Talk:Premier of North Korea

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Requested move 12 May 2017

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved. Primefac (talk) 17:18, 7 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Prime Minister of North Korea → Premier of North Korea – This is the official title of the office, by which it is also commonly known Tærkast (Discuss) 19:15, 11 May 2017 (UTC)--Relisting. TonyBallioni (talk) 02:05, 23 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

This is a contested technical request (permalink). SkyWarrior 00:26, 12 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Querying contested move request for TaerkastUA. Pinging John Reaves as well. SkyWarrior 00:26, 12 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Gryffindor: as well. -- John Reaves 16:07, 12 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Move You Western pig-dogs! Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 06:58, 12 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Keep It's the name most commonly known in English, see also Prime Minister of Spain as an example. Also "Premier" could be misconstrued as the actual leader of that state. Gryffindor (talk) 09:11, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

'Comment What about the Premier of the Republic of China, or the Premier of the People's Republic of China? Considering Kim Jong-in holds the titles of Chairman of the State Affairs Commission (now head of state), Chairman of the Workers' Party. I have yet to see any usage referring to Kim as Premier, he's called the leader, or the supreme leader in mainstream usage. As to your assertion about the title being confused with Kim, a quick Google search for Prime Minister of North Korea results in other countries' leaders being referred to in articles, not Kim himself. Additionally, the Spanish example doesn't really work, as it is a completely different title altogether President of the Government, Premier is short and common, and most certainly refers to the head of the Cabinet of North Korea. --Tærkast (Discuss) 15:52, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

You will also find a Google book search of Premier vs a Google book search of Prime Minister immediately turns up far more relevant results to the head of Cabinet than the latter does. A direct search for Premier turns out far more results than Prime Minister--Tærkast (Discuss) 16:00, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. Searching in quote marks returns nearly twice as many sources for "Prime Minister of North Korea" than for "Premier of North Korea".--Cúchullain ^t/c 13:46, 22 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Literally the same argument can be made for Premier of China vs Prime Minister of China, and yet they are at their respective shortened, official titles, with nobody requesting to move the Premier of the Republic of China or Premier of the People's Republic of China to "Prime Minister", both of which are also commonly known as Prime Minister in the Western media. A mere quotation search result should not be regarded as a reason non-use of a far simply and commonly known title, the frequency of which seems to be contentious. --Tærkast (Discuss) 13:55, 22 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I haven't looked into those, but if their titles don't fit WP:COMMONNAME perhaps they should be moved too.--Cúchullain ^t/c 14:13, 22 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

