Talk:Political correctness/Archive 12
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Congratulations Pt. 2 (left-wing affiliation attribution)
- This article does seem to be managed by those it criticizes. It's constantly mentioned Dinesh D'Souza, referred to as simply an "author" by the article itself, is right-wing and conservative. When a left-wing author, who is associated with a left-wing party, is quoted; his political view isn't to be mentioned because it's completely unrelated? They undo any such mention. My god. Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 23:48, 30 September 2015 (UTC)
- The reason D'Souza is identified as conservative and right-wing is twofold: First, his politics are highlighted in all of the sources that discuss his role in this topic. Second, maybe more importantly, he's primarily notable as a conservative political commentator (for conservative think-tanks like the American Enterprise Institute, the Heritage Foundation, the Hoover Institution, and so on.) In a situation like that, we have to follow what the sources say on the topic and highlight why what he says matters. The people you added 'left-wing' to, though, are primarily notable as academics; their politics aren't really the focus of the things written about them, nor is it really what makes their opinions significant. (This isn't to say that they don't have politics, but highlighting them absent a source focusing on them in this context is a WP:NPOV and WP:OR violation for the same reason eg. it would be wrong to quote Richard Alley as "left-wing climatologist Richard Alley" or the like.) We do use 'liberal' and 'left-wing' as identifiers in other parts of the article where they're properly-sourced as relevant. --Aquillion (talk) 01:39, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
- Very likewise Polly Toynbee and Will Hutton are both associated with the Labour Party. Toynbee even stood for Social Democratic Party as a candidate. These are the only two I added political affiliations to. Toynbee is even more political than D'Souza, Hutton only comparable. Richard Alley is not associated with the left wing nor the Labour Party. Isn't that just a straw man? Picking the most non-political person ever and then acting like I'm treating them as political. --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 03:06, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
- Mr. Magoo, SDP was about as centrist/liberal as you can get, it even merged with the Liberal party eventually, but I am fairly sure Toynbee was never a candidate. SDP was formed precisely because the Labour party had become too left-wing for some people. I think you would find it very hard to find sources in the UK that described either as 'left-wing'. Social democrat (not capitals), would probably be accurate for both.Pincrete (talk) 07:25, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
- On her article it says she strongly criticized the merging with the Liberal party, and because of that left SDP and rejoined Labour. Her article also states she's urging the Labour party to be even more left-wing, which means she's to the left from the Labour party. In addition she did gather 9351 votes in the 1983 election, standing for SDP. However she did not get elected, as she finished third. --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 09:44, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
- Mr. Magoo, SDP was about as centrist/liberal as you can get, it even merged with the Liberal party eventually, but I am fairly sure Toynbee was never a candidate. SDP was formed precisely because the Labour party had become too left-wing for some people. I think you would find it very hard to find sources in the UK that described either as 'left-wing'. Social democrat (not capitals), would probably be accurate for both.Pincrete (talk) 07:25, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
- Very likewise Polly Toynbee and Will Hutton are both associated with the Labour Party. Toynbee even stood for Social Democratic Party as a candidate. These are the only two I added political affiliations to. Toynbee is even more political than D'Souza, Hutton only comparable. Richard Alley is not associated with the left wing nor the Labour Party. Isn't that just a straw man? Picking the most non-political person ever and then acting like I'm treating them as political. --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 03:06, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
- The reason D'Souza is identified as conservative and right-wing is twofold: First, his politics are highlighted in all of the sources that discuss his role in this topic. Second, maybe more importantly, he's primarily notable as a conservative political commentator (for conservative think-tanks like the American Enterprise Institute, the Heritage Foundation, the Hoover Institution, and so on.) In a situation like that, we have to follow what the sources say on the topic and highlight why what he says matters. The people you added 'left-wing' to, though, are primarily notable as academics; their politics aren't really the focus of the things written about them, nor is it really what makes their opinions significant. (This isn't to say that they don't have politics, but highlighting them absent a source focusing on them in this context is a WP:NPOV and WP:OR violation for the same reason eg. it would be wrong to quote Richard Alley as "left-wing climatologist Richard Alley" or the like.) We do use 'liberal' and 'left-wing' as identifiers in other parts of the article where they're properly-sourced as relevant. --Aquillion (talk) 01:39, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
- This article does seem to be managed by those it criticizes. It's constantly mentioned Dinesh D'Souza, referred to as simply an "author" by the article itself, is right-wing and conservative. When a left-wing author, who is associated with a left-wing party, is quoted; his political view isn't to be mentioned because it's completely unrelated? They undo any such mention. My god. Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 23:48, 30 September 2015 (UTC)
- Mr. Magoo &, to the left of what? There are people in all the parties urging them to be more left, more right, more centre all the time. But anyway this is OR, and synth. Is Toynbee generally described as 'left-wing' by most RS? I doubt it, 'Left of centre', 'social democrat', 'liberal', (all without caps) perhaps. The paper she mainly writes for (Guardian) is broadly 'left of centre' but has no permanent political loyalty. Pincrete (talk) 14:58, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
- How in the world is that OR? I literally simply visited her Wikipedia page and all of that was there. Her article's not even that big. And Labour is "left from centre", as it's described centre-left. Then we take into account she's urging them to be more left, as stated in the very header of her article. Where does that leave her? Not even left of centre is enough. Her article also has the following description of her: Toynbee has been described as "the queen of leftist journalists." --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 21:12, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
- You can't use a Wikipedia page as a source. Even if you could, the issue isn't "she has been described as liberal in some reliable source"; the issue is "does that label matter for this topic?" For example, D'Souza is a Christian (as it says on his article, and as is covered by many reliable sources), but we don't describe him as a Christian here, because no sources have highlighted that as relevant to the topic. All sources that discuss D'Souza in relation to this topic, though, make it clear that his conservative politics are central to his involvement. You would need something similar for the other labels you want to add; we can't, ourselves, take an academic and decide that in this situation they are speaking "as a liberal" or "as a conservative", but we can rely on the numerous sources about D'Souza's position in this particular case. --Aquillion (talk) 21:25, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
- The Wikipedia page has already listed the sources, which means I'm referring to them. And she hasn't been described "liberal" (which is you watering down her stance), she's described "leftist" by a fairly neutral Wikipedia article. And why bring up religion? The article constantly refers to right-wing writers. It has 11 mentions of "right-wing"! That's just with the wing alone, many more referring to simply "right" (harder to count from unrelated rights). Toynbee is considerably more politically active "wing" than D'Souza. --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 22:09, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
- We still can't use a Wikipedia page as a source, regardless of how you feel about it. If you want, you can go to the other sources you're referring to and we can discuss those, but the key point is whether they're relevant to what we're quoting her for here -- we need sources on that specifically, which you haven't provided. You've asserted that it's relevant; you've argued that it's relevant based on your own personal readings of 'leftist' and 'liberal' and her position and the article as a whole, but all of that is WP:OR. What you need to provide are something similar to the numerous sources we have that put D'Souza's publication in the context of a larger conservative broadside against what he sees as a liberal bias in higher education. You are arguing, implicitly, that Toynbee et all are part of a left-wing response to that, but to imply that in the article, you need sources saying so specifically. It should not be hard to find them, if it is as obvious as you're saying. --Aquillion (talk) 22:19, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
- Wait then, I'll just paste them here. Also, in that case I request each instance of right-wing to be dropped from the article. It shall only be applied when you find an academic source that describes the person in question to be right-wing. Any news article won't do since they won't do for Polly Toynbee either, it seems. The subsection "Right-wing political correctness" shall also be retitled "Other instances of political correctness." --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 22:34, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
- We still can't use a Wikipedia page as a source, regardless of how you feel about it. If you want, you can go to the other sources you're referring to and we can discuss those, but the key point is whether they're relevant to what we're quoting her for here -- we need sources on that specifically, which you haven't provided. You've asserted that it's relevant; you've argued that it's relevant based on your own personal readings of 'leftist' and 'liberal' and her position and the article as a whole, but all of that is WP:OR. What you need to provide are something similar to the numerous sources we have that put D'Souza's publication in the context of a larger conservative broadside against what he sees as a liberal bias in higher education. You are arguing, implicitly, that Toynbee et all are part of a left-wing response to that, but to imply that in the article, you need sources saying so specifically. It should not be hard to find them, if it is as obvious as you're saying. --Aquillion (talk) 22:19, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
- The Wikipedia page has already listed the sources, which means I'm referring to them. And she hasn't been described "liberal" (which is you watering down her stance), she's described "leftist" by a fairly neutral Wikipedia article. And why bring up religion? The article constantly refers to right-wing writers. It has 11 mentions of "right-wing"! That's just with the wing alone, many more referring to simply "right" (harder to count from unrelated rights). Toynbee is considerably more politically active "wing" than D'Souza. --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 22:09, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
- You can't use a Wikipedia page as a source. Even if you could, the issue isn't "she has been described as liberal in some reliable source"; the issue is "does that label matter for this topic?" For example, D'Souza is a Christian (as it says on his article, and as is covered by many reliable sources), but we don't describe him as a Christian here, because no sources have highlighted that as relevant to the topic. All sources that discuss D'Souza in relation to this topic, though, make it clear that his conservative politics are central to his involvement. You would need something similar for the other labels you want to add; we can't, ourselves, take an academic and decide that in this situation they are speaking "as a liberal" or "as a conservative", but we can rely on the numerous sources about D'Souza's position in this particular case. --Aquillion (talk) 21:25, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
- How in the world is that OR? I literally simply visited her Wikipedia page and all of that was there. Her article's not even that big. And Labour is "left from centre", as it's described centre-left. Then we take into account she's urging them to be more left, as stated in the very header of her article. Where does that leave her? Not even left of centre is enough. Her article also has the following description of her: Toynbee has been described as "the queen of leftist journalists." --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 21:12, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
- Mr. Magoo &, to the left of what? There are people in all the parties urging them to be more left, more right, more centre all the time. But anyway this is OR, and synth. Is Toynbee generally described as 'left-wing' by most RS? I doubt it, 'Left of centre', 'social democrat', 'liberal', (all without caps) perhaps. The paper she mainly writes for (Guardian) is broadly 'left of centre' but has no permanent political loyalty. Pincrete (talk) 14:58, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
Instead of pasting these to the right, I'll paste them to the left here where there's more space. I can add more but here's a few:
http://inthesetimes.com/article/13634/defender_of_the_commonweal
Polly Toynbee, The Guardian’s voice of leftist dissent
Polly Toynbee, the queen of leftist journalists
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p0319h3b
queen of leftist journalists
Journalist posits Polly as strongly left-wing.
http://www.thecommentator.com/article/1480/polly_always_sees_red_toynbee_s_rewriting_of_history
Polly is again described as strongy leftist.
