Talk:Pillars of Hercules

Map

I would really really really really like to see a map with the area in question shown as i have no idea of exactly what/where it is that is being described. Perhaps a photograph also might help others in my position? I live in Australia and have no idea about the coast of Gibralater or Sicily or anywhere else in that part of the world.

Disambiguation

The "Pillars of Hercules" are also referred to as the "columns of Hercules" in Gibbon's The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire (vol 1, ch 2, p.56) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.83.101.234 (talk) 21:46, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Different straits

Corrected the confusion between the Strait of Sicily (which separates Sicily from Tunisia)and the Strait of Messina (which separates Sicily from mainland Italy).

Strait of Sicily

"Before Eratosthenes about 250 BC, ancient Greek writers located the Pillars of Hercules on the Strait of Sicily. This changed with Alexander the Great’s eastward expansion and the Pillars were moved by Eratosthenes to Gibraltar. This evidence has been cited in some Atlantis theories, notably in Sergio Frau's."

That is nonsense. The "Pillars of Hercules" have always been whats now called "Strait of Gibraltar". Herodot wrote that the Mediterranean Sea ends at the Pillars of Hercules and a "sea called Atlantic" beginns there (Hdt. I 202). --Bender235 20:17, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Plato is the first one mentioning Atlantis, and at his time they knew nothing about Gibraltar, or Spain, or even Sardinia. He describes the Pillars of Hercules as a shallow passage, hard to navigate. Does Gibraltar match the description, considering it's 400m deep? According to recent studies the description matches the strait of Sicily, which corresponds also to the limit of the greek influence in the mediterranean at that time. I believe that the positioning of this geographical limit can change many things, we've looked at the wrong place for a long time due to later revisions of the original story. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.50.37.196 (talk) 20:37, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

I have a problem with "recent studies" claiming that the Strait of Sicily fits better Plato's description of the Pillars of Hercules. Which are these studies and where have they been published? (scientific references only, please). The Strait of Sicily is also very deep: it ranges between 365m up to 700-900 m in its central region. Its minimum width is about 150 km. This means that the crew on a ship sailing through the Strait of Sicily would be unable to see the two coastlines at the same time ( in other words, they would not notice any "strait"). In the Timaeus, Plato clearly states that Libya (Northen Africa)up to Egypt, and Europe up to Tyrrhenia (present Tuscany) were all located before the Pillars of Hercules. Had the Pillars been located in the Strait of Sicily, Thyrrhenia would have resulted beyond the Pillars, along with Sardinia, Corsica and the city of Carthage. To my knowledge, no classical Greek source tells us about the need to cross the Pillars of Hercules to sail between the Eastern Mediterranean and any of these four places.--Tyrsenos (talk) 17:30, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

firstofall, there is no written records that points at the pillars near Gibraltar. That’s a modern invention. Think about it; no one knew exactly where the pillars were at the time of Plato, how come we the modern people know about it? I have spent years in reading the ancient writings and they all argue about the location, nevertheless they all point at different location within a triangle perimeter – Tunis –Sardinia – Sicily. Think about it, the Island of Hades is somewhere near Sicily, aren’t the pillars supposed to be there? Someone pointed out that there are no descriptions: Meteorology - By Aristotle For we find the sea getting deeper and deeper. Pontus is deeper than Maeotis, the Aegean than Pontus, the Sicilian sea than the Aegean; the Sardinian and Tyrrhenic being the deepest of all. (Outside the pillars of Heracles the sea is shallow owing to the mud, but calm, for it lies in a hollow.) “

The History of Herodotus - Book || The Celts live beyond the pillars of Hercules, and border on the Cynesians —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.215.17.159 (talk) 14:27, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Since several scholars supported the idea of the Pillars of Herakles being shifted to the Strait of Gibraltar only in the later Hellenistic period, as well as the fact that a lot of sources predating the ones cited in the article (Strabo, Diodorus Siculus, Seneca) are ambiguous to say the least (and in some cases clearly contradict the location in Gibraltar), I think it may be opportune to add a section explaining with reasonable depth this quarrel, specifying the large amount of uncertainties that are still present.--151.38.160.242 (talk) 11:22, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

Atlantis?

