Talk:Robert Koch

A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on March 24, 2004.

This level-4 vital article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Biography: Science and Academia

	Biography portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography articles
	This article is supported by the science and academia work group (assessed as Mid-importance).

Microbiology Top‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Microbiology, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Microbiology on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.MicrobiologyWikipedia:WikiProject MicrobiologyTemplate:WikiProject MicrobiologyMicrobiology articles
Top	This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.

Biology High‑importance

	Biology portal Robert Koch is part of the WikiProject Biology, an effort to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to biology on Wikipedia. Leave messages on the WikiProject talk page.BiologyWikipedia:WikiProject BiologyTemplate:WikiProject BiologyBiology articles
High	This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.

Germany High‑importance

	Germany portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Germany, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Germany on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.GermanyWikipedia:WikiProject GermanyTemplate:WikiProject GermanyGermany articles
High	This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.
	This article lacks sufficient references and/or adequate inline citations. Once references have been added, remove the `\|unref=` from this template.

Medicine Low‑importance

	Medicine portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Medicine, which recommends that medicine-related articles follow the Manual of Style for medicine-related articles and that biomedical information in any article use high-quality medical sources. Please visit the project page for details or ask questions at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Medicine.MedicineWikipedia:WikiProject MedicineTemplate:WikiProject Medicinemedicine articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

History of Science Mid‑importance

	History of science portal This article is part of the History of Science WikiProject, an attempt to improve and organize the history of science content on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion. You can also help with the History of Science Collaboration of the Month.History of ScienceWikipedia:WikiProject History of ScienceTemplate:WikiProject History of Sciencehistory of science articles
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Physiology Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Physiology, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Physiology on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PhysiologyWikipedia:WikiProject PhysiologyTemplate:WikiProject PhysiologyPhysiology articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the importance scale.
	This article has been classified as relating to the field of physiology.

Untitled

Some say his "ineffective" TB "cure" was more lethal than the disease.^{[dead link‍]} 142.177.126.57 01:22, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)

"Some" are remarkably ignorant, and remarkably willing to distort history and science to their own peculiar ends. Some others apparently have yet to meet a conspiracy theory they didn't like. - Nunh-huh 01:28, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The German Wiki-page seems to confirm that Koch's tuberkulin was not only ineffective in healing the sick but was even harmful. It led to a scandal and as a result future drugs had to be more thoroughly tested before being used on humans. --139.18.240.41 (talk) 15:26, 29 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Translation needed

The German-language page is much more comprehensive. LeadSongDog 19:33, 22 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes I agree, the German page needs to be translated. Aberjan (talk) 20:17, 13 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Similar name

I realise that there is a link to other people with the same surname, but it might be useful to state explicitly that Walter Karl Koch, rather than Robert Koch was responsible for naming Koch's triangle. After all, they were both German, both involved in medicine - it might avoid confusion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.100.45.121 (talk) 20:33, 28 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Vibrio cholerae

In this edit's comment a question was asked that needs a response. The distinction amongst the organisms is that not all Vibrio are V. cholerae. Is there something in the article that makes this unclear? User:LeadSongDog come howl 04:03, 16 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.6.181.193 (talk) 05:51, 6 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Monument out of whack

The editing of the final section is out of order -- talking about the monument delay before the reason for it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.230.117.5 (talk) 16:04, 10 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Discovered the cause of cholera?

Did he realy discover V. cholera? see http://www.ph.ucla.edu/epi/snow/firstdiscoveredcholera.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by Healkids (talk • contribs) 04:57, 6 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

gopal gondhia

he was a great man — Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.182.7.18 (talk) 10:44, 16 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Cholera / Filippo Pacini

Shouldnt there be a bit at the beginning and/or in the section about Cholera about Filippo Pacini, the Italian who was actually the first person to isolate the cholera bacilus? I thik there should be... ΤΕΡΡΑΣΙΔΙΩΣ(^Ταλκ) 18:28, 30 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Techniques

Maybe highlight more his use of agar as a growth medium and his invention of bacterial stains? — Preceding unsigned comment added by GhostInTheMachine (talk • contribs) 18:32, 2 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

African Slave Subjects

That seems like an odd "fact" to include in the opening paragraph, and then not have any follow-up in the remainder of the article. Is this simply a case of article vandalism? Or can this be backed up with sources? --184.64.110.38 (talk) 06:04, 10 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I completely agree. The citation is not clear and it sounds like bullshit. To make an accusation like this, which is what this statement amounts to, you need to back it up.

