Talk:Primerica

Inquiry on the Multi-Level Marketing (MLM) Claim About Primerica

I am inquiring about issues with the multi-level marketing (MLM) claim made on Wikipedia about Primerica, particularly the reliability of the sources used.

Assessing the Wikipedia page’s information, one reference for the MLM claim is one piece in Business Insider, from 2010, by Vincent (Vince) Veneziani, who had worked at Everdeen Private Capital, per LinkedIn (among other companies, like Hedgeye Risk Management and Golden Archer Investments). Everdeen Private Capital appears to have a team at multiple levels and markets financial products—and its website is just a WordPress page (even with the WP icon still there in a Google search of it). For his article, Veneziani’s sources primarily include online forums. He seems to imply that having multiple levels, in whatever form, is “multi-level marketing.” But Everdeen Private Capital also has senior representatives, still in tiered positions relative to newer representatives. Realistically, the piece on Business Insider, and some like it on Forbes, are essentially opinion pieces, not bound to facts or evidence. They can be written with a slant, without an objective point of view. Given Veneziani’s competing business interests in the financial services industry, his piece does not seem reliable to source the MLM claim about Primerica.

See [10] Veneziani, Vince (April 1, 2010). “Meet Primerica, The New Wall Street IPO That’s Really A Multi-Level Marketing Scheme.” Business Insider. https://www.businessinsider.com/citigroup-primerica-ipo-2010-4

Veneziani published an "Ask Me Anything" Reddit post nine years ago discussing his past experiences in the financial services industry at the following link, as archived: https://web.archive.org/web/20230124042432/http://web.archive.org/screenshot/https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/265zjj/im_an_author_journalist_entrepreneur_and_trader.

Cited on Wikipedia, a 2012 source for the MLM claim about Primerica comes from Ryan Chittum, in the Columbia Journalism Review. The only spot in his piece mentioning Primerica says, “1988: Weill buys Primerica, a sketchy multilevel-marketing (pyramid style) firm that sells term life insurance.” Chittum’s source for this claim is a May 1, 1994 piece by Michael Quint, in The New York Times, titled “Mischief Under the Travelers Umbrella.” There is not any deeper elaboration by Chittum; he simply references a 1994 article in his 2012 “listicle.”

See [11] Chittum, Ryan (March 9, 2012). “200 Years of Citi: An alternate history.” Columbia Journalism Review. Retrieved November 7, 2018. https://archives.cjr.org/the_audit/an_alternate_history_of_citigr.php

Another more recent source is a 2016 essay, by Michelle Celarier, in Slate, on Herbalife and MLMs. The only sentence mentioning Primerica says, “Timothy Muris, who was head of the FTC during the Bush era, along with J. Howard Beales, the director of the FTC’s Bureau of Consumer Protection during the same period, lobbied for the exclusion as representatives for Primerica Financial, an MLM that sells insurance.” Celarier neither provides any source for referring to Primerica as an MLM nor elaborates on this claim.

See [12] Celarier, Michelle (May 9, 2016). “Herbalife’s Endgame.” Slate. Retrieved September 24, 2017. https://slate.com/business/2016/05/the-government-is-finally-closing-in-on-herbalife-herbalife-will-fight-back-hard.html

The other cited reference on Wikipedia happens to be a self-published book—“Community Press,” not any recognized publisher—titled Primerica MLM: Making Network Marketing Simple by Pam Hogan, published on December 2, 2010. Hogan alleges that she, in fact, had been involved with various MLMs—since high school. Her book can only be purchased and read in Kindle and has not shown paperback options via Amazon. Apparently, Hogan has written multiple books, all self-published in 2010, with similar titles. These include Arbonne MLM: Network Marketing You Can Wrap Your Brain Around (December 2, 2010), Nu Skin MLM: New Ways of Doing Network Marketing Right (December 2, 2010), Reliv MLM: Making Money Through Network Marketing (December 2, 2010), and about thirteen other similarly titled works. In each, she alleges long-term experience in various MLMs and provides “guides” to readers. A further search under Hogan’s author profile shows these works. The descriptions for the books appear to be quite similar, except the name of the company in question is changed. This source also does not seem reliable, given that anybody can self-publish and Hogan does not seem reputable.

