Talk:Project Dream

Keep this article

There's no need to say that this article's sources aren't reliable - there is plenty of information out there to support this article. Grant Kirkhope himself describes about Project Dream himself on his website. Two years ago I became very interested in Project Dream, I had to search everywhere and even ask Kirkhope himself about the game that eventually became Banjo Kazooie. All of its content is NOT original research, I wrote it myself because I became fascinated with Project Dream two years ago. This article is also my first article I ever created (not that is very supportive), but there is no real reason to delete this article. The sources in it are fine and this article tells the truth. Jaguar (talk) 11:58, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

It is not enough to simply say, "this article tells the truth". You have to prove it with reliable sources. I understand you are very interested in Project Dream but there is a lot of unsourced material in this article. For example, the gameplay section complete lacks reliable sources and has material that can easily be challenged. I'm going to at least place a {{Template:Refimprove}} for the moment. --Niwi3 (talk) 12:16, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

OK, I've added a few sources as Grant Kirkhope himself is the only reliable source out there (he worked on Project Dream and by far he is the only person I know who has released information about the game). Project Dream is so hard to find out - Rare do like keeping secrets. Jaguar (talk) 20:23, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Just so you know, before creating an article here at Wikipedia, make sure you have enough, good, reliable, published, third-party sources. In the previous reply you said that there was plenty (with emphasis) of info out there to support the article and now you say that Project Dream is very hard to find out. I'm not trying to start a fight, I just want a good reason to keep this article. In my opinion, Banjo-Kazooie has just the right and necessary info that summarizes this article pretty nicely. Why does Project Dream deserve a separate article? --Niwi3 (talk) 20:05, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

"Rare Revealed" - Dream

As part of their "Rare Revealed" series on YouTube, Rare has released an episode focusing on Dream and its transition into Banjo-Kazooie. The video includes a lot of previously-unknown details regarding the game's development, such as a logo for the game, Dinger's functionality in gameplay, and the differences between the Super Nintendo and Nintendo 64 versions of the game. Would someone be willing to comb through the video and add the relevant details to the article? -- 136.181.195.25 (talk) 17:19, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

Clarification

I have two requests. In [1] this edit, I added a {{clarify}} tag around my insufficient attempt to make sense of some incoherent text. I don't know the source material, so that's my attempt to bluntly copy edit that. So somebody who knows the TRUTH needs to revise it. Also, in the first paragraph of the Development section, I weakly attempted to provide sentence structure for somebody to clarify the point at which it was called Dream: Land of Giants and the point at which it was called Project Dream. I don't know which is which but I guess maybe it would make more sense if Dream: Land of Giants came second because that's more specific. I dunno the source story. Please find and cite that source, and reorder the prose if needed. By the way, I'm pretty sure I cited all the pertinent info about Dream out of the "Rare Revealed: A Rare Look" video but I didn't look at all in the other "Rare Revealed" video that I cited, so there's probably more content there. This article mustn't be a load of WP:FANCRUFT but I gave one example illustrating the methods by which content can survive a drastic transformation of a title. Maybe something else can be included if it's a truly defining characteristic. And you might find an easter egg if you search google for "The Making of Banjo-Kazooie" Retro Gamer. Thanks. — Smuckola(talk) 21:58, 9 October 2017 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Project Dream/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: CelestialWeevil (talk · contribs) 23:23, 18 October 2018 (UTC)

This looks like a neat topic. I'll do my best to review it well. CelestialWeevil ^(talk) 23:23, 18 October 2018 (UTC)

Infobox and lead

• Developed by Rare, the game... – Because the sentence preceding this says 'game' twice, for the sake of variety replacing 'the game' here with 'the project' could ease readability. This applies throughout the rest of the lead, also; there are many instances of 'it' being used to refer to Project Dream, several instances of 'game', and no instances of 'project' aside from the first listing of the title. Unless you think 'project' is a bad descriptor, adding it into the mix would help for variety's sake. It would read less mechanically.
  • Done JOEBRO64 02:50, 19 October 2018 (UTC)

