Talk:Sarah Azhari

This article was nominated for deletion on 26 January 2022. The result of the discussion was no consensus.

This page was proposed for deletion by Dan arndt (talk · contribs) on 26 January 2022.

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Sarahazhari2018.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 01:52, 1 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Help with Indonesian language sources

Welcome to any Indonesian-speaking editors. I have invited those in the Category:User id-N who have a minimum of 1,000 edits across all Wikimedia projects. While this is a substantial number of Indonesian-speaking editors, I am hoping that at least a couple of you can help in this effort.

We recently had a drawn-out discussion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sarah Azhari with no consensus. As the closing administrator, Vanamonde noted What a mess. ... The walls of text are long enough to scare most fresh eyes away.

I believe it became evident that as most in that discussion do not speak or read Indonesian, that we we incapable of evaluating the subject's notability. Although many of you User id-N editors edit a lot in English Wikipedia, I would ask those who have not edited extensively at enwiki to review the WP:Notability (people) guidelines, as they may differ from your home Wikipedia.

Not only are we non-Indonesian-speaking editors handicapped in evaluating Indonesian sources, we also have difficulty in finding them. Help!

I think I speak for most editors in proactively thanking you for your input about whether Indonesian language sources establish Azhari's notability or not. Peaceray (talk) 20:50, 11 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Peaceray: Just to give you an impression (as a non-id-N, yet quite proficient in things Indonesian, not only the language). Take I'm a Celebrity...Get Me Out of Here!: see all the blue links of D-list "actors". In the Indonesian context, SA would rank among or slightly above those Brit trash celebs. Most WP:ID editors – whether they are Indonesians or foreigners, from the Indonesian perspective :) – are simply not really interested in this not-so encyclopedic topic range. –Austronesier (talk) 21:57, 11 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I am aware that most Indonesian-oriented edits may be disinterested in Azhari. I, myself, am generally disinterested in sports & beauty queens. Imagine my surprise when I found myself in contention with an edit-warring IP range editor over table colors in association football, cricket, & rugby articles, or my surprise, as part of WikiProject Hawaii, in editing the article of a Miss USA winner (notable for being the first Asian American to win such a tournament) who subsequently moved to Copenhagen & became a film editor for the Danish Broadcasting Corporation.

Sometimes we edit outside of our desired interest areas in our service of Wikipedia. Peaceray (talk) 23:52, 11 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Peaceray: You're absolutely right. Going out of one's box is vital in order to have content assessed from all possible angles. It goes both ways and also includes our contributions being evaluated by other editors who might be less enthusiastic about a topic than we are. As long as it's not obviously dismissable per WP:NOTEVERYTHING, every article here deserves a fair and competent review. And also, I am happy to be totally proven wrong about the interest of Indonesian-oriented editors in this topic. Imagine we had answers of the calibre seen below in the AfD discussion, things would certainly have been easier for the closing admin. –Austronesier (talk) 10:04, 12 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I would say there are enough coverage to keep. Yes, it’s 95% celeb news, but there are occasional “serious” coverage e.g. VoA Indonesia, or the mentions of her sex case in serious books. These plus the endless waves of listicles/celeb interviews would say push her just past GNG. Juxlos (talk) 00:13, 12 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The biggest problem for Sarah Azhari is that she is active in the late 90s, an age where Indonesia doesn't have much Internet. As a younger person back then, she is clearly notable, as she and her sister Ayu Azhari are household names as sex icons for Indonesia. As for sources, I have done some Google News search for her and it turns out that there are no results for her before 2009. But on the other hand, searches against other prominent names such fails to turn up also. In my opinion, this shows that Google News search is not the reliable way to establish notability for Indonesian personality before 2009.

A news search about her around the early 2010s will show that she is a notable actress, despite losing her A-star status she got in the early 2000s. But based on the news, mostly about her scandals, she is still quite famous and notable. Sources are mostly from Merdeka.com or Okezone, both reputable news sources that could withstand WP:RS. She passes WP:GNG easily. SunDawn talk 01:37, 12 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I have caveat because "notable" has no Indonesian equivalent, since there is a word layak or laik which may not an accurate translation. After I check every thread in AfD, the deletion requester(s) may argued that use of most Indonesian sources are discouraged because editorial and fact-checking is not pass standard. However I believe that it is not always apply for all Indonesian-language sources. From WP:BLP: The material should not be added to an article when the only sourcing is tabloid journalism. KapanLagi (mentioned in AfD) is a tabloid journalism, but Liputan6.com (both are owned by Surya Citra Media through its subsidiary KapanLagi Youniverse) is a news reporting. However, Liputan6.com may copy or excerpt every news reporting from KapanLagi. If other ID-N user have their own words, please correct me if I am wrong. RaFaDa20631 (talk) 01:39, 12 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, Google News search before 2009 might not turn up any results, but ordinary Google Search gives these sources from before 31 December 2009:

Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 02:45, 12 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed with you. While I agree we can somewhat diminish kapanlagi.com reliability in reporting, we can't dismiss Liputan6.com or Okezone.com. Your sources also include tempo.co and detik.com, both which are really reliable sources in Indonesia. In reading WP:NOTABILITY in Indonesian words it is more about "terkenal" or "famous" rather than "layak", and I do think that she is very notable. I know this is some original research, but nearly all Indonesians more than 25 years old will have known about her. SunDawn talk 03:12, 12 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I found that there are several sources that are considered not reliable, especially since I just heard about the Tribunnewswiki site. In my opinion, some reliable sources are Kompas.com, detik.com, okezone.com, and cnnindonesia.com. I still questioning the source from Tribun Network (tribunnews.com, tribunlampung, etc). Ronniecoln Loudtiago ^{Let's talk} 04:35, 12 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@SunDawn: I do not suppose there is any print indexing service like Readers' Guide to Periodical Literature available for Indonesian periodicals? Peaceray (talk) 06:04, 12 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I think she is a famous actress in Indonesia, but the article doesn't meet any reliable sources. Adeninasn (talk) 07:19, 16 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

In Indonesia we have what we called "Dewan Pers". Basically it is a council to determine the legitimacy of press offices running on the country. And here is what I found: Fimela, Grid, Correcto, and Kapanlagi arent listed in Dewan Pers. Era.id is somewhat listed though I havent ever heard of it. Tribunnewswiki is most likely a user generated content site. Other than that, the actress actually exists, though in my opinion the acting skill is somewhat mediocre and is only famous because of the bombshell nature of her. Hysocc (talk) 04:17, 12 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

As an Indonesian speaker who was born and lives here to this day, I would like to convey that Sarah Azhari's popularity is still below that of her older sister (Ayu Azhari). But I believe it is very worthy to make an article for her. Of course this is from my point of view, not from a trusted source that is required for verification in the usual way on Wikipedia, although in this case my opinion is to keep the article because she is really exists and quite popular in Indonesia community. Wagino 20100516 (talk) 06:55, 12 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, I'm Akmaie Ajam. I searched Sarah Azhari on Kompas and Detik and scoured through the articles. Here it is. Warning: it is long. (17 Kompas articles and 144 Detik articles from 2005 onwards. In my opinion, this makes this article notable enough. I mean, why delete an article about a subject with 150+ articles about it from reputable sources?) Also, in my opinion, the Tribun source is questionable and citations that link to profile pages should be examined further. This is not a response to Hysocc's opinion. ᐱᔌᕬᐱɭᕮ ᐱᒧᐱᕬ (Talk) 07:40, 12 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Kompas articles

Detik articles

Alright, as a formerly active id-N editor I've been mulling on this case for quite a period since this issue has been recurring on in the Indonesian Wikipedia social hub. I was actually in favor of deleting (but forget to vote) due to the whoever-is-behind-this's battleground attitude (whoever-is-behind-this DMed me regarding this article) but have since then leaning to support keeping the article due to whoever-is-behind-this's more and more convincing arguments (and a bit due to Jéské Couriano's snide remarks). Since Ajam has listed both Kompas and Detik's sources, I'll offer an insight into Kompas and Tempo sources, a much more trustworthy source, since both have existed since the Suharto era and have been banned a few times due to their impartiality.

Kompasdata.id, which is basically a digital repository of the paper Kompas (the much more trustworthy version of Kompas), generates 102 articles with the keyword "Sarah Azhari". Of these articles, three sources discuss her as the sole subject, 15 sources discuss her as the supermajority subject (primarily only her, but other subjects are also mentioned). The rest discusses her in a quite wide range, ranging from her as part of a collective (in which the collective is the main subject of the article) to a mere passing mention.
majalah.tempo.co, the digitized version of the print Tempo magazine, has at least three articles which discuss her as the sole subject. While the digital version talked about her as the sole subject countless times.
I could access kompasdata.id countless times with some "things", but I have to pay some bucks for the majalah.tempo.co subscription. I would pay if and only if the majalah.tempo.co is a gamechanger (the existence of this source would ensure the survivability of the article). If the article could still exist without majalah.tempo.co sources, I'll have to save money for a later occasion. I'll try to post the three sources to a text editor and post the link here as proof of content and would do the other fifteen as requested.