Polly is again described as strongly leftist.
--Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 22:47, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
Here's a quote straight from her:
http://www.totalpolitics.com/print/230562/toynbee-and-hutton-on-fairness-and-the-left.thtml
left-wing people are more intelligent, and just generally better people
She also seemingly describes The Guardian as left-wing press.
She also talks about Will Hutton, the other person I added the centre-left note about:
Will Hutton is a perfect example of just the kind of intelligent, independent-minded left-wing commentator that costs Labour votes according to Toynbee.
--Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 22:53, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
- You're missing the point. The question isn't whether people have described her as leftist; the question is whether people have described her as leftist in this context. "Someone called her leftist once, therefore we must slap that as an identifier in front of everything she says" is inappropriate. You need sources specifically stating that her views on this subject are part of that view, in the same way that eg. you would need sources relating them to her race, religion, or gender before you could add that as a disclaimer. Meanwhile, for the 'conservative' identifiers you're talking about, the sources are already in the article. See eg. Wilson, John. 1995. The Myth of Political Correctness: The Conservative Attack on High Education. Durham, North Carolina: Duke University Press (especially the "Conservative Correctness", since you asked for a cite for the 'right-wing political correctness' section). Or, for D'Souza's role and the importance his conservative politics played in it, see D. Charles Whitney and Ellen Wartella (1992). "Media Coverage of the "Political Correctness" Debate". These are respectable academic sources by historians and scholars who have carefully analyzed the subject of political correctness as a term, traced its history, and go into depth on the politics involved; whereas most of the sources you listed above are links to blogs, tabloids, and opinion pieces, none of them touching on this topic, which you are using to try and argue via WP:SYNTH that Toynbee's politics are relevant here. I'm not denying that people have described Toynbee as left-wing; my point, as I've said several times, is that in order to use that as a qualifier to her quotes here, you need a source relating it to that quote specifically. You seem to believe that if someone is identified as left-wing anywhere, that this means we must use that as a disclaimer to anything they say everywhere; but this is not true. Most people do not get such identifiers. D'Souza gets one in this case solely because there is overwhelming coverage that his role in this subject was part of a larger conservative push against what they saw as left-wing bias in academia. If you want to argue that Toynbee et all are part of some liberal pushback, that's fine, but you need sources for that specifically -- you cannot simply post a bunch of opinion pieces and blogs arguing that she's left-wing in general, and take it as a given that anything anyone who is left-wing does or says is defined by that label. --Aquillion (talk) 23:02, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
- If you go through the sources, they describe her left-wing in this particular context as well. I think you simply didn't bother going through the links. I'll state again: the article has 11 mentions of right-wing without need of sources or context. You now provided one which talks about "conservative correctness." That's not the same thing, is it. Especially right after your speech about context. --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 23:06, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
- I don't see any academic sources in your list describing her position on this subject as left-wing. I see one quote, in an opinion piece, that mentions the term at all, in passing, and without reference to her views on its history. I don't see any discussing the essay she's quoted for here (whereas we have numerous academic sources discussing D'Souza's positions as they relate directly to Illiberal Education and his efforts to push this term in particular.) Virtually all of the sources you provided are either opinion-pieces, blogs, tabloids, or all three; none of them are usable for statements of fact (such has someone's political position.) I provided an academic source that goes into extensive depth, which you dismissed based on (I guess?) its section heading. Here are some more if you want, covering various aspects you've objected to: Manufacturing the Attack on Liberalized Higher Education, Ellen Messer-Davidow. Debra L. Schultz, To Reclaim a Legacy of Diversity: Analyzing the 'Political Correctness' Debates in Higher Education. Paul Lauter, 'Political Correctness' and the Attack on American Colleges". James Axtell, The Pleasures of Academe: A Celebration & Defense of Higher Education. Valerie L. Scatamburlo, Soldiers of Misfortune: The New Right's Culture War and the Politics of Political Correctness. These are all high-quality sources by respectable experts in the field going into depth on this subject in particular; your sources are blogs, tabloids, and opinion-pieces by talking heads focusing on unrelated subjects. Most of the sources you provided fail the standard that WP:RS places on making statements of fact about a living person, and none of them focus on this subject the way the ones I've listed do. --Aquillion (talk) 23:18, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
- Here is a book which talks about both Polly Toynbee and Will Hutton as leftists on the matter of political correctness: https://books.google.com/books?id=H5i7BAAAQBAJ&pg=PT32
- The book was published by Imprint Academic: http://www.imprint.co.uk/, "A peer-reviewed journal which examines issues in plain English." --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 23:21, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
- You're confused, I think? It was published in Andrews UK Limited, at least according to Google Books. That's a self-publishing service which offers print-on-demand. Imprint Academic is likewise a self-publishing service; it specializes in peer-reviewed journals (that is to say, it publishes some, in addition to stuff like the thing you linked), but that doesn't mean that everything published through them was published in a peer-reviewed journal. Either way, anyone can publish anything they please through either service; the book you're linking wasn't peer-reviewed or even approved by a conventional publisher. Things published via self-publishing services don't pass WP:RS and can't be cited here. --Aquillion (talk) 23:27, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
- It was first published through Imprint Academic. Apparently there are two publishers. And like I wrote, you require me to find some sort of an academic book only published by the most highest authority clearly stating that yes, Polly Toynbee is left-wing in the particular context of political correctness. Near a dozen newspapers and articles and a book as close to full academic as you can get aren't enough. Meanwhile you throw random sources out which don't even mention the words right-wing. And that's just fine in your view. Everything's as it should be. --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 23:35, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
- A self-published source and a bunch of WP:NEWSBLOGs and opinion pieces (most of which make no mention of political correctness) isn't enough, no! The sources I cited are all high-quality, all go into depth on the subject, and several of them do mention 'right-wing'. (Scatamburlo even has 'The New Right' in the title, if you don't want to read the papers themselves!) --Aquillion (talk) 23:40, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
- Does he attribute it to D'Souza? Is there such a quote to be had? I posted some new sources. --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 23:50, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
- A self-published source and a bunch of WP:NEWSBLOGs and opinion pieces (most of which make no mention of political correctness) isn't enough, no! The sources I cited are all high-quality, all go into depth on the subject, and several of them do mention 'right-wing'. (Scatamburlo even has 'The New Right' in the title, if you don't want to read the papers themselves!) --Aquillion (talk) 23:40, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
- It was first published through Imprint Academic. Apparently there are two publishers. And like I wrote, you require me to find some sort of an academic book only published by the most highest authority clearly stating that yes, Polly Toynbee is left-wing in the particular context of political correctness. Near a dozen newspapers and articles and a book as close to full academic as you can get aren't enough. Meanwhile you throw random sources out which don't even mention the words right-wing. And that's just fine in your view. Everything's as it should be. --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 23:35, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
- You're confused, I think? It was published in Andrews UK Limited, at least according to Google Books. That's a self-publishing service which offers print-on-demand. Imprint Academic is likewise a self-publishing service; it specializes in peer-reviewed journals (that is to say, it publishes some, in addition to stuff like the thing you linked), but that doesn't mean that everything published through them was published in a peer-reviewed journal. Either way, anyone can publish anything they please through either service; the book you're linking wasn't peer-reviewed or even approved by a conventional publisher. Things published via self-publishing services don't pass WP:RS and can't be cited here. --Aquillion (talk) 23:27, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
- I don't see any academic sources in your list describing her position on this subject as left-wing. I see one quote, in an opinion piece, that mentions the term at all, in passing, and without reference to her views on its history. I don't see any discussing the essay she's quoted for here (whereas we have numerous academic sources discussing D'Souza's positions as they relate directly to Illiberal Education and his efforts to push this term in particular.) Virtually all of the sources you provided are either opinion-pieces, blogs, tabloids, or all three; none of them are usable for statements of fact (such has someone's political position.) I provided an academic source that goes into extensive depth, which you dismissed based on (I guess?) its section heading. Here are some more if you want, covering various aspects you've objected to: Manufacturing the Attack on Liberalized Higher Education, Ellen Messer-Davidow. Debra L. Schultz, To Reclaim a Legacy of Diversity: Analyzing the 'Political Correctness' Debates in Higher Education. Paul Lauter, 'Political Correctness' and the Attack on American Colleges". James Axtell, The Pleasures of Academe: A Celebration & Defense of Higher Education. Valerie L. Scatamburlo, Soldiers of Misfortune: The New Right's Culture War and the Politics of Political Correctness. These are all high-quality sources by respectable experts in the field going into depth on this subject in particular; your sources are blogs, tabloids, and opinion-pieces by talking heads focusing on unrelated subjects. Most of the sources you provided fail the standard that WP:RS places on making statements of fact about a living person, and none of them focus on this subject the way the ones I've listed do. --Aquillion (talk) 23:18, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
- If you go through the sources, they describe her left-wing in this particular context as well. I think you simply didn't bother going through the links. I'll state again: the article has 11 mentions of right-wing without need of sources or context. You now provided one which talks about "conservative correctness." That's not the same thing, is it. Especially right after your speech about context. --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 23:06, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
Here are some more:
https://books.google.com/books?id=-0jqaa-73mgC&pg=PA161
"Open University Press"
left-wing Guardian newspaper columnist Polly Toynbee
https://books.google.com/books?id=e8WoAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA170
British liberal-left journalist Polly Toynbee
https://books.google.com/books?id=bx9h0XuYSlUC&pg=PA119
prominent left-wing journalist Polly Toynbee
https://books.google.com/books?id=0MIoXxnwmAUC
left-wing social-policy commentator Polly Toynbee
--Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 23:47, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
Some less academical ones:
https://books.google.com/books?id=8-AKAQAAMAAJ
The above one is a lot less academic but goes into great detail about Polly and her, quote: "leftist" political correctness.
https://books.google.com/books?id=q0gKAQAAMAAJ
Polly Toynbee, a left-wing British journalist for the Guardian
https://books.google.com/books?id=-SpLAAAAQBAJ&pg=PA107
Toynbee, in particular, has made her mark as a commentator; her op-ed pieces in the Guardian, penetrating, provocative and polemical, are always worth reading. She is the standard-bearer for a particular kind of leftwing politics: aggressively feminist, militantly atheist, conspicuously compassionate towards favoured victim groups, she gives voice to an important constituency within the broader left.
--Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 00:09, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
I think all of these books and sources have established that she's commonly referred to as a left-wing journalist. Among were a few attributing the same to Will Hutton. --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 00:25, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
- Apart from Aquillon's point about relevance, (why not describe her as conspicuously compassionate?) many of your quotes say 'leftist' which means 'left-leaning', and the last one says 'within the broader left', ie 'left of centre'. Pincrete (talk) 06:57, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
- Many of them also describe her left-wing. And according to dictionary definitions, leftist either means a member of the left i.e. a left-winger or leaning like you say; which then coupled with the many that call her left-wing and the fact that she stood in the elections for a left-wing party would mean she's most likely being referred to as the former as in left-wing by those you pointed out only talking about leftist. Also, the last one called her a standard-bearer for an aggressively social-values version of "leftwing" (note the leftwing that comes before your broader left), which is the one most often blamed of and related to political correctness. --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 09:36, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
- Apart from Aquillon's point about relevance, (why not describe her as conspicuously compassionate?) many of your quotes say 'leftist' which means 'left-leaning', and the last one says 'within the broader left', ie 'left of centre'. Pincrete (talk) 06:57, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
- Well the whole world can be divided into left or right, but it isn't very subtle or precise. No one in the UK would define the SDP as 'left-wing', it was formed and supported by people who, yes believed in 'social justice policies' but who strongly opposed the Labour party at that time for being unrealistically left-wing. It was almost the epitome of slightly-left-of-centre. But why is her political affiliation relevant to her remarks, which are mainly about people who want to use derogatory language such as 'Paki(Pakistani), spastic, or queer (faggot) '. Pincrete (talk) 16:33, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
- But she was later disillusioned with SDP as they joined with the Liberal Party, and she joined with Labour once again. And she has apparently changed over time, as now she's urging Labour to be more left. Left has two meanings these days, both economical and social. She most likely represents both. Her contextual view is of the social left. Her description of criticism of political correctness also reeks of a straw man, which picks the heaviest insults people get punished for instead of the slightest. Few contest punishments for the heaviest insults, yet she describes absolutely everyone using the term PC to be these kind. Her motivation is of course to elevate even the slightest perceived affronts to be heavily punishable. One such recent case comes to mind, when Alexander Carter-Silk messaged a woman on LinkedIn that her profile photo is stunning. Whether that is sexism can be argued about. To Polly Toynbee, it most likely can't be argued about. Her motivation is most likely to force her will that cases like this can't be argued about. --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 17:04, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
- I very much doubt if she is NOW urging Labour to be more left-wing, under Blair, Brown, Milliband perhaps, especially over 'social-welfare' issues (not economic, she has never to my knowledge advocated state-ownership or increased union powers, or leaving EU and NATO, all of which are defining characteristics of 'the left' in UK). However this does not answer the question why is it relevant ? Hers is a very caustic characterisation of why people object to 'PC language', sure. That isn't a particularly right-left issue. I'm ignoring your speculations about what PT possibly thinks about hypothetical situations. Pincrete (talk) 19:51, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
- I just explained. You didn't bother reading but the first two sentences? --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 21:21, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
- What did you explain? Why it is relevant? Most of what I see is speculation about what she probably believes/what she would probably think or do. Pincrete (talk) 22:13, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
- I explained why it's a left-right issue. Obviously you only read the first two and last two sentences. Left has two meanings these days, both economical and social. She does seem to represent both. Many of her opponents cry foul of her economical in addition to social leftism in the above sources. But her contextual view is of the social left. Also, if left and right are only economical, why does the article refer to the right-wing with and without the dash 13 times, and to the "right" 4 times? If it means fiscally conservative, what does that have to do with political correctness? --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 22:29, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
- btw. This is the 'left-wing party' that Toynbee was a candidate for, its core policies are described as having been Centrism and Social liberalism. At the same time there was a much more strongly 'left' Labour party. But none of this is anyway relevant to her views on PC-ness. Pincrete (talk) 22:23, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
- Firstly, she has possibly changed her stance like I've written many times. She's now encouraging Labour to be even more left. Secondly, we don't know why she changed to SDP at the time. Maybe it's because SDP had a stronger push of social liberalism. She changed with her husband, so that might be it. Or maybe it's because she might've not been as economically left as today. And most of all, the centrist description of SDP might be from their final years, just before the actual merger, when they ceased to exist. Perhaps before that they were centre-left. But all in all, she stands very much deep in the left now. --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 22:29, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
- And why would you push this into another subsection? I didn't make the "Left Wingers" section as you edited it to look like (I wouldn't make a section with such name in any case), I responded to the Congratulations subsection. That's where it all began. The opening is only a few lines long. --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 23:35, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
- What did you explain? Why it is relevant? Most of what I see is speculation about what she probably believes/what she would probably think or do. Pincrete (talk) 22:13, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
- I just explained. You didn't bother reading but the first two sentences? --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 21:21, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
- I very much doubt if she is NOW urging Labour to be more left-wing, under Blair, Brown, Milliband perhaps, especially over 'social-welfare' issues (not economic, she has never to my knowledge advocated state-ownership or increased union powers, or leaving EU and NATO, all of which are defining characteristics of 'the left' in UK). However this does not answer the question why is it relevant ? Hers is a very caustic characterisation of why people object to 'PC language', sure. That isn't a particularly right-left issue. I'm ignoring your speculations about what PT possibly thinks about hypothetical situations. Pincrete (talk) 19:51, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
- But she was later disillusioned with SDP as they joined with the Liberal Party, and she joined with Labour once again. And she has apparently changed over time, as now she's urging Labour to be more left. Left has two meanings these days, both economical and social. She most likely represents both. Her contextual view is of the social left. Her description of criticism of political correctness also reeks of a straw man, which picks the heaviest insults people get punished for instead of the slightest. Few contest punishments for the heaviest insults, yet she describes absolutely everyone using the term PC to be these kind. Her motivation is of course to elevate even the slightest perceived affronts to be heavily punishable. One such recent case comes to mind, when Alexander Carter-Silk messaged a woman on LinkedIn that her profile photo is stunning. Whether that is sexism can be argued about. To Polly Toynbee, it most likely can't be argued about. Her motivation is most likely to force her will that cases like this can't be argued about. --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 17:04, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
- Well the whole world can be divided into left or right, but it isn't very subtle or precise. No one in the UK would define the SDP as 'left-wing', it was formed and supported by people who, yes believed in 'social justice policies' but who strongly opposed the Labour party at that time for being unrealistically left-wing. It was almost the epitome of slightly-left-of-centre. But why is her political affiliation relevant to her remarks, which are mainly about people who want to use derogatory language such as 'Paki(Pakistani), spastic, or queer (faggot) '. Pincrete (talk) 16:33, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
- I looked into the other sections and I noticed that quite many accused the article of being written by political correctness pushers and being biased. Who do I see responding to all of them? You and Aquillion. You vaguely, casually shoot down all of their points, which seem valid enough. Even then most likely most wishes of change are shot down at the editing section, like I once were multiple times. You are practicing systematic control of the article to fit your lopsided view. This article has little to no views of those editors who would accuse someone of political correctness, but it's mostly been written by those who deny political correctness exists and who think anyone using it is an extreme right-winger or alike (you seemed to hold the opinion that anyone using the term automatically also uses strong racial epithets). Even adding a note that a quote comes from a notably left-wing politically correct person — with the article already FULL of similar remarks (17 mentions of the right) for anyone vaguely right-wing — takes an eternity to fight through. Have you ever considered what kind of an editor a centrist would be on a hotly politically contested article? He would note party affiliations for all. --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 23:53, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
- I changed the sub-section title, since the subject clearly ISN'T 'congratulations, if you want to change it to something else, please do so.
- You change it to a straw man to make me look bad. And my line starts out of nowhere like that of a madman's. You're such a handful. But, to appease concensus, I shall let it be but with a new title that really explains what the section is about. --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 01:09, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
- MIGHT MIGHT MIGHT MIGHT MIGHT. Perhaps PT's cat told her to join the SDP, perhaps SDP was secretly an anarcho-syndicalist organisation waiting to show its true face. I'm sorry this speculation is a waste of both our times. As far as I can see the only party affiliation noted in the article is 'Australian Labor leader Mark Latham'. D'Souza is described as 'conservative author Dinesh D'Souza' and elsewhere as a 'right-wing libertarian'. In Michel Foucault it is implied that he is Marxist, since his Marxism is relevant to what he is saying, but I could see no one else whose politics were characterised.
- Her article is full of attributions of her party support to Labour. She's active all around, calling for more political correctness and calling the Labour to be more left. SDP can be disregarded. --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 01:09, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
- Re: Even adding a note that a quote comes from a notably left-wing politically correct person … … who is the notably left-wing politically correct person, and noted by whom as being 'politically correct'?
- Her article itself has a quotation which calls her "the high priestess of our paranoid, mollycoddled, risk-averse, airbagged, booster-seated culture of political correctness." --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 01:09, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
- Re: This article has little to no views of those editors who would accuse someone of political correctness, but it's mostly been written by those who deny political correctness exists … firstly WP isn't a blog to put the views of those editors who would accuse someone of political correctness …
- Secondly, in the modern usage, the term is almost always derogatory, it is almost always being used by 'critics'. Almost no organisation or individual, ever says 'I/we are doing this to be more politically correct',(except humourously) the term is almost always used to 'belittle' the language or policy being introduced. So yes, PC does NOT exist except in the perception of critics, as a blanket term to describe various tendencies of which they disapprove. The tendencies may be real (efforts to make language or policies less sexist, racist etc. etc.), some of those tendencies and policies may be TERRIBLE ideas, or badly implemented. Others may be ideas that most civilised humans would welcome (like racial epithets being no longer acceptable), but either way, the idea that there is a single 'mindset' behind all these tendencies that is called 'political correctness', that idea exists almost SOLELY in the minds of critics. Pincrete (talk) 18:07, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
- According to you. Again, the talk page has had plenty of opinions against that. You shoot them all down, utilizing one or two sources at best. If they have any sources of their own, you question of the source's validity on whatever vulnerability you can find. Your own sources, even though always shoddy at best, are never to be questioned. And I never brought up any single mindset so I don't understand where you're going with that. --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 01:09, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
- I changed the sub-section title, since the subject clearly ISN'T 'congratulations, if you want to change it to something else, please do so.
