Talk:Randall Terry/Archive 1

This is an archive of past discussions about Randall Terry. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

POV?

Admittedly what I know about Randall Terry would fit on the back of a postage stamp, but I can't believe this article can be NPOV. What do people who know the subject think? Dbiv 23:16, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Everything presented here is fact. What you can glean from that is either that Randall Terry has a very questionable past, or that his other less scurrilous achievements have not yet been documented by people who know more and/or his supporters. Likely both are true. :) Neurophyre 04:18, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)

An article that is entirely factual may still fail to be NPOV if it does not state the whole story. The problem with this article is it doesn't seem to include a single fact about his achievements. If he's still the head of an organisation then someone must think he's on the right wavelength. I'm not going to put an NPOV alert tag on the article because I don't know enough to say that it is definitvely not NPOV, but it doesn't seem to be the acme of neutrality. Dbiv 20:29, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I don't disagree with you, but the only thing I know about his achievements that I haven't yet added is that he worked with James Kopp when founding Operation Rescue -- Kopp later went on to murder an abortion doctor. Probably doesn't help your issue with the article. :) Like I said, probably someone will come along and fix it soon, I just added what I knew. Neurophyre 20:49, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I'm sure there are plenty of people out there who think Clinton should have had a dead fetus sent to him and the Lawrence majority should have been impeached. The problem with such an extreme figure is that an account of his actions are pretty much all going to look like criticism to those who aren't in his particular ideological camp. But this article definitely needs to be expanded. Maybe someone will find something he did that moderates will agree with. ; ) Postdlf 20:55, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Anyone have the recent comments he made about empowering pro-lifers? Suggested add to quotes.

Regarding the comments about NPOV-ness, the problem with writing a balanced article is that there is virtually nothing positive that anyone can say about this guy. Most neo-con Republicans tend to distance themselves from him, which should be saying something. Many of his supporters would seem incapable of saying anything good about him beyond "he is a true man of the Lord" (which, IMHO, is B$ and very NPOV). Jamyskis Whisper, Contribs 07:48, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

Terri Schiavo

this article needs to discuss much further randall terry's role in the terri schaivo media circus. Kingturtle 07:35, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

You are so right. -- Pinktulip 08:08, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Regarding paragraph: "Post-lawsuit activities"

The lawsuit, Now v Schindler, just ended recently, so this paragraph name is not the best. I plan, in the next few days, to group the items that relate to *infidelity* in a separate paragraph. MartinGugino 21:20, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

I moved the text around. It still needs work certainly on citations. The hyperlinks seem unhelpful: a reference to an article in the Washington Post has a link to the newspaper, whereas what one would want is a link to the article. MartinGugino 22:02, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

The website "Answers.com" takes its answers on Randal Terry right from Wikipedia! [1] Yikes.

I have used the text that was in this paragraph to make a few others: Personal problems, political activities, and Terri Schiavo. You are welcome to make further changes from here. It is, to my eyes, better organized now, but still has some weak sourcing. MartinGugino 05:27, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

I removed some poorly cited items: A reference to "a New York court". I am sure it is true, but I can't find a reference. The housing issue was not presented clearly: The new house in St Augustine cost (it said) $400K, which is not remarkable in itself. The remarkable thing is more that he claimed to be broke, and raised funds for the new house, after having settled with NOW and declaring bankruptcy to avoid payment in a case that later NOW lost anyway. His ex-wife allegedly was put on the hook for his settlement, and then HE raised money to be made-whole, and shorted her. That's the slimy part. But the facts need to be marshaled better. The added quote from Flip Benham via Poole is at least documented, and cited, and contains the essence of the complaint.

External links

I would suggest that as many of these as possible are turned into references (citations). Otherwise there are simply too many. Rich Farmbrough, 18:23 25 February 2007 (GMT).

Moved below. Someone else can re-insert in to the main article as a ref or external link, but this format is unacceptable.

