Talk:Pose (TV series)/Archive 1

Archive 1

It's Latinx not Latino

"Latinx" should be used in place of "Latino" when referencing groups of people that are not exclusively cisgender male. (Such groups would include the queer community depicted in Pose). Furthermore, it'd probably be wise to refer to the Afro-descended members of the ballroom community in Pose as Black rather than African-American given that we can't really be sure yet whether the show's Afro-descended characters are ethnically African-American. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2604:6000:1418:4B60:6846:B0A5:1E60:D947 (talk) 22:18, 16 June 2019 (UTC)

"Of" in house names

Why does the article say "House Evangelista", "House Abundance", etc., instead of "House of Evangelista", "House of Abundance", etc.? Within the show the house names all have an "of", and this is also how secondary sources refer to the houses, e.g. The AV Club [1]. Umimmak (talk) 02:02, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

See also

Why is RuPaul's Drag Race, a competition reality show centered on drag queens, in the see also section for Pose? Because they both are American TV shows about LGBTQ people? Because RPDR contestant competing as Jiggly Caliente played a character on Pose? Because Our Lady J played the piano on RPDR? The connection is so tenuous. By that logic one might also add Rent since Mj Rodriguez once played Angel and it's also about LGBT people in New York! The MOS says The links in the "See also" section should be relevant, should reflect the links that would be present in a comprehensive article on the topic, I don't see how it's relevant or why it would warrant inclusion in a comprehensive article. It also says Editors should provide a brief annotation when a link's relevance is not immediately apparent. That seems necessary, if there is concensus to include this. Pinging @BoogerD: @Castncoot: Umimmak (talk) 02:47, 22 July 2018 (UTC)

I expressed my opinion through my initial revert of the edit and my edit summary. I agree that if further editors find that the topic is not closely related enough to the subject of the article than it should be removed. However, I have no vested interest in discussing this further and respectfully wish to be left out of the discussion from this point forward. Have a nice evening, BoogerD (talk) 03:08, 22 July 2018 (UTC)

I think you've misunderstood the connection, Umimmak - it's the drag culture that is common to both RuPaul's Drag Race and the drag ball culture that is a part of Pose. In the meantime, the entry you added to See also is also related to Pose, but from a different facet. They both meet the WP:See also guideline. Now do you see? Castncoot (talk) 03:21, 22 July 2018 (UTC)

@Castncoot: It just seems confusing to include it, especially when we don't see drag in Pose at all (the word drag does not even appear anywhere in the article). And even if you did want to argue drag was related, why just this one particular television show instead of myriad other shows/movies/plays which involve drag? The fact that there is drag in RPDR and that there is drag in the real-life counterparts of the balls which inspired Pose doesn't seem like much of a connection. If there wasn't already a place for it in the Ball Culture navigation box, maybe the See Also section could include other media portrayals of ball culture, but even the connectiom between RPDR and ball culture isn't clear enough that it doesn't warrent an explanation. Umimmak (talk) 04:07, 22 July 2018 (UTC)

I believe there is enough of a connection given the high-profile nature of RPDR to include in See also (we can't realistically include all shows where drag is a major theme), but I don't feel strongly about this particular issue. Castncoot (talk) 04:27, 22 July 2018 (UTC)

At least one of the shows directors/writers has clarified for media in the past that Pose is not about drag queens. Here's a link about that. Considering this, the see also link seems misleading. Rab V (talk) 07:19, 22 July 2018 (UTC)

Cast order

Is there a specific reason to explain why the main lead - MJ Rodriguez - is cited after other cisgender actors playing in the series? --2001:B07:5D37:FD24:CD53:9DE6:5E16:7EB3 (talk) 21:14, 1 February 2019 (UTC)

I was about to write the same message. Not only cisgender, but also white for a tv show about a predominantly black/latinx subculture. I wouldn't say any of the three actors listed first are anyway the three main characters of the show.

However, I've checked the style manual for the cast order (here) and noticed there is a discussion also on the IMDB message board (here) where they say the order should be taken from the show's end credits, so maybe this question should be asked to FX. Netflix Italy's website for Pose anyway lists Mj Rodriguez and Billy Porter first. The cast order is correct according to the first episode's end credits, but it changes in later episodes.

I haven't had edited wikipedia in ages and I find the process of finding out how to fix this technicality and not get it reverted in 10 minutes very tedious. I would ask help to the user who reverted a similar change before, BoogerD, but I don't even know how to tag him. I will try to send him a message, if that's even a thing here...

