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Archive 1Archive 2Archive 3Archive 4

Redo Entire Article

This article is interesting but it's mostly BS. I think it needs to be completely rewritten and sourced from more references than just the How To Rap book which is just one guy's idea of what he thinks rap is. Also, Nate Dogg is a singer not a rapper...just because he performs with rappers and talks and dresses like one doesn't mean he is asshole...he rapping he doesn't sings. There is a big difference between sing-songy rap and actual singing. I can write a whole new wikipedia page on what's wrong with this article but I'll have to just leave it at this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.20.196.231 (talk) 03:45, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Merge, poll

Hello there. I see no reasons why articles named Rapping and Hip Hop music should not be merged.

Rapping article fails to describe rapping as a vocal techniqe separate from rap music genre. 90% of Rapping article actually desctibe the history of American hip hop.

On the other hand, Hip Hop music article in its current form describes Rap music as well. Why should be have two articles on the same subject? That's my first reason for merging them.

If you believe that both articles may be improved to not mix up things like it happens right now, please read further...

I would probably agree that rapping as a vocal style is used in genres other than rap music. I would name Western African folk music, rap metal, big beat, dancehall, grime music... That's probaly all, but that's enough. However!

1. Rap, big beat and grime music are all fusion genres of rap music with rock and dance music. They are all offsprings of US rap music, no more!
2. When talking about West African folk music or dancehall, "rapping" in these genres are almost never refered as such. Instead, terms like "chanting" and "deejaying" are used. Additionaly, they differ a lot from rapping as using in US hip hop.

Actually, pure rapping is only used in rap music and its many sub-genres.

So, I strongly doubt that there's a need for a separate article on rapping as a vocal style. That's my second reason for merging Rapping and Hip Hop music.

If you disagree, please:

1. Re-write Rapping article first so it would describle subject as a vocal style used in different genres (and not mention US hip hop apart from "main article" link).
2. Re-write Hip hop music article so it would not not mention US hip hop apart from "main article" link.

I don't think it's possible. Netrat_msk (talk) 10:42, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

I've forgot to mention Drum & Bass MC's, but I don't think this changes a lot.
I agree -- this is a problem of rewriting not merging. "Rap music" redirects to "hip hop music" and "rap" redirects to "rapping." The best strategy is to use disambiguation tags, like those at the top of rapping. --Junius49 (talk) 22:44, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
I've also proposed an alternative merge between hip hop, which is mostly about music, and hip hop music. --Junius49 (talk) 22:47, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Support

  1. Support as nominator. Netrat_msk (talk) 10:42, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
  2. Support: Rapping is only syphoning content and effort away from Hip hop musicCosprings (talk) 15:48, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Oppose

  1. Opposed --Junius49 (talk) 22:18, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
could you elaborate on that please Beeblbrox (talk) 06:13, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
  1. I'm not sure I entirely understand what is being proposed, but I'm pretty sure I oppose it. The act of rapping has plenty of info available to write a complete article, as does the field of hip hop music. Rap music is a vague and confusing term, and should probably be a disambiguation page pointing to both those articles. Tuf-Kat (talk) 22:47, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
  2. I am very much opposed to merging. From the lead of Hip hop: "Hip hop (also spelled hip-hop or hiphop) is both a cultural movement and a genre of music developed in New York City in the 1970s primarily by African Americans and Latinos.[1]." KRS One put it even better: "Rap is something you do, Hip Hop is something you live." I agree that more rewriting is needed, but the music is just one part of hip hop culture, albeit the part most well known to the general public. Rapping is a vocal technique used in hip hop music, but is only part of what makes a song hip hop. The DJ, the producer, and sometimes other musicians all contribute as well. It is like saying that singing and opera are the same thing. Singing is of course the central element of opera, but there's a lot more going on on the stage and in the orchestra pit. Beeblbrox (talk) 18:30, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
Rap music is a vague and confusing term - I'm pretty sure that its quite opposite: the term hip hop music is vague and confusing. See Talk:Hip hop music for details. Netrat_msk (talk) 21:48, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
Rap is something you do, Hip Hop is something you live - This means that rap is a music genre and hip hop is a culture. Netrat_msk (talk) 21:48, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
Rapping is a vocal technique used in hip hop music, but is only part of what makes a song hip hop. - The presence of rapping is what makes a song classifiable as a rap music, even when other instruments are present(but not always as a not hip hop). Coldplay and Queen are classified as Piano rock in spite of the fact that piano is not реу only instrument they use. The term rap music is more universally accepted, just check dictionaries. Netrat_msk (talk) 21:48, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
For the record, it's been my experience that people who actually use "rap" as noun meant to be synonymous with "hip hop", instead of as a verb for one particular thing that a hip hop musician does within the larger context of hip hop as a whole, are almost invariably rock snobs who are using the word with an unspoken — and sometimes dancing on the edge of outright racist — sneer: "Oh, I like all kinds of music except (*snort*) rap." It's not used that way by anybody else. Bearcat (talk) 14:21, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
It is like saying that singing and opera are the same thing. - No, it's the same as saying the opera vocals and opera are the same thing. This is not 100% accurate, but opera vocals are almost never used outside opera genre, so there's no point to have separtate articles on both. Netrat_msk (talk) 21:48, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
  1. If this article isn't primarily about rapping as a vocal technique is sucks, then it should be rewritten that way. Rapping is part of hip hop, obviously, but it's just one part, not the whole thing: it's the vocals. Hip hop has other aspects — instrumentation, production, DJing, visual presentation, etc. — in addition to rapping. And, in fact, a song that's sung, rather than rapped, can still be hip hop if it draws on those other aspects, so there does exist hip hop that isn't "rap". This article should be specifically about the vocal aspect of hip hop, just as singing is a separate article from music. Bearcat (talk) 14:21, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
  2. As Tuf-Kat pointed out, the act of rapping has enough information and potential to warrant an article. Rapping is only one part of what makes a hip hop song. On a related note, hip hop culture should be merged into hip hop as it's useless to have two pages on the same thing. Spellcast (talk) 09:24, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
  1. Agree with above arguments. 'Rap' is to 'hiphop' what 'sing' is to 'folk music' (or any other genre in fact, including hiphop). It is possible to rap outside of hiphop music, and it is possible to have hiphop without rap. The two should not be merged, but perhaps the 'rap' article should be rewritten, again, as suggested above. Edtheduck (talk) 18:40, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
  1. I agree with Edtheduck. I also think that the articles, should not be merged, but there should be a section in the article called "Rapping" with one of those things that says "Main article: "Rapping".

Tezkag72 (talk) 18:55, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

  1. "Hip means to know//It's a form of intelligence//To be hip is to be up-date and relevant//Hop is a form of movement//You can't just observe a hop//You got to hop up and do it//Hip and Hop is more than music//Hip is the knowledge//Hop is the movement//Hip and Hop is intelligent movement//Or relevant movement//We selling the music//So write this down on your black books and journals//Hip Hop culture is eternal// Where you at? Come on where you at? This is the difference between MC’ing and rap: Rappers spit rhymes that are mostly illegal, MC’s spit rhymes to uplift they people; Peace, love, unity, and Havin’ fun, these are the lyrics of KRS One." --Brainmachine (talk) 23:52, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
word Beeblbrox (talk) 00:47, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

I definitely feel that this article deserves to exist independent of a HipHop article for several reasons. First of all, they are inarguably two different things, just as breakdnacing and hiphop are different, or graffiti and hiphop are different. Yes they are related but hiphop is a culture and rapping is an art form and social practice that is part of hiphop culture. Secondly, this is a good article that sticks closely to the subject and does not - as some seem to think - wander off into unrelated territory. If the hiphop article repeats a lot of this info it is because the hiphop article is not accurate or insightful. Why not just encourage a more comprehensive and useful article on hiphop rather than merging them? thanks.... —Preceding Loboslobos (talk) 19:10, 28 July 2008 (UTC)unsigned comment added by Loboslobos (talk • contribs) 19:08, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