--Regards, Jeromi Mikhael 14:10, 12 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Jeromi Mikhael: I think if you could weave what you can freely access (

) into the article, that would be most helpful. Peaceray (talk) 17:50, 12 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I see that Jeromi Mikhael placed File:Sarah Azhari VOA Interview 2018.jpg into the infobox. This is from a Voice of America (VOA) Indonesia interview:

Umar, Ian (2018-04-11). "Kabar Aktris Model Sarah Azhari dari Los Angeles". VOA Indonesia (in Indonesian). Retrieved 2022-02-12.

There seems to be no transcript available, although there was a link to https://www.voaindonesia.com/a/4343019.html. Perhaps someone who speaks Indonesian can listen to it & decide if there is anything relevant that could be included. VOA would certainly be considered a reliable source. Peaceray (talk) 17:59, 12 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I checked the link and it appears that it is just a page with a title and a "CG" list. No audio available there. However, I think you meant https://www.voaindonesia.com/a/kabar-aktris-model-sarah-azhari-dari-los-angeles/4343039.html (YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9pgFJi2Kqo), in which case it is a video about why Sarah Azhari moved to Los Angeles and what she and her son were doing there. The video also talks about the nostalgia feelings after she took a (back then) 7-year break from the modelling industry and her future plans to return to the entertainment industry (if she returned to Indonesia). ᐱᔌᕬᐱɭᕮ ᐱᒧᐱᕬ (Talk) 05:23, 13 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, the first link that you posted is what I mean by the Umar 2018 citation. Peaceray (talk) 07:23, 13 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

There is a Liputan6 Bio infomation ^[1] that states: Sarah Azhari is a model from Indonesia. The woman who was born on June 16, 1978 is the partner of Pedro Carrascalao. Unlike her sister, (Ayu) who starred a lot, Sarah is more often involved in the modeling world." The article also mentions she started her career as an actress starring in Leaf On A Pillow, (even though it seems to be incomplete since she played both leading roles and starring roles in some productions such as sinetrons and theatrical releases which were of both notoriety and bordeline notoriety). We can't really compare her acting career to the acting career of her sister Ayu and the one of Christine Hakim (both SENIOR ACTRESSES) just like we can't compare the modeling career of Scarlett Johansson to the one of Jaime King. Sarah is prevalently a model with the addition of being a pretty notable actress (and singer). Amoeba69th (talk) 00:41, 13 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ https://www.liputan6.com/tag/sarah-azhari?type=profile

Agree with SunDawn here, she will pass GNG easily. We just need to choose the proper source as Indonesian online media nowadays just write garbage class articles (especially regarding celebrities). I glanced a bit at the links Akmaie Ajam and -sorry, no offense- all of them just not fit for references despite coming from a reputable media. I'd love to help to check any Indonesian articles regarding her but currently I just don't have time for that and to be honest I do not really care that much about her. Griff88 (talk) 06:08, 13 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

My links are partly to demonstrate that this article is notable and partly to provide potential references. Maybe I failed on the latter, but that's alright. I came here because of a message by Peaceray asking me to participate in this discussion. I looked at the discussions and read about SunDawn's comment that sources about her only go to about 2009. After a while, I came back and noticed that Hanif Al Musaini had posted links to articles about her that were uploaded before 31 December 2009. I then searched Kompas and Detik for mentions of Sarah Azhari and found that there were quite a few on Kompas and lots of it on Detik. I also discovered that on Detik, there are articles about her from 2005. ᐱᔌᕬᐱɭᕮ ᐱᒧᐱᕬ (Talk) 07:46, 13 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hi there. I agree with Griff88, I think she is quite notable, especially for Indonesian Wikipedia, and maybe also for Malay, Javanese, Sundanese etc Wikipedias. The Indonesian online magazine & tabloid sources listed above can be used to describe her career, while the more robust sources may (or may not) provide a glimpse of information for her biography. So IMHO - because for English Wikipedia she is less well known - her article should best be only at one or two paragraphs length. Rgds, Naval Scene (talk) 10:47, 14 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Sarah Azhari is a notable person for her existence in entertainment industry in Indonesia. Nevertheless, en-wiki and id-wiki has its own criteria for notable persons to be written in their own pages. I personally have no comment for Sarah's article existence here in en-wiki. Rinto J (talk) 07:01, 15 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

[1] ttps://www.liputan6.com/tag/sarah-azhari?type=profile

[1]