See [45] Primerica MLM: Making Network Marketing Simple. www.amazon.com. Community Press. December 2, 2010. Retrieved March 4, 2021. https://www.amazon.com/Primerica-MLM-Making-Network-Marketing-ebook

In response to the MLM claim about Primerica, sources like Investor’s Business Daily and Business Wire indicate the contrary. According to Investor’s Business Daily, as of 2022, Primerica was ranked number one in Most Trusted Life Insurance Companies. It has been ranked above well-known companies, which also happen not to be MLMs. In addition, it ranked number three in Most Trusted Financial Companies, above State Farm at 21, Progressive at 23, and GEICO at 24. The latter companies did not even rank on life insurance; they only ranked on auto and home, as seen in the list.

See Morey Stettner (August 29, 2022). “Trusted Insurers Deliver On Their Promises.” Investor’s Business Daily. https://www.investors.com/news/top-insurance-companies-customer-trust-2022

See IBD Staff (August 29, 2022). “IBD’s 25 Most Trusted Financial Companies.” Investor’s Business Daily. https://www.investors.com/news/most-trusted-financial-companies-top-25-list-2022

Business Wire reports “Primerica Ranked on Fortune 1000® List for Third Consecutive Year,” as of 2022. It reads:

“The Fortune 1000® is the annual ranking by Fortune Magazine of the 1,000 largest U.S. public companies, listed in order of reported revenue. With revenues of approximately $2.7 billion in fiscal year 2021, Primerica ranks number 895 in the most recent list, up from number 980 in 2020 when the company debuted the list.”

The “About Primerica, Inc.” section on Business Wire reads as follows:

“Primerica, Inc., headquartered in Duluth, GA, is a leading provider of financial services to middle-income households in North America. Independent licensed representatives educate Primerica clients about how to better prepare for a more secure financial future by assessing their needs and providing appropriate solutions through term life insurance, which we underwrite, and mutual funds, annuities and other financial products, which we distribute primarily on behalf of third parties. We insured over 5.7 million lives and had over 2.7 million client investment accounts on December 31, 2021. Primerica, through its insurance company subsidiaries, was the #2 issuer of Term Life insurance coverage in the United States and Canada in 2021. Primerica stock is included in the S&P MidCap 400 and the Russell 1000 stock indices and is traded on The New York Stock Exchange under the symbol ‘PRI.’”

See (June 20, 2022). “Primerica Ranked on Fortune 1000® List for Third Consecutive Year.” Business Wire. https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20220620005488/en

The above description from Business Wire would be far more objective than using the descriptor “multi-level marketing," as seen on Wikipedia. Writing “Primerica has been described as a multi-level marketing company,” and categorizing it as such using the sources assessed, presents multiple problems. It sells what seems to be speculation by disputable sources as objective and factual. Importantly, it ultimately serves to misrepresent not only the company but also its representatives, doing harm in the form of damage to reputation and finance. Thus, even if not deliberate, this misrepresentation can be described as defamation.

Reliable sources, from reputable publications on business and finance, and the accompanying rankings, as noted, are public information and can be easily verified. Neither the recent source at Investor’s Business Daily nor the one at Business Wire appears in the references for the Wikipedia page on Primerica. Instead, there appears to be a pointed focus on the company allegedly being an MLM.

An MLM would not be publicly traded on the New York Stock Exchange (NYSE) or ranked alongside—and, importantly, above—State Farm, Progressive, and GEICO. Nor would an MLM be ranked on the Fortune 1000®, a list that features a number of legitimate companies like Walmart, Amazon, and Apple—not MLMs. MLMs do not require state and federal licensing or, regarding the financial services industry, comply with the Financial Industry Regulatory Authority (FINRA). MLMs do not require adherence to the state and federal regulations that extend to an entire industry and the companies within it. An MLM would not fulfill the above, especially requiring state and federal licensing. These facts undermine the MLM claim about Primerica since, all things being considered, other companies would qualify as MLMs on this basis. Related examples would include State Farm, Progressive, and GEICO. Donovan Cleckley (talk) 05:07, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Lemonaka (talk) 01:45, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

Change multi level marketing. Primerica is not an mlm 99.228.58.50 (talk) 02:45, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Requested Around MLM Comments

@LemonakaI am following up on the MLM comments list in the last entry on this Talk page entitled: Inquiry on the Multi-Level Marketing (MLM) Claim About Primerica.

The sources used to substantiate that we are sometimes referred to as a MLM are opinion pieces and do not comply with WP:RS. Given this, I am asking that you consider removing "Primerica has been described as a multi-level marketing company" from the first paragraph altogether. In addition, would ask that you consider removing the mention of MLM from the info box where it is used to describe the industry of the company. Primerica is a financial services company and MLM is a marketing strategy (see: https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Multi-level_marketing) and not an industry. Our company pays compensation to representatives based on an insurance agency model.