Here is a link with more information about Koch and experimentation on human subjects, a short article based on the research findings of at least one historian, Jürgen Zimmerer, Professor for World History at Hamburg University:

https://www.spiegel.de/geschichte/robert-koch-der-beruehmte-forscher-und-die-menschenexperimente-in-afrika-a-769a5772-5d02-4367-8de0-928320063b0a

This article mentions that all of the colonial powers collaborated in medical research and experimentation in Africa. Such experimentation was a much broader phenomenon than Robert Koch. I suggest it would make sense for someone to provide a Wikipedia article on colonial medical research in Africa. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.134.177.237 (talk) 18:33, 27 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@94.134.177.237: Oops, I did not see that you already mentioned this article published on www.spiegel.de when I wrote my comment in the section below this one, using exactly the same article. Maybe, using this article, we can include information on the tests on humans Koch seems to have carried out in the Wikipedia article. Let's see if anybody responds to the request for help in the section below and provides additional sources. --Margo1724 (talk) 16:41, 14 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Experimenting on humans

Which citation contains the information that Koch experimented on humans? It is not clear, and an assertion like this needs to be CRYSTAL CLEAR as to where this information comes from. Otherwise it should be removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.138.90.156 (talk) 06:11, 10 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

In the German-language Wikipedia article there is a link to a magazine article stating that Koch was testing drugs with grave side effects, including death in some cases, on African patients without their consent: https://www.spiegel.de/geschichte/robert-koch-der-beruehmte-forscher-und-die-menschenexperimente-in-afrika-a-769a5772-5d02-4367-8de0-928320063b0a, accessed October 14, 2020. It appeared on the website of the German news magazine "Der Spiegel". ("Der Spiegel" also has an English-language website, https://www.spiegel.de/international, but unfortunately they haven't translated this article into English, it seems.) Although "Der Spiegel" is a general news magazine and neither a specialist journal for history nor for medicine, according to the Encyclopaedia Britannica it is "widely respected both for its coverage of news events and news analysis [...], and it is generally regarded as one of the best news weeklies in Europe" (https://www.britannica.com/topic/Der-Spiegel-German-magazine, accessed October 14, 2020). The article about Koch was written by a professor of history at the University of Hamburg, according to "Der Spiegel". Although a specialist publication would be a better source, I think we could consider this one sufficiently reliable, couldn't we?

Wikipedia user @LawrenceNicolasHall: has tried to add a remark about Koch's non-ethical testing of drugs on humans (https://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=Robert_Koch&diff=prev&oldid=982282958), but in the next edit (@2600:1007:b1ac:a76a:2414:4156:93aa:6353:) his remark was changed to such a degree, that it now sounds like a regular, ordinary medical procedure to me. He cited an article by Al Jazeera written in English: https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2020/10/6/when-africa-was-a-german-laboratory/, accessed October 14, 2020 (see also the Encyclopaedia Britannica article on Al Jazeera: https://www.britannica.com/topic/Al-Jazeera).

Taking into account the two sources mentioned, I think we can reasonably assume that the assertion that Robert Koch tested drugs on humans against their will and with a racist attitude towards Africans is not just some unbased fringe theory and should definitely be included in the Wikipedia article. Any further inquiries into the matter and especially reliable specialist sources would be very welcome, so, fellow Wikipedians, if you are knowledgeable about history or medicine or have access to reliable sources, please help. (You might have thought about consulting the Encyclopaedia Britannica on Robert Koch, but at least the online version does not mention the matter either, see https://www.britannica.com/biography/Robert-Koch, accessed October 14, 2020.) --Margo1724 (talk) 15:59, 14 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Sources on Koch's testing of drugs on humans

