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Balkh / Wakhsh - difference between Balkh province and Balkh city

  • Per serious Rumi scholars (Franklin, Schimmel and Meier) who meet the highest WP:RS, Rumi was born in Wakhsh which was part of the larger province of Balkh.
  • Currently, the only detailed and up to date full biography of Rumi in any language by a living specialist scholar is the work of Prof. Franklin Lewis that has been translated to many languages.
    • Rumi: Past and Present, East and West. The Life Teachings and Poetry of Jalâl al-Din Rumi. Foreword by Julie Meisami (Oxford: One World Publications, 2000), xvii+686pp. Reprints 2001, 2003. Revised expanded edition, 2007. Awards: British Society for Middle Eastern Studies, British-Kuwaiti Friendship Society for the Best Book in Middle Eastern Studies published in the UK in 2000; Encyclopædia Iranica Foundation, 2001; Saidi-Sirjani Award (Hon. Mention), Society of Iranian Studies, 2004.[1]
    • Book has been translated into several important languages.
  • Professor Lewis has devoted two pages of his book to the topic of Wakhsh, which he states has been identified with the medieval town of Lêwkand (or Lâvakand) or Sangtude, which is about 65 kilometers southeast of Dushanbe, the capital of present-day Tajikistan. He says it is on the east bank of the Vakhshâb river, a major tributary that joins the Amu Daryâ river (also called Jayhun, and named the Oxus by the Greeks). He further states: "Bahâ al-Din may have been born in Balkh, but at least between June 1204 and 1210 (Shavvâl 600 and 607), during which time Rumi was born, Bahâ al-Din resided in a house in Vakhsh (Bah 2:143 [= Bahâ' uddîn Walad's] book, "Ma`ârif."). Vakhsh, rather than Balkh was the permanent base of Bahâ al-Din and his family until Rumi was around five years old (mei 16–35) [= from a book in German by the scholar Fritz Meier--note inserted here]. At that time, in about the year 1212 (A.H. 608–609), the Valads moved to Samarqand (Fih 333; Mei 29–30, 36) [= reference to Rumi's "Discourses" and to Fritz Meier's book--note inserted here], leaving behind Baâ al-Din's mother, who must have been at least seventy-five years old."
  • So when sources talk about him being born in Balkh, they mean the province of Balkh which encompassed parts of modern day Afghanistan and Tajikistan. It is important to note that these scholars have evaludated both Balkh (city) and Vakhsh (city), and reach such a conclusion. In order to have an alternative theory, one needs sources that have evaluated both claims and ruled in favor Balkh (city) (not province). --Vortexion (talk) 12:44, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
  • I should mention though that his father was according to this source from Balkh: Bahāʾ-e Walad followed the profession of preacher and mufti in Balḵ, adhering to the example of his ancestors[2]. But Balkh here could simply mean the wider province (which includes Wakhsh) rather than city of Balkh itself. --Vortexion (talk) 14:40, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

Most beautiful quatrain

Arguably, the most beautiful quatrain in the history of man is where Mevlana says;

"Conceived was I in a pearl's eye,

happy to lie there in the depths of the Ocean,

till, torn by the Hurricane force of life,

I was tossed and turned, thrown upon these shores

where I lay and stirred no more. "

I wish somebody would incorporate this into the article. The punctuation is mine and is from memory and is probably inaccurate. This comes from a book of English translation published before 1961 Unfortunately I do not remember the Author who said the same "Most beautiful ever written"


69.119.172.155 (talk) 16:16, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

It can't be incorporated until you find the source -- either the Divan or the Masnavi. In addition, it's best to have the Persian translation alongside. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.165.244.91 (talk) 07:44, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

In addition, Rumi did not compose quatrains. Your poem is likely a selection or misattributed to Rumi — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.165.244.91 (talk) 07:50, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

A request to correct a misunderstanding. My Master Mewlānā was NOT persian.

Hello. I'm a direct descendant of my master, on maternal side. First of all, let me put forward that, His holiness is an example and a light for all humanity. Now I feel a deep sorrow after reading this article. My master, and humble I, are Turk. I see there are some sources that point the other way. But there are more sources on this issue, which point that His holiness was a Turkish man, born to native Turkish speaking parents. I think the most reliable source is him, and he states that. "Although I've written in Persian, myself is turkish". And to clarify the issue on a deeper pattern, he've not only written in Persian language, but also in Turkish language. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.174.156.142 (talk) 11:23, 8 January 2013 (UTC) Rumi has no such verse..rather he is comparing Hindu and Turkish (not Persian). Please see here: [3]. His son clearly states he does not know Greek and Turkish well, which means RUmi was not Turkish. Also Rumi has only about 50 or so Greek and Turkish verses majority intermixed with his 60,000 Persian verses. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vortexion (talk • contribs) 20:45, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

In addition to this i wanna add this article: http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/default.aspx?pageid=438&n=nationalizing-mevlanas-identity-is-wrong-turkish-academician-said-2011-02-22

In turkish page of Mevlana: There is no detail about his nation but in english it seems persian. Please solve this problem and read the up-article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Serdarekrem (talk • contribs) 20:02, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

The ips that come here usually repeat and never read the archive or other pages here:[4]. Its either some verses which they try to intrepret(Hindu/Tork dichotomy and has its counter-example where RUmi says he is not a Turk which they ignore and all of them not understanding basic Persian poetic imagery of Hindu, Rum, Turk, Zang -see previous link) or claim that "Persian was just the language of literature" (ignoring the everyday lectures, sermons, recorded conversations (e.g. Manaqib) and colloquial style of Rumi which is everyday spoken Persian while he has no lectures, sermons etc. in say Turkish or Greek) or ignoring explicit statements from Rumi's son that his (Sultan Walad)'s knowledge of Greek/Turkish per his won admission was not great and on par with his Persian (and even Arabic).  :[5]
Wikipedia follows Western specialist scholars [6]. Currently, Prof. Franklin Lewis book is the most important authoritative biography of the poet in any language by any living scholar (one needs to do google scholar search and see the many reviews). Specialist to be defined is one that has written scholarly books/articles on Rumi, and knows the original language (Persian) and is affiliated with a major university. So even if Rumi was say African (which he wasn't), Wikipedia just maintains WP:RS and WP:UNDUE based on concensus of sources and scholarship in the field. If they had say African, then it would be that (even if he wasn't). Of course I think there is good reason why he is mentioned Persian (one is being born in Wakhsh in Tajikistan), and the other is that his lectures, sermons and everyday speeches are recorded in Persian, and perhaps another good one is that his son (Sultan Walad) despite living in Anatolia did not know Turkish and Greek too well per his own admission(and RS sources) [7]. Perhaps another reason is this quote: God created the group of Turks so that they would destroy every building they saw, mercilessly and ruthlessly, and cause it to be demolished. (Shams al-Din Aflaki, "The feats of the knowers of God: Manāqeb al-ʻārefīn", translated by John O'Kane, Brill, 2002. pg 503) or Rumi's take on Oghuz Turks in Masnavi.. Culturally, Modern Persian and Turks are close..but to connect to Rumi one still needs the language as poetry is tied to a language.
There are sources specifically stating he is considered Persian in the West which is what WP:RS requires and per this Turkish scholar: No account seems to have been taken of the Turkish and Afghan claims. [8]. And by "account" we mean real WP:RS Rumi scholar account. We need to be fair and represent viewpoints based on top scholarly WP:RS sources (scholars who are serious university affiliates, know the language of Rumi and have written books/articles about him in prestigious journals e.g. Meier, Franklin, Encyclopeadia of Islam..). Perhaps 50 years from now, new evidence emerges that he was African and opinions changes and etc. But till then, what is the majority and mainstream is just reflected in Wikipedia (and it is not a debate club).. --Vortexion (talk) 12:48, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

Indeed. Pan-Turks only thing he is Turkish because he was born in the Seljuk Empire. You couldn't be more false. According to you, if an Indian was born during the British Imperium in India, he was considered a British man? Get real! LouisAragon (talk) 19:10, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

I bet you dont know anything about Turkic history then, the place where Rumi was born (Balkh, Khorasan) was inhabited by Turkmen tribes at the time, there are still a lot of Turkmens living in Iran and Afghanistan, all Persians right? Get real! Rumi wasnt born in Vakhsh, this whole article is infected with Persian propaganda just to cover Rumi his real ethnicity, pathetic Redman19 (talk) 17:26, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Its funny how Iran tries to claim Rumi while he spent most of his life on Turkish soil and also died there, you have no right, never will either Redman19 (talk) 17:36, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

The Turkish people deserve better representatives than you. Instead of acting like a child on a wikipedia talk page, why don't you try engaging in an intellectual conversation/debate for once? The editors have paid you and others like you the respect and courtesy you deserve by reading your arguments (which amount to sheer ignorance in my opinion) and responding to them by offering counter examples. It is obvious you are not interested in finding out the truth. You are only looking to stroke yourself and your nationalistic ego by throwing out childish comments like "oh you're all so wrong, we don't even need to offer any counter arguments because the truth is so obvious to anyone who is familiar with his Holiness." Poor Rumi. Sure he wouldn't like his nationality to be such a controversial issue but how would he feel about some of these idiots who understand so little but act as if they are so well informed? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ditc (talk • contribs) 05:19, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

Birth place of Rumi

Maulana Rumi was Born in Balkh(Modern day Afghanistan) and not in Wakhsh(Tajikistan)

180.178.164.40 (talk) 09:24, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

Not done: please see the references, especially footnote 3. --Stfg (talk) 10:02, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

Untitled

Put

Part of a series on Islam
Sufism
Tomb of Abdul Qadir Gilani, Baghdad, Iraq
Ideas
Practices
Sufi orders
List of sufis
Topics in Sufism
Islam portal

before TEACHINGS

128.164.157.184 (talk) 00:55, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

Authorship

Under 5. Philosophical Outlook, there is a poem quoted, but it is unclear who the author is. It doesn't look like Rumi. Is it by Al Farabi or Ibn Sina, just mentioned before the poem? Clarification will be appreciated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Iannoone (talk • contribs) 16:14, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Authorship

Iannoone (talk) 16:18, 12 April 2014 (UTC) Under 5. Philosophical Outlook, there is a poem quoted, but it is unclear who the author is. It doesn't look like Rumi. Is it by Al Farabi or Ibn Sina, just mentioned before the poem? Clarification will be appreciated.