Pincrete's Bradley correct. As for Steve Moxon (whistleblower), there's no chance we'd use him as a reliable source except in his article for his own opinions. Doug Weller (talk) 18:18, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
- Doug Weller, sorry I don't understand your comment.Pincrete (talk) 19:07, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
- User:Pincrete, I'm referring to the author of the Imprint Academic book[1] mentioned above. See also[2] Doug Weller (talk) 20:35, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
- I've allowed myself to get side-tracked about this. Aquillon's point seems the pertinent one, are Toynbee and Hutton's political views widely seen as relevant to their views on PC? The second point is simply that we AREN"T in general identifying individual's political allegiances in the article. No one would deny that both Toynbee and Hutton are 'on the left' (mainly on social rather than economic issues in the case of Toynbee), but why would we include it, rather than their professions, or any of the other characteristics for which they are known. 'Left-winger' is crude and uninformative rather than wrong. Pincrete (talk) 08:36, 4 October 2015 (UTC)
- It seems you have taken the matter into your own hands without concensus, so I properly undid your edit until we find concensus. I also added a source to the page itself this time to appease you. Firstly, it's not "left-winger" but left-wing. Secondly, I have to yet again point out the article has 13 mentions of right-wing with and without dash and 4 mentions of the right. D'Souza himself is called "right-wing" in the header of the article. You seem to have little interest in these facts. You seem to ignore them every time I mention them. I have also provided an academic source (not the Imprint one) of Polly being called a left-wing columnist. Very many near-academic sources also describe her as left-wing. Two, while talking about Polly, also happened to attribute the very same to Mr. Hutton. In light of these facts, how can you still disagree? On a personal note, I'm interested: why are you so vehemontly interested in removing Polly Toynbee's political affiliation in a hotly-contested political article? I hope to continue our discussion amiably. --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 01:09, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
- Going by the people who have weighed in on this specific topic, I do sort of see a consensus against your changes -- in fact, you seem to be the only one advocating them. In any case, since you're making a claim about a living person, and since you're suggesting a change to an article, the burden is on you to get consensus to include it. Regarding your specific points, though: We have many sources in the article that D'Souza's politics are relevant to this specific topic, and specifically to the publications we're discussing. There's no similarly high-quality sources stating that Toynbee and Hutton's political views are relevant here. The issue isn't whether you can prove people have said they're left-wing or the like; the issue is that it violates WP:NPOV to always qualify someone's statements with their politics, religion, or some other identifier. You need some specific reason to do so, and your sources and arguments here haven't provided that. --Aquillion (talk) 02:31, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
- Whom? Aquillion gave up after I posted the sources. There's only you, who ignores the sources. I have yet to see any sources that call D'Souza right-wing especially. I asked for one, didn't get it. The IP who began Congratulations is obviously on my side, like many others on the talk page making similar sections. And I provided the academic source — which especially states left-wing — which you are again ignoring. The reason for noting is that the article has, like I've mentioned what four times now: 13 mentions of right-wing with and without the dash and 4 mentions of the right. This is a political article. Political affiliations are noted. --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 02:40, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
- Now I added a Stanford University source for Will Hutton. --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 02:45, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
- I added two more for Will Hutton, I believe this settles it. --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 03:07, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
- I now notice Aquillion has returned after long being gone after the sources were posted. I looked into the history of Pincrete and Aquillion and found out they know each other: https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Discrimination#Propose_widening_the_topic_area_of_.22Racism_in_....22_articles_through_moves_to_.22Racism_and_prejudice_in_....22_or_.22Discrimination_and_racism_in.22_titles
- It's not a coincidence they find each other on the same side, again. They have a history of editing articles like this from the same viewpoint. --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 03:43, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
- Here is a book where Will Hutton describes himself as left-wing(!): https://books.google.com/books?id=01fXBAAAQBAJ&pg=PT80 --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 04:05, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
- I found a Maastricht University assistant professor and academic affairs vice-dean describing Polly Toynbee as left-wing, added to sources. --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 04:25, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
- Teun J. Dekker is currently Assistant Professor of Political Philosophy and Vice-Dean of Academic Affairs at University College Maastricht – Maastricht University. He has held visiting research positions at Amherst College and Yale University. He has had articles published in Inquiry, Ethics and Economics, The Journal of Value Inquiry, The Canadian Philosophical Review, Imprints, and Politics, Philosophy and Economics.
- IF Aquillion and I have ever edited the same page before (other than this), I am unaware of it (your link leads nowhere). HOWEVER the implication of your remark is DEEPLY OFFENSIVE, (shouting intended). Pincrete (talk) 08:40, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
- It was archived just now: https://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?diff=684196961 --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 09:20, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
- Mr. Magoo, Yes, I and Aquillion, once took a similar position on a very vaguely phrased proposal, (the only other editor, to comment also thought the proposal unclear ... to save you looking, I believe I may have come across his/her name elsewhere as well).
- It was archived just now: https://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?diff=684196961 --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 09:20, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
- IF Aquillion and I have ever edited the same page before (other than this), I am unaware of it (your link leads nowhere). HOWEVER the implication of your remark is DEEPLY OFFENSIVE, (shouting intended). Pincrete (talk) 08:40, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
- Going by the people who have weighed in on this specific topic, I do sort of see a consensus against your changes -- in fact, you seem to be the only one advocating them. In any case, since you're making a claim about a living person, and since you're suggesting a change to an article, the burden is on you to get consensus to include it. Regarding your specific points, though: We have many sources in the article that D'Souza's politics are relevant to this specific topic, and specifically to the publications we're discussing. There's no similarly high-quality sources stating that Toynbee and Hutton's political views are relevant here. The issue isn't whether you can prove people have said they're left-wing or the like; the issue is that it violates WP:NPOV to always qualify someone's statements with their politics, religion, or some other identifier. You need some specific reason to do so, and your sources and arguments here haven't provided that. --Aquillion (talk) 02:31, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
- It seems you have taken the matter into your own hands without concensus, so I properly undid your edit until we find concensus. I also added a source to the page itself this time to appease you. Firstly, it's not "left-winger" but left-wing. Secondly, I have to yet again point out the article has 13 mentions of right-wing with and without dash and 4 mentions of the right. D'Souza himself is called "right-wing" in the header of the article. You seem to have little interest in these facts. You seem to ignore them every time I mention them. I have also provided an academic source (not the Imprint one) of Polly being called a left-wing columnist. Very many near-academic sources also describe her as left-wing. Two, while talking about Polly, also happened to attribute the very same to Mr. Hutton. In light of these facts, how can you still disagree? On a personal note, I'm interested: why are you so vehemontly interested in removing Polly Toynbee's political affiliation in a hotly-contested political article? I hope to continue our discussion amiably. --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 01:09, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
- I've allowed myself to get side-tracked about this. Aquillon's point seems the pertinent one, are Toynbee and Hutton's political views widely seen as relevant to their views on PC? The second point is simply that we AREN"T in general identifying individual's political allegiances in the article. No one would deny that both Toynbee and Hutton are 'on the left' (mainly on social rather than economic issues in the case of Toynbee), but why would we include it, rather than their professions, or any of the other characteristics for which they are known. 'Left-winger' is crude and uninformative rather than wrong. Pincrete (talk) 08:36, 4 October 2015 (UTC)
- User:Pincrete, I'm referring to the author of the Imprint Academic book[1] mentioned above. See also[2] Doug Weller (talk) 20:35, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
- FYI, DougWeller once threatened to block me and we have had more cordial interactions as well. Fyddlestix and I have occasionally 'met' I think (though I can't remember where). This is proof of editors 'acting in consort' is it? Because such accusations are taken VERY seriously on WP, and are regarded as bad faith unless the person has pretty strong proof. Pincrete (talk) 15:47, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
You could probably find 1000 sources which mention PT and WH as some variation of 'left-of-centre', very few people would dispute that, but L-o-C isn't quite the same as left-winger and isn't very exact. Anyway, what is the relevance? Many/most sources would describe her as feminist, many as atheist, what is the relevance to this topic of choosing one of these? It simply isn't true as you claim that rightwingers are identified in the article, the one partial exception is d'Souza described as 'right-wing libertarian' ie his libertarianism is of the right-wing variety. More left-wingers are identified than r-wingers, but ONLY where it is immediately relevant to who they are/what they are saying. John McCain is a lifelong member of the more right-wing US party, shall I add 'right-winger' to every mention of him or would this simply be crude and silly? Pincrete (talk) 08:01, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
- I have provided 5 academical (and one from the person itself) sources which specifically state left-wing and not "left of center". The relevance is once again that there are already 13 mentions of right-wing with and without dash and 4 mentions of the right; and this is a hotly-contested political article and political affiliations are to be mentioned. I have also yet to see a source stating that D'Souza is specifically right-wing and not something else, which I have already asked two times. At least three other people are called righters. --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 09:16, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
- Looking at the article, this argument doesn't make any sense to me at all. Yes, the term "right wing" appears in the article a number of times - but it's not applied to specific people to qualify their opinion (with the one exception of D'sousa) in the same way that you're arguing that we should tag everyone on the left as "left-wing." I do not support the changes that you are advocating. Fyddlestix (talk) 14:08, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
- What you seem to be missing here is that the sources make it very clearly that "political correctness" is a term that is primarily used by people on the right - we can hardly write this article without using the term "right wing," because all of the sources make it abundantly clear that people on the right are the ones who have seized on the term and given it its currency. The article is written to reflect what reliable sources say about the subject - as any good wikipedia article should be. Not saying the article's perfect - but your attempt to bring "balance" to the article does not appear to have the same kind of foundation in reliable sources, and your attempt to use sources that describe these people as "left wing" in other contexts to qualify their opinions appears to me to be very misguided. Fyddlestix (talk) 14:16, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
- Like I wrote, being on the right is applied to other people as well. Foremost, like you wrote, the right is mentioned so constantly and anyone using the term is alluded to being on the right. And Ann Coulter, Bill O'Reilly and Patrick Bunahan are stated to be righters - a source being used is a journalist on a website called "mach2". That's really trustworthy. Secondly, could you provide a source PROVING it's only used by the right? For I can find any any number of sources of people on the left using the term to match any number of sources you find of people claiming it's only used by the right. Another section above is also of this matter. FriendlyFred tried to argue that it's not just being used by the right. Pincrete and Aquillion ganged up on him without using any sources. Their method of attack was that Fred didn't have enough sources. Well, I do. Can you refute these points? Thirdly, you three are the gang controlling this article. If we count in you as well, pretty much no one edits this article but you three. You gang up on any lone editors. But the creator of the Congratulations convo supports my view, and so does the creator of the "Extremely biased/one-sided" section who especially talks of how biased the 90s section — which the whole process is about — is. Well, that should be fixed now, after mentions of the political affiliations of the JOURNALISTS being quoted as if their word was the word of god. If we go back on the talk page history, we'll find even more supporting my view. Who's shooting them down? Pincrete and Aquillion. Without sources, just mostly attacking the viewpoints they come across as being without sources. Like I wrote, well, I've got 6 unrefuted sources. I have yet to see any calling D'Souza right-wing, too. --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 15:03, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
- I also find it extremely odd that both Aquillion and Pincrete became active on the article on May 20 2015 and May 24 2015 respectively. No edits from before. I think they obviously work in unison and organized elsewhere to gang up on this article. Like I pointed out earlier, they have had contact from at least March. They didn't meet here. They also seem to appear in unison to happenings (June 11 being notable), which could be explained with them both watchlisting the page; but it could be by one contacting the other. --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 15:24, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
- Mr. Magoo, you had the good sense to remove the above post once for which I thanked you, please do so again. This article is on my watchlist as it is on other editors'. Unless you have some proofs for your assertion above, your 'suspicions' constitute an unfounded and very offensive personal attack.