In this section I am trying to start a collection of reliable sources that could be used for writing about the topic in the Wikipedia article on Koch. Please help by adding new sources. Thank you. --Margo1724 (talk) 19:21, 14 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. There deserves to be studies on the bad influences from Koch. I don't have the resources to do it myself, but there are some suggestions. TomS TDotO (talk) 20:12, 11 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Written in English

by Al Jazeera: https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2020/10/6/when-africa-was-a-german-laboratory/, archived version in the Internet Archive (I don't know very much about Al Jazeera, so I cannot guarantee that it is reliable.) --Margo1724 (talk) 19:21, 14 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
by the Robert Koch Institute: https://www.rki.de/EN/Content/Institute/History/Robert_Koch_en.html, archived version in the Internet Archive (Search the text for "Atoxyl" in order to find the part of the text dealing with the topic. There is also a text on the German version of the website, see below. The English version (perhaps a translation of an earlier German version) misses a crucial sentence that only appears in the German version: "Jeder zehnte Patient stirbt." (One in ten patients dies.)) --Margo1724 (talk) 19:21, 14 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Written in other languages

in German, by Der Spiegel: https://www.spiegel.de/geschichte/robert-koch-der-beruehmte-forscher-und-die-menschenexperimente-in-afrika-a-769a5772-5d02-4367-8de0-928320063b0a, archived version in the Internet Archive --Margo1724 (talk) 19:21, 14 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
in German, by the Robert Koch Institute: https://www.rki.de/DE/Content/Institut/Geschichte/Bildband_Salon/1911-1920.html, archived version in the Internet Archive (Search the text for "Atoxyl" in order to find the part of the text dealing with the topic.) --Margo1724 (talk) 19:21, 14 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
These three German-speaking historians seem to be researching the topic: Jürgen Zimmerer, Philipp Osten and Christoph Gradmann. Perhaps someone would like to search journals or library catalogues for publications of Zimmerer, Osten and Gradmann about Robert Koch or about health in the former German colonies? (Maybe they also published in English.) --Margo1724 (talk) 21:07, 14 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Those legendary postulates: "gold standard", or obsolete?

This article: "Koch's postulates ... remain today the "gold standard" in medical microbiology."

Koch's postulates article: "Koch's postulates have been recognized as largely obsolete by epidemiologists since the 1950s."

So which article (or both?) needs correction?

(I suspect the "gold standard" characterization is from a non-neutral biography/hagiography ref.)

Reminiscent of logos of the Bohr model still the "gold standard" in the popular imagination. Richard J Kinch (talk) 08:05, 26 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

--2001:4898:80E8:1:D4AA:F8BB:4D86:58CD (talk) 04:53, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

First wife

Name	Adolfine Sophie Emilie Fraatz
Gender	weiblich (Female)
Marriage Age	20
Event Type	Heirat (Marriage)
Birth Date	09 Feb 1847 (9 Feb 1847)
Marriage Date	16 Juli 1867
Marriage Place	Hannover, Hannover, Deutschland (Germany)
Father	Wilhelm Christian Friedrich Fraatz
Mother	Louise Margarethe Fraatz
Spouse	Hermann Heinrich Robert Koch
Author	Evangelische Kirche Sankt Andreasberg (Kr. Zellerfeld)
City or District	Clausthal, Kr, Sankt Andreasberg u. Zellerfeld
Parish as it Appears	Uausthal
Page number	106;106

2603:9001:6E0B:2694:CC89:814C:353A:24F1 (talk) 22:52, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Children

He had only one child her name was Gertrude165.73.58.190 (talk) 18:54, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Controvery

There is considerable controversy about Koch's lapses in ethics, particularly with regard to his behavior in German East Africa. Whether or not he was more racist than others in the west in the 19th century. It should have some mention here. Unfortunately, I do not feel up to the task. Perhaps it could be mentioned about his work was abused in the early 20th century, including in the teaching of medicine, such as resulting in xenophobic practices against non-western peoples. TomS TDotO (talk) 22:07, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]