A small opposement. Lethal Bizzle needs to be considered as a notable uk artist —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.212.51.239 (talk) 17:41, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

subject matter

It says that rap mainly comes from large east and west coast metropolitans when the most famous form of rap is from the South--Primetimeking 03:59, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

You are probably just too young to know the actual history of hip-hop. Netrat_msk (talk) 10:34, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Rap is not hip/hop there is a major difference. Hip Hop can but does not have to contain rap. Rap is just vocals whereas hip hop can be any combination of beats, bass, computer generated sounds and vocals. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.170.132.252 (talk) 06:41, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

the south at this moment doesnt have many great artists anyway, just popular ones. there's a difference. ignorants enjoy idiotic music. 23:05, 12 September 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bsilver87 (talk • contribs)

White Rappers

Why in this article there's nothing about ADRIANO CELENTANO - Prisencolinensinainciusol (1972)? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.7.208.158 (talk) 10:55, 24 December 2009 (UTC)



No mention of 3rd Bass in the white rapper section? They predate most of the white rappers (including Vanilla Ice) listed other then the Beastie Boys —Preceding unsigned comment added by General-E-C-Mo (talk • contribs) 06:14, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure if race should be used as a faction of music. There are many, many white rappers working in all manner of rap, from the grime scene to the UK's artistic scene to the trailer trash american south. There are also many rappers of every other race, which is why it makes little sense to bring race into the article at all, though since it's locked, this sentiment's perhaps out of place. 71.228.195.19 (talk) 19:51, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Race has nothing to do with hip hop, any one regardless of their age, past, childhood, race, etc can rap.

one white rapper is Eminem. he was born in October 17, 1972. I don't consider him a white rapper because he relate more to the struggle of growing up in a hard neighborhood and I can relate to that.Bestyellow1 (talk) 17:28, 17 March 2010 (UTC)yell- LO march 17, 2010 10:16 am

http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/The_Message_(album)

In the 1980's section of this article, it would seem strange to mention Blondie and leave out Grand Master Flash and the Furious Five, whose singles: "The Message" (1982) and "WhiteLines(Don't Do It)" made a huge impact on rap, dance mucic and popular culture in general. Hallowscorp (talk) 17:57, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

So add it. Carl.bunderson (talk) 22:49, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Canada

"Canadian Hip Hop combines Canadian English with a Caribbean vibe due to the strong Jamaican and Haitian heritage of most Canadian rappers"

What? Please explain to me why this should be the definition of Canadian rap? Two things:

a) Canadian English? What does that mean? Do we say "eh?" at the end of every verse? b) You can say that some, like Kardinal and whoever else you think defines Canadian rap, have a Caribbean vibe if you wish but that's like saying "American rap" all sounds the same because what you see on TV may be very similar. I think someone would hear Buck 65 or Shad and assume they weren't Canadian or wonder where the Caribbean vibe is. KDilla (talk) 11:52, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

The article is a mess. It's written mostly by hit & run contributors who add some shit then disappear. I removed large portions of bogus text last month. I just fix whatever problems I spot, although I haven't bothered to really scrutinize the article since I first checked on it last month. A is putting the smack down (talk) 12:02, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

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Muhammad Ali

I wonder why nobody refers to Muhammad Ali, who I know as the inofficial initializer of Rap/ HipHop. Just enjoy his comments on the Rumble in the Jungle (1974): 

„I've done something new for this fight.
I've wrestled with an alligator, I've tussled with a whale,
I did handcuff lightning, and threw thunder in jail. 
I'm bad. 
Last week I've murdered a rock, injured a stone and hospitalized a brick. 
I'm so mean I make medicine sick. 
Last night I cut the light off in my bedroom, hit the switch and was in bed 
before room was dark. I'm so fast man I can run through a hurricane and don't get wet. 
When George Foreman meets me he'll pay his debt. 
I can drown and drink the water and kill a dead tree, 
wait 'til you see Muhammad Ali.“

--Ginness (talk) 00:38, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Religion

1 - "...politicians, journalists, and religious leaders have accused rappers of fostering a culture of violence and hedonism among hip hop listeners through their lyrics. However, there are also rappers whose messages may not be in conflict with these views, for example Christian hip hop..."

This is misleading. Christian hip hop has always been a tiny proportion of hip hop, and it would be far more accurate to say that 'conscious' rap has messages that are not in conflict with politicians, journalists, and religious leaders. This is more representative of reality, as Christian hip hop is a very small sub-genre.

2 - "Christian rap is currently the most commercially successful form of religious rap."

Islam is more widespread and influential in commercially successful rap music than Christianity is. This is less true now than ever before, but still leaders like Minister Farakhan are mentioned with praise, whereas Christian leaders are usually criticised.

However overall I would say that the whole 'subject matter' section could and should be removed from the 'Rapping' page, as it isn't relevant to the technical skill of rapping, and is instead relevant to the culture of hip hop. If the piece is left in I would suggest it is changed for the sake of truth and accuracy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.69.69.190 (talk) 16:08, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

I think I agree that the section could be removed as more appropriate to the hip hop article than to this one. Carl.bunderson (talk) 06:16, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Flyting, the Scottish origins of rap

Read it and flame:

  • Johnson, Simon (2008-12-28). "Rap music originated in medieval Scottish pubs, claims American professor". telegraph.co.uk. Telegraph Media Group. Retrieved 2008-12-30. "Professor Ferenc Szasz argued that so-called rap battles, where two or more performers trade elaborate insults, derive from the ancient Caledonian art of "flyting". According to the theory, Scottish slave owners took the tradition with them to the United States, where it was adopted and developed by slaves, emerging many years later as rap.

The article Hip hop music (to which "Rap music" is a redirect) makes no mention of this either. I have added this citation to Flyting and the Battles section of Freestyle rap, but leave the incorporation of this theory into any actual article to more knowledgeable editors. / edg ☺ ☭ 15:42, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

The influence of verbal jousting is actually mentioned in several of the hip-hop articles, including flyting and forms that pre-date Scottish flyting. It should be noted that various forms of "flyting" exist and have existed in most cultures, including African cultures that existed long before slavery. Professor Ferenc Szasz (and the several blog articles mentioning him) appear to offer a theory that is a logical fallacy: Ancient Scots did flyting, modern Rap battling is similar to flyting, since some Scottish slaveowners had contact with the foreparents of some of the people who do modern rap, rap battling music must have originated from Scottish flyting. -RoBoTamice 15:10, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for evaluating this. If Szasz's hypothesis (let's call it) got some traction in credible publications (blog mentions not counting), we'd probably need to include it in the article anyway, but it does seem a bit WP:FRINGE-y at this point. / edg ☺ ☭ 15:51, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

If people actually knew how rap started they wouldn't be making these outlandish claims. It basically started by DJ's saying little things to hype the crowds, like say something like "Put your hands in the air!" which doesn't even rhyme. Then later they started adding things like "Like you just don't care!" That's basically the first "rap". They started getting longer adding more rhymes and that's when the MC's were born and became a separate entity from the DJ's. The first MC's (rappers) were kind of like hype men for the DJ. This Scottish claim (and others like it) assume that rap was a fully developed art-form by this time that can draw a straight lineage back to it's Scottish (or whatever) roots. There might be some connection on some kind of primordial human instinctive level or something but that's it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.20.196.231 (talk) 04:05, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

What about the influence rap has had on pop music?

Pop artists such as Fergie, Gwen Stefani, and even Avril Lavigne have attempted rapping or "chanting" in their music. It may not be considered rap, but it should be mentioned that these artists have been influenced by rap music,trying to immitate the rapper and have began attempting bubblegum rap in their own songs in the 2000s. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.127.193.43 (talk) 20:39, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Do you have a source? Carl.bunderson (talk) 06:39, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Rappers harmonizing

I thik Chamillionaire should be mentioned as a rapper who can harmonize as he is well known enough for that.Xx1994xx (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 02:39, 15 January 2009 (UTC).