- We can all argue till we are blue in the face about WHO uses the term PC, but all the evidence is that the term (since about 1990), has almost entirely been used by critics of certain policies, most, of those critics are socially or politically conservative. When I first became involved with this article, I was surprised to find that to be true. It does not matter tuppence whether I, you, Fred, Aquillion or anyone thinks that is true. WP is not a blog.
- I've removed the description of Coulter and Bill O'Reilly as unnec. 'Bunahan' is described as 'conservative' as is 'd'Souza', not as 'right-wing', the equiv. term for Toynbee/Hutton would be 'liberal' or 'social democrat'. If descriptions of people are wrong or unnec or unsourced, the answer is to remedy them not 'pepper' the whole article with irrelevant characterisations in order to create a spurious neutrality.Pincrete (talk) 16:26, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
- I don't think we yet found concensus for removing political affiliations, which is an entirely different subject altogether. Maybe a new section for that. I think it's most necessary to explain affiliations on a hotly-debated political article and I'll explain why. Also, Buchanan was prefaced with right-wing earlier in the segment, but yes, it's not in the same sentence. I also noticed you didn't remove the right-wing for D'Souza, even though I have asked what four times for a source stating that he is exactly that. But wait a bit, I'll explain the earlier. Also, do you have a source for stating that most of the critics are conservative? --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 16:38, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
- I don't have a source for saying that 'mostly the term PC is critical, mostly used by social or political conservatives' (others may have who know the academic studies better). By analogy I wouldn't have a source for the assertion that 'Yankee Imperialists' is usually a critical term, or, more extremely, that students in the '70s who described Nixon as 'fascist' or Kissinger as 'a Nazi' were being critical. In all cases it is obvious that the usage is critical. For every instance that the term PC is used positively, there are twenty where the term is used to discredit or denigrate the policy or practice being discussed. Since the policies, language or practices being so discredited are usually seen as being liberal or left-wing, the criticisms usually come from those antagonistic to liberal or left-wing policies or ways of thinking. These are not necessarily politically right-wing, but they are more frequently 'conservative' in the broader social sense.
- I don't think we yet found concensus for removing political affiliations, which is an entirely different subject altogether. Maybe a new section for that. I think it's most necessary to explain affiliations on a hotly-debated political article and I'll explain why. Also, Buchanan was prefaced with right-wing earlier in the segment, but yes, it's not in the same sentence. I also noticed you didn't remove the right-wing for D'Souza, even though I have asked what four times for a source stating that he is exactly that. But wait a bit, I'll explain the earlier. Also, do you have a source for stating that most of the critics are conservative? --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 16:38, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
- I've removed the description of Coulter and Bill O'Reilly as unnec. 'Bunahan' is described as 'conservative' as is 'd'Souza', not as 'right-wing', the equiv. term for Toynbee/Hutton would be 'liberal' or 'social democrat'. If descriptions of people are wrong or unnec or unsourced, the answer is to remedy them not 'pepper' the whole article with irrelevant characterisations in order to create a spurious neutrality.Pincrete (talk) 16:26, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
- If PC isn't ordinarily a critical term, usually opposing change? What is it? I'm partly responsible for the opening (definition) sentence of the article, you say above that the article has been 'mostly been written by those who deny political correctness exists'. Well I deny it exists EXCEPT as a blanket 'term used to criticize language, actions, or policies seen as being excessively calculated not to offend or disadvantage any particular group of people in society'. If you say PC DOES exist other than as an ordinarily critical (or ironic) term, perhaps you could tell us what it is? You said previously it isn't a 'mindset' then what is it ? Pincrete (talk) 22:01, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
Right-wing libertarians?
Although this is related to the previous discussion, I thought it better to ask this question here. In the lead sentence 'conservatives and right-wing libertarians such as D'Souza, pushed the term … as part of a broader culture war against liberalism.' is the meaning 'conservatives such as D'Souza, and right-wing libertarians, pushed the term … as part of a broader culture war against liberalism'? ie is D'Souza a 'right-wing libertarian' in this context? Conservative he certainly is. I don't know him well, but it isn't a description that leaps out as appropriate for his views here.
Second small point, but in UK English, that would probably be 'cultural war', I don't know about US usage.Pincrete (talk) 22:48, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
- Re: culture war, see Culture War - it has specific meaning in an American context. I'll have to do some research on D'Souza before I can say for sure how best to describe him. Fyddlestix (talk) 00:09, 8 October 2015 (UTC)
- There are two possible links Libertarian conservatism, which relates equally to economic and social principles, and Libertarianism, I won't add either until the sentence's meaning is clear. I should have checked Culture War, which is less used I think in UK, though the phenomenon is familiar. Pincrete (talk) 08:24, 8 October 2015 (UTC)
- IF there is any doubt about the aptness of the term for d'Souza, might I suggest 'conservatives
such as D'Souza,and right-wing libertarians, pushed the term … as part of a broader culture war against liberalism'? . D'Souza is already mentioned in the previous sentence as the populariser of the term and his ideas are discussed in the body of the article. Pincrete (talk) 09:11, 8 October 2015 (UTC)
Removing political affiliations
User Pincrete suggested that we remove right-wing and left-wing from the article. Should this be done?
I say no, and I'll explain in a little a bit. But you can throw in your opinion while I gather up sources.
- WP:RS states the most defining guideline opposing the removal of mentioned biases:
- Editors should also consider whether the bias makes it appropriate to use in-text attribution to the source, as in "Feminist Betty Friedan wrote that...", "According to the Marxist economist Harry Magdoff...," or "Conservative Republican presidential candidate Barry Goldwater believed that...".
- WP:NPOV states: "controversies regarding aspects of the minority view should be clearly identified and explained." The political affiliations are in their way identification and explanation.
- And WP:NPOV: "Keep in mind that, in determining proper weight, we consider a viewpoint's prevalence in reliable sources, not its prevalence among Wikipedia editors or the general public." is applied when proper sources are found. The task at hand is to thus find proper sources to describe Ann Coulter and Bill O'Reilly as right-wing commentators. If concensus is found, I'll start adding such sources to the article.
- On WP:RS it is stated that "The reliability of a source depends on context." Political affiliation adds to the context. It's not reliable if you leave out the context from plain view.
- WP:RS also states "When taking information from opinion content, the identity of the author may help determine reliability." Without the political affiliation of the author taken into question, the quotes become unreliable.
- In WP:IS Wikipedia is defined as "an encyclopaedia which summarises viewpoints rather than a repository for viewpoints."
- At WP:V, questionable sources are brought up. In there is especially mentioned sources that "have an apparent conflict of interest". Red flags should be brought up when "challenged claims that are supported purely by primary or self-published sources or those with an apparent conflict of interest." In the case at hand the two commentators are used to reflect the American public's opinion at the time of the Dixie Chicks, even though their political affiliation is most related to the matter at hand. Leaving out the political affiliation, one gets the image that commentators all around were calling the Dixie Chicks treasonous. Even recognizable commentator names will no longer be recognizable by most in 10 years, which isn't that far way. Do you remember any similar commentators from before? I sure don't.
- If we are to remove mentions to the right-wing, then the two comments by Will Hutton and Polly Toynbee should be removed entirely, because they're just about that. In addition, the two's comments are given undue weight due to their size in their article, in my opinion; like stated in WP:NPOV: "The internal structure of an article may require additional attention, to protect neutrality, and to avoid problems like POV forking and undue weight. " Referring to the earlier WP:V, the two aren't talking about themselves: "Questionable sources should only be used as sources of material on themselves." And that "They are not suitable sources for contentious claims about others." And in WP:NPOV, it is stated that "Avoid stating opinions as facts." even though the two journalists opinion was presented in factual fashion. Maybe the two's opinions should be moved to the bottoms as they are not even from the 90s, and WP:NPOV: "Generally, the views of tiny minorities should not be included at all, except perhaps in a "see also" to an article about those specific views." On WP:RS it is encouraged not to use sources "which rely heavily on rumors and personal opinions."
- I also found it odd that it was not applied to D'Souza in the header of the article. In WP:V, it is stated that "All articles must adhere to NPOV, fairly representing all majority and significant-minority viewpoints published by reliable sources, in rough proportion to the prominence of each view." You can't adhere this without applying it to D'Souza. In addition, the article has few mentions of the left if the two referring to the journalists are removed, yet many more referring to the right. Many of the "right" and "right-wing" words should be changed to something else to better reflect neutrality. But I am not pro this, as removing all such mentions would neutralize the article entirely.