This article is in the Category:Atlantis. However, there is no reference to Atlantis in the article. Can someone please explain this? Badbilltucker 21:36, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Herodotus placed Atlantis "beyond the Pillars of Hercules". Corvus cornix 21:45, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

It was Plato. Herodotus does not mention Atlantis. No one besides Plato does. ––Bender235 22:40, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, you're right, Plato. Corvus cornix 01:38, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Cart before the horse?

I find it hard to believe that two pillars on a temple in Gades inspired someone to find their geographic equivalent. Surely it would be the other way around. Ifnkovhg (talk) 23:32, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I went back and looked at Strabo. Naming a place for famous architecture is not unheard of, but the temple's lending its name to the place is a minority view. To represent it as the opinio communis in the opening paragraph is perverse. The Melqart stuff is best left under the "Phoenician" header. Ifnkovhg (talk) 05:18, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

A direct quote of Strabo would do the trick.--Wetman (talk) 05:26, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Hades, not Gades ? =

I believe that the Pillars of Hercules were known as the Gates of Hades, not the Gates of Gades.

24.24.245.25 (talk) 05:47, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Gades is the ancient designation for the city of Cádiz (Spain), maybe its a reference for the relative proximity of the city rather than Hades itself.--Escorxador (talk) 20:44, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

Could the name "Pillars of Hercules" be a hold-over from very ancient times?

When Plato is talking about Atlantis, he claims that it existed 9000 years before his own time. This would have meant he was talking about a place that existed in about 11,000 BC. This would have been during the last Ice Age. During the last Ice Age, the ocean levels were about 100 meters lower. If you lower the water that much at the Strait of Gibraltar, you would suddenly have two huge towering land forms on either side of the strait, and thus, very obvious "pillars". So, the fact that no one can figure out exactly what the "pillars" are in the "Pillars of Hercules" might just be because they are underwater now.

Has anyone ever heard of anyone else speculating about this idea? Just curious.

Nortonew (talk) 20:04, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Plato made no such claims for his trope, "Atlantis".--Wetman (talk) 20:10, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

My error about the time. Still it's a literary image, not a geographical one.--Wetman (talk) 20:17, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Have you ever read the section of Plato's Timaeus that deals with Atlantis? He goes into quite a lot of detail regarding the history and geography of Atlantis if he is just making it up to use as a literary image. We don't have any evidence at all that supports the idea that he meant it solely as a literary image. Its quite possible that he really believed that there once really was such a place as Atlantis. You can read the text of Plato's dialogue on the subject here: http://www.theoi.com/Phylos/Atlantes.html --Nortonew (talk) 16:53, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

That would shift the figure of Heracles back into the Stone Age?--Wetman (talk) 19:35, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Well, it would shift the concept of there being "pillars" at the Straits of Gibraltar back to the Stone Age. However, the Greeks had a tendency to use the name of one of their own gods in place of any similar foreign god. So, the "pillars" may have originally been associated with some other ancient deity from some long-forgotten proto-culture from the Ice Age. At least, that would be my guess. Another interesting thing in Plato's description is that he claims it was impossible to sail beyond the Strait of Gibraltar because there was a huge mass of mud there after Atlantis sank. Of course, there isn't any huge mud mass there now. In fact, its seems unlikely that there was a huge mass of mud there during Plato's time. However, if you lowered the seas by about 100 meters, you might end up with a mud mass there. So, one again, Plato may have been relying on VERY outdated information on the geography of the area. -- Nortonew (talk) 16:27, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

If y'all have any more new speculations, would you mind taking them to v:? They allow original research over there. 141.152.29.215 (talk) 16:54, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

That looks like a cool site. Thanks for suggesting it -- Nortonew (talk) 15:47, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Phoenician connections

There is evidence at the beginning of Classical Greece of a deep Phoenician connection. A Phoenician entreport was established in Rhodes, and Phoenician ships visited Miletus, the Chaldice, Corinth, the Peloponesse (Troizen) and Heraklion in Crete, and Phoenicians merchants settled in these areas. This Phoenician connection had an impact on the development of the Greek Alphabet, upon Greek Art and upon Greek mythology. The struggle between Zeus and Typhon mirrored that between Ba'al Hadad and Lawtan (Hebrew between El and Leviathan). The three way division of the world, between Zeus and his thunderbolts, Poseidon and the oceans and Hades as death, was modelled upon that of Ba'al Hadad, Yam (God of the Sea), and Mot, (God of Death). These innovations were not found in earlier Mycenaean times, but occurred at the end of the Greek Dark Age, when the extension of Phoenician trade brought new prosperity to the Aegean.