Older articles

Sites mentioning NOW settlement

April

2009

[2]
[3]

Moved the quote box back into article under "Works" heading. — LisaSmall ^T/C 01:09, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Personal Life Rewritten to Comply with WP:BLP

The article has been justifiably tagged for a lack of citations. To address that, I re-wrote the "personal life" section today, providing citations to every fact, and multiple citations for those I thought might be most controversial. I was very careful about WP:BLP. The sources included mainstream publications such as CNN transcripts, the New York Times and the Washington Post, as well as pro-Terry sources such as the Catholic Register and other Catholic publications. The only Terry-critical source I used was AU, for quotes directly from the letter of censure, which are easily confirmed because the censure was so widely reported. What made AU the best source was its use of the exact words of the letter. Where ever possible, I used Terry's own words. Other sections need similar citation-heavy rewrites. His record of activism much longer than the article currently details. It would be great if someone interested in this issue would start an article on Patrick J. Mahoney, long Terry's right-hand man but eventually his competitor. — LisaSmall ^T/C 00:11, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Someone should probably remove the bit from the Bio block, indicating Randal Terry's profession as "Douchebag". Just saying. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.103.195.206 (talk) 06:29, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

This sentence is found at the end of the first paragraph of the Personal Life section "Terry's controversial and sometimes sexual relationships with three of his adult children and his two wives have frequently made news." While technically correct, it is grammatically unclear, implying that Randall had sexual relationships with his adult children. While I dislike the guy as much as anyone else, this does not appear to be true, and should probably be clarified. Stryc9 18:53, 9 November 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Davidallenhayes (talk • contribs)

I suggest we do some reseach. If Ted Haggard, Eddie Long, and the Catholic priests are any indication, that may well be the reality. But yes, even though I think Terry is a piece of $%$%, we need to fix this if necessary to comply with WP:BLP. -RadicalOne•^{Contact Me}•_{Chase My Tail} 19:19, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Beginning of article, the main thing RT is famous for

I have expanded the first sentence to include the main thing he became famous for and still the main thing he's famous for now: blockading clinic entrances by means of passive group obstruction. That's who he is, he's the block-the-abortion-clinics guy. Everything else he does is just variations on theme. No change in content, just a change in order, so no new source. SingingZombie (talk) 09:40, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

UPDATE, someone edit-warred me, reverting my change. I am de-edit-warring, by de-reverting! Please stop edit-warring against me, it's against wiki rules. SingingZombie (talk) 03:33, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

It goes deeper than that actually. He was integral in starting the "wanted posters" of Abortion doctors...

...that have led to dozens of murders over the past couple of decades. The man is a Christian Jihadist. I would argue he is Dominionist, not Catholic. But since I have no sources on that, I will not make that change. 70.26.73.138 (talk) 02:52, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

"promotes the killing of doctors"

I removed this content (and was not the first to do so) per WP:BLP which authorizes the immediate removal of "contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced". The editor, User:70.26.69.155 cites a comment of Terry's that he/she characterizes as "we will find you and kill you." I found the quote at this source cited by User:70.26.69.155. Now, I'm not sure how reliable this source is, as it is obviously hostile to Terry's ilk, but even granting its reliability the quote does not support User:70.26.69.155's argument. In its entirety, it reads: "When I, or people like me, are running the country, you'd better flee, because we will find you, we will try you, and we'll execute you. I mean every word of it. I will make it part of my mission to see to it that they are tried and executed." This is clearly advocating the criminalization of abortion and the prosecution of abortion doctors as murderers, which is clearly an extreme position, but it is not the same as advocating the extra-judicial murder of abortion doctors by rogue citizens.

It might be appropriate to mention this quote in the article, with proper sourcing and proper context. But the summary wording was inappropriate, as was (I think) its placement in the article's lead section. --BlueMoonlet (t/c) 04:24, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

There is another problem. Are you aware of the "wanted" posters of abortion doctors - with all of their personal information - that have been distributed and have always led to the killings of the doctor featured? Terry's organization is the one who started that practice, and one of the major perpetuators of it. -RadicalOne•^{Contact Me}•_{Chase My Tail} 13:02, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Edit: I forgot. There is also the issue of Terry's organization having connectiions to Scott Roeder, the murderer of Dr. George Tiller. An then there are Terry's comments afterward that, while they express regret he was not given a chance to repent, express a pleasure at his death.