Walkabout86 (talk) 00:21, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

Cast order is determined by how they're credited on the show, it does not go by screen time, main character, who the story centres around etc. Has nothing to do with their gender or skin colour, just reflects how they're credited by production. WP:TVCAST has further info. Thanks. Brocicle (talk) 00:27, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

Brocicle, that does not address the content of my message, and yes WP:TVCAST was consulted but I haven't found information about different credits at the end of each episode. If you can help clarify, please do. Walkabout86 (talk) 13:52, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

I would like to see us resolve the edit-warring around the cast order. If MOS says we put them in the order the show uses, that is a clear guideline. The guideline is also clear about characters staying in the list even after they've left the show. However, what I don't see addressed in the guidelines is the situation that has happened with this cast: All the top-listed cast members from Season 1 (currently being given top billing) have been totally absent from Season 2. So at this point it's not just about popularity, but complete absence of the actors, and absence of the characters from the storylines, as well.

I suggest we look into how other shows have handled major cast changes of this level of magnitude and see if there's a precedent for putting the current cast as the top list for the article, with actors from both seasons prioritized in the list and those who only appeared in the first season either in a second list, or in the second half of the list. Note: I'm not saying this is the policy, just that I recommend seeing if there is a precedent for this proposed structure. - CorbieV ^☊ ☼ 20:29, 10 August 2019 (UTC)

Cast order should be according to credits of first season. New main cast member should be add to the bottom of the list. I think there is a discussion on MOS:TV Talk archives and/or WP:TV Talk archives. — YoungForever^(talk) 18:00, 11 August 2019 (UTC)

MOS:TVCAST is pretty clear. Regarding precedent, List of American Horror Story cast members is a prime example that cast lists are sorted in order of billing regardless of during which seasons one appears in that Connie Britton is atop of the cast table despite the fact that she was only a series regular during the first season. Regarding different credits at the end of episodes, I find that this is done by programs on cable networks (e.g. Veep, True Blood, etc.), but what I also find is the order of billing remains the same no matter who appears in how many episodes. I also believe it is unnecessary to specify in the lede that Peters, Mara, and Van Der Beek only appeared in the first season; Bernhard only started as a series regular during the second so it's only accurate to specify that as well, and that gets too muddly.

Other examples of articles keeping the billing in accordance with the guideline even after a top-billed cast member departs a show include: Charlie's Angels, 8 Simple Rules, NYPD Blue, and The Hogan Family. KyleJoan^talk 00:23, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

Season redirects

I've redirected Pose (season 1) and Pose (season 2) to here for now. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 23:26, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 20 June 2020

Please list Evan Peters, Kate Mara, and James van der Beek at the end of the cast list, not the beginning. They are most unequivocally NOT the stars of this show. The lgbtq people of color hold that honor. 98.16.52.205 (talk) 03:12, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: Main cast order is according to the original broadcasting credits starting from the pilot episode, per MOS:TVCAST. — YoungForever^(talk) 04:35, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

These characters don't apear in season 2. It would be more logical to list the characters in the order netflix lists them instead of following the order of the pilot.77.175.198.189 (talk) 15:11, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

Again, not how it works here. Please read up MOS:TVCAST. — YoungForever^(talk) 16:02, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 20 June 2020

Why the hell are two white actors/actress listed first that are only on for one season? Move Blanca and permanent cast to the top. Give some black and trans respect! And, I’m white non-transgender. You think I’m insulted, think about the communities the show is about! 72.185.61.154 (talk) 13:57, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

 Not done Because that's how they are credited starting from the pilot episode. Wikipedia contains guidelines and policies. You can't just arrange cast order however you like to. — YoungForever^(talk) 18:27, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 25 June 2020

Change

Main Evan Peters as Stan Bowes, Patty's yuppie husband who works in Trump Tower and later becomes Angel's lover. (season 1)[2] Kate Mara as Patty Bowes, Stan's wife and mother of their children. (season 1)[2] James Van Der Beek as Matt Bromley, Stan's kingpin boss. (season 1)[2] Mj Rodriguez as Blanca Rodriguez-Evangelista, a trans woman with HIV/AIDS and former member of the House of Abundance. She is the founder and mother of the House of Evangelista. Dominique Jackson as Elektra Wintour, mother of the former House of Abundance. After brief stints in the Houses of Evangelista and Ferocity, she forms the House of Wintour. Billy Porter as Pray Tell, emcee of the balls in New York, fashion designer, and mentor to members of the community, especially the members of House Evangelista. He is also in a relationship with Ricky. Indya Moore as Angel Evangelista, a trans woman sex worker who joins the House of Evangelista after leaving the House of Abundance. She has a relationship with Stan during the first season. Ryan Jamaal Swain as Damon Richards-Evangelista, a homeless, talented dancer who becomes the first member of the House of Evangelista. Charlayne Woodard as Helena St. Rogers, a modern dance teacher at the New School for Dance. Hailie Sahar as Lulu Ferocity, the founder of the House of Ferocity alongside Candy. Angelica Ross as Candy Johnson-Ferocity, the founder of the House of Ferocity alongside Lulu. Angel Bismark Curiel as Esteban "Lil Papi" Martinez-Evangelista, a member of the House of Evangelista. Dyllón Burnside as Ricky Wintour, Damon's boyfriend and a former member of the House of Evangelista who joins the House of Wintour. Sandra Bernhard as Judy Kubrak, a nurse who works with people with AIDS and member of ACT UP. (season 2; guest season 1)[3]