Heraklion gets its name from Herakles, or Hercules, and part of this Phoenician heritage lies in the story of Hercules, whose name means "the Glory of Hera" a form of the Mycenaean Goddess "Potnia" (mistress), worshipped at nearby Knossos. When Hera was increasingly identified with Phoenician Astarte, so Hercules/Herakles was identified with Phoenician Melkart (Phoenician = King of the city). Temples to Melkart in Phoenicia had 2 standing pillars at their entrance, and such a pillar cult is associated with Solomon's temple, built by Tyrians. Small Phoenician temples have been found in Greece, associated with sites of Phoenician settlements, where the pillar cult seems to have fitted easily within earlier Mycenanean ideas where the "pillar cult" or Kapita (hence Capitol), seems to have been associated with Keftiu (Egyptian for Crete).

With the relocation of the story of Hercules from Crete Keraklion to Mycenae, the rivalry between Hera and Herakles seems to have become a dominant feature of the myth, and Alcmene replaced Hera as the heroes mother. The 12 labours of Herakles became a dominant part of his story, taking him ever further afield. Herakles is suupposed to have travelled to the ends of the Earth, and the Pillars of Herakles travelled with him. Firstly away from the straits of Laconia (between the Peloponnesse and Crete, to the Straits of Messina in Magna Grecia, to the straits between Malta and Gozo, to the gap between Corsica and Sardinia, and ultimately to the Straits of Gibraltar (as a result perhaps of the association of the Phoenician Melkart temples in these locations - eg at Gades). Thus the Pillars of Herakles measured the extension of Greek knowledge about their world.

The association of the Pillars of Hercules with the Atlantic, comes from the association of Hercules with Atlas, the Mountains of North Africa, and the Garden of the Hesperides, located on the edge of the known world. As the Greeks came to appreciate the Mediterranean was a landlocked Ocean, so Oceanus, the world encircling ocean was displaced beyond the Mediterranean, as a result of Greek colonization of Marsailles and Spain. The Atlantic Ocean, probably originally the Western Mediterranean along the Atlas Coast, was displaced into the Atlantic, beyond the Straits of Gibraltar, associated from Classical Times with the Pillars.John D. Croft (talk) 20:13, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Sheer nonsense

Amongst others, the two southward pointing headlands on each side of the Gulf of Laconia were "pillars of Hercules".[4] Support for this Peloponnesian location for the pillars comes from Medinet Habu in Egypt, dating to 1,200 BCE, which describes the Sea Peoples invading from the islands of the north "from the pillars of heaven", by which the Egyptians meant the ends of the earth as they knew [5]

- 5 is from Castledon who does not provide a source himself. Even if it is true it has nothing to do with the pillars of Heracles. I can also find no source for the pillars of Heracles being the Gulf of Laconia, other than Castledon on the same page. He also provides no source. 4 is the wrong source, which someone seems to have taken from Castledon's bibliography.HydraGreek (talk) 23:41, 28 February 2016 (UTC)

Beyond the Pillars of Heracles - Timaeus, Plato quote

The original article said Plato described Atlantis as beyond the Pillars of Hercules/Heracles, in effect placing it in the “Unknown”, but that is unverifiable original research, as no sources are given for that opinion, and if you read the passage (Timaeus) where Atlantis is described, it is not in the “Unknown”, in fact it is described clearly as, or next to, a continent that encompasses the Atlantic Ocean.

So I removed the speculation about the Unknown, and, before I found out the rules about speculation, I added some of my own, saying that the quote possibly describes the continents of America. This was removed, and I quickly accepted that, so instead I added the direct quote from Plato, which directly fits the article, is very informative and allows people to make up their own minds on what they think he was talking about. However, this continues to be removed for original research, despite it being a literal quote from Plato. Not only that, but the editors repeatedly add back the original research about it being “the Unknown”.

To summarise: Removed speculation about the Unknown Added pertinent, direct Plato quote Removed for original research by editors, who add the speculation back.