Rumi expert, Maryam Mafi, has published numerous translations but has not been cited or referenced in any part of the Wikipedia article on Rumi. Can this be corrected? Her website, listing her publications, is http://maryammafi.com/maryammafi/poem.html

Mmeddin (talk) 16:09, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

Hi Mmeddin. Do you have any independent sources describing Mafi as an expert on Rumi? --NeilN talk to me 16:20, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

Add link to Swedish translation? https://www.facebook.com/RumiSverige

OLaVie — Preceding unsigned comment added by OLaVie (talk • contribs) 08:25, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 September 2014

Please change "Chicago University" to "University of Chicago" because that is the correct name -- see [[9]]. Whitaksm (talk) 18:52, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Done https://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=Rumi&diff=624571762&oldid=623796010 Cannolis (talk) 23:05, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Pronunciation & Meaning - Nickname / nom de plume / AKA

Rue Me
"Ru" Farsi for face
"mi" which means hair in the irans
Thunderfence1 (talk) 21:39, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

No reference

This bit adds nothing to the article and should be removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.84.68.252 (talk) 02:38, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

Georgian Queen Gürcü Hatun was a patron and a close friend of Rumi. She was the one who sponsored the construction of his tomb in Konya.[43] The 13th century Mevlâna Mausoleum, with its mosque, dance hall, dervish living quarters, school and tombs of some leaders of the Mevlevi Order, continues to this day to draw pilgrims from all parts of the Muslim and non-Muslim world. Jalal al-Din who is also known as Rumi, was a philosopher and mystic of Islam. His doctrine advocates unlimited tolerance, positive reasoning, goodness, charity and awareness through love. To him and to his disciples all religions are more or less truth. Looking with the same eye on Muslim, Jew and Christian alike, his peaceful and tolerant teaching has appealed to people of all sects and creeds. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.84.68.252 (talk) 02:35, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

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External links content to be put into article prose?

On Rumi

@SheriffIsInTown: Hello, can we please discuss why you feel these are appropriate External Links? My understanding is that they should be used sparingly and only for specific purposes. I don't feel that these external links meet the criteria though the content should be incorporated into the article. Thanks, ツStacey (talk) 20:15, 26 December 2015 (UTC)
I don't see anything in Wikipedia:External links which prohibits these links to be included, these links are about the subject of the article and I don't think there is any reason to remove them. Why do you think that they should be removed? Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 21:42, 26 December 2015 (UTC)
@SheriffIsInTown: I hope this will ease your concerns that I am making drastic changes - please see bold text above to show my concerns about the links used. ツStacey (talk) 18:34, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 February 2016

Hamimoaf (talk) 03:34, 11 February 2016 (UTC) 50 % of this rumi wiki p its not right, because here explain him more turkish than persian on the first look reader think he was a turkish.

Not done: as you have not requested a specific change in the form "Please replace XXX with YYY" or "Please add ZZZ between PPP and QQQ".
More importantly, you have not cited reliable sources to back up your request, without which no information should be added to, or changed in, any article. - Arjayay (talk) 10:30, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

Rumi's maternal descent

Rumi's paternal great grandmother's name was "Abu-bakr", and he was not a descent of the first Sunni Caliph, Abu Bakr, as recently an edit says. We read in the article's 38th reference/footnote ([bold section is mine]): "Franklin Lewis, Rumi Past and Present, East and West, Oneworld Publications, 2008 (revised edition). pp. 90–92: "Baha al-Din’s disciples also traced his family lineage to the first caliph, Abu Bakr (Sep 9; Af 7; JNO 457; Dow 213). This probably stems from willful confusion over his paternal great grandmother, who was the daughter of Abu Bakr of Sarakhs, a noted jurist (d. 1090). The most complete genealogy offered for family stretches back only six or seven generations and cannot reach to Abu Bakr, the companion and first caliph of the Prophet, who died two years after the Prophet, in C.E. 634 (FB 5–6 n.3)." – Hamid Hassani (talk) 18:57, 22 June 2016 (UTC)

The concept which I discussed above, has been corrected by Wario-Man via reverting. – Hamid Hassani (talk) 19:06, 22 June 2016 (UTC)

Greeks are not muslims.

Greeks iranians turks ... other c.asian muslims etc.... Well Greeks are not muslims. They never were. Kindly amend. Vastyr81 (talk) 04:45, 30 June 2016 (UTC)

Greek Muslims Mlewan (talk) 11:36, 30 June 2016 (UTC)
This is the funniest interaction on Wikipedia :) Alexis Ivanov (talk) 22:37, 30 June 2016 (UTC)

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Not Khorasan but Tokharistan

Rumi was born in Balkh major city of Tokharistan, which is Eastern Khorasan and below the Amu Darya river Alexis Ivanov (talk) 22:42, 30 June 2016 (UTC)

Not done: as you have not cited reliable sources to back up your request, without which no information should be added to, or changed in, any article. - Arjayay (talk) 14:35, 17 August 2016 (UTC)
This is a known information with anybody acquainted with the history of Greater Iran. It was like saying Paris, France instead of Paris, Germany. But I will get you the source later on Alexis Ivanov (talk) 19:25, 17 August 2016 (UTC)
First, let me ping @HistoryofIran:, @Kouhi: and @LouisAragon:, the users who are familiar with this topic. I reverted your edit. But then I decide to remove Khorasan too. Check both Bactria (Tokharistan redirects there) and Greater Khorasan. In my opinion, we can't prefer Khorasan to Tokharistan or vice versa. Because Balkh was/is a part of both of those regions. --Wario-Man (talk) 06:26, 9 October 2016 (UTC)
"Khorasan" is mentioned as the birthplace of Rumi in this book:
  • Franklin D. Lewis (18 October 2014). Rumi - Past and Present, East and West: The Life, Teachings, and Poetry of Jalal al-Din Rumi. Oneworld Publications. pp. 67–. ISBN 978-1-78074-737-8.
I think Khorasan is better, because first, we should be loyal to the source, second, Khorasan was and is a much more widely-used term, both in Rumi's era and today, third, Khorasan is big enough to cover Wakhsh in Tajikestan (though some may argue that Wakhsh is in Sogdia, but Khorasan was a general term for eastern parts of Greater Iran), but Tokharestan is a vague term and it is not very clear that what cities were known to be in Tokharestan, and last but not least, Rumi is known to be a Khorasani poet, not a Tokhristani poet. -- Kouhi (talk) 08:38, 9 October 2016 (UTC)

Ethnicity: Afghan

Rumi was born in Afghanistan, hence it should be corrected here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Masoudsafi (talk • contribs) 04:17, 8 October 2016 (UTC)

 Not done Because his ethnicity/background is correct. We don't use modern demonyms for ancient/medieval people, e.g. Afghan or Iranian. Plus, did you check cited sources? He may was born in Tajikistan. --Wario-Man (talk) 06:42, 9 October 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 November 2016

Name should be changed from Rumi to Jalāl ad-Dīn Muhammad Rūmī, Rumi is not his name rather it is the name of where he lived 79.75.44.118 (talk) 14:25, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

Not done: See WP:RM — JJMC89 (T·C) 04:48, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 October 2016

His poetry has influenced Persian literature, but also Turkish, Ottoman Turkish, Azerbaijani, as well as the literature of some other Turkic, Iranian, and Indo-Aryan languages including Chagatai, Pashto, and Bengali. Kindly remove chagatai from the group aforementioned as it is not an indo-aryan or even iranian language but belongs to turkic languages,sort of ösbek. Otherwise an excellent and well wrought piece. Pax — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ekos5isko (talk • contribs) 18:05, 21 October 2016 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. — Andy W. (talk) 01:03, 4 November 2016 (UTC)

Resting place

How can his resting place be the Sultanate of Rum while is tomb is located in what we call now Turkey? someone explain please Redman19 (talk) 14:11, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

It's common on articles about pre-modern people but we usually clarify birth/death place in the "Life" section, e.g. adding modern/current name of region or country. --Wario-Man (talk) 23:33, 5 January 2017 (UTC)

Mevlevi order appears much later after his death

I think the sources quoted for the assertion that the Mevlevi order was founded right after his death in 1273 are not reliable. I have found no real evidence that the Mevlevi cult appeared earlier than the 1300s. Except that is, according to their own assertions--Wool Bridge (talk) 12:07, 19 January 2017 (UTC)

Ethnicity: Turk

Some sources claim Rumi to be a Turk. It should've been noted, since Rumi's ethnicity is a matter of discussion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 176.40.138.1 (talk) 19:29, 15 April 2017 (UTC)

Not really. Read the top of this page and previous discussions (archives):
A consensus has been reached on this talkpage that Rumi has a Persian heritage. This has been based solely on reliable sources indicating the linkage of the historical situation of his birthplace and native language with Persian culture. Before reopening the debate on his ethnicity editors are requested to go through wikipedia's policies outlined at WP:V, WP:weight, WP:RS as well as read the archives where many of the same polemics are repeated. Specifically, modern authoritative biographies of Rumi such as that of Prof. Franklin Lewis, or google books/scholars for the most common frequent terms such as "Persian poet Rumi" and "Persian mystic Rumi". --Wario-Man (talk) 05:04, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

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Religious outlook

The quotes inserted under this header, do they not count as original research? Does Wiki policy not require editors to quote or draw on the secondary literature and not the original source, in this case Rumi's poetry? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.27.88.67 (talk) 19:21, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

Iranian world

Should expand this section and add more names to the list of Iranian Rumi scholars. Since it was the language that he wrote his poetry in, Persian speaking scholars and ordinary readers are going to be the ones who have a better grasp of the meaning of his poetry. I have discussed his work with Turkish and Arab people, some did not read his work but have heard his name, but the Persians who I encountered all seemed to have read him and grasped his poetry. This should not be a controversial point. After all the English grasp Shakespeare's work better than most people in the world, ditto the Germans and Goethe, Russians and Tolstoy, etc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.27.88.67 (talk) 19:33, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

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Persian vs Tajik-Persian heritage

Given that it is conclusive through the community's research that Rumi was born in either present-day Afghanistan or present-day Tajikistan, would it make sense to call him a Tajik like some other Eastern Iranian Persians from Sogdian ancestry? There are records of his father using local Sogdian words in conversational Persian, strongly indicating an Eastern Persian/Tajik ancestry.[1] Wikipedia has a few pages indicating that some Eastern Persians from this time period are Tajik, while others just vaguely state the pan "Persian" identity. I'm not sure of the exact rule or logic concerning the naming convention, but feel it should be more consistently done to maintain true neutrality throughout the website. It's also confusing for the layman to discern why and when an Eastern Iranian Persian is labeled Tajik vs just Persian (or they would erroneously conclude that Persian may just mean Persian stock from present-day Iran as the link will just lead people to the Iranian Persian page by default. This appears to be at least somewhat of a bias towards present-day Iran and their nationalism.) Jamaas9 (talk) 22:06, 2 June 2018 (UTC) .