How about we add something less inflammatory and less controversial, and more obviously supported by the sources, such as "...a pro-life activist that believes abortion is tantamount to murder and thus a capital offence" in the lead, with perhaps an expansion on that later in the article? (There should be some mention in the lead because it is a major facet of Terry and his activism.)

PS The objection to the veracity of the quotes does not hold water. One can simply google them and get dozens of references all pointing at Terry. Denying that is no different than a conspiracy theorist rejecting the quoting of one of Alex Jones' signature "The bankers are putting poison in all our foods and trying to kill me" rants as fabricated to denigrate their position. -RadicalOne•^{Contact Me}•_{Chase My Tail} 15:11, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

I did not mean to deny that the quote was accurate, I was just saying that I don't know (not being very well-versed on this topic) and pointing out that a more neutral source might be desirable. The article already has what appears to be a good discussion of Terry's comments on Tiller's death. My understanding of Terry's comments (and it is certainly possible that someone will furnish a quote that is a counter-example) is that while he believes abortion should be illegal and should be punished by the state as murder, he has not actually advocated illegal killing of abortion doctors. Unless you know of a quote that I don't, "expressed pleasure at his death" is an interpretation that goes beyond what Terry said. Yes, I am aware of the posters, which push the line considerably (Terry excels at that) and should be presented for what they are but not interpreted.

I just added some text to the Intro on this topic and I hope it will be sufficient. --BlueMoonlet (t/c) 15:38, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Yes, a neutral source is desirable, but unfortunately such things are rare on topics like this, that polarize people into either agreeing with Terry or taking the other position "Terry is dangerously close to inciting violence".

As for the posters, my issue is this. The first time when they did it for David LaMond Gunn and he was murdered, it could be claimed as unforeseeable. Perhaps even the second time, for George Patterson. Perhaps even the third time (whose victim was two unnamed clinic assistants). But surely by the twelfth time they know what happens when these posters go out, and yet they still are doing it, even today. The evidence is circumstantial, but it is rather strong. Where I come from, Terry or other officials of Operation Rescue would have been tried for knowingly putting someone's life at risk, a very serious offence the first time, and capital the second. (Or, if multiple people or the intents are especially clear, capital immediately). This is most often used for things like airline officials knowingly using cheap parts on their aircraft or architects knowingly designing buildings that will ultimately fail (a la SamPoong Disaster), but it applies here. There is little way it could be more obvious without either Terry explicitly condoning the killings - and even then there would probably be controversy.

As it is, however, your edits are definitely helpful, since we do need to be careful about WP:BLP.

-RadicalOne•^{Contact Me}•_{Chase My Tail} 15:54, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Out of curiosity, how many posters has Operation Rescue published/distributed/"allowed others to distribute at their events"? How many doctors have died? --Kevinkor2 (talk) 07:48, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

I do not know exactly how many posters have been published, though the number is around 12-20. As for the number of doctors, eight or nine have been murdered, plus a number of assistants and things like that. And there are the hundreds of bombings (admittedly rarely due solely to these posters) logged by the National Abortion Federation. -RadicalOne•^{Contact Me}•_{Chase My Tail} 14:03, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the info, RadicalOne.

I checked the NAF website, www.prochoice.org, and I see that threatening speech, including wanted posters, were involved in 1,800 acts of violence by June 27, 2003:

The 9th Circuit ruled that the climate of violence against abortion providers was so strong that the "Wanted" posters and Nuremberg Files constituted threats that are not protected by the First Amendment. The National Abortion Federation maintains a comprehensive tracking system of anti-choice violence. Since 1977 we have documented 7 murders, 17 attempted murders, 41 bombings, 168 arsons, 3 kidnappings, 100 butyric acid attacks, 654 anthrax threats, 355 death threats and 455 stalkings. Two of the murders occurred after the distribution of 'Wanted' posters. The Nuremberg Files web site crossed out Dr. Barnett Slepian's name shortly after he was murdered in 1998. There can be no question that threats against abortion providers and the subsequent violence are connected.[4]

--Kevinkor2 (talk) 11:35, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

OK, so my numbers were a bit high for specific crimes, but overall the violence is even worse than I thought. Especially considering that data does not include post-2003 violence, such as the killing of George Tiller, partly spurred by, you guessed it, the posters, like the first (unsuccessful) time.