Appreciate anything you can do to help or if you would like to discuss further.

Thanks so much TermLifeOG (talk) 17:16, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

Reply 20-SEP-2023

  Clarification requested  

1. There are three sources in the article which are used to back up this claim. Please describe what it is, about these sources, which does not confirm the given information.
2. When ready to proceed with the requested information, kindly change the {{Edit COI}} template's answer parameter to read from |ans=y to |ans=n. Please note that prior text entered in the Edit request proposal should not be retro-actively altered. Instead, a new reply post supplying the needed information should be posted below this review. The original {{Edit COI}} template may then be altered.

Regards,  Spintendo  19:48, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

Apologies, trying to understand how to respond and change the template's answer parameter. Can you share a link that might explain that? Want be sure I am doing it correctly.

There are a number of improvements that could be made to the article as has been noted by other contributors, but in this specific case I am saying that the sources used are not journalists per se, they are pieces written based on the author's opinion. The one source that might be considered valid is over 13 years old. (https://www.businessinsider.com/citigroup-primerica-ipo-2010-4)

Even with this, the "Primerica has been described as a multi-level marketing company" is redundant in the the opening as it is already discussed in the Products and Business Model section. So given that, can we have it removed from the intro?

Fundamentally, we do not agree with this characterization that we are an MLM. Primerica's independent representatives earn commissions based on personal sales and the sales of the team they recruit and train: representatives do not earn income from the recruitment of other representatives. Representatives expand their businesses by adding representatives to their teams to increase the number of clients they are able serve. Primerica's independent representatives must maintain proper state and federal training and licensing requirements to recommend financial products.

Really appreciate your help!! TermLifeOG (talk) 20:29, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

Hi, @Spintendojust wanting to make sure you had seen this. Wasn't sure if I needed to tag you. Thanks again for your consideration. TermLifeOG (talk) 16:22, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

Request edit on 16 February 2024

• What I think should be changed:

The point on where it says that over 100,000 people work here and make 5 thousand dollars yearly

• Why it should be changed:

This page is very outdated. My father works here and makes more than 5 thousand dollars a year and I think it should be updated

• References supporting the possible change (format using the "cite" button):

Comonbo (talk) 00:47, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

References

Please include a reliable source. Please also note that Wikipedia doesn't publish original research. Thanks. Grayfell (talk) 01:28, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

EDITS TO INFOBOX AND LEAD IN MARCH 2024

@Grayfell: I see you changed the first sentence of the lead and added to the infobox industry to state that Primerica is a multi-level marketing company. I’m hoping we can discuss these edits. I have a COI as an employee of Primerica. I believe your new emphasis in the first sentence and infobox on MLM is not warranted under Wikipedia policy.

First, regarding the lead sentence, most of the press coverage about this public company describes them as financial services and insurance provider, and does not even mention multi-level marketing. Wikipedia should reflect the characterizations of the majority of secondary sources and not overweight a characterization that may have negative stereotypes. WP:UNDUE. The lead should also reflect the body of the article and only a very small amount of the page is about MLM. WP:LEAD.

The sources cited to support the use of MLM in the lead are a passing mention of the company that makes no reference to multi-level marketing and appears to be based on reporting in an article from 1994; a passing mention in an article from 2017; and a highly critical 15-year old Business Insider article.

By contrast, more recent Reliable Sources describe Primerica as an insurance and financial services company, without mention of MLM. These include

• A 2023 article from CBS News: “Health care costs are the top concern among middle-income American households for the first time since 2021, outpacing inflation, according to a national survey from financial service provider Primerica.”

• A 2022 article from Investors Business Daily: “Primerica (PRI) is a newcomer among the top three of IBD's most trusted life insurers category. It soared to the top of this year's survey with an overall score of 83.4 by sticking to its niche of selling term life insurance to Main Street USA.…The company also took the No. 3 ranking on IBD's overall list of the 25 Most Trusted Financial Companies.”

• A 2022 Wall Street Journal article: “Myrna Guerrero, a national sales director for Primerica Inc., one of the nation’s biggest sellers of term-life policies, said it was tragic last year to see young families hit with Covid-19 deaths.”

• A 2024 article from the Houston Chronicle: “The life insurance and financial products company posted revenue of $726.32 million in this period.”

• A 2023 article in the Atlanta Business Chronicle: “Successor named for longstanding Primerica CFO: A public metro Atlanta financial services company is planning for its future.

Second, in the Infobox, Multi-level marketing is not an industry, it’s a marketing strategy. It does not appear in the Infoboxes of even companies that are the best known in the world for MLM Amway and Avon Products. It should be removed.

