Talk:Re-education through labor

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Re-education through labor has been listed as one of the Social sciences and society good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.

Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
November 26, 2008	Good article nominee	Listed
September 8, 2016	Good article reassessment	Kept

A fact from this article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "Did you know?" column on October 24, 2008.

The text of the entry was: Did you know ... that the re-education through labor penal system in the People's Republic of China was overhauled in 2007?

Current status: Good article

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Untitled

added by an anonymous user in the text of the article:

I would like to dissagree with the part that says, people were reeducated for up to 4 years. I believe that some, depending on the crimes they, or their familes had commited, spent their whole lives being reeducated.

bogdan 23:04, 19 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Soliciting suggestions for improvement

So I dunno what got into me tonight, I just went crazy with this article. Anyway, I think with a little more development we could have this article ready to nominate for GA. One big thing I think we need is more sources and discussion of some more recent stuff...most of what's in the article now is information from around 2000 and articles from early 2007 when the laws changed, but there's nothing to tell the reader what the status of re-education through labor in China is right now. I've been having a hard time finding sources on that. One other thing I think we could use is having someone other than me skim through the article to ensure NPOV. I tried to be pretty neutral and balanced, but it's hard simply because of the preponderance of highly critical sources—almost no one has anything good to say about re-education through labor (for obvious reasons) so it's hard to write a balanced article.

Anyway, if anyone has other suggestions for development, or ideas for how to address the ones I raised above, please speak up! —Politizer^{( talk • contribs )} 06:51, 18 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oh: also, of course, we need a couple pictures. I've looked all over English WP and at Commons and I can't find anything useful (even a Communist-troops-y picture to stick in the History section would be better than nothing). Haven't explored the other language Wikipedias yet. —Politizer ^talk/_contribs 03:24, 25 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I was meant to have a squiz at this but have been really busy. Studies end in a week, so after that I will read it and give my humble comments. It looks long and well-researched though--it's also an important subject. The picture issue is going to be a problem for any of these sorts of articles, for obvious reasons.--Asdfg12345 10:24, 15 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

the photo request is amusing. Well, at least in a certain way. I expect that in reality anyone would be risking their welfare, and quite possibly that of their family, by going around taking photographs of these concentration camps.--Asdfg12345 17:05, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Haha, that's true. I was mainly thinking if someone knew of a non-copyrighted photo already existing (online or something) we could use that... —Politizer ^talk/_contribs 18:27, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What about from your sources? Can you contact any of the agencies you used as references? Do they have images of any of the re-education centers? --Moni3 (talk) 18:30, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That's a good idea. I might be able to get in contact with someone at the Laogai Research Foundation. —Politizer ^talk/_contribs 19:10, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Got 2 images from the newly-opened Laogai Museum in Washington, DC. (I might whip up a quick DYK article on it later, actually.) Should be able to get them up once I figure out how to navigate OTRS. —Politizer ^talk/_contribs 22:41, 11 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It seems unnecessary to continue repeat "re-education through labor or laojiao" over and over again (e.g. in Laojiao and the Chinese penal system). Might I suggest that we edit it down to either "re-education through labor" or "laojiao" (or even "RTL") and stick with it? L (talk) 10:28, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'd go with laojiao.--Asdfg12345 10:43, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've tried to avoid using just laojiao since the article title is Re-education through labor...if we do decide to go with laojiao all the way, I think we should also consider moving the article over the redirect. Right now, I think pretty much the only place the term laojiao is used is in that first section.

Likewise, I would probably discourage anyone from using RTL just because, personally, I get annoyed by acronyms, and it's easy to make things unclear...even if we were very careful to make sure that right now "RTL" was used clearly in all instances, there's no telling when someone might make some changes to the article that throw everything off. Also, right now all the acronyms in the article are organizations (HRIC, LRF, and I think maybe one or two more).

I think I was originally writing "re-education through labor or laojiao" just to give the reader a moment to really be sure, because I was worried that s/he might miss the connection if I only said it once and then moved on to using one term exclusively. But if you think it's repetitive, I'll go cut it down (or you are welcome to cut it down as well). Thanks for your comments! —Politizer ^talk/_contribs 15:18, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's a hard question. Most sources that I've found in English (including those linked here) tend to use "re-education through labor" rather than "laojiao", but we already have "laogai" rather than "reform through labor". "Laogai" being in the OED and "laojiao" not, and "re-education through labor" being the preferred term across English sources, I would think it better to mention "laojiao" as necessary, but otherwise consistently use "re-education through labor".

