User talk:Crateescape101

Hip Hop music history =

In the documentary " The freshest Kids", The first latino b boy group called " The latin kings" state that hip hop, and breakdancing started out as an African American style then as it became less underground more people took to it. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQAK0wbcwZc&feature=channel —Preceding unsigned comment added by Darkman1984 (talk • contribs) 03:51, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

An interview with "Crazy Legs" states himself how the latinos started breaking AFTER African Americans did. No one is denying their influence, but even one of the greatest bboys states this himself. "Davey D:I had a conversation with Kool Herc and he said there were some very distinct ways in which African Americans and Puerto Ricans approached b-boying. Could you shed some light on that?

Crazy Legs: I think the difference is when the brothas first started doing and it was at its infancy they weren't doing acrobatic moves. That didn't come into play until more Puerto Ricans got involved in the mid 70s. We then took the dance, evolved it and kept it alive. In '79 I was getting dissed. I would go into a dance and I would get dissed by a lot of brothas who would ask 'Why y'all still doing that dance? ThatÕs played out'. By 79, there were very few African American brothas that was doing thisÉ I one say one other thing. We always maintained the flava. It was like a changing of the guard and all we did was add more flava to something that already existed. We use to refer to it as Moreno style or Cocola style. That was just the slang back then. There were certain Top Rocks called Latin Rock"(http://www.daveyd.com/crazylegsinterview.html) Darkman1984 (talk) 04:29, 30 August 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Darkman1984 (talk • contribs)

Darkman1984 (talk) 12:01, 30 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The book Foundation interviews many of the original b-boys, and it also includes quotes and info from "The Freshest Kids" documentary - using all the information, the author comes to the conclusion that Latinos were instrumental in creating breaking and hip-hop. Crateescape101 (talk) 13:55, 30 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You cant use only one book as the main source or the bible of Hip Hop. The original first Latino break dancers say themselves that the music , and the art style was created by black people. If you want this article to be correct, you should acknowledge what they say in the documentary. This is basically stealing African American cultural history. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Darkman1984 (talk • contribs) 17:00, 30 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The first founding people of the Music, and the art of b boying were black people. Latino contribution came later, and no one is bilittling or denying it. But to say they are the creators of the music, b boying is an insult to myself, and black people. The first latino b boys called it " That moreno style" for a reason. If you look at all past documentaries, all of them clearly stated it was created, and started by black people. I'm not sure if this article needs to be reworded or have someone else organize, and write it, but the founding creators "black people" needs to be stated first.

Darkman1984 (talk) 17:24, 30 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've seen the documentaries, and so has the author of that book - as I previously mentioned it quotes from numerous sources, including the Freshest Kids documentary.

You have cherry picked a couple of quotes from a small number of b-boys, but the book takes into account all the interviews and all the information. The rest of your argument is in your own words - wikipedia goes off verifiable citations.

I have given the citation that I used, which clearly contradicts what you are saying, and it takes into account the things you are quoting. Crateescape101 (talk) 19:02, 30 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

What Latino Americans created hip hop? Where in this book does it state that Latino Americans created the music that is called hip hop? Where in the book does it state that b boying, and breaking was proven to be started by black and Latino kids? Post the page, and quotes. I do not own this book, but its pretty clear from the documentaries from the first innovative Djs, and Cool Herc, that the founders were black.

Darkman1984 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 19:28, 30 August 2009 (UTC).[reply]

I already posted the quotes, but here they are again -

"the early development of the dance took place among small groups of working class black and Latino teenagers" - pg. 125.

"the dance developed in the context of an urban Latino environment" - pg. 141.

"there were three basic stages to the development of the dance: the early rock dance of the '60s, which was Latino and citywide; Brooklyn rocking or uprocking, which was Latino and Brooklyn-based, and b-boying which is black and Latino and Bronx-based" - pg. 153.

All from Schloss, Joseph (2009). "Foundation: B-boys, B-girls, And Hip-Hop Culture In New York". Oxford University Press.

The above is about breaking, and breaking is a key element of hip-hop, as already cited in the hip-hop article itself. Crateescape101 (talk) 19:51, 30 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Is this book just on B boying? The founding people, and creators of Djing, the music, scratching. All of them were black, the first ones to ever do it was black. So hip hop music was created by black people.

Break dancing was started by black people, and then latinos picked up the dance and approached it differently. Its the same thing as rock music.

The music aspect AT LEAST should be credited to black americans FIRST. The breaking aspect clearly has latino contributions , but not as the founding creators of it.Darkman1984 (talk) 19:37, 30 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia goes off of verifiable sources.

None of the sources in there at the moment state what you're claiming.

The sources that are in there directly and explicitly contradict what you are stating.

The sources you have presented in this discussion (which aren't in the article) are covered in the source that is in there now (from Foundation), and it doesn't come to the same conclusion as you (as shown in the quotes above).

Seeing as we have to go off verifiable sources, and not just your own conclusions or original research, then we have to go what is in the sources, which clearly states that black AND Latino Americans were responsible for its creation.Crateescape101 (talk) 19:51, 30 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Does this book say the MUSIC, or just the CULTURE surounding b boying/ Hip Hop? Because if you are just refering to the culture, and b boying. Then I agree with the book. And if so, you need to title the articles differently. I noticed that the hip hop music section just has African American, and Jamaican creators, which is correct. And I'm sure they point to only black people as the creators of the music, scratching, djing, MC side of the culture.

I think the breaking, b boying, and Hip hop "culture" pages need to be retitled if this is the case.

Darkman1984 (talk) 19:57, 30 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The book refers to just b-boying / breaking. So the breakdance page should include Latino Americans, and as the hip-hop article is the main elements (b-boying, MCing, DJing, graffiti) of the culture, then it should include Latino Americans too.

The hip-hop music page is different though, yeah, it doesn't need any mention of Latino Americans, because there are currently no sources in there which say anything about any Latino influence in MCing or DJing. Crateescape101 (talk) 20:07, 30 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ah ok. I think that was the issue. I guess we were both on different pages then. I think the hip hop culture, and breaking/b boying titles should be fixed at the top.

Sorry if I came off a little pissed. The first page I saw on hip hop was the cultural aspect, and I thought it was saying the creation of the music was done by Latinos.

Darkman1984 (talk) 20:11, 30 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Word - no problem man, I think everyone agrees the music was just black people Crateescape101 (talk) 20:17, 30 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There are these studies all over the internet. I mean you basing this wiki article off one book with biased views obviously from latinos who want to take credit in the creation. The sad thing is that even the wiki article shows the truth. The people who started and created the music, the dancing , the scratching, the raping were all black people. There for African Americans, and Jamaicans ( NOT LATINOS) get credited as being the creators of the art forms. You can add Latino contributions later. Other the title is missleading in stating that Latinos CREATED the artform. Which is not the case. Even the " freshest kids" documentary states this.

Here is ONE example. From a "credible" source.

http://www.forbes.com/2009/07/09/afrika-bambaataa-hip-hop-music-business-entertainment-cash-kings-bambaataa.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by Darkman1984 (talk • contribs) 17:01, 15 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

May 2009

You are not permitted to use an afd discussion for the purpose of making negative reflections on the ethics of the subject of the article. BLP applies everywhere in Wikipedia , not just to articles. If you do want to get an article deleted, a display of animus against the subject is not the way to go about it. DGG (talk) 20:12, 16 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

sorry, my bad. Crateescape101 (talk) 21:17, 16 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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