Regarding the claim that Primerica is an MLM. This statement is simply not true. In reference to a legal document submitted by the company to the SEC, the document clearly states "Our distribution model, which is based on a traditional insurance agency model and borrows aspects from franchising and direct sales, is designed to reach and serve middle-income consumers efficiently by selling to customers through our sales representatives." Statements such as MLM denote a negative public perception towards the company, its affiliates, and its sales force. This statement should be modified based on the company's true representation of its legal filings. Reference document - https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1475922/000156459018003151/pri-10k_20171231.htm#ITEM_1 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:346:4300:15E0:C8BA:27A3:17E9:6228 (talk) 22:06, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for your willingness to engage in this conversation. TermLifeOG (talk) 19:24, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia isn't a platform for promotion or advocacy. Please also carefully review Wikipedia:Conflict of interest, and Wikipedia:Paid-contribution disclosure. Grayfell (talk) 21:30, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

Discussion about undue weight of minority viewpoint

I’d like to start a discussion among editors regarding a recent change made to the page. I have a COI as an employee of the company. The second sentence of the lead paragraph was recently removed by User:Greyfell as a WP:WEASEL, but the editor then incorrectly tried to fix the problem by changing a vague claim into a definitive one. The second sentence had been phrased vaguely in order to dodge conflicting characterizations of the company in the press. The second sentence used to read:

Primerica has been described as a multi-level marketing company.

After deleting the Weasel language, Greyfell edited the first sentence of the lead to definitively describe the company’s primary identifying characteristic as a multi-level marketer and made it the first and most prominent characterization of the company on the page. Here’s the before and after:

−

'''Primerica, Inc.''' is a company that provides [[insurance]], [[Investment management|investment]] and [[financial services]] to middle-income families in the United States and Canada.

+

'''Primerica, Inc.''' is a [[multi-level marketing]]company that provides [[insurance]], [[Investment management|investment]] and [[financial services]] to middle-income families in the United States and Canada.

In actuality, sources conflict as to how they characterize the company. The cited sources used to justify describing the company as a MLM are a a passing mention of the company that makes no reference to multi-level marketing at all] (200 Years of Citi, Columbia Journalism Review, March 2012); a passing mention in an article from 2017 (The government is finally closing in on Herbalife, Slate, 2016) ;and a highly critical 15-year old Business Insider article (Meet Primerica, The New Wall Street IPO That's Really A Multi-Level Marketing Scheme, Business Insider, 2010). But the majority of recent sources describe Primerica as an insurance and financial services company. For example:

• A 2023 article from CBS News: “Health care costs are the top concern among middle-income American households for the first time since 2021, outpacing inflation, according to a national survey from financial service provider Primerica.”
• A 2022 Wall Street Journal article: “Myrna Guerrero, a national sales director for Primerica Inc., one of the nation’s biggest sellers of term-life policies, said it was tragic last year to see young families hit with Covid-19 deaths.”
• A 2024 article from the Houston Chronicle:“The life insurance and financial products company posted revenue of $726.32 million in this period.”

The emphasis on an unflattering characterization of the company in the lead is not justified given that sources diverge in their description of the company, and the majority of recent press coverage does not even mention MLM. WP:UNDUE I’d suggest the lead be reverted to how it read before. I’d suggest something like the following be added as the third paragraph of the lead, which conveys the information without giving undue weight to the primary characterization of the company.

A 2010 Business Insider article described Primerica as a multilevel marketing company.

Or the information could be reserved for the rest of the page where it is already represented by one sentence. What do other editors think? TermLifeOG (talk) 16:31, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

There are many reliable sources explaining how Primerica's MLM scheme works, and warning people of Primerica. I just added another one. It's an important aspect of the company and what reliable sources say about it. It should be mentioned in the first sentence, and it doesn't need weasel words. (Since you mention on your user page that you work for Primerica: Unless you're one of the higher-ups and have no conscience, it would probably be best for you to get out.) — Chrisahn (talk) 21:19, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

First, this was not a Request Edit and should not have been closed. I clearly stated I wished to start a discussion among editors. There was no Request Edit template added and the discussion is not formatted like a Request Edit. Chrisahn acted contrary to Wikipedia consensus building by unilaterally closing a discussion before anyone else could weigh in. Second, I didn’t say that there aren’t media sources that refer to the company as a multi-level marketer. I pointed out that there are many more reliable sources that refer to it as a financial services company and do not mention multi-level marketing.

