I was writing my edit. Now, I look like the bad guy here. :p OK. Let's stop it for now as we seem be in agreement now. Stevefis (talk) 01:59, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

New OP title translation

Taking into consideration Stevefis' well reasoned arguments on the actual lyrics to the song, I'm pretty sure we can come up with a better translation than the fansubs used. But I feel like the Japanese phrase, while not a set idiom you'd find in any dictionary, is a natural sounding colloquial usage. While a direct translation doesn't work that way in English. I think the first thing to do here is ignore the "hito toshite" bit, since that will never been natural in English (perhaps replace it with "inner.")

• My compass is shaking? We do have the idiomatic idea of an internal compass.
• We could keep the word core, but say rattled instead of twisted.
• Reverse engineering things, in the lyrics, the opposite expression is initially used as a compliment, and he reverses it when he applies it to himself. We could take a look at a few complimentary idioms in English and see if one fits.
• I'll think on it a bit more and see if something else shakes out. Doceirias (talk) 00:43, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Um, how about "All twisted up inside"? That means "I am in general unmoored and in emotional distress" without implying the moral/sanity issue of "twisted" all on its own, and it almost word-for-word matches the literal translation. I'll see if maybe that works better--feel free to revert. Nagakura shin8 (talk) 09:16, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

I like it. Doceirias (talk) 12:49, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Official English title

I was curious as to if Del Rey had chosen an English title yet for this work so I did a quick search of their site to find they had chosen Sayonara, Zetsubou-Sensei. Should we change the article name to this title now, or wait until it gets closer to the manga release date next February?--十八 19:36, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

I say wait for the cover to be finalized. Zetsubou currently fails to match Del Rey's own romanization style (they use ô) so there is a strong possibility it will be changed again. Doceirias (talk) 20:14, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Wait until you can find a cover. If it won't be released to February they have some time to change the title still.Jinnai (talk) 01:46, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Seperate Soundtrack Article?

I want to create a separate article for List of Sayonara Zetsubō Sensei albums. Please give some opinion on it before I begin the process. Stevefis (talk) 00:55, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Spinning off bits of the media section is discouraged. Doceirias (talk) 01:53, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

So what's your suggestion? Should I just make 'soundtrack' subsection in the article?Stevefis (talk) 02:01, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Just to note, there are 2 singles for the first series and other 2 series for the second series of the anime. There is a pair of original soundtrack for each series. Then there is a Zetsubou Sensei Best Album and a Zetsubou Sensei Character Song Album.Stevefis (talk) 02:02, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Look at the WP:MOS-AM; it probably has suggestions. Barring that, look at the Good Articles listed on the project page. Doceirias (talk) 02:36, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the link! (I didn't know about its existence before...) I'll have a look at it. Stevefis (talk) 03:10, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

I've added the contents for the soundtrack section. I will add the lists of tracks for individual album on later on as well as template boxes displaying album information on the right side. Once finished, I think it can be separated from the main article if it is long enoughStevefis (talk) 13:03, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Tracklistings are usually considered excess detail, only added if an album or single meets the music projects notability requirements. Doceirias (talk) 19:15, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

"Changing title translation"

May I ask why? I believe "So Long, Mr Despair" sounds better than "So Long, Professor Despair." Mister is a title used for a professor/teacher, so it would fit and it could also mean it literally (after all, many uses of sensei could be considered equivalents of our "mister"). And, though this is not much of an argument, most fan-translators and people I've encountered use "So Long, Mr Despair" so it seems to be the norm. --12.206.2.162 (talk) 06:41, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Didn't notice the title getting changed. 教授 would be professor, and while you might refer to a university teacher as 先生, you would never refer to a high school teacher as Professor. That translation isn't accurate, so I changed it back to Mr., the standard form of address for teachers in English. Doceirias (talk) 15:59, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Goku?

獄 can be translated as both hell and prison so I was wondering which is the correct one to use? Omimon (talk) 03:38, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Wouldn't hell be 地獄?--十八 03:54, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes, hell would be Jigoku. Actually, from the interview in the official website, the name "Goku" borrowed from Gokusen. —29th ((☎)) 17:44, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

The First Satire Anime?