All I'm saying is that both titles are fairly commonly known, and the primary reason for the first oppose is that it would confuse people with Kim Jong-in instead of the actual Premier, which isn't really true. Premier is short and concise, by which the office is equally commonly known, not just by a Google quotation search. I don't think the common usage of "Prime Minister" is overwhelming enough to warrant its keeping at this page. We should probably ask for a longer extension on this requested move, given that it wasn't until 2 days ago that it was commented on really.--Tærkast (Discuss) 14:22, 22 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Cúchullain, GoogleBooks ghit values are unreliable. Try jumping pages down the list and check random hits. At least compare with google ngram: https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Prime+Minister+of+North+Korea%2CPremier+of+North+Korea&case_insensitive=on&year_start=1940&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2CPrime%20Minister%20of%20North%20Korea%3B%2Cc0%3B.t4%3B%2CPremier%20of%20North%20Korea%3B%2Cc0%3B%2Cs0%3B%3BPremier%20of%20North%20Korea%3B%2Cc0%3B%3Bpremier%20of%20North%20Korea%3B%2Cc0 --SmokeyJoe (talk) 06:30, 29 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Going to page 3 of the Google Books hits still returns more for "Prime Minister of North Korea" than for "Premier of North Korea". Additionally, "Prime Minister of North Korea" also returns 3,280 Google News hits compared to only 411 for "Premier of North Korea". I am unable to generate any results showing "Premier" being more common under any search except the nominator's flawed search without quotation remarks (which returns hits for, for instance, "Chinese Vice-Premier to Visit North Korea". Unless someone can present a survey of what appears in the best available sources for the subject, WP:COMMONNAME does not support the proposed move. --Cúchullain ^t/c 14:11, 30 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
OK. I need to look closer. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:41, 30 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support: unsurprisingly, the correct title is what most reliable sources use, which is what WP:COMMONNAME prescribes. Double the results for "premier" in both Google Books and Google Scholar.– Finnusertop (talk ⋅ contribs) 21:19, 23 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support Premier is the correct title and the title used most often amongst quality publications. AusLondonder (talk) 17:49, 28 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support, per usage, consistent with the non-ministerial form of government, and the wider ranging more general word "Premier" applying better. Generally, Prime minsters are all Premiers, but not all Premiers are Prime Ministers; a Prime Minister is the Premier in a Ministerial Government. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 06:27, 29 May 2017 (UTC) Withdraw, having second thoughts. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:41, 30 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
support WP:precise, WP:commonname north korea is not a ministerial government. it's like calling the presedent of the united states... a prime minister... -- Aunva6^{talk - contribs} 05:16, 30 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: I want to reiterate that the nominator's search results are flawed because they did not put the phrases in quotes, and therefore are not getting accurate results. Doing that reveals that "Prime Minister of North Korea" is substantially more common in both Google Books ([1] vs. [2] and Google News ([3] vs. [4]). JSTOR ([5] vs. [6]) returns virtually the same number of hits and both are in well established use in my search at my university library. All of these searches have their own issues, but I don't see much that returns more relevant hits for "Premier of North Korea" than "Prime Minister of North Korea"]. The fact that the title is officially named "Premier" (though not the exact phrase "Premier of North Korea") may be a good reason to support the move, but WP:COMMONNAME is not.--Cúchullain ^t/c 14:11, 30 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Cuchullain Searching in quotes in Google Books yields inaccurate results as well. Out of your "Prime Minister of North Korea" results, none of the top four (Kim Il Sung: The North Korean Leader does not have preview) contain the phrase "Prime Minister of North Korea". Out of the top three "Premier of North Korea" results, none contain the phrase "Premier of North Korea". You can verify this by opening the results and using the Search this book feature. – Finnusertop (talk ⋅ contribs) 00:45, 31 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Finnusertop: Those aren't the "top three" results, they come from several pages into the search. At any rate, no test is perfect and it's possible some of the books don't contain the phrase (or that it's only in a non-available section). But the same is true of the "Premier of North Korea" search.[7][8][9] Per the WP:Search engine test, both searches are more reliable than a non-quoted search which returns results for any book that contains the words "premier", "of", "north", and "Korea".--Cúchullain ^t/c 13:30, 31 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

No-one searches with ". And what has Google Books got to do with the North Korean government? They don't even allow an internet unless made by the state. Support. Hiitsmebobby (talk) 23:23, 30 May 2017 (UTC) or 00:23, 31 May 2017 (BST)[reply]

Hiitsmebobby: Searching via quotation marks is standard practice in common name discussions, as it's the only way to return an exact phrase. As I said above, a blank search for premier of North Korea without quotes returns hits such as "Chinese Vice-Premier to Visit North Korea", which is an irrelevant result. Google Books and Google News are preferred to standard Google search per the WP:COMMONNAME policy, since they draw more reliable sources: "generally a search of Google Books and News Archive should be defaulted to before a web search, as they concentrate reliable sources".--Cúchullain ^t/c 00:10, 31 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Cuchullain: If it's to be referenced by it's common name, should be President of America. People don't say President of the United States a lot. Should be Prime Minister of Great Britain, because that's what we call the office commonly here in the UK. Hiitsmebobby (talk) 01:16, 31 May 2017 (UTC) Don't ask me why I'm up so late.[reply]

"President of the United States" is more common than "President of America" and "Prime Minister of the United Kingdom" is more common than "Prime Minister of Great Britain". Neither are really relevant here, as the actual titles of the position are "President" and "Prime Minister" respectively; there's no other alternative as is the case with "Prime Minister" vs. "Premier" here.--Cúchullain ^t/c 13:30, 31 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comment A Google quotation search alone is not sufficient to justify it remaining at Prime Minister. The fact is, as others have said, most reliable sources use the title Premier, see [10] (which shows Vice Premier not Deputy Prime Minister) CIA The World Factbook, UN protocol The Washington Post The Chicago Tribune LA Times and the aforementioned sources. There's not to say there aren't publications which do use Prime Minister, because there are, but Premier is both common and official. (For the record, this isn't about the longform, otherwise all countries' heads of state and government titles would be quite long here on Wikipedia)--Tærkast (Discuss) 15:49, 31 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with User:Cuchullain. Gryffindor (talk) 22:37, 6 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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