Talk:Sam Mason (American football)

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Sam Mason & Orin Mason -- What up?

[copied from NFL WikiProejct Talk page]

NFL history mystery of the day: We have an article on Sam Mason (American football) who per Pro Football Reference (here) played fullback for the 1922 Minneapolis Marines. Pro Football Archives does not show Sam Mason as being on the 1922 Minneapolis roster but does show an Orin Mason as a fullback on the team. See here. Different dates of birth, etc., but it seems likely that either PFR or PFA has an error as to which Mason played at the fullback position for the 1922 Marines. A standing ovation for whoever is able to resolve this mystery. Cbl62 (talk) 22:24, 3 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This is odd. In my newspapers.com search of the Marines in '22 the only other "Mason" mention besides listing in boxscores is about a player from Utah ([1]). PFR lists him from VMI, and PFA doesn't list any school at all. I've found both people in Ancestry.com with the info listed at the stats websites, but could not find which actually played in the NFL. (BTW I see a "Orin Mason" in Minneapolis who was a handball player here). BeanieFan11 (talk) 22:58, 3 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I found this mention of a Mason in a team photo. I find it interesting that they list whoever this Mason is as a utility back instead of a fullback. I'm still looking for more though. Hey man im josh (talk) 16:54, 4 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you both. Nice photo too. Cbl62 (talk) 17:24, 4 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

FindAGrave for Samuel Anthony Mason and then there's the FindAGrave for Orin Harold Mason (other site listed his middle name as Harild). The FindAGrave link for Sam Mason shows a picture of him in football equipment. In Sam's bio on that site it mentioned he's in the VMI Hall of Fame so I went to look for their Hall. I found his inclusion in their Hall as a charter member (their Hall being founded in 1972). His inclusion helps to verify he did at least play football at VMI, and did so with distinction.

While not a smoking gun, I found this WW1 draft registration card which gives the proper birthday, location, employer & title (VMI as a student). I then found this draft card for WW2 for Sam Anthony Mason. Sam went to a military school so it wouldn't be a surprise if he registered to fight in WW2. The date of birth, birth place, and weight match up while the height is 1" difference (20 years since he had been in the NFL, people can shrink slightly). Hey man im josh (talk) 17:39, 4 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Nice work, josh! Cbl62 (talk) 21:37, 6 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Any luck on Orin Mason? Are we hoping that it's a mistype by somebody? Are we satisfied that Sam Mason is the player that played professionally? It could be worth sending a message to VMI Athletics to see if they'd be able to share any type of record or reason as to why Sam Mason may have been inducted. Typically in inductions like that they'd often reference any type of professional career a player had. At least we were able to verify that Sam Mason was a real person and it's more likely than not him. Hey man im josh (talk) 12:15, 7 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Haven't had a chance to follow up further as of yet. Will copy this discussion to the article talk page for future reference. Cbl62 (talk) 13:26, 18 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Update – 2 1/2 years later

@Cbl62 and Hey man im josh: After two and a half years, in researching another player I came upon a lead for this. The "Mason" who played for the Milwaukee Badgers in 1925 is Orin Mason, not Sam Mason. See here, an article about an all-star team he managed: "The football season in Minneapolis will close with a game between the Liberties, strong professional eleven, and a team of all stars to be recruited by Orin Mason, who last Sunday concluded a season with the Milwaukee team in the American Professional Football league". Still uncertain if he was also the player for the Marines or if that was Sam Mason. BeanieFan11 (talk) 19:26, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've adjusted the article to reflect the ambiguity in sources. I'm open ot other suggestions as well. Cbl62 (talk) 22:07, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Cbl62: I'd suggest remove Badgers, keep Marines (you did the opposite). We know for certain that 'Sam Mason' did not play for the Badgers (Pro Football Archives is correct per the aforementioned source) and Orin Mason did – while its uncertain which played for the Marines in 1922. BeanieFan11 (talk) 22:58, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@BeanieFan11: I'm not understanding your comment. Pro Football Reference says Sam played for the Badgers but not the Marines. I don't see any sources saying he played for the Marines. What am I missing? Cbl62 (talk) 23:16, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

For some reason on PFR it doesn't format it properly – but they do have him as playing with the Marines – see PFR's 1922 Marines roster (and also if you look closely at his stats box on PFR, it says "Mil (1 YR)" referring to the Badgers and then "MIN (1 YR)" referring to the Marines). BeanieFan11 (talk) 23:19, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, Beanie. Player records for the early APFA/NFL are a real mess in some cases. Based on the 1922 roster you've provided, I will re-add Minneapolis to Sam's bio. The newspaper sentence you quoted above is good evidence, but until PFR changes its records, I think the best we can do is to reflect the existing ambiguity on whether or not he also played for Milwaukee. I believe that some editors (User:Jweiss11?) have had success writing to PFR and having them fix their records, if you want to give that a shot. Cbl62 (talk) 23:30, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I've sent in a few corrections to Sports Reference over the years. I think I submitted them at https://www.sports-reference.com/feedback/. Jweiss11 (talk) 23:45, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Man, this is quite the particular mess... Fwiw, if you do verify info, I've had luck sending emails to PFR for corrections. Hey man im josh (talk) 13:27, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]