to

Main Mj Rodriguez as Blanca Rodriguez-Evangelista, a trans woman with HIV/AIDS and former member of the House of Abundance. She is the founder and mother of the House of Evangelista. Dominique Jackson as Elektra Wintour, mother of the former House of Abundance. After brief stints in the Houses of Evangelista and Ferocity, she forms the House of Wintour. Billy Porter as Pray Tell, emcee of the balls in New York, fashion designer, and mentor to members of the community, especially the members of House Evangelista. He is also in a relationship with Ricky. Indya Moore as Angel Evangelista, a trans woman sex worker who joins the House of Evangelista after leaving the House of Abundance. She has a relationship with Stan during the first season. Ryan Jamaal Swain as Damon Richards-Evangelista, a homeless, talented dancer who becomes the first member of the House of Evangelista. Charlayne Woodard as Helena St. Rogers, a modern dance teacher at the New School for Dance. Hailie Sahar as Lulu Ferocity, the founder of the House of Ferocity alongside Candy. Angelica Ross as Candy Johnson-Ferocity, the founder of the House of Ferocity alongside Lulu. Angel Bismark Curiel as Esteban "Lil Papi" Martinez-Evangelista, a member of the House of Evangelista. Dyllón Burnside as Ricky Wintour, Damon's boyfriend and a former member of the House of Evangelista who joins the House of Wintour. Evan Peters as Stan Bowes, Patty's yuppie husband who works in Trump Tower and later becomes Angel's lover. (season 1)[2] Kate Mara as Patty Bowes, Stan's wife and mother of their children. (season 1)[2] James Van Der Beek as Matt Bromley, Stan's kingpin boss. (season 1)[2] Sandra Bernhard as Judy Kubrak, a nurse who works with people with AIDS and member of ACT UP. (season 2; guest season 1)[3] 173.185.16.86 (talk) 16:13, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

 Not done See answers above. — YoungForever^(talk) 16:34, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 14 August 2020

Change the order that the cast is list to reflect the main cast. Currently, white and straight cast is listed before the main characters.

Change: "Evan Peters, Kate Mara, James Van Der Beek, Mj Rodriguez, Dominique Jackson, Billy Porter, Indya Moore, Ryan Jamaal Swain, Charlayne Woodard, Hailie Sahar, Angelica Ross, Angel Bismark Curiel, Dyllón Burnside, and Sandra Bernhard." to "Mj Rodriguez, Dominique Jackson, Billy Porter, Indya Moore, Evan Peters, Ryan Jamaal Swain, Charlayne Woodard, Hailie Sahar, Angelica Ross, Angel Bismark Curiel, Dyllón Burnside, Kate Mara, James Van Der Beek, and Sandra Bernhard."

Also change the box on the side to reflect the same.

See IMDB page for a more accurate and less racist, less transphobic listing of cast members for reference. Reyhanayas (talk) 00:31, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

 Not done Please see above. Per MOS:TVCAST, main cast order is according to the original broadcasting credits starting from the pilot episode, not how you want it to display. Wikipedia contains guidelines and policies to follow. It has nothing to do with race and gender at all. — YoungForever^(talk) 01:53, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 7 December 2020

Move Evan Peters and Kate Mara's names to below Ryan Jamaal Swain's, and move James Van Der Beek's name to below Sandra Bernhard's in the "starring" section to better reflect each actor's prominence in the series Ddyfado (talk) 20:49, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: Please see above. Your edit request is pretty much the same as the edit request above. — YoungForever^(talk) 21:24, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 10 May 2021

It is absurd that the supporting white cast members who barely showed up in the first season are in the “starring” category above the actual main cast. Change this please. 2603:7080:FE42:A500:6D9A:F915:4FAF:5609 (talk) 02:21, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 14:07, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 May 2021

On the right hand side bar, under the header "Production", move "Janet Mock" under the sub header "Executive Producer" from the sub header "Producer". Source: https://www.fxnetworks.com/shows/pose/cast-crew/janet-mock-producer-director-writer Seccasecca (talk) 05:07, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

 Done ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 11:16, 12 May 2021 (UTC)