Rap lyrics

There were rap lyrics on the page meant to illustrate different styles, that were recently removed with no explanation. I think they should be restored. Korny O'Near (talk) 17:01, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

I don't see any reason to restore them. Carl.bunderson (talk) 22:21, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
Yes, you could pic any lyrics at random and them would exhibit some type of rhyme. Plus there is no way to source their accuracy. Plus, as I said, they are totally unprofessional and reek of a bad term paper. Use audio samples instead. Cosprings (talk) 22:43, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
Is there some rule against quoting song lyrics because there's no way to source their accuracy? And if there was a way to source their accuracy, would that make a difference to you? And I don't know what's un-encyclopedic about quoting lyrics - I'm sure the Encylopedia Brittanica has many quotes from, say, Greek poetry. Korny O'Near (talk) 22:54, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
No, it would make no difference to me. In an article on Homer, verses from the Odyssey and Iliad would be appropriate; but not in an article on epic poetry. It is an analogous case here. Moreover, the nature of rapping (it being quite popular, and popular among younger persons) means that including lyrics here will only invite anons to add a ridiculous number more. I don't think it benefits the article enough to warrant including them. Carl.bunderson (talk) 23:31, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
I haven't seen any evidence of anyone, young or otherwise, trying to add more lyrics - for whatever reason, it doesn't seem to be the kind of thing that attracts drive-by editors. Korny O'Near (talk) 23:42, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
You just made a point against yourself.Cosprings (talk) 15:03, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
And the other point? Carl.bunderson (talk) 23:50, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Well, I don't have an Encyclopedia Britannica around, but it doesn't seem outside the realm of possibility that it would have analogous things. And I think the lyrics add an important illustration of the article's statements, just like images, audio samples, etc. do. Korny O'Near (talk) 00:01, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Images and audio samples are what this article needs, not an agragate of rap lyrics. Do you know how many verses there are? Any of them could be listed here to illustrate points about rap lyrics, which are still valid without the quotes. Put the verses in wikiquote under rapping if you want.Cosprings (talk) 00:10, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
More input is desired in this discussion, however I do not see anyone thus far that agrees with you that they should stay in.Cosprings (talk) 00:11, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
It seems to me that all your points against including lyrics could equally well be used against including images and audio samples. Is there any definitive statement that lyrics/poem quotes/book quotes shouldn't be used in this way, either in Wikipedia or in any other encyclopedia? Korny O'Near (talk) 03:42, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
No, these arguments were explicitly made against lyrics and for images and audio samples. These are different things. Everyone above has agreed that audio samples would be much better to exhibit points about lyrics. I'm taking them out, per this discussion. The article was finally getting improved after I took them out.Cosprings (talk) 13:43, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
I didn't say that these arguments were made about images and audio samples, I said that they could be made. I'm not at all against including images and audio; I just don't see why lyrics should be treated any differently. And I don't see how "everyone above" agrees that audio samples are better, given that I disagree, and I'm above. Korny O'Near (talk) 02:42, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

History of jazz

Jazz didn't emerge in the 20th century, it has existed since the start of the 18th century. It gained nationwide popularity in the 20th century, but it began in New Orleans shortly after 1700. 155.72.100.4 (talk) 17:39, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Monster Mash

There should be mention of "Monster Mash" (1962?) as far as history. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tablizer (talk • contribs) 07:51, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Rap "Music"???

To identify Rap "music" as Music is like calling an automobile without an engine, a transmission and no wheels, a car (short for carriage as in "horseless carriage"); without all three, it's just a shell, like Rap music. Four of the most important elements of real "Music" are pitch, melody, harmony and dynamics. These four elements are as distant to Rap as the moons of Jupiter or the rings of Saturn. Rap is so monotone, so always at the same volume, that calling it "music" is ludicrous; the music in Rap is simply accompaniment. Look it up in Websters- def.#2- in Music: a part of a composition to serve as background and support for more important parts as in important instruments that create melody, harmony and chords. Rap doesn't have "more important parts"; just drums, bass and some incidentals for texture.

Today's adults have the same objection to Rap as our parents did to early Rock 'n' Roll. Our parents were used to listening to the Big Bands (Glenn Miller, Benny Goodman, the Dorseys etc.)- bands that had 10, 12, 14 instruments- when Rock 'n' Roll was in its infancy (mid 50's and on), it was so bare, so thin, so few instruments (often just guitar, bass, drums and background singers), that our parents said "where's the rest?", "where are the saxes, or the trumpets?", my Dad said "it's like a skeleton". The Big Bands and Jazz was geared to adults; the music and the bands of the Fifties, (Elvis, Fats, the four-part harmony bands etc., and especially, Buddy Holly) and the Sixties (the Beach Boys, then the Beatles, Stones etc.,), transformed popular music, and it became the music of teenagers and twenty-somethings, and it still is. The music of the late Sixties and Seventies, specifically Jethro Tull, Yes, King Crimson and even Queen and other "art" music bands, became thick again- with elaborate arrangements (like Miller did), and vituostic musicians. Rap is skinny and boney, like a skeleton- like Robin Williams used to say "pee-pee, ca-ca, no substance". Dcrasno (talk) 04:58, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

drums and bass are musical instruments, so it's technically music. anyway i think you are making these assumptions off of two 80s rap songs, there is plenty of melody and chords in rap. listen to songs like "Lose Yourself" by Eminem or "Still DRE" by Dr. Dre and you will be proven wrong. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.231.28.185 (talk) 05:54, 22 January 2010 (UTC)


Theres a big difference your missing rock and roll never once mentioned anything vulgar like rap does which is why today's parents hate it. 18:11, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

"FLOW"

This section has a couple of issues attributed to Adam Krims- ^'s 21-24 and the ^'s point to section of a published book, which I'm certainly not going to buy. This is not opinion, but because I'm not published, I to have use You (WIKI) as my reference. Krims states "the rhythms" also called the cadence"...?? rhythm and cadence are two different things. In Music, Rhythm refers to time (beats, pulses and tempo; a cadence, in Music, refers to chord progressions (plagal cadence- the chords IV-I, dominatant cadence- V-I etc.), that end a section, leading to, a recapitulation of that section, or to a new section. Krims also states ... that Flow also "refers to elements of the delivery (pitch, timber and volume" [volume in Music-"dynamics", basically, the priciples, and skillful execution of, loud and soft] of a section or whole "song"... and neglected to add stress disamb (in Music and Other- liguistics). These four elements are the bedrock of singing, not rapping, and would better describe ordinary, non-poetic speech, which actually encompasses all four elements, unlike Rap with just the one element of volume. PITCH?? in Rap?? Raps are monotone and always at the same volume, if not just louder. Simple phrases like "YOU DID!?! or "GIMME A BREAK" have more pitch than Rap. In Music and in Acoustics, TIMBRE describes the way the human ear clarifies and distinguishes different types of sounds; in music, the differences between a trumpet and a saxophone, a clarinet and a flute, a male voice vs. a female voice or just a human voice and a digital voice independant of pitch, stress and volume. VOLUME? Rap definitely has no shortage of that. In Rap, the only options in volume are loud, louder and loudest. A soft passage or even a medium volume passage in Rap?!? I'm LOL. Clearly debateable, subjective information like this begs me to question Your criteria re a "reference". Another example: the Michael McDonald (singer-composer) article. In the pertinent info box, Michael is listed as a baritone and I've changed it to tenor several times but somone always changes it back. The "references" (sources) re baritone are "StubHub", a ticket seller (A TICKET SELLER?? Now that's what I call a "reliable, authoritative source"), and a writer from Allmusic magazine. Who are these writers? One of them could be the magazine owners tone-deaf, brain-challeged, illegitimate son of his/her secretary lover for all I know; or the environmental engineer (porter) in StubHub's office. So just because something is printed in a magazine or even is published in a book or on a web site, it's automatically Gospel? If Charles Manson wrote a book about the participants and the events of those '69 murders, and was published, would You justify referencing or sourcing his "truth"?? Who would you request reference about the design of the original DeLorean? Joe's Auto Body and Towing in Crapville, ARK? Remember, a long time ago, a book published and "proved" that the earth was flat; other recent books, like encyclopedias, textbooks and liberal media sources slant information to appease political correctness. You insist (and rightly so) that any inserted info has to be backed up with references; I want these writers references!! L & G of WIKI, I pleaded you to elicit info from a musicologist, or someone, as I requested in MMc's talk page, who could actually chart Michael's range on music paper to rectify this info. Someone with a M.A. in music or even a B.A. At this point, I would accept a bongo player with a high school diploma. It may be a minor point to you, but I want MMc's bio to be as accurate as any other bio. I begged to You to contact Allan Pollack, the musicologist whose email address is in my comments on MMC's talk page. ThanksDcrasno (talk) 17:27, 2 November 2009 (UTC) Sorry about all the changes after clicking Save and no more foruming, just improvements.Dcrasno (talk) 18:08, 2 November 2009 (UTC) . —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dcrasno (talk • contribs) 06:16, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Krims is using "cadence" in its literary sense, the way it's most commonly used.
If you look here - http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/cadence for example, it shows the Random House dictionary's first entry for 'cadence' is - "rhythmic flow of a sequence of sounds or words: the cadence of language" and The American Heritage Dictionary's first entry is - "Balanced, rhythmic flow, as of poetry or oratory".
Rapping is part percussive, but also incorporates literary devices, so academics often have to hop between the two disciplines when analyzing it. Krims is a musicologist ( http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/Music/People/adam.krims ), so his analysis is more slanted towards a musical analysis, though he uses pitch, timber, (timbre, they didn't even spell it right- unless they're deliberately using that word as a metaphor for deadwood) and volume as they relate to stress (linguistics) in poetics. Krim's book is a good book to get if you're interested in learning more about music.
Some scholars focus almost entirely on the poetics, such as Adam Bradley who has a literary background ( http://www.claremontmckenna.edu/academic/faculty/profile.asp?Fac=427 ) in his book, Book of Rhymes.
It's also worth checking out Derek Attridge's Poetic Rhythm which has a thorough chapter on rap. Crateescape101 (talk) 13:43, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
Dcrasno - please do not add writing inside my response as you did above (in the part I have now striked out) - it is confusing and misleading as it looks as if I wrote it. Thanks. Crateescape101 (talk) 19:29, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