FYI, Kaveh Farrokh is not an historian, so he is not a reliable source. I would suggest reading Wikipedia:Reliable sources.
  • " I'm not sure of the exact rule or logic concerning the naming convention.."
Wikipedia is written using reliable sources. --Kansas Bear (talk) 22:58, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for the link, I understand he may not be the best source; however, isn't there enough reliable sources to put Rumi squarely as an Eastern Iranian Persian (modern Tajik), the article clearly states that he is native to what is considered now the modern-day Tajik's homeland? There has been no known historical mass migration that would have indicated he is of Western Iranian/Persian (modern Persian) identity. Again, to remain neutral, what is considered a Tajik vs Persian? If an Eastern Iranian Persian was born in what is considered the historical homeland of the Tajiks, and was native to that part of the Iran-zamon -- by definition, isn't that part of modern Tajik culture, identity, ethnicity etc etc? A synonym for Tajiks is still Persian, so ultimately, it may not matter too much in pure academia but it does for political purposes as Tajiks experience cultural repression in both Uzbekistan and to a lesser degree, Afghanistan. Dividing Eastern Iranian Persians and Western Iranian Persians to two distinct groups on the website (which is correct), but having no connection to Tajiks on his page while stating his Eastern Iranian origins appear biased in favour of present-day Iran and a bias against the Eastern Persians (Tajiks) native to Balkh and other parts of their homeland. Jamaas9 (talk) 17:35, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

Read WP:OR. We don't add our personal opinions to WP articles. --Wario-Man (talk) 17:53, 3 June 2018 (UTC)
My initial impression is that the lede of Persian people excludes Tajiks. If that so, then Jamaas9 has a valid point. We don't have reliable sources that say "Rumi was not a Tajik". Thus we should avoid making that claim implicitly using links. Wiqi(55) 19:53, 3 June 2018 (UTC)
How the lead of that article excludes "Tajik" when 4th paragraph is about it? Especially this line:
"However, it is to be noted that the terms Tajik, Tat, and Persian were historically synonyms that were used interchangeably"
And if you read Tajiks and this, there are more details about historical usage of Tajik. Short version: Tajik = Persian, Persian-speaking in that era. If we decide to follow Jamaas9's personal analysis, then the unsourced term Tajik would appear in dozens of articles. Even we can call all medieval Persians as Tajik (per mentioned links). From Avicenna to Rhazes. Jamaas9's concern is more personal than encyclopedic because it's all about their personal interpretation of "Persian". Another point is we can't invent terms and backgrounds on WP. It's all about WP:RS. --Wario-Man (talk) 06:07, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
I suggest you look again at Persian people. Tajiks are excluded from the template and first line where only Iran (the country) is listed. I would expect to find multiple Central Asian countries in addition to Iran, similar to the template in Tajiks. Perhaps that's not the case because Tajiks are linguistically/ethnically distinct from Iranian Persians? For Rumi, a link to Persian language would be inline with wp:nor, because other details of his ethnicity are not explicitly stated by any of the cited sources. Wiqi(55) 09:09, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
Just NO. Now you refer to the first paragraph of a WP article and a template?! Ignoring the whole content of Persian people, Tajiks, and historical usage of Persian/Tajik?! You looked at Tajiks but you didn't you see this?!
  • Alternative names for the Tajiks are Fārsī (Persian), Fārsīwān (Persian-speaker), and Dīhgān (cf. Tajik: Деҳқон) literally "farmer or settled villager", in a wider sense "settled" in contrast to "nomadic" and also described as a class of land-owning magnates during the Sassanid and early Islamic period).
By similar logic like yours, I can refer to Iranian peoples and Template:Iranian peoples and saying something like this: "OK! Lets' change all Persian, Kurd, Pashtun, and the others to Iranian. Because Iranian covers all of them!" What you suggest (Persian people => Persian language) is actually WP:POV, plus ignoring sourced info and previous discussions. It's like going to List of pre-modern Arab scientists and scholars and changing Arab to Arabic language. Also you try to bring irredentism and anachronism by your very personal definition of Persian and limiting it to the a modern country named Iran. We're talking about a medieval scholar, and "Persian" is what historians used to describe background and ethnicity of Rumi. I think you didn't read my above comment and the message in the top box:
  • "A consensus has been reached on this talk page that Rumi has a Persian heritage. The consensus is based entirely on reliable sources that establish his birthplace and native language within a Persian cultural-historical context. Before reopening a debate on Rumi's ethnicity, please read WP:V, WP:Weight, and WP:RS, as well as Talk:Rumi/Rumi's heritage. See also modern, authoritative biographies of Rumi, such as that of Professor Franklin Lewis, and note the relative ubiquity of such descriptions as "Persian poet Rumi" and "Persian mystic Rumi" in Google Books and Google Scholar sources."
The points are clear. The current revision is a result of reliable sources and discussions by several users and what you want to insert is your own personal analysis. --Wario-Man (talk) 13:44, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

No, I’ve noticed that at least of the references oddly is quoted correctly to disprove his Turk background in the historical Talk page (the reference correctly stated he was from Central Asia, which the modern Tajik’s homeland, not Iranian Persian that includes the Western Asian population) background on the talk page, signaling a specific Central Asian/Tajik background but it’s misqouted on the actual article to assert of more generic Persian identity (“Central Asia” turned into just “Asia”). I don’t think that’s a personal interpretation as to change “Central Asia” to “asia” while asserting that Rumi first belongs to the Persians of Iran first, which implicitly states he belongs to Modern Iranian’s more so than his own Central Asian native persian speaking Iranians. Misquoting a reliable source to hide his Central Asian roots and rather assert a generic “Asian” identity is unethical if done intentionally, and by nature, supports a personal POV as it’s deceptive. Right now, the article implicitly states that Rumi belongs to first the modern Persians of Iran and utilizing misqoutes as reference which is unacademic, antiintellectual, and promote a personal POV that Central Asian Rumi first belongs to the Western Asian Persian followed by his own Central Asian Persians. This promotes a specific POV. Either way, we can’t misquote people. This article should be reviewed and revised accordingly. I’ll follow up with the quotes when I get off mobile. Jamaas9 (talk) 13:33, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

Also, respectfully, you are either misunderstanding me or misinterpreting what I am saying, I am not going by any historical definition as anyone who studies Iranology understands Tajik = Iranian = Persian (historically). I am using modern definitions of the different Persian ethnicities that is utilized in Wikipedia to remain consistent and fair. Persians outside of Iran are referred to Tajiks if from Central Asia/Afghanistan as per Wikipedia articles and reliable sources. This article lists Rumi to belonging both to the modern Western Asian Persian ethnicity as his ethnicity and NOT Central Asian Persians, and furthermore lists them second to which ethnic groups consider him more important for their cultural identity. This neither impartial nor fair, as it at least implicitly (if not explicitly) states he belongs less to the Persians who are his direct decedents and more to Western Persians who are more distant from him. The article asserts this using at least one misquote. I’m trying to make sure this article is fair, accurate, and not promoting a specific nationalistic POV. Right now, it looks it does — especially with the misquote. Jamaas9 (talk) 13:54, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

I understand your points but seriously they are not related to this article. You should go to Persian people and suggest a new lead section for that article, e.g. more details, historical usages, and clarification about Persians outside of modern Iran (Central Asia, Afghanistan and etc). That's all. --Wario-Man (talk) 14:04, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

I agree that much of my discussion is more relevant to the Persian page as this affects more figure than just Rumi. However, we can clean up this page including misqoute(s). Some of my points are still relevant to this specific article, and this discussion is highlighting biases (intentional or not) regarding this Rumi article. Again, why are Tajiks listed as second in when listing which modern ethnicities consider him important? Tajiks should either be listed first (like how western Iranians should alway be listed first for western Persian figures like Saadi/Hafez) or it should clearly state that he equally belongs to all modern native Persian speaking Iranians ethnicities such as Central Asian Tajiks, Western Asian Persians, etc. Modern Tajiks/Eastern Persians have the right to correspond most closely to their direct eastern Iranian Persian ancestors if we are going to divide the Persian ethnicity. Otherwise, this is biased and a form of cultural repression to Central Asian Persians/Tajiks, which happens politically in real life -- this is referenced using reliable on this website as well. Wikipedia should be impartial/fair and not engage in such biases. The only other fair alternative is significantly alter the general Persian page to make sure there absolutely no bias against Persians outside of present-day Iran. Right now, that page presents and focuses on the Persian ethnicity through mostly a modern Iranian (nationalistic) lense. Jamaas9 (talk) 15:15, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

Same story as usual: "I want to take pride in ethnicity/historic figure/dynasty/empire X so I'll just write as much personal opinions as I can in order to wear others down, disregard any source that refutes what I would like to see, and push the POV I want". WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS, WP:FORUM, and WP:JDL. Nothing more, nothing less. Bring clear WP:RS sources and concrete arguments. - LouisAragon (talk) 18:51, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

You are accusing me of pushing a narrative when I am simply reporting that there is a misquote from reliable sources on this page that changes the meaning and context of the quote for the benefit of Persians in present-day Iran and creates a bias against Central Asian Persians. The quote was referenced correctly in the historical Talk multiple times when disproving Rumi as a Turk -- so I hope it can be corrected.

It's referred incorrectly (reference 7), omitting a key word that does change the meaning of the text in context of Western vs Eastern Persians (Tajiks) :

Franklin D. Lewis, "Rumi: Past and Present, East and West: The life, Teaching and poetry of Jalal Al-Din Rumi", Oneworld Publication Limited, 2008 p. 9: "How is that a Persian boy born almost eight hundred years ago in Khorasan, the northeastern province of greater Iran, in a region that we identify today as in Asia, but was considered in those days as part of the greater Persian cultural sphere, wound up in central Anatolia on the receding edge of the Byzantine cultural sphere"

The actual book (I have a physical copy) say this:

Franklin D. Lewis, "Rumi: Past and Present, East and West: The life, Teaching and poetry of Jalal Al-Din Rumi", Oneworld Publication Limited, 2008 p. 9: "How is that a Persian boy born almost eight hundred years ago in Khorasan, the northeastern province of greater Iran, in a region that we identify today as in Central Asia, but was considered in those days as part of the greater Persian cultural sphere, wound up in central Anatolia on the receding edge of the Byzantine cultural sphere"

The tendentious page also states: "First and foremost, however bad you believe the faults of your accusers are, think long and hard about your own behaviour. Critique it in your mind with the same vigor you critique theirs. Is there not at least a germ of truth in what they say? Have you perhaps been less civil than you should have been? "

Respectfully, why don't you address my actual point, rather than say I am pushing a specific narrative? If there any sources refuting that Rumi was born in either to a native Persian-speaking family in the present-day Balkh region of Afghanistan or Tajikistan (both Central Asia) -- please let me know. I have no goal to push a narrative, and sincerely apologize if I am.

Specifically, I think we should correct the misquote. Given that multiple reliable western sources (Rumi scholars) have stated that Rumi was from Central Asia, including Lewis, I suggest that we edit the beginning the article to state: "...was a 13th-century Persian[1] Sunni[8] Muslim poet, jurist, Islamic scholar, theologian, and Sufi mystic originally from Central Asia[2].[9]

Or we could add an inclusion regarding being from Greater Khurosan as well. What does everyone think? If necessary, I can provide more reliable sources from Rumi scholars that squarely puts him present-day Tajik's homeland, but this has already been established and accepted by mainstream academia and experts.