PS Why Butanoic Acid? All that will do is make a smell, and there are better things for that.

And that Slepian murder really disturbs me. Slepian was shot by a sniper while in his home...meaning more organization behind that one than some of the other shootings....and their crossing him off the "death list" under such circumstances is deeply suspicious. -RadicalOne•^{Contact Me}•_{Chase My Tail} 12:53, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

he's running for president

i don't know how to add a source. but below is the link to an article about him running against obama...

http://www.sunshinestatenews.com/story/pro-life-activist-randall-terry-looks-defeat-barack-obama-2012-dem-primaries —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.149.114.254 (talk) 19:11, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Done Source added, along with others.--JayJasper (talk) 16:40, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

Popular culture allusions

He was mentioned in the opening line to the Tumor Circus song "Meathook Up My Rectum" (written by Jello Biafra, who incidentally is also weighing a 2012 presidential bid). Is this notable enough to mention? That song was released back in 1991, which goes to show that this guy has been making the news for a long time.... [5] Difluoroethene (talk) 04:57, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

NPOV Violation

"Terry has long been known for provocative and controversial statements, including that abortion is murder and should be made a capital crime." Calling one side of an issue "provocative" is a violation of the NPOV issue. Please update the sentence accordingly. 214.13.69.132 (talk) 07:40, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 31 October 2012

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Randall Almira Terry (born 1959) is an American pro-life activist. Terry founded the pro-life organization Operation Rescue. The group became particularly prominent beginning in 1987 for blockading the entrances to abortion clinics; Terry led the group until 1991.[1] He has been arrested more than 40 times,[2] most recently for protesting President Barack Obama's commencement visit to the University of Notre Dame in violation of a no-trespass order from the school.[3] Terry has long been known for provocative and controversial statements, including that abortion is murder and should be made a capital crime. Zivkov34 (talk) 10:27, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

Done: The only change I see here is the removal of the "candidate for president" clause of the opening sentence. I have removed it, as a lead sentence should summarize the subject of the article in one sentence. Since he was a fringe candidate I do not consider his bid for the presidency to be one of the most important details of an encyclopedia biography on this person. That being said, I have no objection to re-adding a sentence or two on his presidential bid to a lower paragraph of the lead section, as the lead section should be an abbreviated version of the rest of the article.

In the future, when using the {{edit protected}} or {{edit semi-protected}} tags, please phrase your requested change in a "change x to y" format. Thank you. —KuyaBriBri^Talk 15:12, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

Congress 1998

When he ran for Congress in 1998, am I right in thinking he did this as a Republican and lost out to another Republican? His time with the Democrats and as Independent seems to be later. The Big Hoof! (talk) 19:44, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

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Awkward wording, very confusing until I re-read it several times!

"... most recently for protesting President Barack Obama's commencement visit to the University of Notre Dame in violation of a no-trespass order from the school."

President Barack Obama violated a no-trespass order from Notre Dame??? I don't think so. Please fix it! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.109.75.166 (talk) 18:11, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

It's on Notre Dame for issuing a no-trespass order on their own speaker. 2001:171B:2274:7C21:B13D:6306:7B8E:4356 (talk) 00:05, 13 April 2022 (UTC)

More Quotes

"When I, or people like me, are running the country, you’d better flee, because we will find you, we will try you, and we’ll execute you. I mean every word of it. I will make it part of my mission to see to it that they are tried and executed." -Randall Terry

Quoted in Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion, p. 330. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:171B:2274:7C21:B13D:6306:7B8E:4356 (talk) 00:13, 13 April 2022 (UTC)