• After transitioning to the N64, it became a larger, 3D RPG... – The comma between 'larger' and '3D' is unnecessary; commas in a series of adjectives are employed when the adjectives are describing the same or a similar aspect of the noun.
  • Done JOEBRO64 02:50, 19 October 2018 (UTC)

• ...larger, 3D RPG that had a larger emphasis... – Two instances of 'larger' in the same sentence could be eased by replacing the former with 'more complex' or the latter with 'greater'.
  • Done JOEBRO64 02:50, 19 October 2018 (UTC)

Premise

• The screenshot here is definitely fair use, but you may want to expand the rationale on the image's page to eliminate any doubts.

• ...that focused on a boy named Edison, and his pets... – The comma before 'and' is unnecessary since what follows isn't an independent clause.
  • Done JOEBRO64 02:50, 19 October 2018 (UTC)

• In its story, a band of pirates who piloted airships searched for... – Two things here. To be technically correct, 'who piloted airships' would need to be set off with a comma before and after. Because this would look messy, I recommend changing this sentence beginning to 'In its story, a band of airship-piloting pirates search...' This also fixes the second issue, which is the past-tense 'piloted' and 'searched'. Things within the story should be recounted in present tense. I'll explain this more in the next point.

• As per WP:PLOTPRESENT, everything plot-related after 'In its story...' should be in present tense. 'searched' should be 'search', 'allowed' should be 'allow', and so on.
  • I'm aware of this, but I chose to write about it in the past because, per MOS:VG#Verb tense, canceled/shut down games should be referred to in the past tense. I feel like it'd read kinda weirdly if it jumped from past to present, then to past again. JOEBRO64 02:50, 19 October 2018 (UTC)

• version of the game used an isometric... – This sentence is straight from the lead, so I would change it a little. Two issues can be fixed with one change: replacing 'used' with 'employed'. This would both alter an otherwise copied sentence and alleviate repitition of the word 'used', which appears in the sentence directly after this with 'Edison used a wooden...'
  • Done JOEBRO64 02:50, 19 October 2018 (UTC)

• As per MOS:REFPUNCT, punctuation must precede a reference tag. Reference 1 after 'used a wooden sword' should be moved after the nearest comma.
  • I had no idea. Fixed this and all other instances. JOEBRO64 02:50, 19 October 2018 (UTC)

• became a larger, 3D... – Another unnecessary comma and another opportunity to differentiate body prose from the lead by replacing a word or two.
  • Done JOEBRO64 02:50, 19 October 2018 (UTC)

Development

• Disambiguate 'cartridge' and 'David Wise' wikilinks ('cartridge' to ROM cartridge and 'David Wise' to David Wise (composer), probably).
  • Fixed JOEBRO64 02:50, 19 October 2018 (UTC)

• Dream used Donkey Kong Country's graphics technology to an advanced level – This sentence is kind of weird and strikes me as not strictly encyclopedic. You might want to rewrite it.

• At the end of the first paragraph, there's another instance of a reference 1 tag occurring after no punctuation.

• After the transition to the N64... – You could remove an instance of the oft-repeated 'N64' term by changing this sentence beginning to 'After this transition...'
  • Done JOEBRO64 02:50, 19 October 2018 (UTC)

• According to Rare's Gregg Mayles, the team did not want the game to be too childish. – This should have a citation after it. Even if it comes from the same source as the citation at the end of the following sentence, I think it's important to have a tag here since it's talking directly about what Mayles said.
  • Done JOEBRO64 02:50, 19 October 2018 (UTC)

• Another misplaced reference tag, this time reference 5 in paragraph 2.

• ...have human qualities, and was given... – An unnecessary comma
  • Removed JOEBRO64 02:50, 19 October 2018 (UTC)

• They also could not find how it would be enjoyable. – I think it's important to specify by adding 'to play' at the end of this sentence.
  • Done JOEBRO64 02:50, 19 October 2018 (UTC)

• Another misplaced reference tag, this time reference 4 in paragraph 3.