Jamaas9 (talk) 20:44, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

I can't think of any policy-based objections to the above. So I fixed the quote [11] and added "originally from Central Asia" to the lede. [12]. Wiqi(55) 14:49, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
Central Asia is not specific and it includes 5 countries and sometimes other regions from Afghanistan, China, Iran, and Mongolia. Historical region is more accurate so I will change it to Greater Khorasan which also matches the quoted text and Template:People of Khorasan. --Wario-Man (talk) 15:00, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
The quote by Franklin D. Lewis uses "Central Asia". Do you have a source describing the origin of Rumi as "Greater Khorasan"? Wiqi(55) 15:17, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
This is the quote. Khorasan is there: Franklin D. Lewis, "Rumi: Past and Present, East and West: The life, Teaching and poetry of Jalal Al-Din Rumi", Oneworld Publication Limited, 2008 p. 9: "How is that a Persian boy born almost eight hundred years ago in Khorasan, the northeastern province of greater Iran, in a region that we identify today as in Central Asia, but was considered in those days as part of the greater Persian cultural sphere, wound up in central Anatolia on the receding edge of the Byzantine cultural sphere, in what is now Turkey, some 1,500 miles to the west?" FYI, Khorasan = Greater Khorasan. As I said Central Asia is generic, especially for a medieval person. See Central_Asia#See_also. There was several historical regions there. Lewis mentioned Khorasan and it's more accurate to use a specific historical region rather than a term like CA. Also we don't use West Asia or Middle East in similar articles. Even majority of those articles never mention region or city in their lead sections. --Wario-Man (talk) 15:41, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

What about calling him "Khorasani Persian" in the lede instead considering that would be the most specific and accurate historical label for his ethnicity? "Khorasani"can link to Greater Khorasani and not the modern present-day provinces in Iran Jamaas9 (talk) 15:07, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

Your suggestion falls in WP:OR again because no cited sources call him "Khorasani" or "Khorasani Persian". Also nobody considers Rumi as a someone from modern Iran. The infobox and section Life clarify his birth and death places. I can add Afghanistan, Tajikistan and Turkey to infobox. As I said your concerns are not really related to this article. You should take them to Persian people. --Wario-Man (talk) 15:54, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
Some established facts about Iranian peoples : There is a confusion between having Iranian citizenship and being ethnically Iranian. As Wario-Man said, nobody says Rumi was an Iranian citizen, but the fact that he was an ethnic Persian is quite undisputed. Also, Tajiks are ethnic Persians (BTW, it seems that the word "Tajik" was introduced to qualify Sunni Persians, but i'm not sure of this and am investigating about), just as people who speak Dari in Afghanistan are Persians, no need to get under WP:OR by changing what sources say according to some editor's POV. Best regards.---Wikaviani (talk) 16:24, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
Tajik has nothing to do with religion. --Wario-Man (talk) 16:35, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
Effectively, i think you're right, i have not been able to find any reliable material about this. Thanks for your insight.---Wikaviani (talk) 17:11, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
I believe, when referring to Iranian Nationals (modern nationality, not ethnolinguistic group) of Persian descent, the term Tajik does refer to specifically to Sunni Persians in the Khorosan Provinces that never converted to Shia Islam. They are referred to as Tajiks by other Shia Persians as a mark of distinction, so Wikaviani is not completely wrong. You should be able to find this information on some western sources, including this website. Personally, I have never seen this from the Persian sources that I am most familiar with so I am looking to double check this as well. Outside of this context, Tajik isn't utilized to designate any specific religious sect. Anyway, as Wario mentioned, I will be taking the rest of my points to the Persian page to help improve that page. This discussion has been helpful, and I appreciate you all helping me understand how better contribute to the Wikipedia community! --Jamaas9 (talk) 18:27, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ https://kavehfarrokh.com/articles/pan-turanism/bahram-shahnazar-notes-on-rumis-iranian-origins/
  2. ^ Franklin D. Lewis, "Rumi: Past and Present, East and West: The life, Teaching and poetry of Jalal Al-Din Rumi", Oneworld Publication Limited, 2008 p. 9: "How is that a Persian boy born almost eight hundred years ago in Khorasan, the northeastern province of greater Iran, in a region that we identify today as in Central Asia, but was considered in those days as part of the greater Persian cultural sphere, wound up in central Anatolia on the receding edge of the Byzantine cultural sphere"

Sources for the name Balkhi?

Are there any non-contemporary sources that use the nisba Balkhi for Maulana? Every manuscript of Maulana and his son Sultan Walad use the nisba Rumi, Maulana's great biographer Aflāki in his Manāqib ul-Ārifīn uses the nisba Rumi.

Are there any classical sources that use the nisba Balkhi? ahassan05

"Al-Balkhi" is mentioned by Faridun b. Ahmad Sipahsalar: [13]. The name is given in Arabic as Muhammad bin Muhammad bin al-Husayn al-Khatibi al-Balakhi al-Bakri. I think we should add Rumi's full name to the article citing his earliest biographies. Wiqi(55) 19:24, 22 July 2018 (UTC)

Chagatai and Pashto aren't Indo Aryan languages

The Introduction passage ends with:

His poetry has influenced not only Persian literature, but also Turkish, Ottoman Turkish, Azerbaijani, as well as the literature of some other Turkic, Iranian, and Indo-Aryan languages including Chagatai, Urdu and Pashto.

The last line is inaccurate. Chagatai is a Turkic language and Pashto (While Indo-European) is an Indo-Iranian language, not Indo-Aryan.

Semi-protected edit request on 23 August 2018

This line at the end of the second paragraph cries out "puffery":

A deep grasp of his original poetry requires excellent command of modern Persian, and an equally good command of Islamic prophetic traditions, and the Qur'an. With such command, one may succeed in peeling back the multitude layers of meaning.

It should be removed. 108.34.206.74 (talk) 00:05, 23 August 2018 (UTC)

 Done (in accordance with WP:NPOV). —Ringbang (talk) 00:21, 23 August 2018 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 18:10, 18 September 2018 (UTC)

Origin and Attribution of Quotation "Come, come, whoever you are, Wanderer, idolater, worshiper of fire, Come even though you have broken your vows a thousand times, Come, and come yet again. Ours is not a caravan of despair.[98]"

The page for

Jalāl ad-Dīn Muhammad Rūmī (Mevlânâ)


contains a quotation

"Come, come, whoever you are, Wanderer, idolater, worshiper of fire, Come even though you have broken your vows a thousand times, Come, and come yet again. Ours is not a caravan of despair.[98]"

The attribution it uses is listed as 

Hanut, Eryk (2000). Rumi: The Card and Book Pack : Meditation, Inspiration, Self-discovery. The Rumi Card Book. Tuttle Publishing. xiii. ISBN 978-1-885203-95-3.

https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Rumi#cite_note-98

This does not seem like a sufficient source for a quotation. Additionally, the veracity of this work is not available online. Is there a better primary or scholarly source verifying that this has been written by Jalāl ad-Dīn Muhammad Rūmī (Mevlânâ). I do not think that 'The Rumi Card Book' is a verifiable or trusted source, also it points to a copy of the work that is commercial. Considering that the work should be in public domain, there should be plenty of sources pointing to the origin of this quote on the level of public copies of other famous work.

Where is the verifiable proof that Rumi has written this work, besides the lack of public domain evidence and belief of attribution, and where is the non-commercial source that will point to the full text and a trustworthy source?


This concern has been brought up before on Talk:Rumi and has remained unaddressed:


"The poem beginning in English "Come, Come whoever you are..." is not a poem by Mevlana Rumi. As such it should be stricken from the WikiPedia Rumi page. See an interview with Sefik Can Efendi the great Mathnawi scholar of the Mevlevi http://www.semazen.net/eng/roportaj_detay.php?id=46 which reads: Q: Sir, is the quatrain (rubai) "Come! Come again! Whoever, whatever you may be, come!" understood by contemporary people, right? A: This quatrain does not belong to Mevlana, and this is already known by everyone. The library official at the dergah, the Mevlevi dervish lodge, the late Necati Bey, had seen this quatrain written in old calligraphy on a sheet. Without searching for the its origin, he spread the rumor everywhere that it was a Mevlana quatrain. Whereas, this quatrain is introduced as belonging to someone else in an anthology called "Harabat," that was prepared by Ziya Pasha. I saw that in another handwritten quatrain as well; nevertheless, because Mevlana has many quatrains like this one, and even some more enthusiastic ones, it might also be accepted as a Mevlana quatrain. This is not very important. The main problem is about those who are unaware of the spirit of this quatrain and take it on the surface, in addition to those who created this situation.

Or see http://www.dar-al-masnavi.org/corrections_popular.html 84. Nevit Ergin (translated from Golpinarli's Turkish translation), "Crazy As We Are," 1992, p. 1. Comment: This is one of the most frequently quoted poems attributed to Rumi, but is not authenticated as his (and it is also not in the earliest manuscripts of the quatrains attributed to him). It is found in the same form in the quatrains of Bâbâ Afzaluddîn Kâshânî (died 1274-- Rumi died 1273) and is related to a similar quatrain attributed to Abu Sa`îd ibn Abi 'l-Khayr, died 1048 (see "Nobody, Son of Nobody: Poems of Shaikh Abu-Saeed Abil-Kheir," renditions by Vraje Abramian, 2001, p. 4, c). It is one among the most frequently quoted poems by Turkish Mevlevis (the "Whirling Dervishes") themselves (who have long assumed it to be a Rumi poem), from a Turkish translation of the original Persian.Dharps (talk) 20:15, 10 November 2008 (UTC)"

https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Talk:Rumi/Archive_3#Come,_Come........


Skycorbett (talk) 10:37, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

Ethnicity: Persian(Tajik)

The oldest usage of the word "Tajik" as a self-designation comes from Rumi himself, source added in the bottom. Thus it would be more accurate to make the infobox say: "Ethnicity: Persian (Tajik)

"According to the Encyclopaedia of Islam, however, the oldest known usage of the word Tajik as a reference to Persians in Persian literature can be found in the writings of the Persian poet Jalal ad-Din Rumi. *3 The 15th century Turkic-speaking poet Mīr Alī Šer Navā'ī also used Tajik as a reference to Persians."

An example for the usage of the word Tajik in Persian literature is, for example, the writing of Sa'adi: شایَد کِه بَه پادشاه بگویند ترک تو بریخت خون تاجیک

Šâyad ki ba pâdšâh bigoyand Turke tu birext xune Tâjik

It's appropriate to tell the King, Your Turk shed the blood of Tajik" *1

"Iranians soon accepted it as an ethnonym, as is shown by a Persian court official's [Al-Bayhaqi] referring to mā tāzikān "we Tajiks"." *2


  • 1 Ali Shir Nava'i Muhakamat al-lughatain tr. & ed. Robert Devereaux (Leiden: Brill) 1966 p6
  • 2 (Bayhaqi, ed. Fayyāz, p. 594).
  • 3 C.E. Bosworth/B.G. Fragner, "Tādjīk", in Encyclopaedia of Islam, Online Edition: "... In Islamic usage, [Tādjīk] eventually came to designate the Persians, as opposed to Turks [...] the oldest citation for it which Schraeder could find was in verses of Djalāl al-Dīn Rūmī ..." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Xerxes931 (talk • contribs) 00:09, 29 October 2019 (UTC)
Pure WP:OR --Wario-Man (talk) 09:54, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

@Wario-Man Why is that no original research?I added primary and secondary/modern sources. Elaborate on that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Xerxes931 (talk • contribs) 01:09, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

I didn't say your provided stuff are original research. They are OK but the way you want to use and interpret them is your very own original research. Better read that linked WP guideline plus this WP:NEUTRAL. If you want to add "Tajik" to this article, you need a reliable source that supports it. Where are your sources about "Rumi was Tajik"? --Wario-Man (talk) 11:56, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

Mevlevi

It says: "Mevlevî/Mawlawī (مولوی, "my master")" but isn't mevlevi simply an adjective derived from "mawlana"?