Is this the first satire anime ever??? Kamuixtv (talk) 09:52, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

That is highly unlikely. --Gwern (contribs) 14:02 12 November 2008 (GMT)

Doubtful, but it is slightly more likely to be the first satire manga series released outside Japan. However, even if it was, that would have to be verified with some kind of WP:V compliant source.Jinnai (talk) 16:17, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Doubt that. I consider Welcome to the NHK a satire anime and that came out earlier and many more works have been made before that one too.Bloodlustkid (talk) 00:42, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Although Keroro Gunso anime series is targeted toward younger audience, it is another type of earlier satire-heavy series. (Its genre is not purely satire, but it has plenty of it)Stevefis (talk) 01:03, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

US manga naming

Since Del Ray has announced their titling for the series, Sayonara, Zetsubou-Sensei and does not appear to be changing it, should we change it per WP:NAME now? They actually have covers for it with the titling, unlike before.じんない 16:43, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Can we put a comma in the title of the article? I just wanna make sure about it before renaming the article. By the way, should we also put the subtitle of the series "Power of the Negative Thinking"? I don't really like the idea of putting that part in the title of the artcle...Stevefis (talk) 18:06, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

There's a ton of articles with commas, so it's not a problem. As for the subtitle, I guess we can put it in the lead, but I don't agree with it going in the article title. I believe I'll go ahead and move it in line with WP:MOS-AM guidelines.--十八 22:14, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

English title

Regarding the recent changes, what rationale are we using for the "literally" translated title, and what should we be using (provide references please). Do "literal" translations follow the translated languages word order (as "Despair Teacher" would exemplify) even when it makes less sense in the target language? Examples I have seen (in order of commonality) include the following (please add anything missed to the list). -- Quiddity (talk) 20:30, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

• So long, Mr. Despair (6,200 googlehits)
• Goodbye, Mr. Despair (1,500 googlehits)
• Goodbye, Despair Teacher (1,400 googlehits (many mentioning it in order to explain that they don't use it, in preference of one of the above. eg))

(Reverted before I saw this discussion, sorry.) Is the Del Rey version giving an English title? Otherwise, I'm not sure we even need to include a translation. If one is done, however, I would prefer to use a more natural English than "Despair Teacher"; "Mr. Despair" accurately conveys the Japanese, and most of the lit. titles provided on Wikipedia try to be as natural as possible while remaining true to the Japanese. Doceirias (talk) 03:19, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

(I've added googlehit counts to the above list. To be taken with a large grain of salt.)

No problem. I hadn't heard that 3rd translation method until I noticed this issue.

Delray uses "Goodbye, Mr. Despair" - [1]

(And just for fun, google-translate believes Shaft calls it "teacher desperate farewell" (!) [2])

We should be looking to Wikipedia:Manual of Style (anime- and manga-related articles) and/or Wikipedia:Manual of Style (Japan-related articles) for guidance. I'm running out the door, so will leave that for someone else to read/summarize... -- Quiddity (talk) 18:29, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Manga Chapters

I noticed there wasn't a separate page for chapters so I've added one. Seems appropriate since the manga is being translated. Grapeofdeath (talk) 06:14, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Third season vs Fourth series

The official site for Zan listed the fourth series as "third season," should we change the article to conform with official declaration? IMO, leaving it as fourth series would led to confusions. —29th ((☎)) 04:29, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Yes, what else would it be? Bonus DVD only episodes don't count as seasons... Doceirias (talk) 04:35, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Wouldn't it be confusing to those in the community who already know Goku as being the third anime installment? Granted, three OVA episodes can't really be called a "season", but it's definitely a different series in it's own right, and even has it's own title; not to mention that we've always referred to the three installments as "series" in this article, not "seasons". And of course most bonus OVA releases aren't given a unique title. If you were going to refer to the fourth series as a third season, what would you then call Goku?--十八 04:37, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

They have been promoting Goku as Season 2.5, as seen in the official website. We can always list it in the article as OAD/OVA anyway. —29th ((☎)) 04:50, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Alright, I'm fine with either of those conclusions.--十八 04:57, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

DVD and TV Differences

Have you seen the DVD of this show? Typical anime DVDs have special features and bonuses (or uncensored for echii titles). But with SZS some scenes are added or changed. One notable is the scene of Chiri Kitsu which was removed when she was walking in the street and talking about how life is unprecise by her own views. Should we take note of the differences? Kamuixtv (talk) 03:49, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Yup. Ideally with a link to a WP:Reliable source stating the differences. -- Quiddity (talk) 17:16, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Urgh, I have bought a DVD from Malaysia and besides that there are no Xtras, the english subs are so horrible, that it's absolutely not understandable. Maybe this is worth mentioning, though despite the shiny official malaysian holo-sticker that says it's an original, I'm not so sure about that anymore… so maybe someone can confirm that? --Aczs (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 13:35, 16 January 2010 (UTC).

You bought an obvious boot-leg.--十八 20:23, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

Zan OVA

Aren't there meant to be two Zan OVAs coming out in the next couple of months? I'm having difficulty finding out anything about them. 86.176.139.193 (talk) 16:39, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

"Zan Sayonara Zetsubou Sensei Bangaichi", links at [3]. Looks like 11/17 and 12/25 release dates, from the official (grrr, flash) site. -- Quiddity (talk) 21:40, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

I bought volume 19 and it says volume 20 with the OVA is available for pre order 12/25/09 but is actually released 2/17/10. Grapeofdeath (talk) 03:45, 22 November 2009 (UTC)