• David Wise was also contributing... – Unnecessary passive voice; I would change this to 'David Wise also contributed...' or 'David Wise was also a contributor...'
  • Fixed JOEBRO64 02:50, 19 October 2018 (UTC)

Aftermath and legacy

• ...they realized it was going to set the standard for 3D games and made their project look outdated. – This can be interpreted in a way that's technically correct, but it's an impediment to readability. I would change 'made' to 'make'. It retains mostly the same meaning and smooths it, though not strictly necessary.
  • I've changed to "make" JOEBRO64 02:50, 19 October 2018 (UTC)

References

• On reference 2, add the author's first name, Anthony
  • Whoops, fixed. JOEBRO64 02:50, 19 October 2018 (UTC)

• As per Help:Citation Style 1#Titles and chapters, please use either title or sentence case consistently. References 1 and 2 are title case, while 3, 4, 11, and 13 are sentence case.
  • Put 'em all in title case, since that's what (in my opinion) the most important refs used and they'd look funky if they were in sentence JOEBRO64

• Also as per that help link above, words like 'of' shouldn't be capitalized even if it is in the actual article's title. Reference 6 capitalizes 'of'
  • Done JOEBRO64 02:50, 19 October 2018 (UTC)

• Reference 10 is dead or lost; switch to archive, please
  • Fixed. The deadurl just said "no", changed it to "yes" JOEBRO64 02:50, 19 October 2018 (UTC)

• On reference 13, Gamasutra doesn't italicize their name. Switch it from website= to publisher=
  • Done JOEBRO64 02:50, 19 October 2018 (UTC)

I like the article. It's very interesting. I'll read through again and see if I can find anything else soon. CelestialWeevil ^(talk) 00:27, 19 October 2018 (UTC)

@CelestialWeevil: thank you for reviewing! I've responded to most points. I don't have much time now and I'm going to be off Wikipedia for the weekend; I'll correct any existing/new issues when I get back on. JOEBRO64 02:50, 19 October 2018 (UTC)

@TheJoebro64: Thanks for the prompt action! I've now read the article three times and have verified several citations. It's a good article, and so it passes! Below are a few very minor things that can be improved when you want to:

• In the final paragraph of 'Aftermath and legacy', because "Rare Revealed: A Rare Look at Dream" is a short episode in a bigger series (that being Rare Revealed) it should appear in quotes instead of italics (MOS:MINORWORK)
• In that same section, Rare Replay is wikilinked twice. The second instance doesn't need the link, I think. CelestialWeevil ^(talk) 03:58, 19 October 2018 (UTC)

End comments

1. Well-written: Yep
2. Verifiable with no original research: Yes
3. Broad in its coverage: Yes
4. Neutral: Yes
5. Stable: Yes
6. Illustrated: As much as is possible

Great and interesting article! CelestialWeevil ^(talk) 04:02, 19 October 2018 (UTC)

Edson vs Edison

I changed all references of "Edison" to Edson, and someone changed it back citing the auto-generated captions on the Rare Revealed videos on YouTube as a reference -- these captions are auto-generated by YouTube and absolutely cannot be used as a reference for the protagonist's name. The Rare Revealed video for Dream on YouTube (Rare Revealed: A Rare Look at Dream) has a description written by Rare that says "...the adventure of boy hero Edson and his dog Dinger". Not only does this reference trump the captions auto-generated by YouTube, but it has been confirmed numerous times on Twitter and in interviews that the protagonist's name is "Edson". There is no doubt about this, and you may feel free to ask the original developers on Twitter yourself to confirm it for the twentieth time (Gregg Mayles, Steve Mayles, Chris Sutherland, Paul Machacek, Ed Bryan, etc). The developers in the Rare Revealed video even say "Edson". Please do not revert these edits. — Preceding unsigned comment added by RdCrestdBreegull (talk • contribs) 02:36, 23 June 2019 (UTC)