My master would be mawlaya with an alif instead of the penultimate waw. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.135.96.154 (talk) 04:14, 1 December 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 February 2020

The "Religious outlook" poem translation have several problems and should be like this :

There is no mention of a gender on first part of the first line so it should be : On the seeker’s path, wise and fools are one.
   The second part of first line is like : in the way of love[1], The self and the stranger are one[2]
First part of the second line starts with : The one who was given the hookup wine of lover
   Then it adds to the previous part: in his[3] religion, Kaaba and Idol place are one [4]

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Ashkan1234wtf (talk • contribs) 03:49, 3 February 2020 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ Persian to English translation of "شیوه‌ی عشق" : https://translate.google.com/#view=home&op=translate&sl=fa&tl=en&text=%D8%B4%DB%8C%D9%88%D9%87%E2%80%8C%DB%8C%20%D8%B9%D8%B4%D9%82
  2. ^ Persian to English translation of "خویش و بیگانه یکی است" https://translate.google.com/#view=home&op=translate&sl=fa&tl=en&text=%D8%AE%D9%88%DB%8C%D8%B4%20%D9%88%20%D8%A8%DB%8C%DA%AF%D8%A7%D9%86%D9%87%20%DB%8C%DA%A9%DB%8C%20%D8%A7%D8%B3%D8%AA
  3. ^ Pronouns in Persian are neuter gender so "his" which refers to the one who drank the hookup wine of lover is not a good choice either. https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Gender_neutrality_in_genderless_languages#Persian
  4. ^ Idols were housed in the Kaaba, an ancient sanctuary in the city of Mecca. The site housed about 360 idols and attracted worshipers from all over Arabia. https://courses.lumenlearning.com/boundless-worldhistory/chapter/pre-islamic-arabia/
 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Google Translate, as wonderful a tool as it is, is not a reliable source because it is machine-translated. google acknowledges these limitations themselves. A source that supports the requested change that would be usable would be one from a professional translator or academic studying the area. I hope this helps. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 17:17, 25 February 2020 (UTC)

Rumi and Iqbal

@Khestwol and Xerxes931: you have deleted a paragraph talking about Pakistan's national poet, Iqbal, considering Rumi his spiritual leader. The reasoning in the edit summaries was that (1) Pakistan didn't exist during Iqbal's lifetime and (2) Iqbal was an Indian national, nothing to do with Pakistan. These are irrelevant. A person of nationality X can consider a person of nationality Y their spiritual leader. A historical personage who lived before the existence of country X can be considered a national hero; consider, for example, that Germany didn't exist when Goethe was alive. After all, most Christians are not Levantines, and most Muslims are not Arabs. In any case, Iqbal was neither a national of Pakistan or of the Republic of India -- rather, he was a national of British India and lived, as it happens, in Lahore, which is in modern Pakistan. But as I say, that is irrelevant: Iqbal considered himself a disciple of Rumi and there is a reliable source for that. If you remove this content again, I will open an RfC. --Macrakis (talk) 13:49, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

Nobody disagrees with Iqbal Lahori taking Rumi as his spiritual leader or whate.ver. Of course Iqbal, an Lahori Indian, can take Rumi, a Balkhi Persian, as his role model, nothing wrong with that, you are missing the point that he wasn’t a Pakistani and probably didn’t even knew the term, that’s literally like saying Rumi was an Afghan. Also India has been existing for thousands of years and of course Iqbal was an Indian, just because the British ruled India at that time it doesn’t change his ethnicity, that’s like saying an Indian born in the 1600s isn’t Indian because the Mughals ruled at that time. The problem with the content is that it’s talking about Pakistan, you can add the content if you remove that part and change it with India/Indian.Furthermore this view of me is literally supported by the source which doesn’t say anything about Pakistan in connection with Iqbal. --Xerxes931 (talk) 14:06, 3 September 2020 (UTC)
The article doesn't say that Iqbal is Pakistani, just that he is Pakistan's "National Poet". Doesn't Pakistan have the right to name anyone they want their national poet? Do you dispute that Pakistan named him their national poet? Anyway, Iqbal did know about the idea of Pakistan, and supported it in public, though he had reservations about it. Of course, he died before Independence and the establishment of the Pakistani state. (See Anjum's biography, for example)
In any case, if your objection is to the exact wording of this section, correct the wording, don't remove the section entirely. --Macrakis (talk) 15:08, 3 September 2020 (UTC)
The source, added by Macrakis, states Rumi is Sir Muhammad Iqbal’s great master ... he names himself as Mureed-i-Hindi (the Indian disciple). Therefore, even if we use this source, we can title the section "India" or the "Indian subcontinent". The term "Pakistani" is not in the source. Khestwol (talk) 16:57, 3 September 2020 (UTC)
User:Khestwol Agree, also I tried fixing the lead in the article of Muhammad Iqbal per that source but some Pakistani user is offended by it, you might want to look over it too, what’s your opinion ? --Xerxes931 (talk) 20:31, 3 September 2020 (UTC)
I don't understand what you're arguing against. The article does not say that Iqbal was Pakistani. It says that he is Pakistan's National Poet, which is easy to establish by multiple reliable sources, including Anjum's biography, which I mentioned above.
The fact that he called himself "Mureed-i-Hindi" is irrelevant. As I hope you know, "India" or "Hind" before partition referred to the whole subcontinent as a geographical and cultural area, not just the modern Republic of India. Iqbal in particular often spoke of "Muslim India" (see Allahabad Address).
As I said above, even if you object to the wording, the correct solution is to change the wording, not to remove the section. What you are doing is a form of WP:Edit warring. --Macrakis (talk) 14:31, 4 September 2020 (UTC)
What you want to add, without a valid WP:RS, is definitely WP:OR. Khestwol (talk) 17:42, 4 September 2020 (UTC)
I'll be happy to add more sources. --Macrakis (talk) 19:04, 7 September 2020 (UTC)
User: Macrakis Please refrain from adding the content before we have met a consensus yet, you yourself have already stated that you would be fine with changing the wording. We should make a section for the Indian subcontinent and then add all the related content there, including Iqbal, mentioning him here as the national poet of Pakistan is irrelevant to this topic which was actually more or less the point from the beginning. What do you think User:Khestwol--Xerxes931 (talk) 16:12, 10 September 2020 (UTC)
What I think is that you and Khestwol are edit warring. Instead of improving the article by rephrasing the content or adding sources as you suggest, you are simply removing well-sourced content. You constantly change your rationale here on Talk. First it was that there was no good source for Iqbal being the national poet of Pakistan. Then it was that Iqbal should be considered "Indian" rather than Pakistani (a claim that was never made), even though he is one of the founders of Pakistani nationalism. Now it is that it is "irrelevant" that Iqbal cited Rumi as his spiritual leader and often mentioned him as Pir Rumi. We need some outside help in resolving this. --Macrakis (talk) 16:38, 10 September 2020 (UTC)

RfC: Rumi and Iqbal

How should Rumi's influence on Iqbal be described in this article, and should Iqbal be described as the national poet of Pakistan? Macrakis (talk) 17:12, 10 September 2020 (UTC)

Two editors have consistently removed any mention of Iqbal on the Rumi page. See discussion on Talk:Rumi and the relevant Edit summaries. Their rationale has shifted several times:

  • "Pakistan didn't even exist during Iqbal's lifetime." (in fact, Iqbal worked towards the creation of Pakistan during his lifetime)
  • "Iqbal was an Indian national; nothing to do with Pakistan" (in fact, Iqbal was a leading theoretician of Muslim India)
  • Iqbal called himself "Mureed-i-Hindi" 'the Indian disciple', therefore Pakistan should not be mentioned (but Hind before partition included all of South Asia)
  • "Poorly sourced/unsourced addition of 'Pakistani'" (in fact, Iqbal was not characterized as Pakistani)
  • Insufficient sources for Iqbal being national poet of Pakistan (I added several RSs)
  • Finally, "mentioning him here as the national poet of Pakistan is irrelevant" (it shows his importance)

These editors have consistently simply removed the section on Iqbal rather than constructively edit and improve it. --Macrakis (talk) 17:13, 10 September 2020 (UTC)

I think, because of the absence of WP:RS, Macrakis' whole rationale is based on WP:OR, so we cannot add his content. The only source he provided us refers to Iqbal as an "Indian" and didn't even mention the word "Pakistan". Also, I agree with the suggestion by Xerxes above. What problem does Macrakis have with using the word "India" and the broader term "Indian subcontinent"? Khestwol (talk) 12:39, 12 September 2020 (UTC)
Let's look at the text that you've deleted:

Pakistan's National Poet, Muhammad Iqbal, was also inspired by Rumi's works and considered him to be his spiritual leader, addressing him as "Pir Rumi" in his poems (the honorific Pir literally means "old man", but in the Sufi/mystic context it means founder, master, or guide).[1][2][3][4]

  1. ^ Said, Farida. "REVIEWS: The Rumi craze". Archived from the original on 2007-09-27. Retrieved 2007-05-19.
  2. ^ Zafar Anjum, Iqbal: The Life of a Poet, Philosopher and Politician, 2014, ISBN 8184005865, Kindle location 325
  3. ^ Akbar S. Ahmed, Jinnah, Pakistan and Islamic Identity: The Search for Saladin, ISBN 0415149665, 1997, p. 74, 78
  4. ^ "Nation celebrates 142nd birth anniversary of Allama Iqbal", Daily Times (Pakistan), November 10, 2019
What exactly are you claiming is OR and lacking RS? That Iqbal is Pakistan's national poet? That he considered Rumi to be his spiritual leader, addressing him as Pir Rumi? That Pir means "founder, master, guide"? If you can be more precise and what you think is missing, we can fill it in.
If Iqbal is also respected in India and elsewhere in South Asia, that is additional information that can be added without removing the existing well-sourced information. --Macrakis (talk) 14:45, 12 September 2020 (UTC)
You still have not provided us a reliable reference which directly talks about Rumi's legacy in Pakistan. Iqbal never lived in Pakistan (but then India), so understandably a reference linking Iqbal and Rumi won't be talking in a Pakistani context. The fact that Iqbal (an Urdu poet) is considered a national poet in present-day Pakistan reflects Iqbal's legacy in Pakistan, but it does not directly reflect Rumi's legacy in that new country. Furthermore, most Pakistanis do not even understand any of the languages in which Rumi wrote his poetry (Persian, etc) so it is understandable that he does not have a significant legacy there. Khestwol (talk) 17:11, 12 September 2020 (UTC)
The text above does not claim that Rumi has a "legacy in Pakistan", whatever that means. Whether Pakistanis understand Persian is irrelevant. So, try again: what exactly in that text is not supported by RS?
If I understand your point correctly (I am not sure, because you haven't stated it explicitly), you would like Iqbal to be shown as being important to not just Pakistan, but also to other parts of South Asia. I have no objection to that at all. The section heading could perfectly well be "South Asia", with additional paragraphs about his importance in India, etc.
As I've said before, please add good information rather than trying to remove good, well-cited information. --Macrakis (talk) 17:23, 12 September 2020 (UTC)