- In my suggestion we should apply the WP:NPOV statement "As a general rule, do not remove sourced information from the encyclopedia solely on the grounds that it seems biased. Instead, try to rewrite the passage or section to achieve a more neutral tone." in this article rather than removing all mentions of political affiliation. I'll continue adding and editing this post. --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 17:31, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
- Mr. Magoo and McBarker, I have never suggested any such thing as you start this post with, so please don't invent things I haven't said. I and others have SAID, not suggested, that political affiliations should not be stated unless it is reliably sourced that those affiliations are relevant to the subject. We give the simplest, but most accurate and brief description of who someone is, we don't describe Toynbee as feminist, socialist, atheist, former political candidate etc., we don't mention d'Souza's national origins, his christianity, nor a host of other things about him that have no bearing on the subject. Almost no one in the article's politics are identified unless they are clearly relevant to describing who they are or what they are saying. I don't know d'Souza well (I'm UK), therefore I don't know if the description of him is accurate and balanced (and sourced). I do know that describing Hutton or Toynbee as 'left-wingers' ALONE, and describing the SDP as 'a left-wing party', is crude in the extreme (they are all left-wing to the same extent that 45% of populace are 'left-wing', 45% are 'right-wing', that isn't a very helpful or accurate descriptor).Pincrete (talk) 18:10, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
- Well, sorry for misunderstanding you then, but that's what you seem to suggest once again with: "political affiliations should not be stated unless it is reliably sourced that those affiliations are relevant to the subject"; for this is a political article, aren't the political biases of commentators on the matter are very much related? Then why are you suggesting we remove all of them? And you say you give descriptions, but I believe before Will Hutton and Polly Toynbee had no descriptions? And you think one word more is too much information, when it's very much related to the matter at hand? And why bring up unrelated facts about D'Souza when it's mentioned that he's right-wing which is very much related? "Mentioning his national origins" sounds like a straw man. And I've provided 6 sources describing Polly and Will as left-wing journalists and authors, one of which is Will describing himself as left-wing. SDP isn't mentioned. Do you want me to edit in the sources for Ann Coutere and Bill O'Reilly? --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 18:20, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
- I don't care either way about Coulter etc. It is fairly obvious from context that their criticisms came from a 'patriotic' base, I think it likely that, whilst conservative critics may have been more vocal at the time of the Iraq invasion, I doubt if these were the only critics. The sentence is anyway only 'setting the scene' for the response that 'there are also right-wing limits on what can be said'. This aspect, in fact the whole section, is mainly US I think, and I have no opinion or knowledge. We don't bother to identify the Australian Labor leader's political viewpoint because it is self-evident, as is Foucault's Marxism. What I am arguing against is needlessly characterising people, and doing so crudely. We don't describe d'Souza as a 'right-winger', we do briefly, and (I hope) accurately, and sourced say what his political position is, which in this instance is very relevant to the WHY he has been criticised by left-wing commentators (which is the whole sentence in the lead).
- Well, sorry for misunderstanding you then, but that's what you seem to suggest once again with: "political affiliations should not be stated unless it is reliably sourced that those affiliations are relevant to the subject"; for this is a political article, aren't the political biases of commentators on the matter are very much related? Then why are you suggesting we remove all of them? And you say you give descriptions, but I believe before Will Hutton and Polly Toynbee had no descriptions? And you think one word more is too much information, when it's very much related to the matter at hand? And why bring up unrelated facts about D'Souza when it's mentioned that he's right-wing which is very much related? "Mentioning his national origins" sounds like a straw man. And I've provided 6 sources describing Polly and Will as left-wing journalists and authors, one of which is Will describing himself as left-wing. SDP isn't mentioned. Do you want me to edit in the sources for Ann Coutere and Bill O'Reilly? --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 18:20, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
- I don't think this article is very good, the only parts of it which I am responsible for are the opening sentence (which I tidied) and a few copy-edits later. Part of the difficulty is that PC (more so than other political terms), means whatever the user thinks it means, and is used to explain 100 different phenomena, 'lumping them together', as though they were the same thing, or part of the same agenda. I'm afraid it is simply a fact that it is very rare for the term to be used other than by critics (an example of positive use is in the first source of Doug Weller above, but even here 'PC' is being used 'in quotes') and because it is almost always NEW measures or policies that are being criticised, the critics are most commonly those who don't like change (ie social or political or educational conservatives). When was the last time you read an article, heard an interview, read a book that said "this is a wonderfully original and inventive, and politically correct idea/policy"? It doesn't happen, all the adjectives that normally accompany PC are critical or ironic.Pincrete (talk) 20:21, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
- We don't describe d'Souza as a 'right-winger'
- What? But the article does so in the summarization bit at the beginning? And if you don't care about the Ann's and Bill O'Reilly's description, why would you then edit it? I don't understand the logic? Is it okay to change back or not if you don't care? And the Labour leader has his political party given, how much more political description can you get? And to be frank I have no idea who Foucault is or about his marxism as you put it. I don't think he's a very household name. Maybe he's more known in philosophy circles. I mostly know what you'd expect: the medieval and antique philosophers. But the point about Ann and O'Reilly being right-wing is that the section is called right-wing political correctness. If you leave out the right-wing and let it just be "some US commentators", it sounds like the political field doesn't matter even though it does in context. Without the right-wing bit the sentence is broken? --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 22:50, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
- But it doesn't say right-winger, it says 'conservative author Dinesh D'Souza used it to condemn what he saw as left-wing efforts to advance multiculturalism through language, affirmative action, opposition to hate speech, and changes to the content of school and university curriculums'. You yourself say right-left can mean many things, economic, social etc, In this context d'Souza was criticising social and educational trends, which he saw as 'left-wing inspired', he was defending more traditional values in opposition to those changes. a)that's a fairly good definition of 'conservative' b) all sources identify him as such. I have no idea what d'Souza's political affiliation IS. It is quite possible for someone to be economically very left-wing, but socially very traditionalist. In this context it is his social conservatism which is relevant, not who he votes for. The point I was making about the Labor leader, is that this is simply the most efficient way to describe WHO he is, his profession, and it simply isn't true that we characterise all the right-wingers, but not the left-wingers, which you claim.
- I don't think this article is very good, the only parts of it which I am responsible for are the opening sentence (which I tidied) and a few copy-edits later. Part of the difficulty is that PC (more so than other political terms), means whatever the user thinks it means, and is used to explain 100 different phenomena, 'lumping them together', as though they were the same thing, or part of the same agenda. I'm afraid it is simply a fact that it is very rare for the term to be used other than by critics (an example of positive use is in the first source of Doug Weller above, but even here 'PC' is being used 'in quotes') and because it is almost always NEW measures or policies that are being criticised, the critics are most commonly those who don't like change (ie social or political or educational conservatives). When was the last time you read an article, heard an interview, read a book that said "this is a wonderfully original and inventive, and politically correct idea/policy"? It doesn't happen, all the adjectives that normally accompany PC are critical or ironic.Pincrete (talk) 20:21, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
- It really wouldn't matter much whether Coulter etc. as individuals were right/left. The point being made by the paragraph is that there are other forms of 'social censorship', other than left-wing ones. But as I said I have little involvement with that part of the article, apart from having heavily edited overlong accounts of the Dixie Chicks and Freedom Fries incidents, both of which are fairly peripheral to the main use of the term PC. Pincrete (talk) 08:17, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
- Read just below that? And the point being made by the famous paragraph is right-wing cencorship, and it breaks the point of the sentence if one doesn't point out the affiliation of the commentators. So if it doesn't matter to you, can I edit it back? --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 08:56, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
- The point is that we have multiple citations discussing d'Souza's positions (and the different ways similar actions are interpreted based on liberal vs. conservative political views.) The fact that he was writing from a conservative position is not normally something we would highlight, but in this case the fact that it's central to the article's coverage of his role in the controversy means we need to mention it; likewise, the paragraph on right-wing political correctness is specifically focused on sources talking about those political labels. The "left-wing" labels you want to add to the article aren't underlined as relevant in the same way; all you've managed to come up with are unrelated sources indicating that someone has called them left-wing at some point, which isn't sufficient to label them that everywhere they appear like this. And looking over the talk page, it doesn't seem like your arguments are convincing anyone else -- you appear to be the only editor here who supports the changes, while multiple people have objected. I mean, we can keep talking as long as you have new arguments, but at this point it feels like you're just saying the same things over and over and not convincing anyone; at a certain point, you have to accept that you're not convincing people and move on. --Aquillion (talk) 10:14, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
- WOW. You kept all right-wing mentions but removed the left-wing ones. You removed 5 academic (and one self-given by the person himself) sources for the left-wing ones and left the right-wing ones without sources but a journalist's blog. There's obviously no concensus for this because you even undid Pincrete's removal of the ring-wing mention. --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 10:51, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
- I suggest we keep all mentions from all sides. If Pincrete agrees, I can find proper sources for Ann and Bill being right-wing. --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 11:00, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
- I reverted back to the last stable version, which a reasonable thing to do when there's a dispute and no clear consensus. The sources you've provided don't support your assertion that the politics of the people in question are directly relevant to the topic at hand; otherwise, you could use those sources (which only show that the descriptor is accurate, not that it's relevant) to attach their identity as a disclaimer to everything they say everywhere. Normally, we only attach political descriptors like that when the person's politics is the crux of the topic -- this is the case in the 'right wing ideology' section or for discussion of d'Souza, but it isn't the case for the descriptors you keep adding. And I remain totally opposed to labeling Hutton or Toynbee; you have completely failed to provide any justification whatsoever for highlighting their politics. We could discuss removing some of the others where they are less relevant, but I think it's clear that the labels for Hutton or Toynbee have been clearly rejected -- you remain the only one who has ever indicated any support whatsoever for them. --Aquillion (talk) 11:05, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
- Again, you returned bits not even removed by me. You also didn't revert to anything but you added things that weren't there originally. Also, why does the article have 17 mentions of the right side of politics if the sides of the politics have nothing to do with this political article? And how in the world is ideology central to D'Souza but not to people criticizing not him but anyone who uses the term political correctness? How in the world do you find one just but not the other? --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 11:13, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
- I reverted back to the last stable version, which a reasonable thing to do when there's a dispute and no clear consensus. The sources you've provided don't support your assertion that the politics of the people in question are directly relevant to the topic at hand; otherwise, you could use those sources (which only show that the descriptor is accurate, not that it's relevant) to attach their identity as a disclaimer to everything they say everywhere. Normally, we only attach political descriptors like that when the person's politics is the crux of the topic -- this is the case in the 'right wing ideology' section or for discussion of d'Souza, but it isn't the case for the descriptors you keep adding. And I remain totally opposed to labeling Hutton or Toynbee; you have completely failed to provide any justification whatsoever for highlighting their politics. We could discuss removing some of the others where they are less relevant, but I think it's clear that the labels for Hutton or Toynbee have been clearly rejected -- you remain the only one who has ever indicated any support whatsoever for them. --Aquillion (talk) 11:05, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
- The point is that we have multiple citations discussing d'Souza's positions (and the different ways similar actions are interpreted based on liberal vs. conservative political views.) The fact that he was writing from a conservative position is not normally something we would highlight, but in this case the fact that it's central to the article's coverage of his role in the controversy means we need to mention it; likewise, the paragraph on right-wing political correctness is specifically focused on sources talking about those political labels. The "left-wing" labels you want to add to the article aren't underlined as relevant in the same way; all you've managed to come up with are unrelated sources indicating that someone has called them left-wing at some point, which isn't sufficient to label them that everywhere they appear like this. And looking over the talk page, it doesn't seem like your arguments are convincing anyone else -- you appear to be the only editor here who supports the changes, while multiple people have objected. I mean, we can keep talking as long as you have new arguments, but at this point it feels like you're just saying the same things over and over and not convincing anyone; at a certain point, you have to accept that you're not convincing people and move on. --Aquillion (talk) 10:14, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
- Read just below that? And the point being made by the famous paragraph is right-wing cencorship, and it breaks the point of the sentence if one doesn't point out the affiliation of the commentators. So if it doesn't matter to you, can I edit it back? --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 08:56, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
- It really wouldn't matter much whether Coulter etc. as individuals were right/left. The point being made by the paragraph is that there are other forms of 'social censorship', other than left-wing ones. But as I said I have little involvement with that part of the article, apart from having heavily edited overlong accounts of the Dixie Chicks and Freedom Fries incidents, both of which are fairly peripheral to the main use of the term PC. Pincrete (talk) 08:17, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
I support Aquilions revert - the sources were only there to support the left wing label, which there's no consensus to include. So really they only thing worth debating here is if Ann Coulter and Bill O'Reilly should be described as right wing. Personally I think they should be, although maybe we could entertain "conservative" as a possible compromise? Def don't support "keeping all labels" - for reasons we've discussed ad nauseum. Fyddlestix (talk) 11:08, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
- It's not the slightest bit surprising the gang of three support removal of any bias mentioned of left-wing sources, but want to keep any bias mentioned of right-wingers. I've already shown how the creator of Congratulations and Extremely biased/one-sided agree with me, only they're lone editors who get attacked instantly by Aquillion and Pincrete when they wanted to change the 1990s section. Refer to Wikipedia guideline mentioned earlier: --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 11:16, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
- Editors should also consider whether the bias makes it appropriate to use in-text attribution to the source, as in "Feminist Betty Friedan wrote that...", "According to the Marxist economist Harry Magdoff...," or "Conservative Republican presidential candidate Barry Goldwater believed that...".