My first question to him would be is "why did you bother?" Webster's also has a definition of cadence as in- the cadence of a waterfall, a ballerina or a poem. Is he actually comparing the literary figurative cadence of a poem, the dance or a waterfall to the utterly rhythmic repetition of Rap? Rappers, and their music (a waste of good, if not, excellent musicans and producers albeit profitable ones) are literately, figuratively and auditorily static and have become the burdensome albatross of the artistic music world, although, again, profitable. Just because Rappers can rhyme, doesn't make them "poets". My 12 year-old has been rhyming since he was 5 but I wouldn't call him a poet. Rhyme is one element of poetry but so is meter. Does Krims really believe that Rap is poetry? Yeah, I can really imagine a Rapper using a sonnetic meter like iambic pentameter; he'd be laughed off the stage. Using a musicologist to explain the elements of Rap is like using a brain surgeon to put on a Band-Aid; both would be uselessly and unnecesarily utilized per their uber-skilled echelon. And again, timbre is the identifiability of sounds, independant of pitch, volume and stress. Too bad WIKI didn't employ his talents to the Michael McDonald article I mentioned above. Assuredly, he would be able to chart MMc's range on paper and validate my assessment of MMc's range (Tenor not Baritone) in a blindfolded minute and one fountainpen behind his back. . Thanks Dcrasno (talk) 06:43, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

what i don't get about the part on "the history of flow" here is why quotes from Kool Moe Dee are being used for every single source there as if Kool Moe Dee's opinion is the absolute or something. Like the parts where it says how kool moe dee think Method Man and Biggie had the best from from 94-02 and that Eminem had the best flow at the moment, why does it matter who Kool Moe Dee thinks has the best flow at the moment? why does that need to be said?

Siwhat (talk) 00:23, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

The Kool Moe Dee quotes are from a verifiable source - his book. At the moment most of the quotes come from that source because it is one of the few notable, verifiable sources that deals with the history of flow.
Kool Moe Dee also doesn't say that they are the "best" flows as you have stated, he says that they are the "dominant" flows and that those MCs made flow the single most important thing.
If there are any other verifiable, notable sources you find that say otherwise, they could be quoted to show another analysis of what happened with flow (as long as they are fully cited). Crateescape101 (talk) 02:26, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

I'm absolutely with User:SiWhat- WIKI is doing it again!; because these opinionated, biased quotes from KMD are printed in his book, his opinions are relevant. Is this info what WIKI calls a neutral POV? But we stray peripherally. The point of my "improvements" of the "FLOW" section is that Krims and Bradley are using the words rhythms and especially cadence in a literary sense. The FLOW section is about the music in Rap, not the "literary" aspects of which Rap has none; not unless Krims and Bradley feel that cramming 10 lbs. of (excremental and violence-inciteful) words in a 5 lb. bag of 4 beats, ad infinite- and nause-um qualifies them as literary or musical. And BTW, the literary sense of the word [cadence] is not the "most" (?) common use; it's used just as commonly, if not more, in Music and is used literally, not just figureatively.Dcrasno (talk) 19:30, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Advertising going on?

I've noticed 22 references to the book How To Rap and the article sort of reads like a huge advertisement for said book. What do you all think? Evan Walsh (talk) 06:41, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

Hi, I added those references - I also added the Kool Moe Dee references from his book There's a God on the Mic and the references from Derek Attridge, Adam Krims, and stic.man's book, so that there would be some cited information in the article (a lot of the rest of the article still needs citations as a lot of the info is unverified).
At the moment there are very few sources of info for rapping, and How to Rap has a lot of the information as it is a book specifically on rapping.
The other books I added touch on rapping occasionally, but it is not their main focus, and the one that does go into detail, stic.man's book, is self published... so I don't know if citing from it a lot is a good idea on wikipedia, as it is not considered a reliable source.
If you know other sources where the info can be verified from, then please add or mention them here, because at the moment, that is the only source where much of the info can be verified from, hence all the references. Crateescape101 (talk) 16:12, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

Female Rappers

Wendy Clark was the first female rapper to hit the scene in 1979 with the nickname of Lady B.http://digitaldreamdoor.nutsie.com. She was the first to release a rap single. In the media female rapper are not very known and not that many are out. Today through their are many more making it in the game today. now we have Eve, Nicki Manij, and Trina. The HOTTies female artist out right now is Nicki Minaj. she was born December 8, 1984.Bestyellow1 (talk) 17:10, 17 March 2010 (UTC)yell-LO 10:15 am 03.17.10

Rap Early Origin

The word Rap, derived from the word from "rapport": simp. "to speak accordingly", was first introduced as a music style in the early 1950's through the "beatnik" movement, where rhyming and often discordant poetry would be recited to a simple instrumentation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dæmonium (talk • contribs) 16:59, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

I was going to make the point that the term "rap" and "rapping" has been around for a long time in black and beat subcultures, and my take would be that it meant something like a deep, involved, informal discussion or talk. "Let's sit down and rap about that.", "We were just rapping about the government.".
One usage I could point you to the Sun Ra movie "The Space is the Place", which has a hip young black man (complete with afro) comment on some things Sun Ra said: "The dude's got a tight rap."
However, over at the Beat Generation page, we're of the opinion that the connection between beat poetry and hip-hop is very speculative... it's easy to imagine that there might be a connection along a few different lines, but as far as we know it's undocumented. -- Doom (talk) 01:18, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Pending changes

This article is one of a number (about 100) selected for the early stage of the trial of the Wikipedia:Pending Changes system on the English language Wikipedia. All the articles listed at Wikipedia:Pending changes/Queue are being considered for level 1 pending changes protection.

The following request appears on that page:

Comments on the suitability of theis page for "Penfding changes" would be appreciated.

Please update the Queue page as appropriate.