We can have a section “Indian subcontinent” and add Iqbal and some other poets who were inspired by Rumi in that section, there is no need for the term “Pakistan” to be mentioned in that section. I would have no problem with this quote: “ Muhammad Iqbal, was also inspired by Rumi's works and considered him to be his spiritual leader, addressing him as "Pir Rumi" in his poems (the honorific Pir literally means "old man", but in the Sufi/mystic context it means founder, master, or guide)” under the Indian subcontinent section. --Xerxes931 (talk) 16:09, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

I agree with Xerxes931. Khestwol (talk) 19:37, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

Rumi’s place of born

He was born in city of Balkh north of today’s Afghanistan which was part of Khwarezmian Empire. There is a misinformation that Wikipedia writing that he may has born Balkh or Wakhsh (present-day Tajikistan), Khwarezmian Empire. Please make a note he is from Bulkh Afghanistan. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.11.207.172 (talk) 01:34, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

An editor keeps making the same edit, in spite of two other editors objecting:
  1. 22:10, 13 June 2020 changes Greater Khorasan to [[Greater Khorasan|Greater Iran]]
  2. 18:10, 14 June 2020 changes Greater Khorasan to [[Greater Khorasan|Greater Iran]]
  3. 11:27, 15 June 2020 changes Greater Khorasan to [[Greater Khorasan|Greater Iran]]
There are articles on both Greater Khorasan and Greater Iran. The proposed piped link creates an "easter egg". This is against Wikipedia policies MOS:LINKCLARITY and MOS:EASTEREGG. -- Toddy1 (talk) 11:45, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

NPOV Issues

Much of this article conflates three separate categories of claims:

  1. Reliably-verified historical facts
  2. Claims to fact of limited reliability
  3. Opinions and subjective valuations

In some cases, these distinctions are given, as in the mention of hagiographical accounts of Rumi's life. However, the biographical section of the article mixes events that are ordinary and likely historical with events that are extraordinary and dubious, and therefore may be embellishments or inventions of followers. This mixing, already confusing, is made worse by omissions, at many points, of any explicit distinctions within the text.

In several places, the Franklin Lewis biography is mentioned or cited. Such use may be appropriate, but the early characterization of the biography as "authoritative" may be inappropriate to include in the article text.

The sections on Rumi's work are particularly problematic with respect to separation of objective facts and subjective valuation, and parts of it read more as an enthusiastic endorsement than as a neutral critique.

Passages such as the following are particularly problematic:

Rumi embeds his theosophy (transcendental philosophy) like a string through the beads of his poems and stories. His main point and emphasis is the unity of being.

A metaphor such as "string of beads", and a reference to "unity of being", are more appropriate within religious literature than they are within a secular critique of religious literature. Such distinction is not to negate the value of the original literature, only to offer a description of it that is neutral, that is, accessible and agreeable to readers without difference according to their backgrounds.

Epl (talk) 07:14, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

See Also section - English Translators

Daniel Ladinsky is listed as an English translator of Rumi poetry. This is highly disputed, as Ladinsky is not able to read or speak Farsi. There is more information (and numerous citations) on Ladinsky's own Wikipedia page here: Daniel_Ladinsky#Translation_misrepresentation. I don't know how to properly make a change, so I was hoping a more experienced Wiki editor could help. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1702:3070:13C0:A125:B7B3:4623:B251 (talk) 15:25, 24 October 2020 (UTC)

Citation needed

Could someone please provide a citation for the portion of "Teachings" regarding Rumi's passion for music and dance. Abysmus (talk) 06:32, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

Someone undid my edits but I think they’re valid edits

I am still a beginner with editing Wikipedia so this is the first time I have disagreed with someone about some edits. If there is a better process for me to go about this, please let me know.

I was planning on working on this article more extensively but just started with a few small points to begin with. I noticed that there was no phonetic transcription of Rumi’s name, but many many other pages on Wikipedia include the pronunciation in IPA (phonetic alphabet). My edit was cited to dictionary.com. The person who reverted my edit had the reason “doesn’t improve the article”. I believe Wikipedia policy is on my side here - I contributed relevant, accurate information, and I think it says somewhere you shouldn’t revert other people’s edits unless they’re seriously wrong in some way. Now, it is an open, subjective question if the article would be more aesthetically ideal with or without IPA, but I think that’s why Wikipedia policy is the way it is - many people can disagree about what the best way to write the introduction would be and just keep reverting other people’s edits and writing it the way they like it - so instead there has to be a kind of common policy of adding relevant information and only very sparingly taking away others’. So, I want to add my IPA back, not only because I think it’s useful, but also because it helps me know how to settle these kinds of editing disagreements going forward. Do I need some kind of consensus from other people, should I just write a note in the text justifying my edit and requesting it not be reverted? I guess my question amounts to: how do I seek consensus from other editors? And then, how can we ensure that an edit remains in place, if some editor tries to revert it? Thank you. Jukhamil (talk) 04:07, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 February 2021

193.81.136.93 (talk) 23:11, 6 February 2021 (UTC)


He is from Afghanistan if you don’t know. Balkhi means from Balkh and balkh is in Afghanistan 🇦🇫

Actually we have two sources stating otherwise. However, Balkh is mentioned as one possible birth place. --Kansas Bear (talk) 00:06, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

Did Rumi ever wrote in Turkish?

I doubt he even knew Turkish, if he did, he would have wrote in it. Considering he had poems in Greek and not in Turkish makes me think he didn't even spoke Turkish.

The article claims Rumi had Turkish poems, but i have yet to see a Turkish poem by Rumi no matter which source i look up. The citation for that claim seems vague, also. --AvatarofMahakala (talk) 05:52, 13 June 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 10 July 2021

70.234.90.165 (talk) 02:51, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

Mulana was from Afghanistan and he has never been a Persian but and Afghan , Khurasan is the current Afghanistan, the capital of Khurasan was Balkh current Balkh province of Afghanistan and the history proves it. Iran was a part of Khurasan, current Afghanistan. This Article is a big lie, like many others.

Please do your homework before sharing any article publicly, and don’t give a fake culture advantages to your country.

Thanks

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made.   melecie   t 03:09, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

Most recent research on the Divan-e Shams-e Tabrizi.

Here you can find a most recent research on Divan-e Shams-e Tabrizi, in 2 volumes. They are in PDF format, and are donated to the public by the authors. In these volumes accents (اعراب) have been added to the words which will make correct reading and understanding of the contents much easier for those commanding Farsi. In addition difficult words have been translated to help. You are termite to download the contents to your devices should you want to.

Divan-e Shams-e Tabrizi Volume1 ديوان شمس تبریزی با اعراب و معانی کلمات مشكل جلد اول

Divan-e Shams-e Tabrizi Volume2 ديوان شمس تبریزی با اعراب و معانی کلمات مشكل جلد دوم — Preceding unsigned comment added by MehdiAf110 (talk • contribs) 23:15, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

Wikipedia is conflicting it is own sources and Rumi's living descendants

According to Rumi's family tree[1] of 26 generations which spans over 800 years Rumi actually is not his name Rumi means from Rum which refers to Anatolia where he lived. His real name was Muhammed given by his parents but nicknamed Celalledin. He is referred to as Hz. Mevlana Celalledin Rumi which means Our Master Holly Celalledin that lives/d in Rum. Rumi's current family refers to "Hz. Mevlana was born on 30 September 1207 in the city of Balkh, Horasan, which at the time was inhabited by Turkish tribes; (Balkh, today, remains within the boundaries of Afghanistan). His mother Mümine was the daughter of Rükneddin, the “emir” (sovereign ruler) of Balkh and his father, Bahaeddin Veled, was “Sultanu-l ulema”(chief scholar). Their clash of opinion with Fahreddin-i Razi, one of his contemporary mystics, along with the probability of a Mongol invasion urged him to desert his hometown accompanied by his entire family. Their migration, via Baghdad, Mecca, Medina, Damascus, Malatya, Erzincan, and Karaman, ended up, on 3 May 1228, in Konya upon the invitation of Alaeddin Keykubad, the Seljuk Emperor."[2].

Another Wikipedia source confirms that when Rumi was born in Balkh 1207 he was born in the 'Khwarazmian Empire' [3] which was a Turko-Persian[4] Sunni Muslim empire. Khwarazmian Empire was a vassal state of Seljuk Empire. This comes directly from Wikipedia's own source. And again Turko-Persian, as referred to in Wikipedia [5], is the composite Turco-Persian tradition or Turco-Iranian tradition (Persian: فرهنگ ایرانی-ترکی‎) refers to a distinctive culture that arose in the 9th and 10th centuries in Khorasan and Transoxiana (present-day Afghanistan, Iran, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, Tajikistan, minor parts of Kyrgyzstan and Kazakhstan). It was Persianate in that it was centred on a lettered tradition of Iranian origin, and it was Turkic insofar as it was founded by and for many generations patronized by rulers of Turkic heredity. This information is all on Wikipedia and confirms Rumi's family's story regarding Rumi's origins. His mother was the daughter of the sovereign ruler which suggest Rumi had at least half Turkic heredity and his father was a chief scholar. Some resources suggest Rumi's father Bahaeddin Veled[6], is a descendant of Abu Bakr from his mother's side and paternally from Balkh. Balkh was at the time inhabited by Turkish tribes[7] which suggest Rumi was likely to have a mixed heritage of 75% Turkish and 25% Arab heritage. The living descendants[8] of Rumi's family acknowledged his Turkish heredity.

As writing in English does not make one English or American. Writing in Persian does not make Rumi Persian. At best Wikipedia could question Rumi's origin however deciding his origin through debates on the platform such an extend that contradicts Wikipedia's other entries is in danger of resulting in knowledge erosion.

Rumi is considered a Muslim Saint so out of respect his holly title 'Hz.' should also be added in front of his name for cultural appropriateness.

I would suggest Wikipedia extend Rumi's origin and also include his full name and respective Holly title. For example:

Hz. Mevlana Celalledin Rumi (Our Master Holly Celalledin that lived in Rum-Anatolia) was born on 30th September 1207 in the city of Balkh, Horasan[9], which at the time was part of the Khwarazmian Empire (Turko-Persian Sunni Muslim empire). Rumi's descendants[10] acknowledged his Turkish hereditary. Rumi might had a mix heritage of Turkish and some Arab hereditary[11], however there is an ambiguation by some resources that he might be Persian. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alpsays (talk • contribs) 00:35, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

  1. ^ https://www.mevlana.net/index.html
  2. ^ https://www.mevlana.net/index.html
  3. ^ https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Khwarazmian_Empire
  4. ^ https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Turco-Persian_tradition
  5. ^ https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Turco-Persian_tradition
  6. ^ https://islamansiklopedisi.org.tr/bahaeddin-veled
  7. ^ https://www.mevlana.net/index.html
  8. ^ https://www.mevlana.net/family_tree-1.html
  9. ^ https://www.mevlana.net/index.html
  10. ^ https://www.mevlana.net/family_tree-1.html
  11. ^ https://islamansiklopedisi.org.tr/bahaeddin-veled
Thanks for sharing the Islam Ansiklopedisi material, which is quite interesting and worth exploring. Further secondary sourcing really needs to be found to confirm this though. With respect to your point about honorific titles, I'm afraid it is Wikipedia's style to omit these. See MOS:ISLAMHON for details. Iskandar323 (talk) 08:01, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
"Mevlana.net" isn't a WP:RS and self-proclaimed "descendants of Mevlana" have no authoritative information on Rumi himself; that's equivalent of saying that being a Sayyid (descendant of Prophet Muhammad) gives authority on analyzing Prophet Muhammad's origin or life. The claim that Balkh, "Horasan" was inhabited by Turkish tribes has no source; being ruled by turks doesn't make a land turkic otherwise Egypt and Bengal would be Turkic lands as well. Encyclopedia of Islam (source is in the article) also rejects Rumis supposed maternal descent from the Khwarazmshah as being unsupported by the dynasty's family tree. None of your sources linked here are used in the article itself so how can the article be "contradicting its own sources"? Rumi is referred to as Persian because his mother tongue was Persian and the area he was born in was (and still is) predominantly Persian. Nearly every authoritative source in the article states so and you've yet to provide any evidence to the contrary. --Qahramani44 (talk) 22:27, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

Rumi is Afghan not Iranian.

