Talk:Political objections to the Baháʼí Faith

Sources don't report `Abdu'l-Bahá as "hosting" Rothchild, or "praising" Zionists

Reading sources - the first does not mention `Abdu'l-Bahá "hosting Rothchild - in fact since R was only in Haifa for less than a hour, and presumably had other business, this seems very highly unlikely. His actual reference to Rothchild is actually rather uncomplimentary than otherwise - so once again this is a clear case of the sense of a source being directly opposite to the text to which it refers. `Abdu'l-Bahá's actual words, as reported by the second source is reserved, even mildly critical, of the Zionists, and cannot be described as "praise". As I have said before - sources are good, provided we take what they actually say rather than what we wish they said. --Soundofmusicals (talk) 22:46, 23 January 2017 (UTC)

I recommend you read the sources again. The Star of the West article mentions the visit of Baron Edmond James de Rothschild, and `Abdu'l-Bahá's comments regarding Zionism are nothing short of laudatory.

On February 23, 1914, at the eve of World War I, `Abdu'l-Bahá hosted Baron Edmond James de Rothschild, a member of the Rothschild banking family who was a leading advocate and financier of the Zionist movement, during one of his early trips to Palestine.

Subsequent to the British occupation of Palestine, at a time when tens of thousands of Jewish settlers were arriving under the auspices of the Palestine Jewish Colonization Association, `Abdu'l-Bahá praised the Zionist movement, proclaiming that "There is too much talk today of what the Zionists are going to do here. There is no need of it. Let them come and do more and say less" and that "A Jewish government might come later."

To call even this somewhat selective quotation "praise" of the Zionists or their aims is singularly bizarre - at best (worst) it is neutral or even mildly critical. It is, of course, not especially prescient - one gets the impression A. believed a "Jewish government" (in Palestine) was unlikely, whereas as we know ... which gives little support to enthusiastic Baha'i views of `Abdu'l-Bahá as being aware of all future events. His remarks about Rothchild, and in particular R's extreme wealth, are even less supportive of your POV - it gives no indication whatever that they had a chance to meet (without some such evidence it seems, as I have said, most unlikely, if only due to R.'s VERY brief stay in Haifa - he was hardly there long enough to do more than exchange the briefest of pleasantries. No time for "hosting", for sure. I have said this before, but I am concerned that this article does NOT avoid legitimate doubts or criticisms, where these can be accurately sourced. NO article in an encyclopedia should be based on either questionable sources, or (even worse) arguments that actually run counter to a source, no matter how reliable. --Soundofmusicals (talk) 02:32, 10 February 2017 (UTC)

Freemasonry symbols in the Baha'i Faith

There are many DISTINCTIVE massonic symbols in the Baha'i monuments and even in its latest official symbol (33rd degree massonic symbol) altogeather. Progressive infiltration or secret submission to freemassonry, let the historians do their work..

I have been reverted twice by "Soundofmusicals" twice because he doesn't like facts and my source, apparently. This is part of my recent edit:

Specific accusations connecting the Bahá'í Faith to Freemasonry include the display of massonic symbols such as the obelisk on Mount Carmel (as the future location of the Baha'i House of Worship in Israel), or the globe over the marble column erected over the resting place of Shoghi Effendi in London; or yet the NEW three intermingled triangles, which represent the official Baha'i symbol (as displayed on their official website at "www.bahai.org" as of 2018).

• • end of proposed edit**

I would like to hear other opinions (neutral, non-bahai and uninvolved with baha'i topics in Wikipedia) as to WHY this material information needs to be censored. "Because it is impossible to deny" is not a good reason IMO.

The "Baha'i" nine pointed star would most certainly not be recognised as a masonic symbol by the Masons themselves - although when it is drawn in the form of three triangles it might vaguely resemble one. The point is that in spite of Baha'is being criticised for many years as being "connected to" or even "like" the Masons this particular point has never been made. If one could point to a citation in a reliable source that someone had made the connection then there might be a case. (The citation suggested doesn't mention the Baha'is so how it can be brought into this argument I have no idea.) As has often been pointed out no one has ever said that the Baha'is and the Masons are "enemies" or antagonistic in any way - so far as I know they are most certainly not. Baha'is are simply not allowed to belong to "other" religious or quasi-religious organisations. They are no more allowed to belong to the Cathothic Church or the Jehovah's Witnesses, nor to be Mormons. In Iran, in particular, the Masons and the Baha'is happen to have some common enemies, and it might be a handy handle criticise them in one go? This would be supposition, so it doesn't belong in the text of Wikipedia, any more than the fantasy that either group is "infiltrating" the other. --Soundofmusicals (talk) 06:31, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

@Soundsofmusicals: You raise false issues that are NOT raised in the above questions and fail to answer again. First a Baha'I who represents the UHJ should answer. What a scam this has become!... 99.203.24.12 (talk) 02:29, 22 July 2019 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not censored. If you have citations just share them, but unreferenced conspiracies will be deleted. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 15:21, 23 July 2019 (UTC)

Citations were given in 2018: "Shall I Be a Masson, Life or Death" by P.D. Stuart. ISBN: 978-0-9562867-3-4. (for page numbers see edit page history). The issue is not "censorship" & the above are FACTS everyone can witness (not any "conspiracy theory"). & apparently, your cult is considered a (secret) "sect" by a reliable source (i.e. your "friends" at the MoFA of Israel). 99.203.25.209 (talk) 16:19, 28 July 2019 (UTC)

If I'm understanding you right, you were citing the book by Stuart to support the statements that Freemasonry uses certain symbols, but it is your personal opinion that the use of an obelisk to mark a location in Haifa means that Baha'is have a connection to Freemasonry. That doesn't fly here. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 18:24, 29 July 2019 (UTC)

For your info, Wikipedia can also become CENSORED. Respectfully, it is your logic, disregard for a body of [ https://archive.org/details/gov.uscourts.njd.295395 PROOF or FACTS] and chronology that doesn't make much sense. Are you a real "baha'i"? 99.203.24.253 (talk) 20:32, 29 July 2019 (UTC)

References

Political infiltration?