Here are further examples of reliable sources that refer to Primerica as a financial services company, rather than a multi-level marketer:

Wall Street Journal,

Fox Business,

Bloomberg,

Fortune,

Yahoo Finance.

Third, the article itself has very little content about multi-level marketing. So while it’s fair to include the allegation somewhere in the lead, as had been done until recently, placing it in the first part of the first sentence violates WP: LEAD by dramatically overemphasizing a minor part of the page.

Thanks. TermLifeOG (talk) 15:33, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

Sources that are silent on a point (if the company is an MLM) cannot be construed to contradict the sources that comment on that point. These other citations you are presenting are irrelevant. There is no policy based reason to make this change.

We also should not over attribute it - because we must not render factual statements as mere opinions, just as we would not write 'According to NASA, the Earth is round.' MrOllie (talk) 17:38, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

PS: It is past the time you should have dropped the stick on this one. Making variations of this argument over and over is not going to work. MrOllie (talk) 17:41, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

Request edit on 12 April 2024

• What I think should be changed: Primerica is not a MLM company.
• Why it should be changed: This is misrepresentation of a company started in 1977 and has been a A+ graded insurance company thanks to Primerica's customer service. This could also be legal grounds for defamation by misrepresenting Primerica with a false statement that negatively influences all readers of this false statement at the top of this article.
• References supporting the possible change (format using the "cite" button):

ARichter907 (talk) 06:30, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

References

 Question: How are you related to the subject of the article? Shadow311 (talk) 13:27, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 April 2024

Primerica is registered with the FTC as a general agency not an MLM. To be an MLM it would be registered with the FTC as so. 47.186.116.98 (talk) 01:23, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: Wikipedia doesn't publish original research. If you have a reliable source which explains this, please propose it here for discussion. Please note that in this case, an independent source would be much better. Grayfell (talk) 01:28, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 September 2024

This is a request to change the statement “primerica is a multi level marketing company” to “primerica is an independent financial services company.” Primerica is often misunderstood as a multi-level marketing (MLM) company due to its compensation structure and recruitment strategies. However, there are key distinctions that differentiate it from traditional MLMs. Here's an explanation along with sources:1. **Business Model**: Primerica operates as a financial services company that focuses on providing financial education and various financial products, including life insurance and investment options. Unlike MLMs, which primarily derive income from recruiting new members, Primerica's revenue is largely generated through the sale of financial products.2. **Compensation Structure**: In Primerica, representatives earn commissions based on the products they sell rather than primarily through recruiting others. While there is a recruiting aspect that allows representatives to build a team and earn override commissions, the main emphasis is on sales performance. This contrasts with many MLMs, where income is heavily reliant on recruitment and downline commissions. - **Source**: Primerica’s company overview and compensation structure can be found on their official website and financial publications, which highlight their focus on financial service sales.3. **Licensing Requirements**: Primarily, Primerica agents must obtain licenses to sell insurance and securities, which underscores a professional standard not usually found in MLMs. In most MLMs, participants can join with minimal training and often sell products without any required certifications. - **Source**: State regulatory bodies and the North American Securities Administrators Association (NASAA) provide guidelines on licensing requirements for financial professionals, which apply to Primerica representatives.4. **Regulatory Oversight**: Primerica is regulated by various state and federal authorities given its financial service offerings. MLMs, on the other hand, often face less regulatory scrutiny since they may focus more on the recruitment of individuals than on selling actual products or services. - **Source**: Primerica's compliance with financial regulations can be confirmed through the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) and state insurance regulatory agencies.In summary, while Primerica has some attributes that might remind one of MLM companies, its focus on financial services, regulatory requirements, and a commission structure centered on sales distinguish it from pure MLM operations.For more detailed insights about Primerica, you can check official resources and industry analysis. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Racheljgonsalves (talk • contribs) 01:42, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

1. Are you affiliated with Primerica in any way? Given previous interactions on this talk page, I guess you probably are. If that is the case, you are expected to explicitly state your affiliation. In case you are being paid for your edits, you are required to disclose that fact. See WP:COI for details.

2. Primerica is called an MLM company by multiple reliable sources. That's why our article also says so. Please read the previous discussions on this topic. After you have done so, please explain how your comment adds any new information to these discussions. If you can't provide any new information, your edit request will very likely be rejected.

3. You said "along with sources", but you didn't actually provide any sources. See WP:RS and several other pages for an introduction on what a reliable source is. If you can't provide reliable sources for your claims, your edit request will very likely be rejected.

— Chrisahn (talk) 13:07, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: It's been over three months, OP didn't respond. — Chrisahn (talk) 20:46, 22 December 2024 (UTC)