This needs to be corrected 103.53.27.253 (talk) 16:39, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 16 January 2022

Nationality says “Iranian” when it states that Rumi was born in Balkh which present day is Afghanistan. Nationality should be changed to “Afghan” 24.150.71.231 (talk) 18:36, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 19:16, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

How is music part of humanity?

Answer the question briefly 200 words each 27.5.155.5 (talk) 07:42, 9 April 2022 (UTC)

Controversy

There is a "“Rumi was Muslim” controversy" section which has already been tagged with {{Recentism}} and I agree. I would also say that WP:CSECTION applies as well. It appears to be a critique of Victorian-era translations of the poet which seemingly remove Islamic-references from his works.

I am concerned about the fact that social media campaigns/trends are being highlighted in the section. While a book review for Omid Safi in the New Yorker has been linked, I don't think it is adequate in that specifics are not highlighted nor if recent Western scholarship has continued the trend. I will be removing the section for now and if it needs to be highlighted, it needs to be done under the "Legacy section" with a holistic viewpoint of the situation. Gotitbro (talk) 22:40, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

Rumi

Rumi does not wrote anything in Pashto so please change the Pashto language as there is no evidence 78.145.68.227 (talk) 21:49, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

This content is fictitious. He manipulates the works of Mevlana by referring to the translation books.

This content does not reflect reality in any way. The reason why the content is protected and restricted to certain information creates different perceptions by using religion and mawlana. Please choose another source to get to know Mevlana. This information is a fictitious worthless document written by a few simple-minded people to make themselves happy.

You will understand better if you look at the reference numbers below. They assimilate Mevlana in their own way by using TRANSLATION books written by them or suitable for their own stories. REFNO: 81,82,83,84,85,86,87,88,89,90,91

So, you can translate someone's book into your language and then reference it on wikipedia and get approval to protect the page. These simple manipulation games do not make or deal with such religious organizations. This is not something a normal person would do or deal with. He uses Wikipedia's foreign resources for personal purposes because of people like this. vSky 20:18, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

webarchieve backup has been taken. vSky 20:19, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 25 December 2022

Rumi was born in Balkh in present day Afghanistan. This was deleted and someone claims he was born in in the present day post Soviet republic of Tajikistan while there is no proof for that. How can you ignore the fact that Rumi was born in Balkh, present day Afghanistan according to the vast majority of all historians and intellectuals in this world. Wikipedia really has become a playground for vandals and ultranationalists 2A00:20:D00F:C03:7904:9EFF:C562:62C5 (talk) 17:27, 25 December 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Lemonaka (talk) 18:15, 25 December 2022 (UTC)

Jalal al-Bakri

Jalal al-Din al-Bakri al-Rumi has an Arab lineage that goes back to Abu Bakr So why is it published in Wikipedia that he is Persian? I hope that the page is neutral, far from nationalism. 2A00:5400:E058:2A14:9C4D:98FC:7080:2EC6 (talk) 10:18, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 16 January 2023

The place of birth of Rumi is Balkh (present day Afghanistan). 166.48.208.115 (talk) 22:51, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 23:03, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

Removal of sourced information

@Af420: Wanna explain to everyone why you are removing supported by two WP:RS (including one by the Oxford University Press) and instead adding information supported by random websites such as rumibalkhi.com? [14] [15] [16] HistoryofIran (talk) 21:44, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

@Af420: This is barely any better, as you still are using non-WP:RS. I ask you again as I did on your talk page, which you failed to answer: How are your random websites WP:RS? Explain. HistoryofIran (talk) 21:55, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
Dear @HistoryofIran:

Let’s just remove “rumibalkhi.com”, my other sources are still much more reliable than yours. The sources that proves my point are some of the most popular, known and respected websites, like:

Af420 (talk) 22:02, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

@Af420: Those are not “my” sources, I didnt add them. Is it that hard to answer a simple question? I ask again: Can you please demonstrate how these sites constitute as WP:RS? Are they academic sources, written by historians? If you cant adress this then I will restore the original revision, and if you revert after that, it will be WP:ANI. HistoryofIran (talk) 22:07, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
@Af420: I see you conveniently disappeared. You have till Monday to demonstrate it, that's seven days counting from my earlier comment. --HistoryofIran (talk) 23:53, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
@HistoryofIran: what’s your problem, why do u think everything on Wikipedia should work the way you want it to work? If websites like United Nations and The New Yorker says that Rumi was in fact born in Afghanistan, then there is in fact a chance that he was born there. Moreover, now we have both places as the birthplace, so let people see both sides, if u find better sources than mine, please add them, as many sources u have the strongest your opinion will be. Furthermore, instead of just writing your feelings, please add some good sources! BTW, not everybody has so much free time, so I’ll not be able to discuss this situation with you anymore, you can absolutely do as you wish, but I advise you to always have sources that proves your point:)

Af420 (talk) 02:01, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

And still you keep commenting on me, see WP:NPA. I am not the one obsessed with adding a city related to my country of origin to this article, so I fail to see how this has anything to do with my "feelings". I simply follow the rules, that simple. It's not my job either to do your work. I see, you only have free time when it comes reverting; if you can't find WP:RS, nor explain why your cited sources are WP:RS, then that's your own problem. Since you have openly said that you are not going to take part in this discussion anymore and that I can do absolutely as I wish, I have reverted back to the original revision. -HistoryofIran (talk) 02:13, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
Looks like you yet had free time to revert again. For those interested, I have reported him [17]. --HistoryofIran (talk) 14:13, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
@HistoryofIran: looks like u forgot WP:NPA in the last message ;) Af420 (talk) 15:54, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ "Rumi was born in the early thirteenth century, in what is now Afghanistan". The New Yorker. 5 January 2017.
  2. ^ "UN culture agency celebrates life of poet, philosopher and spiritual leader Rumi". United Nations. 6 September 2007.

Semi-protected edit request on 16 April 2023

In this text "Rumi lived most of his life under the Persianate[39][40][41] Seljuk Sultanate of Rum, where he produced his works" sentence is misleading since Seljuk Sultanate of Rum was not Persianate, but more Turkic. Further more Rumi philosophy was highly influenced by the current state of the Turkic states forming around him at times. I understand Rumi's place in Persian culture, but his place in Turkish culture is not correctly represented in this text and I believe it is biased. Yesilkebelek (talk) 04:34, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Lightoil (talk) 04:46, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

Türkiye's tabii has started streaming Mevlana Rumi on its platform https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QN--5--gNdM&feature=youtu.be Faysal.prince (talk) 09:54, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 14 June 2023

Rumi was born in Afghanistan in city of Balkh not in Iran or Tajikstan 203.221.10.69 (talk) 10:24, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 13:38, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

Translated verse alignment

Does anyone know how to correct the slight verse misalignment in the template used for the translated poem in the teachings section? Iskandar323 (talk) 16:57, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

Balkh City

Balkh City was much larger in 13th century. Mevlana was born in Balkhi, currently located in Afghanistan.

His surname was Balkhi, which in Persian means "from Balkh", how come we still keep playing with his origin?

Some people running on Wikipedia mis-information agenda. 84.251.64.121 (talk) 08:45, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

Reliable sources make clear that he was born in Vakhsh, not Balkh (where his family was from) - so this should just be removed the infobox and the like. Iskandar323 (talk) 11:12, 6 December 2022 (UTC)


Honestly do not care where Rumi was born, but...
  • "DJALAL AL-DIN RUMI B. BAHA' AL-DIN SULTAN AL-'ULAMA'WALAD B. HUSAYN B. AHMAD KHATIBI, known by the sobriquet Mawlana (Mevlana), Persian poet and founder of the Mawlawiyya order of dervishes, which was named after him, was born on Rabi'I 604/30 September 1207 in Balkh, and died on 5 Djumada II 672/1273 in Konya." --The Encyclopaedia of Islam, Vol. II:C-G, Brill, 1991, page 393, H. Ritter.
  • "Rumi's birth in Balkh..." -- The Masnavi, Book Five, Jalal al-Din Rumi, page xxvii, transl. Jawid Mojaddedi, Oxford University Press.
  • "Afghanistan vigorously claims Rumi on ground of "jus soli" because he was born in Balkh..."-- Rapture and Revolution: Essays on Turkish Literature, Talat S. Halman. Syracuse University Press, page 263.
  • "Rumi, was born in Balkh on the 6th of Rabi' alawwal 604 A.H...." --Islamic Art and Spirituality, Seyyed Hossein Nasr, page 115, State University of New York Press
  • "Mawlana Jalal al-Din Rumi was one of the greatest poets and mystics of the Islamic world. He was born in Balkh (Korasan) in AD 1207.." --Poetry and Mysticism in Islam: The Heritage of Rumi, ed. Amin Banani, Richard Hovannisian, Georges Sabagh, page 3, Cambridge University Press.
  • "Perhaps the greatest Sufi poet of all, Jalal al-Din Molavi Rumi, was born near Balkh.. --Iran: What Everyone Needs to Know, Michael Axworthy, page 35, Oxford University Press.
These are just a few I found searching for only university published sources. --Kansas Bear (talk) 18:15, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
In-depth works on Rumi, such as those by Franklin Lewis, and including the books and articles already cited in the note on the page, explain the residence of Rumi's father in Vakhsh at the time of Rumi's birth in some depth, led by the early scholarship of Fritz Meier. We also have Annemarie Schimmel attesting this scholarship. That's already three eminent subject-matter experts. The above works by contrast appear to be mainly more generalist sources, which one might forgive for being looser on the finer biographical detail. Hellmut Ritter is also an expert, but his 1991 EoI entry is dated. Jawid Mojaddedi is an Afghan scholar who might be forgiven for leaning into the POV identified by Talât Sait Halman: "Afghanistan vigorously claims...". The works by Seyyed Hossein Nasr and Richard G. Hovannisian are again generalist, while Michael Axworthy says "near Balkh", not "in Balkh", which in a very broad sense Vakhsh could be considered to be. Iskandar323 (talk) 19:43, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
A Wikipedia article should be objective and honest. It should be mentioned that there is debate over his birthplace, with Balkh also being a probable origin. Why do you think he is called Rumi e Balkhi? 2607:FEA8:A4E0:D000:F4B9:3DF1:1A8D:9D4B (talk) 13:31, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
Very True, He is from Afghanistan. No doubt. 2603:8000:E600:C03E:4117:4563:E620:BA15 (talk) 08:14, 10 April 2023 (UTC)
Currently located in afghanistan, since neither the country or concept of afghanistan existed back. He was a native persian speaker from current Afghanistan is more correct. 83.254.160.80 (talk) 17:42, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

  The city of Vaksh or any city in that region (or Tajikistan) didn’t exist before the 17th century- Afghanistan was far more developed along with Iran, Tajikistan being a more rural and agricultural land mass- hence the vast evidence of art, cultural, scientific and learned centers in the Herat and Balkh regions- it would have been improbable that he was born and raised in Tajikistan. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:6C50:1A40:8932:442D:A096:162F:56DB (talk) 03:58, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 November 2023

Eaditor 2.0 (talk) 22:16, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

Maulana jalaluddin was NOT from Iran. He have also never been there. Maulana is from Balkh, a province in AFGHANISTAN.