Note that I am not involved in this project any much more than any other editor, just posting these notes since it is quite a big change, potentially

Regards, Rich Farmbrough, 23:41, 16 June 2010 (UTC).

criticism

Someone should add a criticism section.--FifthCylon (talk) 15:17, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

For what reason? Other music genre articles (e.g., Jazz, [[Rock music]) don't have criticism sections. OhNoitsJamie Talk 15:31, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Please include the BAD side of rap

this artical does not include anything about the bad side of rap the bad side includes

  1. talking in ununderstandable slang
  2. swearing
  3. violence
  4. noise pollution (blasting out of phones (ect.)

I've also noticed that the pages on ROCK and THRASH METAL are not protected does any 1 know why, because we all know which genre was here first, don't we!!??—Preceding unsigned comment added by Albinoblackrabbit (talk • contribs) 15:51, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Feel free to add this information as long as you can cite sources. Unreferenced opinions will be removed.
Page protection in article space is usually assigned for individual articles on an as-needed basis. This article was protected for because it was frequently targeted for vandalism from anonymous accounts. / edg ☺ ☭ 19:30, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
Oh, the ignorance is funny. Not to mention the spelling errors in your post. No wonder it's locked, too many people stereotyping the genre based on what they hear on the radio. But anyway, as far as i know there's good and bad in each genre, as well as swearing. Violence only occurs in Gansta rap. Rap in general, is not about "guns, hoes, cars, money" etc. and well, idiots cause noise pollution, and you dont seem any different by failing at putting rap down. 74.12.217.80 (talk) 12:52, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
Talking in ununderstandable slang is the worst part about rap and deserves its own encyclopedia article. Because we don't have any information on it right now I propose we use the (now public domain) Encyclopædia Britannica Eleventh Edition's article as a foundation. Furthermore, THRASH METAL sucks ass.
Wikipedia is not a soapbox. Your personal opinions are not appropriate topics for encyclopedic articles. Please familiarize yourself with the five pillars. Also "ununderstandable" is not a real word. Beeblbrox (talk) 07:02, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, violence is something that is omnipresent in society today. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.68.1.148 (talk) 00:18, 10 August 2008 (UTC) Violence occurs in nearly any sort of rap. Gangsta rap makes sad mention of specific names and sets while hardcore rap makes its living off ultraviolence. Even carefree emceeing makes frequent mention of violence, as does battle rhyming. Old mafiosi rap had staples of cocaine distribution and cop-murder. Even Jehst, who is to me one of the most creative artists working today in music, has a measure of violent lyrics. 71.228.195.19 (talk) 19:48, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Ignorance makes me laugh as well. If you have factual proof, fine, but dont put in your personal bias stemmed from your lack of knowledge of the genre. Look up Conscious rap if you can manage listening to real thought-provoking music. ignorants enjoy idiotic music. 23:10, 12 September 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bsilver87 (talk • contribs)

Either way the point is moot as this is an article about rapping, not rap music. Gangster movies also use violence, as do horror flicks. Rap is a form of expression, and a story telling medium, not unlike a movie. What you think the stories are generally about is irrelevant. KDilla (talk) 11:34, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Not all rap is violent, Swearing has been happening in rap for years and noise pollution happens with all music blasting. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Prez Tybalt (talk • contribs) 20:14, 13 February 2010 (UTC) Also Add Gay Rappers:There should be some kind of info on Gay Rappers as well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.83.125.13 (talk) 16:36, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Jimi Hendrix

I think Jimi Hendrix and his song "Crosstown Traffic" deserve to be mentioned in the "Roots" section of the article. BillyJack193 (talk) 17:28, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

No Dylan? and late 1900's and early 20th Century

See Bob Dylan- "Subterranean Homesick Blues" and then look up sprechstimme (talk-singing) in Wiki. Dcrasno (talk) 05:03, 29 October 2009 (UTC)


== also country music "raps" from the 50's 60's

I Don't remember what they were called as a sub-genre people telling droning stories with spoken word that often rhymed and was stictly metered... basicly it was rap. 99.69.57.91 (talk) 12:44, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

the preacher and the bear

i think that this song must be remembered in its different versions, from the golden gate quartet's performance in the 1936 do you agree? sorry 4 my poor english! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Johnjtheoriginal (talk • contribs) 14:06, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

Rap is Rhythm And Poetry

The beauty of rap can be seen if you understand that it is, Rhythm And Poetry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.88.97.193 (talk) 01:53, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

Science and science fiction in hip hop?

Mike Shinoda and Deltron 3030 have this semi-nerdcore science fiction style. Shinoda says he, "Mastered numerology and bigbang theology, Performed lobotomies with telekinetic psychology" to make "A logical progression on the timeline, The seperation narrowed down to a fine line, To blur the edges so they blend together properly, Take you on an audible odyssey." Deltron 3030 does this kind of thing on pretty much every song. These lyrics are abstract and perhaps meaningless but they basically string together technological or scientific terminology in clever ways. What would this style be called? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.193.112.62 (talk) 21:55, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

Can at least two references be cited for the "Social impact" section?

The whole of the "Derivatives and influence" section is written from a quasi-Soapbox POV. There is no attempt to provide reliable, verifiable references here. Can anyone with a suitable level of expertise on the subject and at least the majority of artists mentioned in this section provide citations for this section?

DexJackson (talk) 15:38, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

New section under types of flows

I think some more sections could be added

a "Seamless" flow involves internal rhyming and picking up the next line by rhyming the end of the last to the start of the next (therefore making the flow "seamless")

Examples include: AZ, King Magnetic, Mr. J. Medeiros, Louis Logic

Also there are "offbeat" rappers (although they come back on beat). an example is Talib Kweli — Preceding unsigned comment added by Neelcm (talk • contribs) 04:05, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Grime

Where it mentions grime it says dizzee rascal pioneered ut, but it was Wiley who made the first grime tracks way before. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.5.17.146 (talk) 19:45, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

Edit request on 6 December 2011

Please change "(and some whites)" to "and some whites" because the parentheses are unnecessary and denegrates the contribution of those rappers of another race.

Rlpmjp (talk) 00:01, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

 Done partially. Changed to "and later by some whites" since the context is discussing the very start of blues and there is no proof that whites were involved in the music in the 1850s but could have been by the 1900s. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 00:26, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Hammer/Price/Joel, etc.

For the purpose of including and expanding "The Golden Age & Old School Rap", there are plenty of sources on the web (included in his article) to support MC Hammer's contribution to rapping, his mainstream success and impact on popular culture and the genre during the mid-to-late 80's and early-to-mid 90's. In addition, perhaps adding the fact that Vincent Price performed what was credited a rap on Michael Jackson's Thriller as another example/style/method of "spoken word". Not only that, there can be research done/found of early white people performing styles considered hip hop or rap dating back to [before] the 50's and 60's (now considered "oldies"), some which is included already in the article, yet could be expanded on. I also think more recent songs such as "We Didn't Start The Fire" (see: [1]) could be classified as a form of "rap" or "hip hop" in pop-rock (fast-paced rhymning although technically singing) such as P.O.D., Limp Bizkit and/or Linkin Park later were. Lastly, including more examples of Christian "rap" such as KJ-52, Jon Gibson, dc Talk, T-Bone and/or Gospel Gangstaz would be beneficial (in addition to some methods secular artists who consider themself Christians use to convey their values via rapping such as Hammer, Kanye West or Reverend Run). Whether related to history, style or cultural impact, I think there is more that could be included within the article if someone wants to put forth the effort. Perhaps some of these topics also belong in the articles for hip hop or golden age of hip hop. Not sure why there is an edit block on this article either, but hopefully for good reason (because of excessive vandals, not to monopolize the article)? Just my "three cents" worth. I had an extra penny to give... Thanks! :) P.S. I'm not a scholar on the subject, so please no "hate" responses. Should go without saying, but still. 209.103.209.92 (talk) 03:38, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

Please explain MC

The term MC is used in this article without explanation. In the rap context, is it the same thing as the general usage master of ceremonies? Urbandictionary.com gives "microphone controller" as the meaning in this context. Please fill this in, someone with an authoritative answer. --Justinbb (talk) 21:33, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