This fact is undisputable and material. Yet, it is reverted for no reason by someone who claims to belong to that Sect:

"Other assertions, include that Hoveyda (who was the prime minister of the late Shah of Iran), was of Baha'i extraction and a freemason. Moreover, Hoveyda had many ministers of Baha'i extraction (despite the fact that there were not many Baha'is relative to Iran's general population) at that time." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.87.9.26 (talk) 20:00, 23 December 2018 (UTC)

And you are an antisemitic troll, who has spent months plunking your fascist crap on multiple pages on this site. Why should any of us listen to you? Go take your nonsense somewhere else. We don't welcome this kind of terrorist propaganda anywhere on the Wikimedia sites, regardless of shape or form. LightandDark2000 🌀 (talk) 05:11, 8 March 2019 (UTC)

@LightandDark: You are a "terrorist", a child molester, a troll and a REPORTED-stalker with a locked user-talk page (& I am not all these persons - in the sense that not ALL the edits are mine, including some of those edits made on the same or consecutive days (see tag about "shared IP address" at the bottom).99.203.25.50 (talk) 04:29, 28 July 2019 (UTC)

Wow. For someone who claims to be unrelated to a known troll, you seem to care a lot about my comment that supposedly has nothing to do with you. Why the anger if it wasn't you to begin with? Anyhow, consider this your only warning. If you make another unsubstantiated attack as you did just above, I will report this behavior to an administrator. LightandDark2000 🌀 (talk) 20:55, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

@LighrandDark2000: Same here. If you don't feel at home in the USA, may be you should move to a different country, just a thought...99.203.24.66 (talk) 05:53, 3 August 2019 (UTC)

That something you're considering? Wow. I'm a Nationalist, thank you very much. Anyhow. I'm done wasting my time here. LightandDark2000 🌀 (talk) 08:16, 3 August 2019 (UTC)

Bahaism doesn't tolerate nationalism. What they like is patriotism I was told. No surprise u want to leave then. Good bye.. (By the way, i am not "anti-anything", but Pro-"truth"). 99.203.25.163 (talk) 20:11, 3 August 2019 (UTC)

List of high ranking Iranian officials referred in the above: Hoveyda, thse Shah’s 13-year Prime Minister as well as Minister of the Imperial Court and Minister of Finance; Mehri Rasekh, Farah’s boon companion; Gen. Abdol Karim Ayadi, the Shah’s special physician, who held 23 high-ranking government jobs; Gen. Ali Mohammad Khademi; Gen. Sani’ee, Minister of War; Habib Sabet and Hojabr Yazdani, two major economic supports and two financial arms of the Zionists in Iran; Mansoor Rohani, the Shah’s minister for 13 years; Mrs Farokhrou Parsa, Minister of Education and holder of tens of other jobs; Shapour Rasekh, the Shah’s sincere advisor; Hossein Amanat, the famous capitalist, designer and executor of the Shahyad Monu­ment; Parviz Sabeti, Director of Internal Security of the Shah’s security police; Lili Amir-Arjomand, trainer of the Shah' children.

This list might not be complete however. 99.203.25.157 (talk) 11:28, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

Thank you for exposing yourself as an agent of the Iranian government, cause nobody else would walk around with a list like that. This is the kind of propaganda the government is spreading so they can justify their extermination of a religious minority they don't like. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 18:16, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

Read the above reference. I am affiliated with the U.S. Air Force, u clown.99.203.25.147 (talk) 21:48, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

& don't shoot the messenger :) 99.203.24.53 (talk) 22:14, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

Stop editing over older comments. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 05:46, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

Stop editing archived links/talk page discussions then!:) 99.203.25.12 (talk) 00:02, 4 August 2019 (UTC)

Please don't shoot at us, Youtube is the medium (NOT the reason why u are alledgedly persecuted by the Iranian regime).. 99.203.25.139 (talk) 20:29, 3 August 2019 (UTC)

Freemasonry section

I fixed some POV, tense, titular, and capitalization issues in the section regarding the Baha'i Faith's supposed connection to Freemasonry: 1. Freemasonry is always capitalized, as it's the name of the practices and beliefs of the fraternity. 2. Mason, freemason, masonic, etc. Are never capitalized unless used as a proper bame or the beginning of a sentence. An example of a proper name would be the Grand Lodge of Free and Accepted Masons of Iran (in Exile), or the Masonic Service Association. 3. The belief that Freemasonry is a secret society is debated, especially since the descriptor arose in common usage during the previous century, and the very public nature of American grand lodges.

I welcome questions and critiques of my edits. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pepe Oats (talk • contribs) 16:31, 19 January 2019 (UTC)

Baha'is and Protocols of Zion link

Hi,

I am a researcher and would like to know if there is any LINK between the accusations against the Baha'is in general and the forgery called the Protocols of the Elders of Zion? It seems (to me at least) that all of the accusations have this common denominator here. Thanks. 173.70.151.202 (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 16:20, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

I am not sure it has any relationship with your question but I found this link today titled "the Protocols of the Followers of Baha'u'llah" which could be used to expand this article. One way to explain this is thru infiltration of the Baha'i sect. Take a look]. 2607:FB91:1324:4581:3872:4385:AA82:34C3 (talk) 14:48, 12 September 2023 (UTC)