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. We don't say he's from Iran. Greater Iran is not the same thing. We already say "Rumi was born to Persian parents,[33][10][11][34] in Balkh[35], modern-day Afghanistan or Wakhsh,[3] a village on the East bank of the Wakhsh River known as Sangtuda in present-day Tajikistan.[3]" in the #Life section as well. Not sure what you're complaining about Cannolis (talk) 22:30, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
174.76.251.66 (talk) 16:46, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
Even if this is the case, Afghanistan was a part of Greater Iran at that time, which is still the case culturally and linguistically.Rumlu (talk) 06:01, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

Afghanistan didn’t exist as a country before 1700’s.

Semi-protected edit request on 24 February 2024

I would like to ask to "change Rumi to Molavi", as his original name is Molavi. He is born in Balkh (currently part of Afghanistan - seperated in 1857 from Iran by Treaty of Paris). His peoms are in Persian and the name of Rumi is not representative of neither his origin nor his name. The name Rumi is a huge misrepresenting for an international poem like Molavi. Farzaneh gholami (talk) 16:28, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: Rumi is his WP:COMMONNAME; regardless of any alleged 'misrepresentation'. The name you characterize as 'not representative' also reflects the geography (see Rûm) he arguably had the most direct impact on. Uness232 (talk) 17:59, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

An interesting fact about Meulana

An interesting and perhaps less widely known fact about Rumi is his deep and transformative friendship with Shams of Tabriz. This meeting is often credited with changing Rumi's life and turning him towards the path of Sufi mysticism. Before meeting Shams, Rumi was a respected but relatively conventional Islamic scholar. The intensity of their relationship sparked an outpouring of poetic longing and spiritual depth in Rumi's work, which previously had not been as evident. Their friendship is a central theme in many of Rumi's poems, illustrating the transformative power of human connection and love. This relationship also led to the creation of many of Rumi's most beloved poems, collected in the "Divan-e Shams-e Tabrizi" (The Collected Poems of Shams of Tabriz). The profound impact of Shams on Rumi's life and work underscores the importance of companionship, love, and the mentor-mentee relationship in the journey of spiritual and personal growth, a theme that resonates across cultures and eras. FatemeHashemi1992 (talk) 16:31, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

The Shams friendship is mentioned quite a bit in the article. Pyrrho the Skipper (talk) 18:37, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Runi quote about source of lights

OK to add Rumi's statement, "Thus, even though two lamp-dishes be not joined, Yet their light is united in a single ray" from https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Masnavi_I_Ma%27navi/Book_III#STORY_XVII._The_Vakil_of_the_Prince_of_Bokhara.


This passage could go in the Teachings section as representing the concept of a commonality to divine teachings. I also encounter this passage translated to English as "The lamps are different, but the Light is the same; it comes from Beyond." I am not certain of the source of this translation, it might be Coleman Barks. Badgettrg (talk) 03:59, 26 July 2024 (UTC)


Ethnicity Removed

Why has Kansas Bear removed the Persian ethnicity of Rumi from being Persian? He cites, MOS:Ethnicity, but it claims it shouldn't be apart of the lead unless relevant to the subject's notability. Consensus has been reached on the talk page about this tiring topic already. Please reintroduce Persian.

The lead in for Socrates is that he is a Greek Philosopher, Rumi is no different here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2607:FEA8:55DF:FC8A:8C6D:42C2:1616:4D24 (talk) 01:39, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

I'd like to mention instead of addressing or explaining his reasoning he simply deleted my comments as an IP user from his talk page. MOS:Ethnicity has not been proved to apply here. unsigned comment added by 2607:FEA8:55DF:FC8A:8C6D:42C2:1616:4D24 (talk) 02:59, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
Comments about this editor's edits are duly noted. Onpoint12 (talk) 23:58, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
Can someone do that please? 103.73.57.133 (talk) 06:27, 8 September 2023 (UTC)
MOS:Ethnicity does not apply here since Rumi's Persian identity is central to his notability. Merely highlighting his origins in 'Greater Iran' lacks clarity for an opening paragraph and he is described as Persian in any reputable academic source (many of which are already cited on this page). Onpoint12 (talk) 10:02, 4 August 2024 (UTC)
Sorry, but his Persian poetry is, not his Persian ethnicity, hence MOS:ETHNICITY applies. HistoryofIran (talk) 22:29, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
His ethnocultural identity is 'Persian' and it is indelibly associated with him and his contribution to Persian literature - as recognised by multiple credible sources used on this page. It is also an important descriptor for the sake of a) clarity (versus saying he is from Khwarezm in Greater Iran, which is opaque and arguably contradictory and b) consistency with other pages on Wikipedia where many poets have ethnocultural descriptors i.e. Greek, Roman preceding the word 'poet'. Any attempt to deny this descriptor works against educating the reader. Onpoint12 (talk) 23:56, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
  • "consistency with other pages on Wikipedia where many poets have ethnocultural descriptors i.e. Greek, Roman preceding the word 'poet'."
WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is not an argument.
Rumi isn't known for being a "Persian", he is known for his poetry. Which has been already stated, which you have clearly ignored. --Kansas Bear (talk) 00:04, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
Rumi is knwon for being a 'Persian poet' in the same way other poets in other languages are 'French poets' or 'English poets'. It refers to ethnocultural identity and contribution. Importantly, academic sources refer to him as the same. The fact that other pages manage to clarify such facts illustrates why they score better for clarity, an area where this page underperforms alarmingly. Onpoint12 (talk) 00:10, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
WP:REHASH. --Kansas Bear (talk) 00:15, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
Previous editors' comments suggest your rationales for these ongoing changes fail to resonate. I am not adding 'Persian' as an ethnic descriptor; please re read my rationale, check the sources used on this page, and understand that MOS:ETHNICITY does not apply here. As others have already highlighted in the past. Onpoint12 (talk) 00:20, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
I await a response on why adding 'Persian' as a descriptor to 'poet' is an ethnic reference that has no place in the article. As mentioned many times, it reflects his 'ethnocultural' identity and contribution, an important aspect of the subject that helps educate the reader, and which is recognised by the sources used on this page (which also describe him as a 'Persian poet). Onpoint12 (talk) 00:59, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
He is well known as being a 'Persian poet', which recognises his ethnocultural identity and contribution. I again highlight the sources used on this page. A simple Google search will also furnish you with the same evidence. Simply telling me he is known for his poetry does not preclude notability based on his ethnocultural identity, the evidence for which is overwhelming Onpoint12 (talk) 01:05, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
Could you please some WP:RS that talks about the importance of this "ethnocultural identity"? There are other ways to highlight a poet without going against MOS:ETHNICITY, eg [18] HistoryofIran (talk) 01:48, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

Request to Reinstate Rumi's Persian Ethnocultural Identity

I would like to propose that Rumi's Persian ethnocultural identity be reinstated in the article's introduction. Rumi is frequently described as a Persian poet and mystic in authoritative academic sources, which are key to understanding his contributions to Persian literature, culture, and Sufism. Removing his Persian identity contradicts scholarly consensus and misrepresents his background.

Why this matters:

Scholarly Consensus: Numerous reliable sources (WP ) refer to Rumi as a Persian figure. Examples include: Franklin Lewis, in his biography Rumi: Past and Present, East and West, consistently refers to him as a "Persian poet." Avery, Heath-Stubbs, and Goulding's book Persian Literature discusses Rumi's impact on Persian literature. Scholarly articles and books listed on Google Scholar and Google Books almost unanimously describe him as a "Persian mystic" or "Persian poet." The removal of "Persian" from Rumi's description diminishes the clarity and cultural context that is central to his historical identity. For example, figures like Socrates are described as Greek philosophers, and Virgil as a Roman poet. These ethnocultural identifiers provide necessary context.

MOS Consideration:

Relevance to Notability: According to [[MOS ]], ethnicity should not be mentioned unless it is significant to the subject's notability. In Rumi’s case, his Persian identity is central to his work and how it is understood globally. His contributions to Persian literature and Sufism are foundational, making "Persian" not only appropriate but essential for historical accuracy.

User Bear argued that MOS applies because Rumi is known for his poetry, not his ethnicity. However, this logic neglects the fact that Rumi’s ethnocultural identity as a Persian is crucial to his literary contributions. Describing him simply as "from Greater Iran" lacks clarity and misleads the reader. Rumi is known as a "Persian poet" in the same way that other poets are labeled by their ethno-cultural identity (e.g., "French poet," "Greek poet").

Supporting Sources:

Lewis, Franklin. "Rumi: Past and Present, East and West: The Life, Teachings and Poetry of Jalal Al-Din Rumi." Oneworld Publications, 2007. Avery, Peter, and Heath-Stubbs, John. "Persian Literature." Cambridge University Press, 1979. Goulding, Edmund L., "The Persian Mysticism of Rumi." Journal of the American Oriental Society, Vol. 121, No. 2, 2001. Several editors, including User , have pointed out the overwhelming academic consensus on Rumi’s Persian identity. User has also mentioned that Rumi’s contributions are tied more to his Persian poetry, which still reinforces the importance of his ethnocultural identity. Disregarding this descriptor works against educating the reader about his historical significance.

Furthermore, User:2607:FEA8:55DF:FC8A:8C6D:42C2:1616:4D24 and User:103.73.57.133 previously raised valid concerns about the removal of "Persian," and their arguments about the clarity and consistency with other pages were dismissed without sufficient engagement.

In summary, MOS does not apply here because Rumi's ethnocultural identity is directly related to his notability, just like other poets are labeled with their respective cultural or ethnic backgrounds. Ignoring this introduces unnecessary ambiguity and detracts from the integrity of the article. I urge for the term "Persian" to be reintroduced as part of his primary descriptor.

I would appreciate input from editors like User Bear, User , User , and User:2607:FEA8:55DF:FC8A:8C6D:42C2:1616:4D24 to discuss this matter further and come to a resolution based on the available evidence.

Thank you for considering this request. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikihero1994 (talk • contribs) 10:55, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

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