Talk:Perplexities after Escher

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Classical music, which aims to improve, expand, copy edit, and maintain all articles related to classical music, that are not covered by other classical music related projects. Please read the guidelines for writing and maintaining articles. To participate, you can edit this article or visit the project page for more details.Classical musicWikipedia:WikiProject Classical musicTemplate:WikiProject Classical musicClassical music

Germany

	Germany portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Germany, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Germany on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.GermanyWikipedia:WikiProject GermanyTemplate:WikiProject GermanyGermany
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.

A fact from Perplexities after Escher appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 12 December 2024 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that Perplexities after Escher, a composition for heckelphone, string quartet and double bass, is based on five graphic artworks by M. C. Escher?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2024/December. The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Perplexities after Escher.

Wikipedia

This article was created or improved during WikiProject Europe's "European 10,000 Challenge", which started on November 1, 2016, and is ongoing. You can help out!

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by AirshipJungleman29 talk 15:22, 5 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

(

Comment or view
Article history

)

~~... that Perplexities after Escher, a composition for heckelphone, string quartet and double bass, is based on five graphic artworks by M. C. Escher, including Kringloop?~~ Source: [1]
- ALT1: ... that Perplexities after Escher is a composition for heckelphone, string quartet and double bass that was premiered 120 years after the heckelphone was introduced? Source: [2]
- Reviewed: Apricot dress of Jacqueline Bouvier Kennedy

Created by Gerda Arendt (talk). Number of QPQs required: 1. Nominator has 2125 past nominations.

Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:11, 10 November 2024 (UTC).[reply]

Will leave this to another reviewer, but a shortened version of ALT1 would probably be a good option:

ALT2 ... that Perplexities after Escher, a composition for the heckelphone, was composed to commemorate the instrument's 120th anniversary?

ALT2a ... that Perplexities after Escher, a composition for the heckelphone, was composed for the instrument's 120th anniversary?

ALT2b ... that Perplexities after Escher, a composition for the heckelphone, was composed as part of the instrument's 120th anniversary celebrations?

Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 14:48, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

After giving this some thoughts, I've struck the original hook and ALT1. The original hook is unlikely to be perceived as interesting to those who are not specialists in classical music or art, and the second hook's wording is a bit weird and its point is probably better expressed by the ALT2 variations. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 15:13, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know what your "some thoughts" were. The fact that this music is not for heckelphone alone, but for an interesting group of chamber musicians, including double bass - these poor people otherwise have just the Trout Quintet - is key to the music, and being able to see one of the inspiring images has nothing to do with classical music, and looking at pictures is no "specialist knowledge in art", to my understanding, but something that children can do. Therefore I actually prefer ALT0. The 120 years seems rather of "specialist" interest, no? Who cares if 110 or 130? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:38, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. ALT0 is a good hook. I've asked for it to be restored below. Viriditas (talk) 09:09, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Narutolovehinata5: I think you may have been a little quick to dismiss ALT0, perhaps because of your previous experience with Gerda's hooks. I think ALT0 is far from obscure as you describe it; Escher has high name recognition in the US and Europe, and the fact that there's a classical composition based on five of his art works is about as interesting as it gets. I would therefore ask you to restore ALT0. Viriditas (talk) 09:07, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I propose a rebooted ALT0 as ALT0a below:

ALT0a ... that Perplexities after Escher, a composition for heckelphone, string quartet and double bass, is based on five graphic artworks by M. C. Escher?

Thank you. I add the link to the specific image especially for those general readers who (inspite of the bestseller Gödel, Escher, Bach) would not immediately recognize Escher. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:48, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

ps: I wonder about the copyright of that image. Could we perhaps even include it? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:50, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We could leave the final choice to the reviewer, but for what it's worth, saying that ALT0/ALT0a works because Escher is well-known in those regions could come off as Western-centric or a case of systemic bias. Not all regions in the world are familiar with him, and I imagine that while he might be well known among art circles there, among the general public perhaps not as much. Just speaking from a non-American or non-European perspective here (or to be specific, an Asian perspective). I also suspect that, regardless, the Escher angle will be less likely to get readership interest as it's somewhat more specialist than the alternative (the main point of the hook requiring knowing who Escher is). Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 13:05, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

See M.C. Escher's Legacy: A Centennial Celebration (2007)[2003] ISBN 978-3-540-28849-7: Exhibitions in 1998, the centennial year of his birth, "were held in Brazil, Mexico, The Czech Republic, Hong Kong, Great Britain, China, Greece, Italy, Argentina, Canada, Holland, and Peru." (83) "The Japanese artist Shigeo Fukuda built an accurate model of Escher's Belvedere". (229) However, at the same time, the NYT tried to deny Escher any legitimacy in the artworld, claiming he was a "nonartist" outside of niche circles of mathematicians, physicists, crystallographers, visual perception experts, and of course, psychedelic adventurers. (p. V, see "Smith, Roberta, "Just a Nonartist in the Art World, But Endlessly Seen and Cited," The New York Times, January 21, 1998, E1, E3.) Why the NYT has a habit of making such crazy, overtly false statements is anyone's guess (their downplaying of famous historical events like the Holocaust is well known, doubly ironic since Sulzberger, their publisher, was Jewish). Viriditas (talk) 21:45, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There is a link to Escher, and one to heckelphone. People able to click on a link will then know who Escher and when the heckelphone was introduced. To tell people when the heckelphone was introduced as practically the only information of a hook seems pretty senseless to me, the longer I think about it. It's about music, no? - Kindly unstrike ALT0 and leave it to a reviewer. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:14, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

For what it's worth, I just did an informal survey over at Discord and most of the responses did say they're familiar with him, so there's that and appears that I'm mistaken. We can probably leave ALT0a as an option for the reviewer, but ALT0 still has extra details and we'd rather avoid those whenever possible. Regardless of Escher, WP:DYKTRIM remains relevant. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 14:22, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

With several ALT hooks proposed, a new reviewer is needed to evaluate the article, ensure the hooks are approved, and give comments on which they think are the most interesting. Z1720 (talk) 15:19, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

The article is new enough (at the time of nomination) and long enough for DYK. It is appropriately sourced, free from copyvio or other issues, and the tone is appropriately encyclopedic. It's also a fascinating article! QPQ has been done. The hook - ALT0a - works well, and presents a really nice teaser that will draw in the reader.[reply]