Talk:Ronny Lee

Pre-Acceptance

Uploaded a photo of "New York Ronny Lee"—legally Ronald Leventhal, and added it directly under the infobox. If that doesn't disambiguate him for fans of “Texas Ronny Lee”, I don't know what will.DovidBenAvraham (talk) 10:01, 20 September 2015 (UTC)

The photo has been deleted from Wikimedia Commons, due to a couple of original misunderstandings on my part. I have formally requested that it be un-deleted. DovidBenAvraham (talk) 04:58, 24 September 2015 (UTC)

Added an external link to the same photo, on its original sub-sub page within the www.RonnyLee.com website. Sorry about all the surrounding black. This time logged in first. DovidBenAvraham (talk) 12:59, 27 September 2015 (UTC)

Can I use the About Us page on RonnyLee.com as a reference? I know everything on that page was personally vetted by Ronny, but the web re-designer doesn't have a WP account. Since I (as CEO of Ronny Lee Publications, LLC) need to have that page revised to at least change present-tense verbs to past-tense verbs, how about if I had the current version of that page copied to another permanently-frozen page not accessible from within the website? That way the permanently-frozen page could function as Ronny's "dying declaration" and thus be referenceable. In particular I have not been able to find another reference for Ronny's having played behind Sarah Vaughan; Ronny said so to other friends, but he didn't say it to me. DovidBenAvraham (talk) 13:35, 27 September 2015 (UTC)

Through the kindness of Johan Bos of Wikimedia Commons Permissions, the photo has been restored with Cc-by-4.0 and marked as confirmed. I've internally linked to it, so the photo is now at the top of Ronny's infobox. Having learned more about Creative Commons licenses when I wrote the formal e-mail requesting its restoral, my e-mail requested the photo be licensed as Cc-by-sa-4.0. However Herr Bos was willing to accept my suggestion that WM Commons cut a week off the restoral process by simply ignoring my first uploading of the photo and accepting my—as I now know improper—re-uploading with license Cc-by-4.0. Maybe WM Commons can change the license to Cc-by-sa-4.0 in a week or so, when they get around to processing my formal e-mail. DovidBenAvraham (talk) 22:15, 27 September 2015 (UTC)

Links to more articles? I've given you links to more articles! DovidBenAvraham (talk) 03:12, 29 September 2015 (UTC)

Post-Acceptance

The non-web references I added pre-acceptance almost all came from Ronny's own "clippings file", which was a pile of magazines, brochures, and newspaper clippings Ronny left on a shelf in Frances' bedroom dresser cabinet—which he used for method book storage after her death. The exception is the book references concerning the Gretsch Ronny Lee Model guitar, from which page copies were kindly scanned by Ronny's executor and her companion. The intro section was originally copied from www.RonnyLee.com/aboutus.html, but I had to edit out some facts stated in it for which I cannot find references (I was told by a WP editor, in response to my question, that I cannot use that web page as a reference even if I create a copy "frozen" as it was when he died—and even though I know Ronny read and approved every fact on that page). In addition to Ronny's having accompanied Sarah Vaughan, these include Ronny's having been an adjudicator specifically at conferences run by well-known musical organizations (the conference I used in the body of the article is the only one Ronny left a "clipping" for). My justification for putting the reference to OCLC into the intro—the only ref. there and a violation of WP standards—is that I wanted the reviewer(s) to see that the claim that Ronny wrote at least 80 instructional books/charts/tapes/etc. is not hyperbole. DovidBenAvraham (talk) 10:17, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

"Not what format= parameter is for using AWB" in Bgwhite's 10 October edit

I reverted Bgwhite's 10 October edits, some for reasons discussed in the section below, but some for the following more-generally-applicable reason—which I have also posted to his/her Talk page ("you" refers to Bgwhite):

Disallowing the "format=" parameter in {{cite news...}} doesn't allow for magazine vs. newspaper, and in {{cite book...}} doesn't allow for book vs. musical score vs. audiobook. I put this article together from more than two dozen such documents found after Ronny Lee's death in his "clippings pile" on a shelf in his late wife's bedroom cabinet; they had varying formats that I think should be shown in the refs.. If the "format=" parameter is intended for some other use, please enlighten me as to what that use is—and please tell me where that use is documented. Once you have clarified that for me, you will of course want to clarify it for all other WP contributors via a question-mark button attached to the "format" parameter in the {{cite news...}} and {{cite book...}} templates. In the mean time, I humbly suggest you leave the use of the "format=" parameter to the flawed-but-customized judgement of us contributors—and fix AWB accordingly. :-)

Of course, if you prefer to develop separate {{cite ...}} templates for each one of the possible format types of "news" and "book" references, please don't let me stop you. However I won't expect you to be able to take time out for dinner with me this month, or perhaps this year considering that new real-world reference formats will be developed almost as fast you can come up with templates. ;-) And of course, as you do that, you will also have to develop clear explanations for their specific use that can be tied into the "Cite" button in Edit Source. I'm sorry I can't spare the time to help you. :-) DovidBenAvraham (talk) 02:57, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

"Not a reliable source using AWB" in Bgwhite's 10 October edit.