It's master of ceremonies. In the Vereinigten Staaten we would say UD pulled "microphone controller" out of its ass. Just our quaint folkways, gotta love em. 72.228.190.243 (talk) 17:04, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

The etymology section is quite brief. Is it at all possible that the word "rap" is etymologically related to "Rhapsode" in Greek? The traditions of telling stories and of competitions between story tellers are similar between rapping and rhapsode. Of course, I apologize if this issue has already been addressed in another 'Talk Page' section long-since archived. If the principal editors of this page agree, I would add a link to the 'rhapsode' page in the 'etymology' section....follow the trail (talk) 06:59, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

Not likely. It comes from the black slang term in the 1960s for talking.
rap (n.). Meaning "talk informally" is first recorded 1929, popularized c.1965 in Black English, possibly first in Caribbean English, from British slang meaning "say, utter" (1879), originally "to utter a sudden oath" (1540s), ultimately from rap (n.). Meaning "to perform rap music" is recorded by 1979.http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=rap
Your etymology would require a reference. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 07:05, 13 October 2012 (UTC)
Rap is definitely not derived from Rhapsody, any similarities are a coincidence. Walter's source above doesn't mention this, but I think it was originally derived as an abbreviation for "rapid talking". Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 12:43, 13 October 2012 (UTC)
Connection to rhapsody, rhapsodic, etc. is unlikely/improbable but certainly not impossible. I first heard the term in c. 1966 in grade school by which time it had roughly it's current usage. Similarly improbable is back formation from say Gershwin's Rhapsody in Blue. 72.228.190.243 (talk) 17:01, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
If you heard of rapping in the sense of music in 1966, that would be quite remarkable, since nobody else seems to have used it in that sense until the late 1970s. The only documented musical usage of the English words "rapping" and "rapper" I could find from before that, was in reference to the playing of a tambourine, going back a few centuries... Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 17:33, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
No it was not as such at the time musical. It referred to a verbal ability and of course in a childish context its meaning was not precise and there was a conflation with "rep" I believe (reputation). Should say this was in the Hyde Park neighborhood of Chicago and at a mostly black school but the person I remember first using it was white. 72.228.190.243 (talk) 18:14, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
Ah, yes, I believe that meaning is well explicated in the original, Rapper's Delight. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 19:16, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 15 December 2012

Rapping (also known as emceeing,[1] MCing,[1] spitting (bars),[2] or rhyming[3]) refers to "spoken or chanted rhyming lyrics".[4] The art form can be broken down into different components, as in the book How to Rap where it is separated into “content”, “flow” (rhythm and rhyme), and “delivery”.[5] Rapping is distinct from spoken word poetry in that it is performed in time to a beat.[6][7]

Rapping is a primary ingredient in hip hop music and reggae, but the phenomenon predates hip hop culture by centuries. It can also be found in alternative rock such as that of Cake and the Red Hot Chili Peppers. Rapping is also used in Kwaito music, a genre that originated in Johannesburg, South Africa and is composed of hip hop elements. Rapping can be delivered over a beat or without accompaniment. Stylistically, rap occupies a gray area among speech, prose, poetry, and song. The use of the word to describe quick speech or repartee long predates the musical form,[8] meaning originally "to hit".[9] The word had been used in British English since the 16th century, and specifically meaning "to say" since the 18th. It was part of the African American dialect of English in the 1960s meaning "to converse", and very soon after that in its present usage as a term denoting the musical style.[10] Today, the terms "rap" and "rapping" are so closely associated with hip hop music that many use the terms interchangeably.

Not done: please make your request in a "change X to Y" format. RudolfRed (talk) 04:51, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
Looks like this is where the copy of the obverse came from. 72.228.190.243 (talk) 17:05, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
  1. ^ a b Edwards 2009, p. xii.
  2. ^ Edwards 2009, p. 3.
  3. ^ Edwards 2009, p. 81.
  4. ^ "Rapping" definition, 2009, The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition, Houghton Mifflin Company, Dictionary.reference.com
  5. ^ Edwards 2009, p. x.
  6. ^ Cite error: The named reference Attridge, Derek 2002, p. 90 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  7. ^ Edwards 2009, p. 63.
  8. ^ Oxford English Dictionary
  9. ^ "Dictionary.com". Retrieved February 2, 2008.
  10. ^ Safire, William. (1992). On language; The rap on hip-hop. The New York Times Magazine.

Concern about "roots" and "innovators"

In 1977, on 9th Ave. around 35th St. in Manhattan, during a street celebration, a man performed in Spanish from a second or third floor balcony. He rapped, unmistakably, the staccato cadence flowing over some disco instrumentals. This was before Melle Mel. His presence, well amplified, was central to the celebration. Rapping was going on in the Latino or Hispanic population at this time. It seems highly relevant to include this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.108.186.43 (talk) 01:32, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

If you can include a reliable source to confirm it, then it should certainly be added.
Noting above by user:Walter Görlitz. 72.228.190.243 (talk) 02:32, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
What does that mean? --Walter Görlitz (talk) 03:09, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
Just what it says, that the 3rd entry in this thread before this one is by you (since you didn't sign it). I've had a lot of activity on this talk page, there could have been a confusion. 72.228.190.243 (talk) 04:14, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
There were rappers such as Coke La Rock, DJ Hollywood, and Eddie Cheeba all doing a form of early rapping before 1978, in the period before Melle Mel, from 1973-1977, in a basic style... so I don't think that one guy rapping in 1977 is that significant. 94.4.193.37 (talk) 17:19, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

Golden Age of Hip Hop

It seems controversial to say that lyrical innovation ended around 1994. Plus [28] and [30] these aren't exactly scholarly sources. Can someone who knows a lot about the Golden Age improve this? I think you can see innovators from NAS to Jay-Z to Eminem to Talib Kweli and the whole underground movement. Vaxine19 (talk) 15:33, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

Rename: "History of Hip Hop" or "History of Rap"?

I was redirected to this page from History of Hip Hop. If this article is primarily about the history, it should specifically say "The History of Rap" or "The History of Hip Hop". There's another article on Hip Hop Music, plus one on Hip Hop [Culture] which also needs a name change to "Hip Hop Culture". These titles need to be more specific because it can't be assumed that readers will know (as someone stated on another talk page) that "Hip Hop" includes the culture; besides that there are the different hip hop/ rap articles, so more specific titles would make it much easier at an eye's glance for readers to know what the page is about. We must always assume that many readers will come to these articles will have some level of "ignorance" in regards to the topic, whether mild, moderate, a high level, or perhaps even totally ignorant (like an older student at a community college who has never listened to rap music, never talked about it with anyone, & now has to do a paper on it for college or learn something about it for a class discussion). Therefore the titles must be TOTALLY clear in regards to the subject matter.

BTW - I added topics for discussion on the talk page of "Hip Hop" (or rather "Hip Hop Culture" as it should be named), in regards to additions for the cultural effects OF mainstream rap & the cultural REPRESENTATION of underground hip hop, plus journal links, a list of female emcees (which needs more names with explanation of the female culture within the scope of both mainstream and underground hip hop), & brief mention of the queer hip hop scene & feminist hip hop scene. Furthermore, since females have ALWAYS been present through-out, both their cultural contributions (for the other article) and historical contributions (for this article) should be included. With less weight of course, but still through-out. Brief mention at the end of some names doesn't do justice to the historical contributions of female emcees. The article "Hip Hop Music" also includes history and actually does list a couple of early female rappers; additionally the book "The Vibe History of Hip Hop" (Edited by Alan Light) goes back much further, including attributes of hip hop that can be credited to women as early as the 1960s and female rappers from the 1970s-today. The naming game specifically is an attribute of hip hop that women & girls practiced that was adopted into the rhythmic style of hip hop. Sylvia Blossom (talk) 18:09, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

Amoebaean singing

Amoebaean singing is an ancient Greek freestyle form of Rapping. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.100.129.244 (talk) 18:39, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

MCing redirects here

It doesn't.. Pubserv (talk) 18:48, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Quite right. I have fixed the hatnotes to correct this.
There is an unfortunate overlap between this article and Master of Ceremonies#Hip hop which may be the source of some confusion. —sroc 💬 10:35, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

A gap in the history

When Beastie Boys dropped Paul's Boutique in 1989, in many ways it was the dirty secret of the hip-hop community, as it can be seen as the real grandfather of modern hip-hop and rap, the intricate flows based around concepts and not simple rhymes, the nature of the tracks not being treated as separate entities but rather parts of the whole, and the cohesive nature between the instrumentals and the lyricism pre-dates any so-called 'modern' examples which emerged roughly 3-5 years after this record.