I just can’t see how a clarifying Plato quote on the topic of the Pillars of Heracles, in that section of the article can be removed, and replaced with the thing they claim to have removed it for. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AndrewKkh (talk • contribs) 18:12, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

We both know that the motive behind adding this quote is to promote a personal (?) or at least fringe theory that Plato knew about America. [1] I think it is an improper use of a WP:PRIMARY source, as it changes the article's interpretation of Plato from just being a literary device to place Atlantis in the realm of the Unknown, to making it seem like an actual place is meant. But yes, the "Unknown" statement is unsourced, and it should have one. That is an issue. Nonetheless, using a selected quote from Plato to imply a certain meaning is improper. While the edit-warring case was flawed (my bad), the admin did leave some of the things they said to you without a strikethrough. Those things you should keep in mind. And I did not see this discussion when I reported you, and I am busy so it does take time to respond. Hoping other editors, perhaps Doug Weller, can weigh in. -Crossroads- (talk) 04:13, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

It is not a selected quote to imply anything. It is a direct quote from Plato, mentioning the Pillars of Hercules, and Atlantis! You can not argue with its relevance, and it’s hard to argue the fact that it brings clarity to area of literary devices and unknownness. If it was a phrased in a certain way, or edited, or preceded by an implying note, then you would be correct, but it is a ridiculous assertion that an unqualified quote from Plato on the topic is being used to imply something untoward. People are not stupid. They can read and make their own judgments. That is the idea of Wikipedia. Present the facts, do nothing else. You’re not even allowing me to present the facts.

Whether or not you think it implies Plato knew about America doesn’t matter; it’s a completely relevant, clarifying, direct quotation that you have no right or reason to remove.

In all the editing and unjust reporting you’ve done, I haven’t seen a single piece of evidence that you have actually read the quote yourself. Since the quote is the heart of the matter, I would appreciate it if you read it before you reply.

If it says something you don’t like, take it up with Plato.

AndrewKkh (talk) 09:25, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

And you have no right to keep it there. You need a consensus. Being able to verify something is necessary for it to be in an article but not a sufficient reason. Doug Weller talk 09:35, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

Well that’s convenient, considering apparently this article appears to be edited by a cartel of two. Neither of whom will actually read the quote, or its source, and just dismiss it because they think it has something to do with “fringe theories”. There’s a serious amount of bureaucracy going on here. You know how I know that? Because neither of you have even once mentioned the contents of the article, or the contents of the quote. Wikipedia is for providing information to people. When discussing information being added, the conversation should not only be about how it is done, or what rules may be necessary to uphold - this isn’t stack exchange. The conversation should be about the actual information.

So please. Read the quote and tell me why you think it isn’t relevant, useful information. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AndrewKkh (talk • contribs) 10:00, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

I've edited the article to remove the 'unknown' bit. It might be appropriate in the Atlantis article, but an 82 word quote would have to be a blockquote and it would be the only one in the article giving it undue emphasis, particularly as the article as I say isn't about Atlantis. By the way, you need to read WP:AGF and drop the 'cartel' bit. Note also that a 3rd editor, another Administrator, decided it was necessary to protect the article temporarily, stopping unconfirmed editors from editing - you'll be out of that status soon. Doug Weller talk 16:24, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

AndrewKkh, please add me to the list of "Cartel" members who are conspiring against you, because I support Doug Weller's edit.[2] You say that "The conversation should be about the actual information", so please do that rather than engaging in personal attacks. What, exactly, is wrong with Doug Weller's edit? Is it his calling Atlantis fictional that you object to? You may find my essay at WP:1AM to be helpful. Also, I think you mean "Cabal", nor Cartel". --Guy Macon (talk) 16:35, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

According to Diodorus Siculus

I would like to point out that Diodorus Siculus does not say anything about the Straight of Gibraltar as mentioned in this article with the reference "Diodorus 4.18.5". He actually mentions that Heracles arrived near Gadeira (Cádiz) "where he set up two pillars one each of the two continents" (Bibliotheca historica, Book IV 18.2).

The Straight of Gibraltar is obviously never mentioned (it would be anachronistic) and the actual geographical location of the pillars is near Cádiz (which is not near Gibraltar).

This article should be updated accordingly for sake of accuracy.

ICE77 (talk) 02:10, 29 November 2019 (UTC)