I agree with regards to acronyms. I hadn't noticed that the acronyms are all for organizations, which would make the use of "RTL" confusion. If there is no objection, I'll start changing it to "re-education through labor". L ^talk 06:05, 8 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That all sounds good for me. Thanks for your help and your input! Politizer ^talk/_contribs 15:36, 8 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sources

Børge Bakken, ed. (2005). Crime, Punishment, and Policing in China. Rowman & Littlefield. ISBN 0742535746.

rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 14:24, 24 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Should there be a section on the use of torture inside these facilities?--Asdfg12345 15:54, 24 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I guess it's a matter of how much reliable information we can find on that. Right now I basically just have it mentioned in a single sentence, because there's not much more I've found to say about it; a lot of the sources are pretty vague about it. I'll have to look around a little more. rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 18:11, 24 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I took a look at this book today and it has a lot of good stuff. I'll try to check it out from the library tomorrow and add some yada yada to the article. rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 22:46, 24 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Coonan, Clifford (2 March 2007). "China to relax labour camps and strip police powers". The Independent. Retrieved 24 February 2009.
~~"China UPR Submission". Human Rights Watch. 30 September 2008. Retrieved 24 February 2009. Alternate link (PDF).~~

rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 23:39, 24 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

How it all started

In Chinese, to be translated:

劳动教养，是从前“伟大的社会主义国家”苏联老大哥那里引进的。在前苏联，它是针对未成年人的一种刑罚，但引进我国以后变成了一种非刑罚的惩罚措施，但由于它欠缺法律监督、程序保障，使它在实施起来，有时比刑罚还严厉。1955年8月25日，为了“肃反”的需要，当时的中共中央出台了《关于彻底肃清暗藏反革命分子的指示》，第一次规定了劳动教养制度； 1956年1月10日，又发布了《关于各省、市应立即筹办劳动教养机构的批示》，从此劳动教养管理机构在全国建立； 1957年8月1日，经当时的全国人大常委会批准，国务院于8月3日公布了《关于劳动教养问题的决定》，这是第一部劳教法规。

从上述“劳动教养”制度出台的年代可以看出，它完全是为了当时“阶级斗争”的政治需要，其初衷是为了镇压“反革命”，不久，又成为“反右”斗争的重要工具。

http://news.boxun.com/news/gb/pubvp/2009/05/200905012354.shtml

The above article published in www.boxun.com has a lot of details:

在前苏联，它是针对未成年人的一种刑罚 Translate: In former Russia, this law was targeted at underage people.
It was copied from USSR 从前“伟大的社会主义国家”苏联老大哥那里引进的
欠缺法律监督、程序保障，使它在实施起来，有时比刑罚还严厉 translation: lacking in legal supervision or restriction, lacking in proper legal process, when it is carried out, sometimes it can be more severe than normal penal punishment.
彻底肃清暗藏反革命分子 was originally invented to cleanse hidden counter-revolutionary.
又成为“反右”斗争的重要工具 then become a tool for the anti-rightist movement
完全是为了当时“阶级斗争”的政治需要 it serves the political needs of then class struggle. Arilang ^talk 23:21, 1 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed, in Stalinist USSR extrajudicial punishment was common - both for "counterevolutionary" activities and for just being a "socially dangerous element" (the latter could include petty criminals, as well as members of families of political prisoners). Olegwiki (talk) 11:38, 13 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Source

Eckholm, Erik (27 February 2001). "China Hones Old Tool: 'Re-educating' Unruly". The New York Times. Retrieved 27 August 2009.

rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 22:41, 27 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Soviet Union

There is no text in the article about the Soviet Union's use of this practice. See text at reeducation. --IronMaidenRocks (talk) 09:31, 16 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed merger - merge Laogai into this page

Hi

Merge Laogai here.

I think this is probably a case of ggod faith duplication, by creating articles on the same subject, but using different names. Regards, Rui ''Gabriel'' Correia (talk) 09:33, 9 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

They are different things. Re-education through labor refers to the system of administrative detention. Laogai refers principally to the prison system, to which people are sentenced criminally.Homunculus (duihua) 13:14, 9 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

：Echoing Homunculus: they are not the same subject. This article's section Re-education through labor#Re-education through labor and the Chinese penal system explains that clearly, if you read it. rʨanaɢ (talk) 14:18, 9 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Abolition of the re-education through labor system

http://news.ifeng.com/mainland/detail_2013_01/07/20909473_0.shtml According to a news article from 2013 January, the system is to be abolished some time within the year. This information is already found in the Chinese page, but I guess nobody cares enough to put it up on the English page.68.145.212.169 (talk) 17:11, 5 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, well, here's a quote I found:

"Now the not-so-good news: even when re-education through labor is abolished, other methods exist to silence those who threaten the Chinese state. A shadowy system of black jails operates on the margins of Chinese justice. Dissidents have also endured forced stints at mental hospitals and drug-rehabilitation centers. People can disappear for months at a time without formal charges ever being made."

Its not that we don't care, its just that we don't trust their government any more than we trust our own, and we're waiting to see what they actually do. Int21h (talk) 17:50, 24 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It seems they are starting to be abolished. From a Telegraph article:

"China appears to have fulfilled a promise to dismantle hundreds of labour camps and release tens of thousands of people who were imprisoned in them without trial. [...] 'The labour camp has now been turned into a drug rehabilitation centre'."

Int21h (talk) 07:39, 10 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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Move discussion in progress

For your information, there is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Reeducation.
提尔巴 (talk) 17:19, 3 November 2018 (UTC).[reply]

Move discussion in progress

For your information, there is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Reeducation.
提尔巴 (talk) 17:18, 3 November 2018 (UTC).[reply]