- Your quote says 'should consider', it does not sat 'should include'. We don't as you repeatedly have said identify every right-winger. IF the description of d'Souza was simply 'right-winger', I might agree with you, but it isn't. IF - in your opinion - the description of d'Souza is crude, biased or not supported by sources, suggest a better, but working through the article attaching political labels to everyone is not an answer. Especially since the quote from Toynbee itself strongly implies that she is clearly NOT a right-winger, just as the Foucault quote makes it obvious he is Marxist.
- I have already said that I am neutral about ex/including the descriptions of Coulter etc. and happy for those who know the US better to decide the right descriptors. Pincrete (talk) 17:44, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
- You don't think "should consider" is enough? And yes, you do identify multiple people as right-wingers and refer to the right 17 times in the article. And the descriptions of Polly and Hutton aren't just their political affiliations, but their political affiliation plus their profession. Before I even edited their professions weren't even mentioned. They weren't there originally. Yet you're completely fine with keeping added "labeling" like that — because it doesn't point out their bias. And labeling people in a political article is an answer, like shown by the Wikipedia guideline. You don't get to make the rules, Wikipedia does. And your point about Toynbee's quote implying her affiliation falls moot because so would the the right-wingers, yet they are still mentioned to be right-wingers. --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 11:03, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
- The important thing is that labeling be clearly relevant to why we're quoting them. Their careers (and, I just realized, their nationality, since they're being quoted in the context of the part of the section that focuses on the use of the term in Britain) are important because they establish their expertise. Their politics are something that most of the people here, at least, don't feel is as important, at least not to the point of highlighting it like that -- I suspect that the issue might be that you attach more weight and significance to things like "center-left" as labels. --Aquillion (talk) 18:52, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
- I just counted the number of times 'the right' or 'right-wing' are used, about 5 were within quotes and the total I made 16 (ignoring headings and 'the rights' and other meanings), 'the left/left wing' are used about 14 times, 'liberal' and 'conservative' are both used about the same number of times as each other (same criteria in every case, ignore 'liberal' meaning 'generous'). Very few individuals are identified by their political position, the usages are generally 'left wing/right wing critics said etc.' There simply is no significant imbalance in identifying groups or individuals, especially as this article is mainly about a term used by conservatives to criticise mainly left/liberal initiatives. D'Souza is characterised as 'conservative' and it would make nonsense of the sentence to NOT identify that he was criticising what he saw as liberal/left-wing initiatives from a conservative viewpoint.
- The important thing is that labeling be clearly relevant to why we're quoting them. Their careers (and, I just realized, their nationality, since they're being quoted in the context of the part of the section that focuses on the use of the term in Britain) are important because they establish their expertise. Their politics are something that most of the people here, at least, don't feel is as important, at least not to the point of highlighting it like that -- I suspect that the issue might be that you attach more weight and significance to things like "center-left" as labels. --Aquillion (talk) 18:52, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
- You don't think "should consider" is enough? And yes, you do identify multiple people as right-wingers and refer to the right 17 times in the article. And the descriptions of Polly and Hutton aren't just their political affiliations, but their political affiliation plus their profession. Before I even edited their professions weren't even mentioned. They weren't there originally. Yet you're completely fine with keeping added "labeling" like that — because it doesn't point out their bias. And labeling people in a political article is an answer, like shown by the Wikipedia guideline. You don't get to make the rules, Wikipedia does. And your point about Toynbee's quote implying her affiliation falls moot because so would the the right-wingers, yet they are still mentioned to be right-wingers. --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 11:03, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
- I have already said that I am neutral about ex/including the descriptions of Coulter etc. and happy for those who know the US better to decide the right descriptors. Pincrete (talk) 17:44, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
- If you found 100 sources that said d'Souza was Christian or of Indian ancestry, we would be opposed to including the info, because it would be unnecessary characterisation. MOST of the sources on Toynbee/Hutton, give a more nuanced description than 'left-winger' anyway, but, regardless, the info is unnecessary. Why not characterise Toynbee as 'feminist' (at least as relevant to a discussion on PC?), no bad idea, it isn't useful or necessary to understanding her quote. What about atheist? Equally bad idea. As Aquillion says you simply seem to want to attach labels to people, that don't in any way aid understanding, and which anyway aren't very accurately informative. Pincrete (talk) 21:33, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
- Alright, I'll change from left-wing to left-affiliated. In addition, you are somehow completely distorting the amount of lefts and rights in the article. The article as per now has 11 lefts counted with CTRL+F (two will be added), and only two mentions of the left-wing. 3 of the mentions are in the origin paragraph where it's stated they began its use as part of the New Left. The article still has 17 mentions of the right of which 13 are of the right-wing with and without the dash. Yes, section titles are obviously to be counted. Also, liberal is used similarly 11 times where as conservative is used whopping 23 times. Those are "about the same" to you? It's so painfully obvious that this article was written and dictated according to the bias of one side. --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 04:53, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
- If you found 100 sources that said d'Souza was Christian or of Indian ancestry, we would be opposed to including the info, because it would be unnecessary characterisation. MOST of the sources on Toynbee/Hutton, give a more nuanced description than 'left-winger' anyway, but, regardless, the info is unnecessary. Why not characterise Toynbee as 'feminist' (at least as relevant to a discussion on PC?), no bad idea, it isn't useful or necessary to understanding her quote. What about atheist? Equally bad idea. As Aquillion says you simply seem to want to attach labels to people, that don't in any way aid understanding, and which anyway aren't very accurately informative. Pincrete (talk) 21:33, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
- The article is about a term used predominantly by social or political conservatives, for which one shorthand term is 'the right', 4 or 5 instances of 'the right' are within quotes. It might be meaningful to find a quote from d'S, or some other critic of PC, in which they use the term PC to criticise 'the left' as an exemplar of its use, but simply attaching labels to people for no reason is pointless.