It would be a serious mistake to attribute modern flow and hip-hop to other sources, and it needs to be added to the article pronto.

Liftmoduleinterface (talk) 18:23, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

At the time it came out, I can assure you it was not seen as the "real grandfather of modern hip-hop and rap", since everyone knew these things had been around for 10 years already. But maybe we can attribute that opinion to a WP:RS if you have one for it. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 18:36, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Flyting

Why is there no mention of flyting? It's a form of medieval rapping.

https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Flyting https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Flyting_of_Dunbar_and_Kennedy https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Flyting_of_Loki


--MightySaiyan (talk) 22:55, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

All we'd need would be an WP:RS mentioning flyting in connection with the article topic, rapping. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 04:58, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
That's what see also sections are about. Walter Görlitz (talk) 07:30, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 10 April 2014

GilbertValens (talk) 19:17, 10 April 2014 (UTC) The artistry of rap is hugely contributed to "Ricky". Although many people believe it started in New York the earliest origins are from Albuquerque.

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. --ElHef (Meep?) 19:29, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

M - Pop Muzik

The single "Pop Muzik" by M certainly sounds like rap to me, although with an electronic sound, and it's from 1979 so pre-dates Blondie's "Rapture" chart entry by two years. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.24.208.91 (talk) 17:14, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

Irish rhyming

Rapping was based on the Irish-American folk rhyming of the late 19th, early 20th century. It's almost identical. Bob Dylan brought it to the mainstream in "subterranean homesick blues"

I'm assuming this hasn't been added, or has been removed, as it would be too controversial to write that aspects of rap were pioneered by white people!

Cjmooney9 (talk) 10:33, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

interesting. I thought the spark that got it going was John Lennon's "Give Peace A Chance" which has a nice beat part. Beat poetery with disco is the actual parantag eof modern rap. But then music is about 40,000 years old.

Semi-protected edit request on 13 May 2014

First rap song The first rap song in any language was "Railgaadi Railgaadi" from the Hindi Movie "Ashirwaad" Which was sang and performed by "Ashok kumar" WikiTiwari (talk) 13:11, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. — {{U|Technical 13}} (t • e • c) 13:32, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

It seems you refuse to make any change that links the origins of rap to none-black people Cjmooney9 (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 10:35, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

Rap term/ Hip hop

"The word had been used in British English since the 16th century, and specifically meaning "to say" since the 18th. It was part of the African American dialect of English in the 1960s meaning "to converse", and very soon after that in its present usage as a term denoting the musical style.[10] Today, the terms "rap" and "rapping" are so closely associated with hip hop music that many use the terms interchangeably."

The whole of hip hop origins is from the Anglo Caribbean. the term "rap" mean to chat or to talk (mostly between men) I think, and is probably still used in the country side in some places. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Starbwoy (talk • contribs) 05:12, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Sounds like rubbish debatable to me too. I've added a citation needed note. Joseph2302 (talk) 12:50, 10 March 2015 (UTC)
I've found a couple of earliest uses cited in reliable dictionary sources, giving a first recorded date of 1541. Don't know where the 18th century came from. So, not "rubbish", but may need further clarification. Ghmyrtle (talk) 13:27, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 April 2015

One of the first raps in modern history written down was in "The Marriage of Figaro" by Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart in 1786. Although it was not yet labeled as such it has all the elements of modern rap and serves as a precursor to further modern development.

Docbrown850 (talk) 09:25, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. --I am k6ka Talk to me! See what I have done 11:26, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 May 2014

Under the roots section first paragraph there can be added- It can also be argued that the roots of rap come from the ancient Greeks. Adam Bradley states in the Anthology of Rap "Song lyrics and lyric poetry share a common lineage. The connection is in language itself; ‘lyric,’ after all, is the Greek term used to describe verse set to the music of the lyre. Rap simply replaces the lyre with two turntables and a digital sampler." Jezzadrake (talk) 22:43, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. —KuyaBriBriTalk 23:31, 23 May 2014 (UTC)
(edit conflict). This is a good suggestion. I assume the book is Bradley, Adam; DuBois, Andrew, eds. (September 13, 2011). The Anthology of Rap. Yale University Press. ISBN 0300141912. but a page number is needed and ideally a direct quote would help, although the quote does not need to be included in the article. Walter Görlitz (talk) 23:36, 23 May 2014 (UTC)


This is common knowledge. It seems the article is just being moderated on racial lines. Trying to link the origins of rap only to black people. It's origins are obviously a mix of European folk rhyming, and US blues music. Cjmooney9 (talk) 10:38, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

Also in the roots subsection, 4th paragraph: Meridith Willson's surname is misspelled (but correctly spelled for the link to his wiki page). Please fix. Double-L in his name. 67.239.209.191 (talk) 06:57, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

Self-contradiction?

In paragraphs 1 and 2:

"Rapping is distinct from spoken-word poetry in that it is performed in time to a beat. ... Rapping can be delivered over a beat or without accompaniment."

This is confusing. The first of these sentences makes it sound like delivery without a beat would make it spoken-word poetry. But the second says rapping may be performed without a beat. Can these be reconciled? VineetKumar (talk) 04:37, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

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The term RAP or "to rap"

"The word had been used in British English since the 16th century. It was part of the African-American dialect of English in the 1960s meaning "to converse", and very soon after that in its present usage as a term denoting the musical style."

The term rap is/was a English Caribbean term used in places like Jamaica, Guyana, Trinidad etc. Anglo Caribbean. meaning rapport, to have a chat, conversation etc. It came over with the the first modern immigrants to new York city 55-70's, with the other aspects of what became hip hip, like MCing. It is not African American ie. as in Black born Americans, it is Anglo Caribbean in origin. I find Americans do this a lot, they claim items that do not have an American origin, and since they dont know the true origin of it, ot its forgotten, they claim it as their own. They constantly do this with musicStarbwoy (talk) 19:58, 5 January 2016 (UTC)

As Griot artists are claimed the earliest to utilize rhythmic story-telling it should be in the very least linked inline.

It is - the first line of the Roots section. Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:25, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

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bob dylan

subterranean homesick blues? it was a fast performer of a "talkin' blues" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.38.190.243 (talk) 09:24, 14 March 2016 (UTC)

John Skelton

Why no mention of Skeltonic verse? Jimstiles26287 (talk) 04:44, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

You mean John Skelton? Find a reliable source explaining the relationship. Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:28, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

The Difference Between Rap & Hip-Hop

Rap is more genuine, more political with more focus on the notions. Hip-hop is more complete harmonically, and conveying the rap message. Rap is more philosophical though, for it isn't conveying any culture on the background. It is the culture, it's simply more boring for the people who don't understand deep words, but prefer easier to grasp contexts. Rap becomes complete inside your mind. Hip-hop is already complete for the intellectually retarded people. Philosophers only sing hip-hop, because they offer their analytical ready made scope (they claim they are open minded but by no means are they neutral). Of course few artists are actual philosophers even if they claim so. Rapping is simply expressing how a disadvantaged person really feels. Rapping conveys the actual pain of the disadvantaged. Hip-hop conveys the rapping culture that some disadvantaged predecessors created and we now harmonically evolve into something culturally more complex and concrete. Hip-hop isn't something straight forward but a culture. Cultures make you feel that you belong somewhere. Belonging is sweet, but wise thinkers do not belong while they reflect. Rap is a culture generator. Hip-hop is a massively selling establishment which claims to the masses that it is an anti-establishment movement. Thus define establishment! I can! Establishment = hip-hop! Hip-hop provides you the "solutions". Rap engages you into thought! If you are interesed in style, you're a hip-hopper• if you're interested in people, then you're a rapster! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:587:4100:8500:F94A:BDB8:BA43:8760 (talk) 18:55, 22 April 2016 (UTC)

Help needed

Is speed necessary for rapping? If not why people think that speed is necessary ? Please can you reply me with simply way describing about what rap really means? Ishanbull (talk) 06:40, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

Subject Matter

(Add to subject matter, paragraph four) In addition, there has been a lot of research conducted discussing the effects of rap on different audiences. For example, it has been proven that African American youths are more committed to rap music, praising the style. While race is a significant influencer is musical preference, specifically for rap, this style is becoming increasingly more popular amongst all nationalities, in fact, it is becoming a national phenomenon.

