Talk:Pan-African flag

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NPOV

A flag must represent the standard by which its people live. Thus, the Universal African Flag, the 52nd Article of the Declaration of Rights of the Negro Peoples of the World was ratified in convention.

There has been a great deal of talk and controversy over the origin, creation and use of the Red, Black and Green. The UNIA hopes that this controversy can be clarified once and for all.

There was no Red, Black and Green Flag prior to the coming of the Honorable Marcus Garvey and the founding of the UNIA. Today there are many African Nations that have adopted the colors Red, Black and Green after the great Marcus Garvey and his program of African Redemption. Any one claiming the creation of the Red, Black and Green is historically incorrect. The UNIA organization will make every attempt to clear up any misunderstandings about the matter concerning the Red, Black and Green. Further confusion can be misleading to the masses of Blacks throughout the country and the world.

Those sound like quotes; in which case they should be noted as such and sourced. Otherwise, ought to be reworded to be more neutral. E.g. removing adjectives such as "great Marcus Garvey", and citing why "Anyone claiming the creation of the Red, Black and Green" is incorrect, beyond the claims of UNIA. Or for that matter, mentioning who else is claiming the creation of it. --Mairi 02:51, 21 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

A large portion of this article is indeed quoted directly from this page of the UNIA web site. I'm not sure about the copyright implications of that, but I'd think it would be best to just rewrite this stuff from more of a neutral point of view. Otherwise, it should be made much clearer (there's a " at the beginning, but that's not good enough!)

--Oolong 13:43, 13 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I agreed so much with the above remarks by Mairi and Oolong that I went ahead and did the rewrite, deleting material that had copyright implications, was redundant, non-germane, non-encyclopedic style, or excessively POV. Added sections on similar flags and most importantly, on the other names for this flag. Left in relevant Marcus Garvey quote which has hardcopy citation. Added more historical info and citations. -- Lisasmall 19:13, 31 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Requested Move

I feel strongly that this article should be moved to the name Pan-African Flag as the current title, Red, black and green flag is neither its name, nor a phrase most people would use to look it up. It's just a poorly-punctuated takeoff on the Red, White, and Blue, fine as a nickname of course but not suitable for an encyclopedia title. UNIA flag would not be my choice, because though UNIA originated the flag, it is known much more widely as the Pan-African flag or Black Liberation flag. Pan-African flag does not currently exist as an article; Black Liberation flag redirects to Red, black and green flag. I requested Pan-African flag rather than Black Liberation flag because the PAF use seems to be more current, and more reflective of:

the current international use of the Pan-African flag by post-colonial African nations, and
the shift in focus in the U.S. from Black Liberation per se to identification with all African-heritage peoples, both in Africa and in diaspora.

However, if there are strong feelings favoring Black Liberation flag over Pan-African flag, I would not object. Please add your thoughts in Discussion section below Survey. -- Lisasmall 19:13, 31 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Survey

Add Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~

Support I requested the move, see above. -- Lisasmall 19:13, 31 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose The article was intended to dispel some of the myths surrounding the flag. It was from its inception the red, black and green. Because it has been popularly misnomered as the Pan-African flag only leads to even more confusion. Da Stressor 01:11, 19 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

Add any additional comments, then sign your opinion with ~~~~

This was an unobstructed move, so I was bold and made the move myself, as virtually any registered user could have done. It's nice to ask, but there's no specific need to vote on unobstructed moevs like this. :-) ⇒ BRossow ^T/_C 21:15, 31 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, BRossow, I'm just too new and timid to be bold just yet. I appreciate the guidance. -- Lisasmall 02:55, 2 April 2006 (UTC) [reply]

The Red, Black and Green flag is well-known as the red black and green by those who know...those who don't know...don't know...the flag has been immortalized in songs beginning with Ethiopia the land of our Fathers, Red, Black and Green by Roy Ayers and another song with the same title by Dead Prez. The Letter from Atlanta Prison (aka the Whirlwind Speech) by Marcus Garvey explicitly refers to the flag as the Red, Black and Green. It was originally identified as such in the Declaration of Rights of the Negro Peoples of the World in 1920. Any subsequent use does not invalidate its orgins. Therefore, I am "Boldly" returning the Red, Black and Green to its original topic and redirecting Pan-African flag here since obviously there is no source for its origin as the "Pan-African flag" but there is a definite source for red, black and green. That way anyone who looks for it under Pan-African flag can learn its real name.--Da Stressor 01:21, 19 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- The problem with your bold move back is that it was a copy-paste move, and so didn't preserve history. Given that, I've reverted the move. If you want it moved, request a move, don't just copy-paste. Mairi 04:55, 19 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I've undone the last move, as there was clearly no consensus for it, and also move-protected the page. —Nightst a llion (?) 22:40, 15 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Green