- btw, you accuse Aquillion and I of 'ganging up' on FriendlyFred, Fred's main point was that some aspects of 'PC' were positive, that (for example), changing negatively characterising terms for groups of people to more neutral terms was a good thing. Why was our article so negative, he wanted to know. Because for every instance of PC being used partly positively, there are innumerable using the term critically. Even the example he gave was mainly saying that the term had been 'hi-jacked' by critics. He nowhere says that the article is excessively pro-left or anti-right. Pincrete (talk) 09:05, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
- "The article is about a term used predominantly by social or political conservatives"; so the article should be only used to attack anyone who uses the term, without even noting the attacks come from the other major political camp and not some mysterious "majority" of academics like you keep claiming without proving or sourcing your claim in any way? Wow, your logic is impeccable. Or might you simply be utterly biased and corrupt? --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 07:00, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
- 'Affiliated' doesn't solve the underlying objections above, no. It's even worse, because it implies a tighter degree of rigid affiliation to some party or ideal that isn't really clear even from your sources. As far as your term-counting goes, it's important to remember that we're not supposed to force an artificial balance on an article; we cover things according to their weight in high-quality mainstream sources, academic literature and so on. The academic sources that talk about the origin and usage of this term generally focus more on its origins among conservatives; and sources among talking-heads and the like who use it tend to overwhelmingly be conservatives, so it's hardly a surprise that the term would come up so much. Beyond that, I think it would be easier to discuss this if you would stop accusing everyone who disagrees with you here of acting out of ideological bias. Obviously we disagree on the subject, the sources, and how to present them most accurately, but you have to assume good faith that the differences represent honest disagreement, or we're never going to get anywhere. --Aquillion (talk) 10:08, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
- Again, the article has plenty of mentions of right-wing affiliation, and I believe the "wing" addition is much worse. Affiliated is much kinder and solves your objections. And the only people opposing me are the two who pretty much control the article to fit their bias, easily proven by the talk page where many have raised their voices yet you shoot them down in a group, because groups beat loners. Your editing history proves you pretty much only edit political articles and to a left bias, never even to a neutral bias. Fyddle is the same but I believe he stumbled here on a chance and is possibly unrelated to you two friends. --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 07:00, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
- Like I said, though, I don't see how the number of mentions of 'right-wing' or 'left-wing' is meaningful -- if anything, the large number of usages of 'right-wing' would indicate that the article spends a lot of time quoting right-wing voices and citing what they say; you've only identified two left-wing voices quoted at any length. Which, again, isn't something I think is really a problem, since my feeling is that among "talking heads" and the like, right-wing / conservative voices use the term a lot more often. Anyway, I've tried to assay a compromise by folding these two quotes into the paragraph above them about liberal responses (which is, in retrospect, probably what they were originally there for.) I still don't think that your phrasing on their politics is appropriate, but folding them into that clearly illustrates at least the general perspective they're being quoted here to illustrate, which is what matters, more than what people have said about them in other contexts. --Aquillion (talk) 07:22, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
- You don't think they're meaningful? Wow. And the article spends a lot of time quoting left-wing voices but doesn't atribute them to a left affiliation because you keep removing any such mentions. You also undid two editors' edits for no reason; changing back. You ought to be banned from editing this article. At least Pincrete isn't absolutely nuts. --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 09:53, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
- Like I said, I still don't see the meaning of counting the number of usages; it's not a metric that it makes sense to try and deliberately balance. We use the term "right-wing" and the like in the article many times because the sources specifically discuss that as part of the term's history; we don't, notice, describe eg. most of the people in the Education section as right-wing, even though most people would classify them that way, because in that case that's not the aspect of them that the sources focus on. I did just rearrange the section you're talking about here to place them under the list of examples of left-wing comments; but I don't feel that your "left-affiliated" wording is appropriate for the reasons I outlined above. Also, please read WP:CIVIL and WP:AGF; I know this article is on a hot-button subject, but it's not appropriate to call other editors 'nuts' or make sweeping claims of bias just because we disagree. --Aquillion (talk) 11:18, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
- You lied about the numbers, and now you don't think they don't mean anything. You provide no sources for right-wing, I provide 6 for left-wing and of one which is is the person calling himself left-wing. --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 19:02, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
- Like I said, I still don't see the meaning of counting the number of usages; it's not a metric that it makes sense to try and deliberately balance. We use the term "right-wing" and the like in the article many times because the sources specifically discuss that as part of the term's history; we don't, notice, describe eg. most of the people in the Education section as right-wing, even though most people would classify them that way, because in that case that's not the aspect of them that the sources focus on. I did just rearrange the section you're talking about here to place them under the list of examples of left-wing comments; but I don't feel that your "left-affiliated" wording is appropriate for the reasons I outlined above. Also, please read WP:CIVIL and WP:AGF; I know this article is on a hot-button subject, but it's not appropriate to call other editors 'nuts' or make sweeping claims of bias just because we disagree. --Aquillion (talk) 11:18, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
- You don't think they're meaningful? Wow. And the article spends a lot of time quoting left-wing voices but doesn't atribute them to a left affiliation because you keep removing any such mentions. You also undid two editors' edits for no reason; changing back. You ought to be banned from editing this article. At least Pincrete isn't absolutely nuts. --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 09:53, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
- Like I said, though, I don't see how the number of mentions of 'right-wing' or 'left-wing' is meaningful -- if anything, the large number of usages of 'right-wing' would indicate that the article spends a lot of time quoting right-wing voices and citing what they say; you've only identified two left-wing voices quoted at any length. Which, again, isn't something I think is really a problem, since my feeling is that among "talking heads" and the like, right-wing / conservative voices use the term a lot more often. Anyway, I've tried to assay a compromise by folding these two quotes into the paragraph above them about liberal responses (which is, in retrospect, probably what they were originally there for.) I still don't think that your phrasing on their politics is appropriate, but folding them into that clearly illustrates at least the general perspective they're being quoted here to illustrate, which is what matters, more than what people have said about them in other contexts. --Aquillion (talk) 07:22, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
- Again, the article has plenty of mentions of right-wing affiliation, and I believe the "wing" addition is much worse. Affiliated is much kinder and solves your objections. And the only people opposing me are the two who pretty much control the article to fit their bias, easily proven by the talk page where many have raised their voices yet you shoot them down in a group, because groups beat loners. Your editing history proves you pretty much only edit political articles and to a left bias, never even to a neutral bias. Fyddle is the same but I believe he stumbled here on a chance and is possibly unrelated to you two friends. --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 07:00, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
- btw, you accuse Aquillion and I of 'ganging up' on FriendlyFred, Fred's main point was that some aspects of 'PC' were positive, that (for example), changing negatively characterising terms for groups of people to more neutral terms was a good thing. Why was our article so negative, he wanted to know. Because for every instance of PC being used partly positively, there are innumerable using the term critically. Even the example he gave was mainly saying that the term had been 'hi-jacked' by critics. He nowhere says that the article is excessively pro-left or anti-right. Pincrete (talk) 09:05, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
- At least Pincrete isn't absolutely nuts. ? Damned by faint praise?
- Mr. Magoo, I challenge you to write a meaningful brief summary of d'Souza's book (which is creditted with popularising the term PC in the US), WITHOUT mentioning that he was criticising trends in society and education, that he saw as being part of a left/liberal orthodoxy, and his opposition to those trends was rooted in more traditional, socially conservative, values. This is not done to 'label' or demonise him, it is simply a description of his book. A book by anyone MIGHT similarly need to be described such that the purpose and content of the book was clear. Pincrete (talk) 15:09, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
- What exactly are you asking for and why? I also don't think he mentions the left even once. --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 19:02, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
- He mentions it several times, accusing someone of being a 'mouthpiece for left-wing ideas', accusing someone else of supporting 'left-wing' causes, and so on. He uses 'liberal' far more often (because it's a more common term in the US), but he does make it clear that he's targeting what he sees as a left-wing bias in academia. But beyond that, numerous reliable sources have said that D'Souza published the book for a right-wing think tank, as part of a larger push by numerous right-wing think tanks to advance that particular perspective. This is central to the term's history; numerous sources document it, and as far as I can tell no reliable sources dispute it. So we do have to cover it somehow. --Aquillion (talk) 19:39, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
- Amongst 319 pages there are 9 lefts of the political kind, and 10 regular lefts where someone leaves something. The first one you mentioned is of a peasant Latin-American, where the person is criticizing Western society. Secondly, 6 out of the political lefts are quotes of someone else. Of the remaining three, the first is of the aforementioned peasant. Second is Dinesh listing the biases of different academics, and of which the left-one is quoted to be supporting "Go Left!". Third is the newspaper The Nation, which is stated to be left-wing yet putting to question Paul de Man's collaboration. --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 20:09, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
- He mentions it several times, accusing someone of being a 'mouthpiece for left-wing ideas', accusing someone else of supporting 'left-wing' causes, and so on. He uses 'liberal' far more often (because it's a more common term in the US), but he does make it clear that he's targeting what he sees as a left-wing bias in academia. But beyond that, numerous reliable sources have said that D'Souza published the book for a right-wing think tank, as part of a larger push by numerous right-wing think tanks to advance that particular perspective. This is central to the term's history; numerous sources document it, and as far as I can tell no reliable sources dispute it. So we do have to cover it somehow. --Aquillion (talk) 19:39, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
- What exactly are you asking for and why? I also don't think he mentions the left even once. --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 19:02, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
- Mr. Magoo, I challenge you to write a meaningful brief summary of d'Souza's book (which is creditted with popularising the term PC in the US), WITHOUT mentioning that he was criticising trends in society and education, that he saw as being part of a left/liberal orthodoxy, and his opposition to those trends was rooted in more traditional, socially conservative, values. This is not done to 'label' or demonise him, it is simply a description of his book. A book by anyone MIGHT similarly need to be described such that the purpose and content of the book was clear. Pincrete (talk) 15:09, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
Re:What exactly are you asking for and why?, what I am asking for is how we should describe the book by D'Souza (which is credited in a number of sources with popularising the term PC and to some extent defining its usage, particularly in US). "D'Souza criticised some trends in education and society"? Not very informative, what trends and why? Were they not radical enough for him? Why did he think these trends were occurring? Please write a short meaningful, informative, single sentence summary of the ideas in his book (supported by sources) and of the criticisms he was making/solutions he was advocating, suitable for a lead. By your own rules, the sentence may not contain the words 'conservative', 'liberal', or any kind of wing. Unless you can do that, you are just 'carping for carping's sake', complaining about our description, but unable to suggest anything better. Pincrete (talk) 21:56, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
- But those were your own rules? And it was about right and left and not about conservative/liberal? --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 17:42, 16 October 2015 (UTC)
- I don't object to the description of d'Souza as 'conservative author', I presume you have therefore now dropped your opposition. I don't object to the description of the 'broad sweep' of the book. You have just replaced that description with your own interpretation of the book, WP:OR, supported by the primary source (the book itself). I have raised the question below as to whether the description 'Right-wing libertarian' is appropriate for d'Souza. The term is mainly a US one, and I am unsure whether it is apt in his case, or supported by sources. Pincrete (talk) 19:19, 16 October 2015 (UTC)
- I never talked about the conservative term? What has that got to do with anything? --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 19:35, 16 October 2015 (UTC)
- I don't object to the description of d'Souza as 'conservative author', I presume you have therefore now dropped your opposition. I don't object to the description of the 'broad sweep' of the book. You have just replaced that description with your own interpretation of the book, WP:OR, supported by the primary source (the book itself). I have raised the question below as to whether the description 'Right-wing libertarian' is appropriate for d'Souza. The term is mainly a US one, and I am unsure whether it is apt in his case, or supported by sources. Pincrete (talk) 19:19, 16 October 2015 (UTC)
- Actually you did, on 04:53, 9 October 2015 and 23:48, 30 September 2015 (when you complained about 'conservative' being used more often than 'liberal'), though you do mostly refer to left/right. I'm ignoring you quoting. Pincrete (talk) 21:50, 16 October 2015 (UTC)
- In the first case I don't mention either word, and in the second it's my very first post on the talk page where I mention it alongside right-wing — and mostly because other sections like "Extremely biased/one-sided" had used that term more. Then from thereon I use the term right-wing about a hundred times on the talk page. So, I once mentioned conservative (and never liberal). And you think it's conservative I've been talking about? You must be reading Dinesh's book with the same glasses. --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 22:34, 17 October 2015 (UTC)
- Actually you did, on 04:53, 9 October 2015 and 23:48, 30 September 2015 (when you complained about 'conservative' being used more often than 'liberal'), though you do mostly refer to left/right. I'm ignoring you quoting. Pincrete (talk) 21:50, 16 October 2015 (UTC)