Citation: Sullivan, Rachel. Journal of Black Studies: Rap and Race: It's Got a Nice Beat, but What about the Message?, Vol. 33, No. 5. Thousand Oaks, 2003: Sage Publications, Inc. 605-622. Print. http://www.jstor.org.ezproxy2.library.arizona.edu/stable/pdf/3180978.pdf?_=1465927827674 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Marissabloom (talk • contribs) 01:44, 15 June 2016 (UTC)

evaluation

The references are up to date and relevant to the topic, being inclusive of more than just the traditional 'rap' genre. Because rap can be incorporated into several different musical genres, those are genres should be mentioned in the article, and are as evidenced by the reference to alternative rock.RonaldTomlinson (talk) 05:54, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

"spoken or chanted rhyming lyrics"

Rhyming is no longer a requisite. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.125.68.34 (talk) 19:55, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Suggestion to add sentence

Increases likeliness of people outside of Hip-Hop culture to help out with their point of knowledge. I'd also suggest calling it a vocal technique, as the current description is not fully applicable in the metal scene.

It can also be found in alternative rock such as that of Cake, Gorillaz and the Red Hot Chili Peppers. As well as in some subgenres of [punk] or [metal].

88.65.115.163 (talk) 10:01, 12 February 2017 (UTC)

This article is full of disinformation

Rap is not african american made at all. This article mainly focuses on african american influence, but if anyone did any actual research you would understand that rapping is, and always has been part of european germanic culture. For christ sake there were literally medieval rap battles, they would share a table and speak their raps to eachother and there would be prize pools. It's roots go way back. Inb4 someone calls me racist because they cant handle the genuine truth — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bitsnake (talk • contribs) 19:57, 11 January 2017 (UTC)

"Rapping" as in "spoken or chanted rhyming lyrics" is probably much older than you think, and not limited to one culture/place/time. See for example Griot and Shuochang and Oral tradition. Setting them to music (or even just a simple beat) makes stories easier to remember and more entertaining to listen to. See also Metre (poetry). (((The Quixotic Potato))) (talk) 10:00, 18 January 2017 (UTC)
I've read somewhere, that Minnesang, which is probably a part of what your talking about was influenced by oriental music. I cannot fully confirm though. 88.65.115.163 (talk) 10:05, 12 February 2017 (UTC)

Violence and other crudeness, and claims that it is co-opted

I don't see any of it, but i do remember claims that it happened http://raprehab.com/how-hip-hop-was-bought-and-rap-was-sold/ 88.159.73.118 (talk) 09:08, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

Historical Connection Between Dancehall and Rap

This article lacks description of the connection and influence Jamaican dancehall music has on rap and hip hop. This article uses a quote by Kool Herc, undeniably the Godfather of HIP HOP, to discredit the influence dancehall had on hip hop, simply by him claiming he was not influenced by Jamaican music.

Wikipedia has an article on Ewart 'U-Roy' Beckford, (https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/U-Roy) a pioneering Jamaican Deejay who is credited with innovating the act of toasting, an undeniable precursor on the timeline towards modern rap.

In the section titled 'Proto-Rap,' between the Kool Herc quote on his lack of dancehall influence, and the introduction of Dj Hollywood, whom this article gives credit as the inventor of modern rap as the house DJ at the Apollo club in Harlem. I suggest adding facts that add insight to the connection between dancehall, toasting, rapping and hip hop after Herc's quote and before the introduction of modern rap pioneer DJ Hollywood. Perhaps this 2012 obituary from Pierre Perone of the British online publication, The Independent about King Stitt, a pioneer of toasting, and his influence on rap , or this 2012 article from Jamaican newspaper, The Gleaner, regarding the effect of the dancehall boom on the hip hop boom. With the absence of information regarding the influence of dancehall on rap, this article is weaker. Chris Duckworth (talk) 17:36, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

"Proto-rap" section is not objective

It appears somebody came to this article and began writing down their own opinions about the origin of rap. Two paragraphs in particular in the History#Proto-rap section look very opinion based, and don't fit Wikipedia's style at all. — Preceding unsigned comment added by OreoCakester (talk • contribs) 19:30, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

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One sentence in Lede is extremely awkward and hard to follow.

  1. This quotation from a reference is never closed:
    • and aim to reuse elements of past traditions while expanding upon them through "creative use of language and rhetorical styles and strategies.
    • I expect the speechmarks should have closed at the end of the sentence.
  2. This sentence is extremely awkward and hard to follow:
    • The person credited with originating the style of "delivering rhymes over extensive music",[9] that would become known as rap, was Harlem, New York native, Anthony "DJ Hollywood" Holloway.
    1. It is broken up by parenthetical commas to such an extent the Flow is disrupted. Done
    2. "The person credited with originating the style (...) was Harlem" is misleading, as it later goes on to say he was actually Anthony from New York. Done
    3. Someone might be a native African or a native Amerindian when their entire ancestry has dwelt in that location for centuries, but it makes little sense to claim that someone's heritage has been confined to just one city for sufficient generations they're officially indigenous. Done
    4. There is a convention of referring to places as using the specific syntax "City, Country" for example "Paris, France" (even though everyone knows where Paris is), "Cairo, Egypt" (even though everyone knows where Cairo is), "Rome, Italy" (even though everyone knows where Rome is). This article should be consistent with that protocol and refer to "New York, America" (even though everyone knows where New York is).
    5. Although there's an idiom, "Smart Alec is my middle name!" or "Bob the Builder is my middle name!" it isn't to be taken literally. You wouldn't call someone Bob "Bob the Builder" Smith. It isn't literally their middle name. It's figurative. They might be referred to as Bob Smith (A.K.A. Bob the Builder) or Bob Smith (alias Bob the Builder).
    • I propose changing this specific sentence to:
    • The person credited with originating the style of "delivering rhymes over extensive music"[9] that would become known as rap was Anthony Holloway from New York, America.

110.147.135.239 (talk) 12:51, 3 January 2018 (UTC)

I've clarified the text. The convention here is not to refer to "New York, America", or even to "New York, US", as the overwhelming majority of readers know in which country the city is located. Ghmyrtle (talk) 13:19, 3 January 2018 (UTC)
Thankyou for the progress made. Your rationale against #4 is very droll! :-) 110.150.201.90 (talk) 00:28, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 16 March 2018

"Griot traditions connect to rap along a lineage of Black verbal reverence that goes back to ancient Egyptian practices" -- Please insert citations or remove. I cannot find anything connecting groit traditions to Ancient Egypt, neither on Wikipedia or elsewhere, and the black Egyptian hypothesis is debated by modern historians. 24.117.18.128 (talk) 05:15, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: The Manual of Style for lead sections does not require cites for every statement in the lead, as the lead is only intended to summarize the cited statements of the body text. In this case the body text justifies the statement, especially the section on rapping's roots: Rapping can be traced back to its African roots. Centuries before hip-hop music existed, the griots of West Africa were delivering stories rhythmically, over drums and sparse instrumentation. Such connections have been acknowledged by many modern artists, modern day "griots", spoken word artists, mainstream news sources, and academics. This statement is cited to four sources. If you think those sources are not reliable, then please state why. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 17:10, 16 March 2018 (UTC)
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