I reverted some more of Bgwhite's 10 October editing, restoring the 3rd through 4th sentences in the "Final Years" section. Here followeth my rant about "Not a reliable source in AWB", which I'm sure duplicates similar complaints about recently-dead persons' as-told-to recollections in many other articles:

These sentences concerned pretty trivial but humanizing facts about Ronny. But they also served to show that he occasionally performed at least into his 80th year. They were stated to me by Ronny over dinner on multiple occasions. The only documentation was Ronny's vacation photographs (which the executor had to throw out after his death because she had no place to keep them), unless Frances' nursing home printed a program for one or more of Ronny's performances—which is unlikely. As for health information about Frances, have you tried getting health information about anyone post-HIPAA? Even the New York State Commission for the Blind, whom I phoned to ask if the State Police would be coming to retrieve the macular–degeneration–overcoming equipment they had given to Ronny, would only very reluctantly admit that they knew of his existence. As a matter of fact, I'm surprised that a WP editor hasn't asked for evidence that Ronny is dead (the executor e-mailed me a scan of the death certificate, which I needed to send to Ronny's wholesale book distributor, so I could post a ref. including the number if necessary—but it doesn't include a cause of death).

Maybe I'll simply remove the RonnyRecollection reference, so AWB won't notice it, and let the two restored sentences stand by themselves. The "clippings pile" does include a printed program for The Veterans Bedside Network Hospital Show Tours #9, which includes Ronny on guitar, so I could use that as a ref. for a new preceding sentence. But good luck to anyone trying to verify that reference; the only date in it is an indication that Tours #9 was put on after 1984, and I can't definitely tell who published the program. DovidBenAvraham (talk) 04:02, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

Facts that couldn't go in article per "Not a reliable source".

Under WP rules, is not considered a reliable source for facts in an article. That won't stop you from being able to read them here (my comments are in square brackets).

(1) "Early Years": At the time there were very few guitar teachers in The Bronx, therefore his parents found a teacher who came to the home. The usual fee for guitar lessons in 1939 was $1.00 for an hour lesson. [This came from an unpublished RL autobiographic fragment.]

(2) "Early Years": At the age of fourteen he had become familiar with movable chords, and as a result was in demand by teenage bands that were being formed. [This came from an unpublished RL autobiographic fragment.]

(3) "Early Years": Since this was just before the end of World War II, Lee underwent Army training but did not go overseas. [This is what I was trying to hint at in the fourth paragraph, for which the sentence "Whether it was likely that Lee would have been sent overseas must be left to the imagination of the reader." was later also disallowed as Original Research. ;-) ]

(4) "Later Years": After taking a multi-year vacation with Frances, Lee resumed teaching guitar and banjo at his Midtown Manhattan home until he developed lung cancer in early 2015. Frances Leventhal spent several years in a nursing home after developing Parkinson Syndrome; Lee visited her 5 days a week and occasionally performed for the home residents until she died in 2005. DovidBenAvraham (talk) 10:22, 15 October 2015 (UTC)

References

(5) Infobox: Sara Vaughan was originally in associated_acts, as well as in the lede, because Ronny Lee had told another of his friends and former students that he had accompanied her. However, after searching her "clippings file" at the Performing Arts Branch of the NY Public Library and the Sarah Vaughan discography in another WP article, I could not find a reliable source—so I had to take her name out. It has since occurred to me that he may have accompanied Vaughan in a live performance (although Ronny's friend thinks it was a studio performance), since I found a Catskills-area newspaper article stating that Vaughan performed at Kutsher's—a resort hotel Ronny played at.

(6) "Later years": Ronny told me he taught guitar to Sonia Braga in the 1990s; I have as evidence a hand-written note from her inviting him to a party, as well as a 3 X 5 card with her address and phone # in Ronny's old tin box. But those don't constitute a reliable source. DovidBenAvraham (talk) 00:55, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

You need to follow the core content policies of Verifiability, Neutral point of view and No original research. This means that you cannot use unpublished sources; you cannot speculate on what might or might not have happened or offer other opinions. Suggesting that something "must be left to the imagination of the reader" is also frowned upon, see MOS:OPED. --Redrose64 (talk) 19:50, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

February 2024 tags

I've added two tags; /Autobiography/ generally and /section rewrite/ to the section about the subject's drafting & military service.

I added autobiography after reviewing the talk page & edit history; the majority of content on this page is not from a disinterested third party, it has been contributed by @DovidBenAvraham who states that they had a personal relationship with the subject on their talk page:

> I was a student of Ronny Lee's for 14 years, and a friend who used to have dinner with him after my guitar lesson.

I added the section rewrite tag to the military piece because much of the section is speculative. Delta7264 (talk) 16:13, 22 February 2024 (UTC)