I've heard it said that the green stands for Ireland, because the UNIA identified their struggle for freedom with the struggle for independence of the Irish people, which was happening at the same time (i.e. 1920). Any truth to this? EamonnPKeane (talk) 00:02, 20 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Libya

What exactly is wrong with saying that the Flag of Libya is similar. It is far more similar than some of the other flags in the "Similar Flags" catagory. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.237.73.144 (talk) 07:15, 12 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

There are many flags around the world which contain the red, black and green colours featured in the Pan-African flag. That alone does not make them Pan-African flags. It's whether or not those flags were conceived as Pan-African that determines whether or not they are Pan-African flags, and thus relevant to the section. As such, the new flag of Libya is not Pan-African since it is a re-adoption of the old flag of the Kingdom of Libya, which was in use from 1951 to 1969. That's the period just before Gaddafi seized power in the 1969 coup. The flag's representative colors also hold different meanings. Middayexpress (talk) 12:13, 12 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Then perhaps "similar flags" is a poor choice for the heading as it merely implies that the flags are similar, which the Libyan Flag certainly is. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Xuberfail (talk • contribs) 09:24, 17 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The same could be said for hundreds of other flags since the Libyan flag is only similar in color, definitely not in conception. The original Kingdom of Libya flag itself was actually largely based on the flag of Cyrenaica, which in turn was identical to and taken from the earlier banner of the Senussi dynasty that was founded in the first half of the 19th century in Mecca. Middayexpress (talk) 18:18, 17 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

'Derivative flags' was a good choice.

Citation

There is a distinct lack of citations in this article. A lot of important information, such as the colour meanings, is uncited. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Xuberfail (talk • contribs) 01:50, 19 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

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Malawi 2010–2012 flag

Would the Malawi 2010–2012 flag be considered a derivative flag? Mcstove (talk) 15:29, 31 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 21 June 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus (non-admin closure) Calidum 04:24, 11 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Pan-African flag → Red Black and Green flag – Pan-African flag is ambiguous, revisionist, and cites no sources to support it referencing the Red, Black and Green. Beginning August 13, 1920 the Declaration of the Rights of the Negro Peoples of the World referred to Red, Black and Green. Among the articles will be found Declaration 39 which states as follows: "That the colors, Red, Black and Green, be the colors of the African race."

The Universal Negro Catechism defines the Red, Black and Green as:

“Red is the color of the blood which men must shed for their redemption and liberty”, black for “the color of the noble and distinguished race to which we belong,” and green for “the luxuriant vegetation of our Motherland.”

Nowhere does the Catechism mention a "Pan-African flag." In fact it seems the name "Pan-African flag" is a revisionist neologism in that the history of the flag up until recent years has never used such a term to the Red, Black and Green.

The article Pan-African colours presents a diametrically opposed view of the subject to this article. It indicates Red Black and Green are NOT the Pan-African colors.

Powered by the Human Spirit Mhotep (talk) 01:17, 22 June 2019 (UTC) --Relisting. — Newslinger talk 06:26, 6 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose the current proposal, but amenable to other options. The Pan-African colours article was heavily modified within the last year or so to represent the idea that red/gold/green is the "true" Pan-African flag, so I wouldn't take that too seriously. That said, it's not clear based on the current article that this flag is the Pan-African flag either - it's possible that Black Liberation flag or the like would work better instead. SnowFire (talk) 06:49, 27 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment. Would just merging these two articles together work, Mhotep? A single overview article on both flags? SnowFire (talk) 21:56, 6 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support the current proposal. the current title is not in keeping with Wikipedia title policy. Recognizability – People familiar with this subject will recognize right away to what it refers. Naturalness – Any reader who is not looking for Red, Black and Green is probably not searching for this article. Any editor who is thinking of the subject of this article who knows the facts about the RBG must know that its most significant attributes are the fact that it is Red, Black and Green. This title is what the flag was called in English from the very beginning. Precision – "The title unambiguously identifies the article's subject and distinguishes it from other subjects." Nuff said. Conciseness – "The title is no longer than necessary to identify the article's subject and distinguish it from other subjects." Consistency – The title is consistent with the pattern of similar articles' titles. Many of these patterns are listed (and linked) as topic-specific naming conventions on article titles, in the box above. See Black Star Line, Negro World and Declaration of Rights of the Negro People of the World — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mhotep (talk • contribs) 00:29, 5 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- Note to closer: This is the nominator. Mhotep, you don't need to vote on your own proposal, and if you do anyway, call it out explicitly ("support as nominator"). SnowFire (talk) 13:11, 6 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Comment – why are we not seeing any presentation of evidence of what this flag is called in modern English-language sources? Dicklyon (talk) 03:23, 6 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.